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Yep, you've been had. The wool was pulled over your eyes. It was a con, a scam. You are right to be angry. But at least you can see it now.
I don't know what you can do about it, except let your feelings out here. You are not going to get any kind of refund or apology. You might get some satisfaction if you can contribute to pulling down his empire. I think all else you can do is to keep your eyes open.
His isn't the only scam going on. In many ways, he is small fry. The world is full of bullshit and con artists, often the worst of them being the 'sincere' one, the politicians. Then there are the astrologers and all kinds of fortune tellers, lots of sellers of 'financial products', the fashion industry, the whole consumerist thing ( Rawat was right that our modern consumerism doesn't lead to happiness - but was he listening to himself?? ), second hand car salesmen... It's a rough old world, and there can't be anyone alive who hasn't been had. There are a lot of people in the UK who have been paying into pension funds all the lives who won't be getting much back, and people paying for endowment policies that won't pay off their mortgage as they were promised. They too have wasted a lot of time, money and effort. And all that is just a very much western perspective. There are people all over the world who have had their land taken, their water, their children, you name it.
While we are right to be angry with Rawat, I don't think our position is so unique, and though we might have spent our time far more productively than chasing Rawat round the world and gazing into our navels, we'd probably have been fools enough to fall into some other hole.
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Hi StephenMy own opinion is that many (most?) premies who leave do so too quickly and too glibly - meaning that there is still a lot of unresolved stuff in them that gets buried and repressed. Hey, this was not an ordinary love affair we had, this was a love affair with the Lord of the Universe! We tried to give ourselves to him completely, surrender the reins of our life to him, surrender to the Lotus Feet. This is deep stuff - you don't just walk away from that casually with a shrug of the shoulders - 'oh well, that didn't work, what's next?' My own experience is that Maharaji is in a devoted premie deep-down, at a somatic level even - he is in our muscles and our body. Of course we have to intellectually arrive at the conclusion that he is not the Lord etc, but for many that is just the start. I was talking to an ex-premie recently, who has long since left Maharaji as a mental belief-system. She was talking about a meditation practice involving the breath (nothing to do with Knowledge) and was saying how even in her breath Maharaji was still there - not literally in her breath, I assume, but more that it triggered unresolved emotions that were buried in her psyche and that she had ignored till then. To answer your two specific questions, no you are not going nuts. You are going through a healthy phase, of you (both body and mind) trying to purge some long-hidden feelings and expel them. Any advice? That's harder to answer. My own experience is that it is a painful process to go through. But painful in the sense that an emetic or purgative medicine is painful, or that a hangover is painful (the liver working overtime to get that poison out of the system). In other words, a healthy pain, the pain of healing. How you personally go through it and deal with it, I don't know - that is individual. I have now done so, and yes it was painful, but the sweetness of living in the clear air again, the dropping of a heavy load, makes it worth it. In fact, you have no option, since once all that old crap has got stirred up, and you now know it is there, there is no going back! You can't compact it and cover it up again. That is one of the values of this Forum, and writing or journaling your experiences. People say that the same posts and arguments are re-hashed endlessly on this Forum. But that is only a small part of its value. Its real value is to enable people to engage at a deeper level - you can say that you only know what you really feel, or at least that your feelings become precise, when you articulate them in writing or speech. Why don't you write your journey on EPO? It is very cathartic, whether you actually submit it and have it up there in public or not - just the writing of it is cathartic. And of course read and write here on this Forum from time to time; that will help not just you, but many others in your position. There are many *many* more who read this Forum than who post here. Good luck, and remember you are amongst friends here. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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"I was talking to an ex-premie recently, who has long since left Maharaji as a mental belief-system. She was talking about a meditation practice involving the breath (nothing to do with Knowledge) and was saying how even in her breath Maharaji was still there - not literally in her breath, I assume, but more that it triggered unresolved emotions that were buried in her psyche and that she had ignored till then."
Stephen, what Mike says above makes sense. This is imprinting. The notion of imprinting comes from Konrad Lorenz who studied the behaviour of ducklings when they hatched. He discovered that baby ducks would imprint a mother figure in the first day or so of life. They did that by sorting for movement, so that if something moved just after they hatched from their eggs, they followed it and it "became" their mother. Lorenz would move and they would follow.
Lorenz found later that if he reintroduced them to their real mother later, they would ignore her and continue to follow him. In the morning when he got up, he would go outside and find the ducklings curled up around his boots instead of in their own nest.
He once reported that a ping pong ball rolled by one of the eggs when it hatched and the emerging duckling imprinted to the ping pong ball, making it the "mother". Later in life, the duck would shun others of its own species at mating time and try to mount various kinds of round things. Konrad Lorenz and his colleagues believed that imprints were established at certain neurologically critical periods and that once the critical periods had passed, whatever had been "imprinted" was permanent and not subject to change.
Timothy Leary investigated the imprint phenomenon in human beings. He maintained that the human nervous system was more sophisticated than that of ducklings and other animals. He established that under the proper conditions, content that had been imprinted at earlier critical periods could be accessed and reprogrammed or re-imprinted.
Give it time Stephen. You are the boss. Your breath is yours alone.
Modified by Steve at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 13:29:41
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That's a beautiful post Mike. Thanks.
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....While I walked away, in part, before many even began this hell!, I did not escape, I was surrounded by premies and dragged (almost literally) to programs (for decades) that in my heart I dreaded. For at least 30 years now, my heart has sunk, each time another venue was announced (my hidden shame).
....I watched as its (the latest program venue's) devastating effect spread all over the community, my friends, and family, but in the end had to go with them or lose them. Then I would try to be a good premie and listen for non-existant pearls.
....That was the problem for me; tho' the knowledge was not my life; premies were. I am bound to you all, in ways I cannot, at this time explain, and am in no way over it.
.... I have sat with my arms around my knees and shivered, almost afraid to sleep, lest my true feelings be spoken in my dreams. This has been my inner posture for well more than thirty years.
....To this day premies surround me, they are my ex-inlaws, the parents at the school, they are; or were; my best mates. They cross over to the other side of the street, if they see me in town.
....Their posters show up on the college noticeboard, they have come round my house, uninvited! They make up songs and sing them at me, with hidden, scoffing, chastising lyrics sewn into the verses.
