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I lived at 1516 17th St!
What a stupid address. Next street along was 1415 16th St. I used to smoke dope in those days, and a couple of times went to the wrong house. 1415 16th St was never locked. I'd walk into the kitchen, realise I was a block away from home, and quietly leave.
I was the guy who lived in the shed in the garden under the avocado tree.
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ack! I can't remember -- It's the getting old thingy. I lived at 1516 in 1975 - bill apter was there, mike mahoney, dean mermel, jenny love.. I often wonder about these folks... for the life of me I'm not sure I remember you or not. What's really funny about this, is they just opened a whole foods market in Omaha, and I bought some Dr. Bronner's soap -- that peppermint smell just brought it all back.
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I guess I came after you. Bill and Jenny were still there. I don't recognise the others. Daniel Light ( yes, he changed his name to match his religion! ) and his girlfriend, a french movie editor, Francois, and a guy who was trying to cure his bad back by eating only raw food.
That's better - now I sound like one of the saner ones!
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I'm sure you're perfectly sane... now  as am I. I was one of the gazillion young women who became single mothers. I got pregnant and moved to the Hollywood Argyle. Then I moved south to Redondo beach, had my baby there and on to Lomita before I moved to Denver. Having that baby (my son will be 30 this summer!) was probably the 1st step in regaining my own sanity. I realized that I needed to raise my own child; the 'it takes a village' attitude was mostly guilt trips and Maraji wants you to do this... that.... One of the reasons I have no regrets is because every experience, good bad or middlin' leads us to where we are now. Perhaps living under that avocado tree taught you something about yourself, something that led you to becoming the person you are today.
Modified by wislan at Mon, Apr 10, 2006, 06:54:52
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One of the reasons I have no regrets is because every experience, good bad or middlin' leads us to where we are now. Perhaps living under that avocado tree taught you something about yourself, something that led you to becoming the person you are today. There are two things wrong with that attitude. One, it's stupid. Life has countless possibilities and is an amazing amalgam of happenstance and intention, good or bad, smart or stupid. To just say that it's all good is just as dumb as saying it's all bad. It's just a new age way to innoculate yourself against the real deal, life, make of it what you will. It's a new age smiley face which masks the real person. The second thing wrong with that attitude is that it isn't real. No one actually feels that way. Even Forrest Gump, fictional and slow, was able to feel regret for mistakes made. And pride for wise choices. So when I hear or read someone saying something like that I immediately tell myself that this is a person who's not honest with him or herself. They might think they are but that just shows how well we can fool ourselves.
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So when I hear or read someone saying something like 'with all due respect', I have to wonder what it is that is being respected. I hear politicians use the phrase, and lawyers...
I accept what you have to say about that attitude that 'whatever happened in the past made you what you are today'. That attitude assumes that life has a path, a purpose, and that every event has significant meaning. It doesn't allow for randomness, nonsense, mistakes, and the possibility that there is no ulterior purpose.
So while I agree with you, I wonder why you said what you did while I said nothing. Why do you have to be such a Rottweiler, digging your teeth in wherever you smell raw meat?
Do you have any friends? Cos when I come out with stuff like you just did, I often find I have alienated yet another person that won't be coming to dinner. Or are you surrounded by people with zero-tolerance of new age thinking? If so, where do you live, and what are property prices like? And do they still have parties in your neighbourhood?
