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Yes, you missed worshipping the ONE who the Buddhas of the past and the Buddhas of the future worship. THe ultimate experince of experiences is worshipping the Living Lord of the whole Universe who contains all that IS, WAS AND WILL BE. < That's what I'd answer you if I was still a premie>
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I can relate to all this bhakti stuff. I was led willingly into devotion by the now antiseptic Mr P. Rawat esq, investor, pilot and life trainer to the discriminating and discerningly groovy. The above wild devotional relationship verbatim,yes,as spectacularly described, I had with him! I chose to get myself out of that relationship, before Mr Rawat decided to sanction his own "No bhakti please" approach for all of his followers.(Was that the enigmatic "phase two" he hinted at in 2000?) It seems to me that If you don't get yourself out and instead just go with the master's devotion-never-happened directive and say "well, that was then this is now", "Ol'Prem up to his tricks again eh? Ho ho!", you loose a great chunk of yourself into the darkness of the past.Possibly forever. Premies who have been "led beyond their bhakti" by their now anodyne master seem not to grasp the redeeming power of antipathy. Thats why they can only see blind hate here on this site. They imagine that this site has the function to support meaningless hate outpouring-effectively no function at all. They can't conceive of any purpose for hate. They remind me of certain early adolescents I have met, often second children, who are noticeably sociable, deferrential and charming toward the grown ups around them.They ease obligingly into a kind of pseudo-maturity, charmingly taking on the liberal life-trappings of their parents.They often speak with disdain for the reactivity of adolescence; as something beneath them. (it doesn't last!) I would like publicly to admit to a certain hate, and some of it directed squarely at my former lover Guru Maharaji, now neutrally styled as "Prem"... though god help you if you ever referred to him as "Prem" in his glory days! (I'm afraid I can't evidence that last statement with references from qualified academics..) The fact that I can still "hate" meaningfully here on this site after five years absence from "Prem" is the measure of the power of the above described bhakti relationship that existed between us.I am happily reclaiming that power for my own. For any premie readers here, I thoroughly recommend a good spring clean. Freedom from bhakti, like power, is never given, it has to be taken. I can't help but see Rawat's public absolution-for-all from the bhakti forces, as a manipulative, self-seeking and disempowering psychological trick. So premies please claim some hate for gods sake. Bhole Bhole Love Bryn
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What the hell is this? A pasteup from some yoga site? Where's your voice? What do you have to say? Anything? Nothing? Don't know? Why not ask your guru?
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Jim, sorry for the leap of abstraction here, I practiced the k for thirty years, was an ashram premie for 10, a coordinator for 5, went to many secret meetings with the select few even had a knowledge review from the man himself. At best I felt floaty and warm some times. After thirty years the bubble burst and I left. I can perhaps rationalize and say it was a path of devotion and that was not for me but I was intrigued by the description of Bhakti I had found on the web. To think that a person could have had that sort of connection with another being is beyond my comprehension. Never saw it in thirty years with prem. Never heard any one even get close to that. So k was not the doorway to enlightenment and from the above description it was certainly not a path of devotion. What ever it was I missed it. Other than that I must say I am happy now, happy to be free from the mumbo jumbo we used to have to make up in our heads to dust away our real fears and feelings. In a million years I could not dream of doing the devotion guru thing again. Such a waste of breath. Cheers. Peter.
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Fine. Glad you can see how confusing a start that was. No worries at all. I think it's really important to remember how easy it is for people to bullshit themselves, let alone everyone else, about the purity of their spiritual relations with their gods and gurus. I would never place much stock in this account even as a subjective description of the guy's experience. Not that it would appeal in any event.
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It's a very simple question and should be easy for anyone to answer:Where are all these liberated souls? I mean, seriously, if any one of these books was correct, in even the smallest detail, the world should be awash in these wonderful people. So many books have been written from a point of "knowledge" and yet....... I don't know a single person who is liberated. Judging from the numerous accounts of the results of liberation (again, written from the point of direct knowledge of same)....... we should know MANY people who are truely happy clappers, right? Really liberated, at one with god, etc. So where are they, anyway? Anyone got a clue? Failing in that task........ could it be that ALL of those books are..... well....... balogna? How can someone who is not "there" and never has been "there" tell me how to get "there?" Quite frankly, I've never met anyone who is "there," so it's the blind leading the blind into total blindness. Or maybe it's that there is no "there" to get to. The whole thing, every last bit of it, is utter fairy-tale material. Anyone care to prove that last statement wrong? To whom it may concern: I only want to hear from those who are FULLY and UTTERLY liberated (in other words, you are completely one with the infinite)...... nobody else need apply! The rest of "you" are parrots. I have a parrot and he likes crackers, he'll repeat anything I ask him to, as long as I give him a cracker...... been there, done that.