....For myself, I feel past anger, I am sad, a cowed dog, watchful, afraid, clinging to life by instinct rather than any actual desire to go on sometimes.
....But when I read posts like Stephen's I am filled with compassion and rage! I am filled with a passion for helping my fellow man like the brave young seeker I once was, so long, long ago, only now I am really angry, because, now, I have no answers, not even phoney, contrived ones!
....I only know I had to be sitting, typing here today, through my tears, and thank Stephen for precipitating my anger.
....For the sake of our innocent souls, for our friends still trapped, for the innocents who have not heard m's warped and twisted message, but who shine with a love of life and a healthy curiosity to know its workings, who may, so easily fall into his clutches... I am seething with anger and hopelessness at the same time.
....Thankyou again for your posting StephenB ... I too ... have realised, since posting here, that there is much stuff, unresolved, beneath the surface, but there is a rising sense of duty; the feeling that much work is still to be done.
....Posting is a focal point.. I am so grateful for every one of you, your wisdom, your knowledge of our universe, your literary awareness, your kindness, your anger, your sadness......YOUR HUMANITY.
....The first signs I saw long years ago that m/k wasn't working, was seeing how it changed premies for the worse. I have so many hundreds of times seen decent people (self included) turn into selfish, arrogant, compassionless automatons.
.... By their fruits ye shall know them. From my perspective; from the very beginning, DLM/EV etc. always looked a bit like a forest fire, getting bigger, worse, and more out of control inexorably.
....I didn't realise where the rot really was, I thought it was correctable. I was so naive; I argued, tried to persuade them (premies, staff, mahatmas, even his family!) on what seemed appropriate policy. I was exiled and removed from history. (A blessing.)
....Occasionally my skills were used, ending up in some intensive episodes of weeks long, round the clock service, only to be dumped, like debris, once I was all used up.
....I have been and still am alone. My marriage failed (obviously), Even now, you (collectively) are all the community I have...
love and empathy
lp
Modified by LP at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 09:03:42
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i so know what you are going through and i send love
what has really helped me is checking out what c0-dependency is
i can now see hope and joy for the future with out an ego-maniac in the middle. i was such a victim, as we all were and learning about co-dependency has really helped. I am responsible for me now and i can face the results of choices i made. we fell in love with something that was never attainable and because it wasn't attainable it didn't work so we blamed ourselves so we hadn't a hope in hell. this can be got over but it takes time to learn to trust ourselves. remember all you have been thru in your life and pat yourself on the back, you must be strong to have survived. the rage will go and the pain will go. mike finch said to me "you picked a cult, you could have been at waco, move on" and i was so grateful to him for that because it could have been worse
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Hi flick, nice to hear from you, and to know that you understand. Thanks for the tip, I'm looking into subject of codependency: (Is the 7 Jewels of Codependency (Robert F. Willard Ph.D.and Michael Gilbertini Ph.D.) a good book to start from?).
Modified by LP at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 15:19:26
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Hi LP,Thank you for your post - it was very heartfelt, and honest, and reminded me that it takes *courage*, sometimes a lot of courage, to face up to the fact that we've been duped and lied to, and treated badly, for years and years. Although it can sometimes be painful, I know from experience that it does get better - and I feel that it's much healthier than living in a state of denial - because of the fear of honestly facing up to the truth. I expect there are premies who would rather bury their heads in the sand, and stay feeling comfortable with what they are familiar with, rather than reject Maharaji and expose themselves to the grieving process. Denial can sometimes be an easy option. I was really angry at first too. In fact, I was OUTRAGED!! Thankfully the anger didn't last too long, but I agree - it is very healthy and normal. This forum really helped me a lot, especially in the early days of ex-ing. It helped me to get my head around it all. I was, at first, in two minds about everything that I discovered on epo, and I tried to convince myself that M really was the Lord and epo was just some terrible mistake, and that there was a good explanation for all the damning information there. I wanted a happy ending! Epo just had to be wrong - because, if it was right, it would mean that M was just another misguided, drunken, greedy, self-serving, abusive con-artist. (But I agree with Mike Finch, that on some level M really believes that he is the perfect master.) When I first read here - a few years ago - it was just to prove to myself that everything was really okay, and that this was just the 'hate' site that EV had warned me about. But instead it had the complete opposite effect. The posters were (and are) honest and sincere, intelligent and articulate. The many discussions about M made so much sense to me, and over time - perhaps about a year - I found the healing process was greatly assissted by reading here. I've said this before, and I'll say it again : Thank you! - to every poster that contributes to this forum 
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Hi Stardust, thankyou for your kind reply, this place is so real, that my home feels different now, I am living in the world again, and am always aware of the forum. The planet feels like home again too, for truly, there have been times when there was not a patch of dirt that did not feel alien to me during these last years.
When I gave up on m it was as if I gave up hope of feeling the good things he promised also. The whole world turned cold, dry and dark, even the sun's light seemed dull and unsustaining. But this was preferable to giving support to something I knew without a shadow of doubt to be harmful to humankind.
I agree, (I'm glad you raised this point),.. I don't think maharaji is always aware of the very definite deception in his process.. It is a system that has evolved over many generations and has no doubt been added to by every greedy trick, some possibly discovered by accident, that has evolved this one way trap over centuries.
I think it likely, that at times, particularly in the days when the grounds and halls rang with thunderous bhole shris that maharaji fully believed himself, (for those minutes at least) to be divine.. But equally, I'm sure, there are times when he must have had serious doubts.
These were his moments of truth. When he was younger he could have done the decent thing, like Krishnamurti, and renounced the whole divine thing. He might then have said he had been misled by his upbringing, while he was young and impressionable.
He might still have gained respect for that and been admired as a speaker (like Km). But if that thought has crossed his mind (and I'm sure it has since his drinking began after the astrodome stay-down), Then it's my guess he chose to take the money. The rapid decline in his integrity only confirms my feeling.
Now that he is middle aged and completely responsible for his choices, it is too late. He has shown the world his true colours. His real intention he cannot say, and his message grows so weak , it might just as well be, "I'll fly around and you do the rest of what it takes to keep the money coming in, and maintain my image and life style".
Whatever he now thinks he is, he still thinks he deserves everything, while we deserve to know a mildly interesting old hindu idea about a link between breath and God, and have nothing. I digress..