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they would change their gun ownership laws to something a little more reasonable Seriously, 13, do you have any tolerance for new-agey thinking? I don't! That is one area where my tolerance is ZERO! It displaces reality with fantasy, it displaces truth with fiction and it displaces science with "ancient wisdom" (which is another term for WRONG!!). I haven't seen anything good come of new-age thinking, have you? I see the new age book shelves in book stores filled with loads and loads of tripe. Not a single book worth the tree that was used to put it in print. All crap! You wanna talk about wasted natural resources? The ones used to print those books would be my first targets. So, Jim...... do I qualify to live in your neighborhood? I certainly hope so....... On a side note, how in the heck does the term "new age" correlate with the "ancient wisdom" to which all new-agers seem to bow? New Age is anything but "new." It is the most damaging, regressive nonsense I've ever heard. Flat earth, Magic, charms, crystals, tarot, astrology, homeopathic "medicine" (blood letting would likely be more effective), ufo's and all the other anti-scientific/pseudo-scientific baloney! "New Age?" Not hardly...... let's call it what it is: Ancient Muddle-Headed Stupidity (aka: superstition, for short). P.S. For those who think that scientists are a stodgy bunch, you have obviously never been to a conference. Some of the most lively and real people I know are scientists. Funny, too! Unlike what most people have been led to believe. However, they do revel in reality! To me, a mathematical formula attempting to describe a neutron star (that was for Mike F), is a thing of beauty. For those who can readi it and ingest its full meaning, it's amazing and as awe-inspiring as anything a new-ager has ever said..... and it has one advantage..... it's a TRUTH!
Modified by NAR at Tue, Apr 11, 2006, 13:05:02
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I put the same value onto new age as you do NAR. Complete crap. Waste of time. Boring. Stupid.
But I am surrounded by it, and many of the people who are into it are OK so long as you don't go into discussing new age stuff with them ( most know not to with me ). So I have to tolerate it. Directly challenging it seems rarely productive.
And I am grateful to those people who treated me well as a human being when I was a premie. They appreciated other stuff in me, and responded to that. They didn't discuss my guru with me. Eventually, I was fully engaged with such people, and found I was missing nothing not 'practising knowledge', and that there was no hole for 'knowledge' to fill. I could put it down to their input that I left the cult, more than 'drips', I think. They looked for the good stuff in me, and ignored the crap.
And where would I draw the line if I came out against new age stuff with all guns blazing? There's all that psuedo-science to fight against, and then there's misinterpretation of real science to sort out, and then misunderstanding and/or misuse of statistics to argue against. It never ends.
And one more thing. I have been an active promoter of the 'truth' in the past, and I am ashamed of that. No matter how certain I am of my ground, I am reluctant to promote it these days. I doubt I will ever get over that, and it may be a good thing. Instead of directly attacking new age stuff, I skirt round it and look for the good stuff, or if it is unavoidable, I will question it and question their motives for believing it, rather than promote the good sense and logic behind science. Occasionally though, I just come out with a good old-fashioned rant against all this bollocks!
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13,
We have our kids to think about. Our kids are growing up in the midst of this nonsense and we have to fight it. It's the only way. You cannot peacefully coexist with that garbage and not have it affect our kids.Seriously..... think about it. Our realtively minor exposure to some of that garbage got us into "shape" for the guru-nator! There is ever so much more of it around today. You think not? Try this on for size: Montel Williams is an unabashed supporter of Sylvia Brown's psychic nonsense. It's on TV constantly. Ghost whisperer and all the other supernatural crud. Then there are totally transparent references to astrology. Homeopathic "medicine" is in the neighborhood grocery store. Programs on the validity of UFO claims abound. On and on and on....... Our kids are never trained, by those same resources, on what constitutes valid research and differentiates it from pure conjecture and muddle-headed thinking (the new-age norm). You and I know the difference, but we grew up during a time when that garbage wasn't barraging us day in and day out. Horoscopes were in the funny-paper section of the newspaper. Science, REAL science was a daily occurance on TV during my youth. Science teachers were all business and laughed out loud at the nonsense. Now...... some of our science teacher don't even know that radio is "light" and it travels at that speed. See what I mean? We have to fight! I could tolerate it when it was just a nuisance..... but it isn't a nusiance