I also looked over EPO some years ago, for a time but could not pluck up the nerve to post. I felt fearful of getting drawn into negativity, as well as actual reprisals from local pwks, I think, rather than any doubt in my disgust with m's religion.
In order to get the buried stuff moving and out of our life, I now see posting on this forum as an essential process in healing the many areas of damage to our minds and emotional bodies. The courage is a part of it too.
I have had to come to terms within, with feeling alone, but whole and complete in the physical universe without knowing for sure; nor caring, if anything else (spiritual) existed.
Yet to register and start typing one's first post on the forum was a scary moment, and a liberating one.
Once again Stardust, thanks.
lp
Modified by LP at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 18:54:06
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Well said Stephen. The man Rawat hooked himself into your breathing, your senses, and your emotional heart. Your reaction seems proportional to me. What ever it was about yourself that made his offer appealing to you when you bought in, that is the starting point for really getting out. Good luck. This is deceptively deep stuff. Bryn
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Stephen, You're not going nuts. What you're feeling is normal, but feels awful nontheless. You may not think so, but what you're feeling is healthy. It won't last forever. There are many wonderful people who have studied cults/new religious movements, as well as former cult members. They understand what happens to people upon leaving, and they also understand when someone like you has a long, overdue, delayed reaction to leaving. What happened to you this week is that you wrote here and became emotionally triggered, and now you are having a flood of emotion. That's normal, too. An important thing is to know you are not alone. Please continue to post about how you feel. Like Mike said, writing about it is a tremendous release. Plus, we do understand how you feel. Tomorrow you may feel very sad, full of grief, because of the lost part of your youth. It hurts, but again, won't last forever. Here's a website that I endorse for anyone coming out of a cult. It helped me because I learned what had happened to me as a premie, and also helped me to understand the feelings I was having coming out. http://www.refocus.org/ The article titled "Post cult trauma" was particularly helpful to me. http://www.refocus.org/postcult.html
Related link: reFocus
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 07:33:22
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Hi Stephen! Thanks for your honest feelings. It's my belief that what I've had to go through to get clear of this cult (and maybe am still dealing with to some extent) are not unlike the "five stages of grief" that Elizebeth Kubler-Ross discussed in her book On Death and Dying. Here they are: !. Denial (this isn't happening to me!) 2.Anger (why is this happening to me!) 3.Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...) 4. Depression (I don't care anymore) 5. Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes) This isn't a tidy process of course. I can see now that I was mostly in Denial, but feeling some Anger and doing some of the Bargaining too, even as a premie! Rawat himself certainly encouraged the bargaining part--"if you do this for me, then...", or "if you were a better premie, more devoted, more surrendered, etc., then..." --and here followed a long series of very empty promises, as I see it now. Being angry, once you finally see what a scam it was/is is very healthy, as many here suggest. It's VITAL to be angry for a while. And the anger's had to hit me several times, it seems, as well as the depression and feeling lost, before any true acceptance of where I was and what happened to me could be honestly felt. Learning about his $7 million luxury yacht was the final big drip for me that opened my eyes to the vast and obscene luxury in which this man lives, whilst most of the premies I knew, including myself, were struggling with decisions like--should I go to this program, or get some urgent dental care done? And did he care about that?! Manifestly not! Yes, I can still feel lots of anger about all this, but I know that I have a good life now, and am glad for the community of support here on epo, which, in my opinion, is a whole lot healthier than anything the cult had to offer. Any great loss seems to involve a combination of these various stages, and going back and forth between them until you get stronger and clearer for yourself. You are NOT crazy! What's crazy is what was done in the name of "enlightenment" by a very sick and greedy man, and the scared or manipulative sickos who still support him! I call it "endarkenment" now! Don't want it, thank you very much! Good luck with your process! You are not alone in this! ~Shelagh
Modified by shelagh at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 09:52:51
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StephenB,
Lots of great input above. Shelagh states it clearly. My only advice is to NOT push it. Don't try to skip the steps. Your anger is righteous and it is necessary, just like all of the other steps listed.One thing that helped me was to concentrate on the things that make your life wonderful. Reality is cool. It has its day-to-day issues, but it is cool, nonetheless. Don't dwell on the negatives. See them for what they are, but don't get consumed by them. To do so would add more waste, if you get my meaning. You need to look at them, you need to figure out how it happened, but you don't need to "dwell" on it. Dwelling is idling, remember...... and idling is probably not what you had in mind for yourself. You WILL get through this, StephenB, trust us all on that one. We've been there and we've done that, to one stage or another. We are here, on this forum, to give each other a hand and to expose the fraud. Welcome aboard! We await your input and your own wisdom. Beleive me, you will say something that is truely wise (to add to the ones you have already said). You cannot go through something this intense and devote yourself so completely to something and not learn anything from it or have things to pass on to others....... believe me, you possess some really great things. In time, you'll let us know those things
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Hi Stephen You are certainly not nuts, sane as the next person and doing just fine in my opinion. The anger is really very understandable, as others here have said, it will pass. Yes, the pandora's box is now open, the image will fade as you live your life free of the need to hold such images. Your stable situation you mention is what will help greatly getting through this difficult time, spend as much time as you can with your loving wife and daughters and your friends Your family and your friends are your strength, you are so right in placing value on them as you do. You may find the following post helpful in helping you cope. http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/f8archive/posts/5681.html Also the following extracts from Margeret Singer's 'Cults in our Midst' will help gain a better understanding on what happened. http://forum8.org/singer/ This all in addition to the very helpful suggestions and links others have given. Good luck with your journey, please continue sharing and posting here. I very much enjoyed reading your post from a few days ago. all the best T
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Hi Stephen, If the following sounds right to you, then it maybe wiorth paying attention to - and if doesn't - and there is no reason it should - ignore it. 1. Enraged - what to do ? Maybe nothing, at least not right away. Try living with how you currently feel, rage isn't an evil to be resisted or to be expunged, it is a normal human response. Of course it is a shock to suddenly experience rage 'from out of the blue' but by understanding that both the shock and the rage are part of you there is every chance that your experiences will be healthy and not at all harmful. 2. Life involves numerous failures on which to base a lesser number of successes - dropping into the 'guru trap' may not have been the smartest thing any of us did, but it was part of a process that we were unlikely to have been able to avoid. 3. Changing the past is of course not possible, but anger should be a spur to some kind of eventual action. Those of us who live in democratic, participatory societies have many options to bring what we believe to be wrong to the attention of a whole raft of authorities and elected representatives. We are able to just simply tell our story in a plethora of fora. We can if we choose work out our anger in numerous ways from whacking a small white ball around a golf course, to chopping wood, to stomping up and down hills and mountains. It's up to the individual to decide what is satisfying, what is productive and what answers the rage we very rightly feel for having nurtured something as poisonous as Rawatism. I'm glad that the bland wash of 'Knowledge' never robbed me of the capacity to be enraged by deceit and injustice. I'm happy to stay angry for a long, long time come. Nik
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Leaving aside the issue of any criticism of Prem Rawat having to come from hate, which as we know is a pretty key issue for them, there is also another angle I think.
The practice of knowledge after a long time thrives on that philosophy of only allowing 'positivity' in your life, and that anyone who embraces/explores anything to do with pain is just asking for a fall emotionally. I do wonder how much existential terror of life there must be for someone who tries to live like that long term.
I also suspect that when they see people then not falling, holding their lives together while they work through that pain, and still spending time in what they see as 'negativity' after they are through the pain by posting on these forums, then their motivation must be warped, by, by something. Floundering they then pick up on the Scientology 'haters' ting fot want of any other 'rational' in their eyes explanation.
And underlaying that is the assumption of how they think they would react if they left, to just walk and get on with their lives in the same 24/7 positivity
All speculation of course, but I do wonder.
Modified by hamzen at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 12:10:58
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Hi people! I received knowledge 25 years ago and left M. 10 years ago. I left and never came back. It was almost without pain because I gradually developed myself through critical thinking and curiosity. At the and I realised that my life did not depend on M and that he had nothing to do with my experiences of any kind. If you find and read "Bhagavad-Gita - As It Is" by Prabhupada as a first step. Starting with the right interpretation of Gita is very important because M comes from that tradition. Sooner or later you're going to understand that there is a personal transcendental God: in Hinduism Krishna, in Judaism Jahve, in Islam Allah.. He is the real source of life who gives love and mercy to every single creatures. When you sincerely realise that, you automatically stop following any kind of guru. I have no hard feelings towards M. because he is a victim too. Have a nice day Jazzman J
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No wonder it was almost without pain. The frying pan is as hot as the fire!
( edited by 13 - I missed the 'i' in pain! )
Modified by 13 at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 14:37:24
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Right on the money, 13. Trading fantasies should be pretty painless.
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Jazzman, you'd do much better reading Sam Harris' "The End of Faith" and rid yourself of such useless superstition.
Related link: http://www.samharris.org/
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That was absolutely terrible advice from Jazzman. "Transcendent Fantasy," would be more like it. Prahbupada.... now there was a master. The Billy Graham of Hinduism. I used to call him froggy. It wouldn't have surprised me for a single second if he had said, "Accept Krishna as your lord and personal savior."I've read AUTHORITATIVE translations of the Gita and his translation bears about as much relation to the real (secular expert) translations as the Jehovah's Witnesses (New World Translation) does to the real translations of the bible. BWHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA What a crock! Jazzman: Why do you think he (Froggy) doesn't have any real following in the birthplace of the Gita? Want a clue? Hindus who have been hindus all their lives (and their parents and grandparents, too) say froggy was an idiot. His translation is ALL wrong, from its first premise to it's last page. Funny that real hindus would say that, huh?
Modified by NAR at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 14:10:05
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NAR, The authoritative Gita would just be the best version of a set of lies and superstitions. It'd be like an "authoritative", original manuscript of the Book of
Mormon, or an unadulterated edition of Dianetics. It's all bullshit. None of it deserves any respect. (You can tell I'm really enjoying this "End of Faith" book!)
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Wow, a scolding on a book of fantasy..... haven't had one of those in awhile. I guess I should have been slightly more clear, maybe? LOL!I think you are just tweaking me, cuz you KNOW that I know it's all crud. It's just for jazzman to start speaking of froggy as if he were some authority..... I needed to address that one, in particular. His translation of the fantasy was just awful, compared to the translations of all other scholars who make their money by understanding language. Froggy was a toot! Same with the JW's..... they rewrote the book to match their belief system, plain and provable. Now, do either of those books contain anything worthwhile? THAT is a totally different question and I would, as you know, totally agree with you. But a crappy translation is a crappy translation.
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Hi NAR,
How about a justification of slaying your relatives? Or anybody for that matter.
According to the Gita, when two armies are lined up Arjuna spots some of his relatives in the opposing army and says to Krishna, something like, "Hey, there's my Uncle Fred and Uncle Sam from Bombay, and look, all my cousins. Shit Krishna. I can't kill them.They're really nice people. I went on holiday with them every summer."
Krishna replies with something along the lines of, "Listen- they have eternal souls right? They cant be killed right? So if you chop their heads off, you're not really killing them right? So get out there start fucking killing you dozy prat. I'm the boss, you're just the driver. Don't you forget that.You do what you're told. Fucking agya right?"
Reminds me of the respect the Old Testament shows for human life. It says, "If an ox kills someone, kill the ox and kill the owner of the ox". It's a good job atheists don't read the scriptures much.
Anth, if my cat pisses on you, you can piss on my cat, but not on me OK?
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Hi Anth, I would like a number count on how many times M told the "slay your relatives" Arjuna story to premies. It was a lot. Nice motivational talk.
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Outstanding in presentation and content. I KNOW you will enjoy it to the very last page
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There is much to value in the Gita and especially the greater work the Mahabharata. It isn't very fair placing it in the same category as Dianetics. I read some of it in Sanskrit. It's beautiful poetry and the collective consciousness of an extraordinary culture. Have a little respect guy!
But I wouldn't recommend it for cult rehabilitation either.