anymore, it is an ELEPHANT sitting in the living room. The kids see that elephant, even if we don't. I cannot tell you the number of times, to date, where I have had to "explain" things to my daughter in that regard. She is pretty sharp and listens to reason..... However, I am a scientist! How many families are there that possess a real, no kidding, bonifide scientist in their midst? How many families have parents who really understand science and how it is properly performed? How many of those parents know how to engage their children in a way that explains it and transfers that info to the child? How many of those parents even perceive the ELEPHANT? HOw many of those parents believe in some pseudoscientific claptrap that was presented as fact to them (and they never found out otherwise)? We can't tolerate pseudoscience. The way to think of pseudoscience is that it is, in fact, ANTI-science! Maybe that will light a fire under some butts. It has infiltrated into the mainstream and it is crap! When it was only the fringes, it was laughable...... I'm not laughing anymore. I truely believe that it will take YEARS for us to just get back to the level of technical and scientific excellence that allowed us to travel to the moon. Science, real sceince, isn't stressed like it used to be. Think about that for a moment. Reigning in rampant technology "might" have been a good idea..... killing it wasn't! We couldn't fly anything to the moon if our lives depended on it. It isn't that NASA cannot do what they did. They still attract the brightest minds around. It is all of the supporting cast, the engineers, the technologists and others in the commercial sphere that have me concerned. Mars?????? You gotta be kidding. We'll get there, but you and I will be dead before that happens. Think about that for a moment. You and I (I am assuming you are my age), watched with amazement as flight after flight got us closer to our goal of landing men on the moon and bringing them, and some serious science, home safely. Then....... nothing! Now, it's almost like we never went. Why? Because pseudoscience took hold. Anti-technology took hold. What replaced our natural desire to explore and learn? Sylvia Brown....... UFO's..... Astrology..... Tarot..... Guru's...... on and on and on. We don't have the pool of talent coming up through the ranks of our schools to make it happen..... Instead we have crystal-wavers, meditators, ghost-believers and ....... well, you know the rest Fight I must and fight I will, even if it costs me some friends. In fact, if talking real science and the difference between it and the nonsense that is being disseminated costs me friends, then I guess they weren't the good friends that I may have thought. That is my take on it, anyway...... sorry if this was too long. It is a real hot-button subject for me. I was guset-teaching a physics calss recently and a student wanted me to fill him in on the "new" zero-source energy and cold-fusion...... SEE WHAT I MEAN? It's time to circle the wagons, baby..... we are surrounded by it!
Modified by NAR at Wed, Apr 12, 2006, 11:59:40
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Yep, I hit the red button here!
I understand your anger. But I think what you described as the elephant in the living room is something even bigger. Apart from the astrologers and crystal wavers, there are the more accepted forms of delusion, with less well defined edges. Most of what comes out of the TV, and much of what is taught in schools.
There's much more than an ignorance of science to fight. Many people are economically ignorant, and suffer the 9-5 thing without considering alternative life styles ( 9-5 may be fine if you like the work ). Then there is political ignorance, racism, consumerism....
Surely better to promote critical thinking than try to destroy the products of uncritical thinking?
Modified by 13 at Thu, Apr 13, 2006, 05:19:48
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The essence of science is critical or, as many of my colleagues prefer to say, "analytical" thought. I am tending to the latter, as well, due to the hijacking of the term for college-level classes that have nothing to do with the traditional meaning of "critical thought." But that is just semantics.If we can get the science part of the equation right, then analytical thought will become, once again, the mainstay of our educational institutions and maybe, just maybe common sense will truely prevail over ignorance/superstition. We were on our way, to a large degree, during my youth. Science was the thing so many kids wanted to participate in. Our schools were heavy in science, math, reading, you name it! I am relly glad I was educated, during my formative years, in that time. Then the counterculture 60's occurred. One of the largest and most damaging aberrations I can think of. WHat little good came out of it was overshadowed by all of the negative nonsense that followed it. What a waste of time and mind power. So, now those children of the 60's, many of whom have never grown up, are now in charge of training our children.... and it shows. Anyway...... I am trying to do my part. If you do yours and others do theirs, we can get this train back on the tracks!