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I have read both, (though I did not finish Dianetcs) but I do not like Praphupada's version. I prefer the version by Christopher Isherwood and Swami Prabhavananda of the Ramakrishna mission. That is an Advaita Vedanta interpretation, based on the teachings of Adi Shankara that Prabupada always strongly opposed. Andries
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Dianetics is so bad I can browse it just for the masochistic pleasure - it sets me up for the day, with my morning coffee. (And another look at the South Park Scientology episode which has me wetting myself every time) But the Gita? Never mind which version. Is there anything in it, that you didn't already know more about? Is there anything you can even enjoy reading? Or laughing at? It's boring as hell... When it comes to 'Dianetics: the Modern Science of mental health' versus 'Krishna Consciousness: the Science of Self Realisation...' I have to vote for Scientology here. At least Hubbard's funny, and Froggy isn't  Hurrah, for science, eh?
Modified by Nigel at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 19:09:30
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The subtitle for the Bhagavad Gita is "Krishna's Council in Time of War". If you are reading the Hari Krishna version, no wonder it sucked.
Two good versions are from Barbara Stoler Miller and S. Radhakrishnan. But really the Mahabharata, of which the BG is only a small chapter, is much more interesting. It's one of the greatest epics ever.
Scholars believe that the BG was pasted into the Mahabharata later by Brahmin priests to advance their agenda, so its heavy on the Hindu dharma/karma and god revelation stuff. I think it is not the most interesting part of the greater work, but I read part of it in Sanskrit, so I have a soft spot for it and it is beautiful poetry.
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As epic poetry, no problem, Aunt Bea. I can accept its historical or literary value. But as life instruction or scriptural authority..? I watched long sections of the Mahabharata when they put it on Channel 4 (?) back in the eighties, and it was good stuff. But that was watching it as drama, not as discovering the meaning of my life. I'm sure we can respect and love it all, appreciate its literary qualities, too, but only from a safe distance, provided we don't trust a word of it as factually accurate or useful.
Modified by Nigel at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 20:03:47
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of course not. Some of you guys have some strong knee jerk reactions. But these works are founding myths. They do have more than literary value and in the sense that they convey cultural values they do provide meaning. I think one of the problems is that the MB doesn't belong to our culture and as a result doesn't and probably shouldn't provide the kind of meaning for us that it does for an Indian.
But I would still like to suggest that mythical archetypes can provide a lot of meaning and values even in our jaded times. You can't read them literally for that though. You have to read them like any other book of fiction. After all, they are mythological accounts, even if some of the stories may have some historical truth to them. Still, the fact that you are reading a story that our forefathers were telling 3000 years ago carries a lot of power with it.
Modified by aunt bea at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 20:13:06
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That is my story and I'm sticking with it! Hey, if you can turn yourself into a pretzel, it's a ton of fun, imho
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...about what the Gita says about killing your loved ones.
anth whose father once said, "I still sometimes think I should have killed you when you were sixteen. I'd have had time off for good behaviour and been out five years ago."
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I give up. What's so good about the Gita (besides its obvious value as a story and a cultural keepsake)?
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It should be obvious, Jim ..... it's a good story with lots of gratuitous violence and brow-beating. God gets to show off how many arms he has and scare the crap out of the anti-hero. WHat more could one ask of a short story?and it's a culutral keepsake
Modified by NAR at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 18:41:16
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not to mention the heart renting scene where Arjuna loses his nerve and thinks, "Maybe I shouldn't kill my relatives." then the Lord puts him right.
Hari Anthi
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Anth,
I am going to introduce you to some of my relatives. I'm on Krishna's side.
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>I am going to introduce you to some of my relatives. I'm on Krishna's side. Dismembered heads of favourite aunties? Second cousins? Your sister's torso will do. Anything to liven up the discussion... 
Modified by Nigel at Tue, Apr 18, 2006, 17:57:54
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Nigel, I feel pretty lonely over there, fighting on in that battel for truth, justice and the darwinian way....... or did you just give up in disgust?
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I'm flagging a bit, but very impressed by yours and JHB's stamina...
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The Mahabharata as a whole was developed as a orally-transmitted story over thousands of years. It was authored by generations of a culture. That in itself is an amazing accomplishment.
As a founding myth it contains the basic archetypes for human virtue, meaning, and ideals. In it the reader finds expression for her basic fears and hidden desires. It fosters wisdom and strives for a moral center.
And it's a great story.
And you're comparing it to Dianetics?
Modified by aunt bea at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 19:03:25
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Hi! Maybe Darwin, Dawkins and Harris can give peace and satisfy your mind and soul (if you believe in it at all) but not mine. We are different. The fact that you get rid off M. and that Prabhupada doesn't have 5 millions followers in India doesn't mean that there is no God. You have to keep on trying my friends... Thanks jazzman
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Jazzman, I like the fact that you say we have to keep trying because it gives me the freedom to throw that right back at ya! Harris' book is fantastic. I dare you to read it and tell me that it doesn't make solid, compelling sense. Come on, fair is fair. I read the Gita ....
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Truly a great book. I told you you would like it. I've given it to two or three other people to read after I finished it. Even his footnotes are great.
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Yes Joe, you did. Thanks. Laurie bought it for me for Christmas and I just started reading it. (We came up for the night to this beautiful, rustic resort she helped a couple buy last year. Really amazing work on Laurie's part, I must say, and they've always wanted us to come check it out. So we spent the night in a rustic cabin on the beach, three hours north of Victoria. There was an eagle outside, on the rocks, not thirty feet away a few minutes ago. God, what a place to just relax, read a bit ...Gotta pack already!) Harris' writing could have been half as good and it still would have been an important book. Hard to get around the fact that he looks like a cross between Ben Stiller and the villian's brat son in Austin Powers. No, this book is very insightful. And timely.
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His point about moderate religious people providing cover for the fanatics is a fair one, although I don't think I ever really thought of it that way. I guess I thought moderate/liberal religious people were an asset and proof that being liberal or progressive does not necessarily mean you are anti-relgion. But I think Harris is right the more I think about it. This idea that you can't criticize someone's religion, even though they have no more reason to believe in it than they do in Santa Claus, has got to be blown apart, or we all might get blown up. And I saw Sam Harris in person a few weeks ago, and I thought he was really, really cute, verging on hunk, but then I'm a push over for brainy, articulate guys.
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Joe,
here we are having a serious talk about a guy's book and all you can think of is s_x! Man........ all my concepts..... wait, are you a guru?
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I mean, it should have been clear from the start that a fat ice-cream eating boy cannot be a true guru. What evidence did he provide? Why didn't you do any research about the mediation techniques before putting faith in him. Those meditation techniques were just simplified yoga techniques. Why did you need Maharaji for that? Did GMJ do any miracles that you worshipped him like God? Did he do or encourage charity? That is an important question, because one knows a prophet by his fruits. Did he ever hold an intelligent discourse? Did he lead the life style that belongs to a true guru? Sorry, to say so, but you were so gullible and naive. Yes, I feel sorry with you, but I think that you deserved to follow a guru who was at best incompetent and at worst a charlatan. My guru Sathya Sai Baba did provide proof: he did and still does many miracles, such as changing water into petrol. Re-surrecting people (American Walter Cowan). Read e.g. John S. Hislop's "My Baba and I". He is an excellent and intelligent orator. He leads a simple life. Besides he did and does a lot of charity and one knows a prophet by his fruits, so he must be good. I do not want to be insulting, but I think that it is once again proven that people follow false gurus and get into cults are simply stupid. Andries
Modified by Andries at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 17:33:41
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Refering to this Andres character
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I followed a false guru (Sathya Sai Baba) myself. And yes, I was naive and gullible too. Andries
Modified by Andries at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 15:26:27
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He'll downright piss you off sometimes, but he pulls jokes on a semi-regular basis.
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What you meant to say was that you followed a stupid magician whose simple parlor tricks were enough for your devotion, right? His tricks are elementary school simple and I knew it the very first time I saw him perform one of them. I even knew how he did it. Later, those Indian debunkers who filmed him being caught, proved me to be right. I like magic and always have. I know quite a few tricks that would really amaze you (it's a hobby). You really meant to say that falling for cheap physical tricks to indicate some spiritual connection to the deeeeevine was even stupider than we were, right Andries? Although stupid is a relative term in this regard......
Modified by NAR at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 15:49:10
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Find one that isn't.... just one.
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Your post is genuinely funny to me! You are so right. Why on earth choose to be stung by such an obvious dud as Maha when we could have had a proper spiritual type ripoff at the hands of a genuine eastern savant. I think perhaps it was the beauty of his golden form. lol Bryn
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You make some good points, Andries and some bad ones.
You shall know them by their fruits: Yes you know a guru by the effect he has on his students' lives, not by any silly stage magicians' tricks. Unfortunately the effect GMJ had was one of the excitement of a religious conversion experience and the meditation proved useless for long term life enlightenment. Still it took a while before that test could be fulfilled.
The evidence he provided was in the fact that he had an awful lot of Indian followers, thousands of whom were supposed to be realised and they looked and sounded like they were realised, at least the ones I met did. He said he had experiential evidence, become initiated, practise the meditation and find out for yourself.
While the Guru's discourses were very basic, after all he could barely speak English, many of his followers gave extremely good discourses, some of them gave brilliant discourses and compared to the information available at the time on Sai Baba which was mainly the Murphett books they were way out in front on every level. And they were from the heart as well, which can be very, very persuasive on a deeper than intellectual level.
Did I want to follow a fat, ice-cream eating boy guru? Absolutely not. I humbled myself anyway because of the effect of the followers' persuasion but I could not humble myself enough to follow a guru who did cheap magic tricks. Every holy man in Europe in the medieval times performed 'miracles' but not anymore, every guru in India performs "miracles" but not when they are in the West where the skeptical level is higher and that's possibly why Sai Baba stays at home. Vibhuti? Endless vibhuti from vases? Didn't you read any of those books about 'How to be a Magician? when you were a child?
The reality is that there is no correlation between the sophistication of the guru and the followers. I was sophisticated enough to pass up Sai Baba, Krishnamurti, Ananda Marga, Prabhupad and I had 10 translations of the Gita, my own copy of the Gospel of Ramakrishna which in 1963 cost $70 which was about twice the average weekly wage then but I still acted like a gullible fool in 1973 when I met some premies.
You're not being insulting but a little naive and that's why we love you. Anyway, instead of putting us in our place, why don't you tell those Muslims in the faculty what you think of Muhammed?
Â
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(In case people wonder why I did not reply to e-mails then it is because I have for some reason little energy at the moment)
Yes you know a guru by the effect he has on his students' lives, not by any silly stage magicians' tricks. SSB did have good effect on people’s lives among others because he instilled faith in Him and God by his stage magician’s tricks. And also because he encouraged them and even made them enthusiastic to do seva, defined in the SSB movement as self-less service to society and especially to the needy.
While the Guru's discourses were very basic, after all he could barely speak English, many of his followers gave extremely good discourses, some of them gave brilliant discourses and compared to the information available at the time on Sai Baba which was mainly the Murphett books they were way out in front on every level. I can imagine that you think that the books by Howard Murphet about SSB were not of a very high standard, but some of SSB's discourses and the book "My Baba and I" by John S. Hislop about SSB were much better. I never liked the books by Murphet and I gave one away when I was a follower.
Vibhuti? Endless vibhuti from vases? Didn't you read any of those books about 'How to be a Magician? when you were a child? Yes, I read them, but I had not read this trick. Again, many miracles reported about SSB cannot be explained by mere magic. Like resurrections of dead people.
Andries
Modified by Andries at Thu, Apr 27, 2006, 15:18:04
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You make some good points, Andries and some bad ones.
You shall know them by their fruits: Yes you know a guru by the effect he has on his students' lives, not by any silly stage magicians' tricks. Unfortunately the effect GMJ had was one of the excitement of a religious conversion experience and the meditation proved useless for long term life enlightenment. Still it took a while before that test could be fulfilled.
The evidence he provided was in the fact that he had an awful lot of Indian followers, thousands of whom were supposed to be realised and they looked and sounded like they were realised, at least the ones I met did. He said he had experiential evidence, become initiated, practise the meditation and find out for yourself.
While the Guru's discourses were very basic, after all he could barely speak English, many of his followers gave extremely good discourses, some of them gave brilliant discourses and compared to the information available at the time on Sai Baba which was mainly the Murphett books they were way out in front on every level. And they were from the heart as well, which can be very, very persuasive on a deeper than intellectual level.