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well sorry for you--- if you don't learn anything from your mistakes... what are you? oh, I guess that would be the St___d word. THe real deal is that -- I made mistakes, poor decisions the whole - real - deal. Presumably so did you. Perhaps you know someone who made no mistakes, but I don't. Perhaps you live among folks who are full of regrets, because, you're right, they are out there. But to say "noone feels that way" is as dishonest as you say I am. I am a remarkably wonderful, smart, educated, successful person today, and that is in part because of the many mistakes I have made. And I am so *not* new age! that is still making me chuckle! with an MBA and a career in finance, yeah, so new age! tee Hee!
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One of the reasons I have no regrets is because every experience, good bad or middlin' leads us to where we are now. Perhaps living under that avocado tree taught you something about yourself, something that led you to becoming the person you are today. The subject of being a former follower of Maharaji isn't black and white. Some people followed him for decades, others for a few years, others even less than that. Some people devoted their lives in every way possible to him, to an extreme, at his request and demand, e.g. joining the ashram, trying for total surrender to Maharaji personally, maybe becoming an instructor. Others dabbled, lived on the fringe. There were community premies, very devoted premies who did have families and had the sense to put them first, before Maharaji. Then there were community premies who divorced to join the ashram, based upon the many times Maharaji told us there was no use for a spouse. During the DECA project, DLM processed divorces right out of headquarters in Miami Beach. I know because I worked with the lawyer who did the divorces, so one or both could move into the ashram and work on M's B707. Some had kids, Wislan. So, there's a wide spectrum of former premie experiences. Some exes see themselves as the ones who made a mistake and some see themselves as having been conned in a big way. Others see it as both. So, it's a matter of degree of involvement, length of time involved, and the losses incurred for having been a premie. Of course people learn from mistakes, but sometimes things happen to people that is beyond their control, too. I'm thinking about the children abused by Jagdeo. Maharaji was told about that and he did nothing about it to come to their rescue at the time. In fact, Jagdeo was watched by premie males because of it. Then, instead of doing something, Maharaji sent him back to India where he was free to abuse other children of premies. Besides that, there was a concerted effort made by Elan Vital to hinder those now grown women from speaking out about the abuse, on a previous version of the ex-premie forum. Intead of freely denouncing Jagdeo and helping those women out, they denied them the truth and the justice they so deserve to this day. You seem to have come out of the cult rather unscathed. I wonder if you took Marianne's advice and have read anything on EPO to discover what the major complaints are by ex-premies. I aplaud you for having gotten an education. There are exes who gave up that chance in the prime of their lives, all for Maharaji. There are those who have had to create a career in their fifties after having spent their entire lives living for him. When I hear you speak about your pregnancy, for instance, I think about myself. I've told this story many times before so I forewarn anyone reading this now. I also became pregnant in 1970s with a child I was planning to have. The father of my child spoke to Charanand about it, who gave him the advice that it was better for us to not be married, not have the child. We should join the ashram. There was tremendous pressure for me to have an abortion, which I did. And I joined the ashram. I ended up at DECA working for Maharaji, but that's a whole other story. That was my mistake, Wislan, a huge, major life mistake, but I can never forget the pressure that was placed upon me to do what I did, based upon the powerful advice of a close devotee of Maharaji, a major mahatma, someone who was viewed as the "perfect devotee," by most American premies. Even though I don't dwell on it every day, and don't think about it often anymore, it was a major loss, and to the day I die, I'll never, ever fully be over it. It's all a matter of degrees.
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Apr 11, 2006, 12:26:08
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Cynthia: Once again thanks for your caring responses, I hadn't heard of your 70's time and was sad to hear about it...
speechless..
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Now you admit that you made mistakes and your concern is to not be overwhelmed by regrets. If you'd said that in the first place, I'd have agreed. Instead, what you said was: One of the reasons I have no regrets is because every experience, good bad or middlin' leads us to where we are now. which, it sounds like, even you don't really believe in. Which proves my point. Anyway, glad your life is full of good stuff. Nice!
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I lived at 1516, please send me a private message if that is possible.
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i'd love to hear from you - I contacted the administrator and let him know that you may email me directly. I don't have anyway to send you a private message otherwise. Look forward to hearing from you.
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