Did I want to follow a fat, ice-cream eating boy guru? Absolutely not. I humbled myself anyway because of the effect of the followers' persuasion but I could not humble myself enough to follow a guru who did cheap magic tricks. Every holy man in Europe in the medieval times performed 'miracles' but not anymore, every guru in India performs "miracles" but not when they are in the West where the skeptical level is higher and that's possibly why Sai Baba stays at home. Vibhuti? Endless vibhuti from vases? Didn't you read any of those books about 'How to be a Magician? when you were a child?
The reality is that there is no correlation between the sophistication of the guru and the followers. I was sophisticated enough to pass up Sai Baba, Krishnamurti, Ananda Marga, Prabhupad and I had 10 translations of the Gita, my own copy of the Gospel of Ramakrishna which in 1963 cost $70 which was about twice the average weekly wage then but I still acted like a gullible fool in 1973 when I met some premies.
You're not being insulting but a little naive and that's why we love you. Anyway, instead of putting us in our place, why don't you tell those Muslims in the faculty what you think of Muhammed?
Â
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Either way, I both rejoice and despair. Go ahead and follow Srila "complete fucking idiot" Prabhupada, for the rest of your limited days on this planet, if that floats your boat. But - trust me - your life is worth more than that. Try to love it for it's own sake and not look to 'teachers' or scriptures to get you there. You are there/here already. Like the rest of us. Drop the archaic baggage and get real, Jazza....
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Nigel, Nigel...Following Prabhupada hahahaha....you do follow Prabhupada not me!!!....I do not need that!!!...I talk about eventually existence of God and not following religions...to drop archaic baggage doesn't mean to understand...."love the life for its own sake" It sounds Maharaji hahahahahaha
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Pardon my frankness, Jazza, but can you really find serious time for a 'teacher' like Prabhupada? Try this, from ‘Krishna Consciousness: The 'Science' of Self-Realisation’:
In April 1973, during a long morning walk at Venice Beach, in Los Angeles, Srila Prabhupada [founder of the International Society for KRSNA Consciousness] turned to the subject of modern science and scientists. With philosophical rigour, profound common-sense, and disarming frankness, he exposed the narrow-mindedness and illogic behind the scientists' commonly accepted theories about the origin of life. [!?....] Dr Singh: Of course, so much is being written about Darwin's theory. In any library there are hundreds of books on his theories. Srila Prabhupada: Do they accept or reject them? Dr Singh: Generally they accept him, but there are some who are very critical. Srila Prabhupada: Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing? Dr Singh: Darwin says that the species are not created independently but are descended from another. Srila Prabhupada: If there is no question of independence, how can he abruptly begin with a certain species? He must explain how the original species came into existence. ... Dr Singh: Weren't all the varieties of animals existing from the beginning? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Simultaneous creation is verified by the Bhagavad Gita. ... Mike Robinson [BBC interviewer]: Can you tell me what you believe - what the philosophy of the Hare Krsna movement is? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna Consciousness is not a question of belief; it is a science.
Modified by Nigel at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 19:01:39
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This is my favorite amongst my favorite quotes on many levels:"...Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution. He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms. He claims that man has evolved from monkeys, but we can see that the monkey is not extinct. If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing?...." Shall we take them one at a time? 1. "Darwin speaks about the evolution of the species of life, but he has no real information about spiritual evolution." Uhhh, maybe because there is no evidence of any such thing? If there had been, he would likley have found it. He was pretty bright, ya know. 2. "He knows nothing about the progress of the spirit soul from lower forms of life to higher forms." Ditto the above. Maybe because there is no soul? Could it be? Maybe because reincarnation is a bunch of hooey? Of course not..... it's because Darwin was such an unobservant science-slut..... yeah, that's better. 3. "He claims that man has evolved from monkeys," Uh, no he didn't, not with anything definitive. That was the interpretation of those ignorant of his hypothesis, if I rememer my Darwin correctly. But hey, just a smallish error, so no biggie. 4. and the most important of them all, "If the monkey is the immediate forefather of man, why is the monkey still existing?" Because, moron, the monkey is well adapted to life on earth. Thank goodness that things don't go extinct just because man showed up......... we'd be blessed with a very dark sky because ALL elements, except hydrogen, were fused by stars and they are, thus, our progenitors in a very real way..... we evolved from the stars. Yeah, this guy is worth following. Well, at least he didn't claimn to be the 40th incarantion of Krishna or anything like that. He had THAT musch going for him.
Modified by NAR at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 18:57:22
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Yeah, this guy is worth following. Well, at least he didn't claimn to be the 40th incarantion of Krishna or anything like that. He had THAT much going for him. Yeah, Froggy seems a less ego-driven bullshit merchant than some we know. He was even a proven scholar (to the extent that he'd actually read a book - shame it was only the one!) But he abandoned his family in India to set up a cult in the west and f*ck up plenty of gullible young heads with the same sort of fairy tale Rawat was propagating... I don't think Sri Prab objected to being loved and revered by his followers, and I'm sure he always had a hot meal on his table and clean sheets on his bed (and who knows what else?). He was a damn sight more attractive than Rawat, for sure, far more articulate than Rawat, but still a cult leader and an uneducated idiot, like Rawat.
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It definitely is a process to get on with life without Rawat (I have a hard time typing in Maharaji). Even after 3 1/2 years of becoming an "ex", I still have suppressed feelings. Just last week after a Passover Seder with my parents and my husband, the subject came up about Rawat and what a fraud he is and how I was brainwashed. My parents saw how upset I was and I'm sure it pleased them to see that I no longer am being duped (especially after 30 years of listening to me) Ok, so that night I had a few dreams about Rawat. In part of the dreams, Rawat was drunk and stoned in the passenger seat up front and I was sitting in the back (like the station wagons I rode as a kid). Supposedly, his organization was over and I found his coveted appointment book. I was thinking of doing something with it and he had no idea that I had it. (I had a little bit of power, I thought). And then Rawat commented about a song on the radio by Wham (maybe) and I replied that I didn't care for it because it was "bubblegum" music and I told him about the great music I grew up with like Crosby, Stills and Nash, etc and the rock classics. Rawat didn't respond. Then the scene changed to me taking a shower and when I came out of the shower standing naked , Rawat was there with his side-kicks trying to hold him up as he still appeared stoned. Then I said "hey, I understand you have a dick the size of peanut and show it to me. Of course, he didn't and I'm not sure he even comprehended what I was saying.. I just remember being very defiant to him. But what the heck was the meaning of these dreams? Of course, after analyzing these dreams, I'm sure I was just problem solving. I just remembering waking up feeling pissed off that Rawat was still in subconscious. Of course, it was because of the discussion earlier that night. So, here I am after several years, I still have anger and defiance which I attribute as being normal, healthy feelings. And I'm not gonna beat myself up about it. Although I would have liked to see his "peanut" sized dick. It helped me to read the ex-premie.org site and read the forum and know that I wasn't alone. But after two years, I just had to take a break and it helped. I hardly ever think about Rawat. Except recently I was looking at photos of his Malibu mansion and I really felt pissed off again at his opulent lifestyle and what we sacrificed for him to live that way. So occassionally, I check in on this forum, but sometimes it brings up too much repressed feelings (as you can see by my crazy dreams). I wish you the best and know that your wounds will heal. it just takes time. Good luck... Judy
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I had a very bad and painful disillusionment with another guru. I compiled the following recovery webpage that may help you. http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/recovery.html I think that Mike's idea to write things down is good, but I would wait a bit before requesting it to published as a journey, because your writings are likely to be unbalanced still, due to your the emotions you are processing. Andries
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I am thinking pretty literally right now, I guess that may be a symptom. Andries was being sarcastic and I missed it. Sorry Stephen B
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Hi StephenBI did the same thing and took Andries' post literally - I didn't get the humour. I think that it may be a language barrier thing, as English isn't Andries' mother tongue. It's either that, or he has a very unusual sense of humour!
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but in spite of that, I still think it is not the language barrier. Andries
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Hi Andries,If it wasn't the language barrier, I would be interested to know why you think the humour didn't come across in your post. Or was your post in fact a serious one? Thank you
Modified by Stardust at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 16:15:00
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But I have a fairly dry sense of humor, so that might be why I caught it. If Andries is guilty of anything, it was poor timing to put it in this particular thread.
Modified by NAR at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 16:20:39
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OK thanks NAR, I think I'm gettin' it now...! Andries hit a nerve, because in many ways he's right. We all bought into it and that makes me annoyed with myself - for being so naiive, trusting and dumb. Couple that with my own projection, and hey presto, you have a premie!
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I dunno why the humor did not come across to the regular readers of this forum who by now, I thought, know my background. In the case of StephenB it is understandable because he is new here. My post was a mainly a joke, but it also expresses some serious lack of understanding why people were attracted to Maharaji in the first place. I know, tastes are very different in the case of gurus and religion and may be there was not so much to choose from in the 1970s. I think I will have to read more of the writings by Jan van der Lans and Downton who wrote extensively about their interviews and interactions with premies but I would also be very happy with some more explanations from people here. Andries
Modified by Andries at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 16:33:23
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I met someone who was definitely having the kind of experiences I was looking for from meditation. I grilled her for a year, and finally followed it up for myself.
I was definitely exceedingly unneducated about eastern culture apart from the usual Ram Dass/Herman Hesse adolescent stuff and a fair bit of Buddhism. but I don't think it would have made the difference. I was pretty certain that k worked, or could work, so done deal til I saw if it worked for me, and it did.
Anyway I'd read enouigh zen poetry to see that as in anything it wasn't the tools you had but what you did with them that mattered. My naivete was in thinking that because you could have those experiences from the practice of k then somehow that was related to rawats role in it all, when if I'd been better read would have been much easier to see through.
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Me too Andries.
I don't know why you imply that posters here haven't really explained their involvement to your satisfaction. What kind of explanation do you want?
Unlike a great many other cults, this one was predicated not so much on a belief system, as on a physical 'experience'. The experience had sufficient reality for a sufficient number of people to support the explanation given for it : ie, that unlikely as it seemed, the Divine Principle was in some way incarnated in the body of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.
As Hamzen says, there was no information easily available about either Kriya Yoga, or the Bhakti sects, or indeed the Rhadasaomi/Sant Mat movement & its origins in the 18/19th century mixing of European & Indian culture. Even today the relationship between the Sikhs & the British is little known about, or of much interest ( except to oddballs like me) & if I'd known in 1972 that Guru Maharaj Ji was supposedly in direct line from a retired Subaldar in Hodsons Horse, or the Queen's Own Corps of Guides, or whatever it was, then I certainly would've thought...........hang on a minute, what's going on here.
I didn't know anything at all about any of those things at the time & I didn't/don't know anyone who does now either, except for some ex-premies, that is.
Look no further than false pretences for our involvement. Everything about about it was deliberately kept from the rank & file. Unlike your wanker guru with his useless clouds of ash, ours did seem, for a time at least, to be offering something more tangible & of better value to mankind.
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but when I was a believer I did not perceive the vibuthi (holy ash) as useless at all. It had several symbolic meanings to me i.e. - It reminded believers of Shird Sai Baba who took ash out of the fire and gave it to villagers and visitors
- It was symbolic for God because ash, like God cannot be changed anymore. It is in its final state
- Ash referred to the burning of desires that should be the aim for every human being. Shiva burnt the God of desire (Kama) into ashes
- Finally ash refers to the final state of the human body.
Of course, I will say in hindsight that I have been gullible, naive and stupid, like most ex-premies will admit, but the other side of the story is that, like with ex-premies, I really had some good reasons for my faith in SSB: there are many miracle stories that seemed convincing and for which no explanation was and is available. Andries
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Because it wasn't funny. That happens to me sometimes. I try to make a joke (especially here, in writing) and even if people know me, they don't get it, and it falls flat. Of course I knew you were trying to be ironic and sarcastic, but it just wasn't funny. I suppose it even unintentionally hurt. Humor can be a razor's edge, but you have to get the laugh first. But, don't stop trying.
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 17, 2006, 17:08:31
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I really appreciate you guys right now, actualy I am not so fragil that a well placed barb does not do some good. It was a good question to ask afterward.....why didn't I get it right away, normally I would have? I have been spaced out all day, hard to concentrate......disassociated pretty much. I called some freinds to go away for awhile this weekend. One was in a small Islamic cult for awhile in New York City. I think we may have some things to talk about. Cheers!
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