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You are not going to hear from any of them here as this is ex-premies' forum and so by definition almost everybody here lost their chance at liberation!
There have been large numbers of Eastern liberation techniques and gurus freely available in the West now for over 50 years and I have not heard of anyone I know or anyone people I know know who have attained anything lke liberation. I know a very small number of premies who think they're part way there though most just say they love Prem Rawat.
There are quite a few people claiming they are liberated to the fullest degree and they can be found advertising on the net or in the specialist magazines and invariably they want to sell you the possibility of becoming liberated by following their commands.
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And we all know what the bags are full of, too! That is my whole point, when it comes to all of these spritual trips. People have given their "everything" to these things for years and years. My gawd, you'd think after 30 years, SOMEONE would be a real happy clapper, right? If I had been doing something for over 30 years and never moved an inch towards realizaiton fo that goal, no matter what it is, I think I would have to admit that the goal "ain't happenin'" I mean, there is a time to cut and run..... this be the time, premies 
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Premies are not alone in replacing liberation and realisation with devotion. They have "realised" that devotion is the true "liberation". Basically everybody in a spiritual group just has a religion or worships their guru and some are just more open about it than others. Everybody else who thinks they're liberated seems to be either crazy or selling their services.
It's a damn shame! Those of us who decided that we should spend our lives trying to find God appear to have made a big mistake, worshipping Mammon was the way to go cause it'll buy you front row seats with the guru.
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I can swear this conversation has happened before. Yeah, the replacement of the promised liberation with the chokehold of devotion was a real slight of hand, no? It's almost like the time you notice your kid playing with some really expensive gadget that you don't want broken and you shake a rattle in their face to attract their attention so they will let loose without crying....... in fact, you give them that worthless rattle and they forget all about that expensive gadget they were promised (or already had in their hand) The dumbing down of the native premie....... that's what he did. Now, it's basically not even devotion (after all, he isn't god anymore). Now it's just a nice meditation exercise and visits with the "speaker." Wow..... liberation and service to god/world-community morphs into a little meditation and a 2 bit speaker. "Which way did he go, which way did he go?"
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I think you're confusing the introductory media message that EV presents with the actual beliefs and experience of the people involved. Anybody who spent even a short time involving themselves with "Knowledge" today would quickly see that Prem Rawat is the be all and end all of the process, after all it is his Gift of Knowledge. He si the only Speaker, there is still darshan, et, etc. EV does nont appear to be trying to present a logically coherent view of itself, the surface is apparently simple and straightforward but there is no attempt to hide the truth when someone goes in deeper.
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No-one could be that incompetent after 30 years unless they are either complete space cadets, supremely arrogant in the face of well useless results for most of those 30 years, or both I reckon.
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nice thread ... no particular comments ... you guys are saying it ... don't be too hard on yourselves .. you're the most realised people I know at the moment and I don't even know you ... or .. do I.....
long player
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Hiya NAR,
I notice you're looking for a liberated soul.
May I be of any assistance?
By the way, would you like to make a modest donation towards the cost of my work?
Blessings.
Shri Follyohyessir Paramanth ji.
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Guru Mariachi....... arriba, arriba!I think he is getting ready to insist he never asked for money and never claimed to be a guru or god or anything....... he's been so quiet for so long. I hear he now lives in central america on some palacial estate disguised as an episcopal church so he can claim tax credits and stuff like that
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Hi Peter,
You missed life outside the cult.
You missed a life where your reasoning was unfettered by cult doctrine.
You missed lots of brilliant music gigs.
You missed lots of fantastic sex (you were an ashram premie right?)
You missed a good cause and got caught up in a dodgy one.
You missed Punk.
You missed a career.
You missed the Poll Tax riots.
You missed the Talking Heads in Wembley.
...and only you know what else.
anth, who often misses the point and sometimes sits on it.
Modified by AJW at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 11:52:18
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Not sure about Poll Tax Riots, Punk and Talking Heads, but definitely the rest applies Nar, who always gets the point "in the end!"
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Myself and one of rawats' personal drivers(woo hoo) were witnesses to the Poll Tax riots in Picadilly Circus in 1991. Both still premies at the time. We both saw several hundred people being wipped up by a hand full of people. We took refuge in a doorway near the (old?) Whisky a go-go club. Jethro
Modified by Jethro at Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 01:47:05
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Hi Nar,
We had the poll tax riots in London. Sometimes it's the only way the government will listen. So, even if you weren't ensconced in a cult, you probably missed them if you weren't in London that day. And perhaps Jethro should have followed the old Situationist maxim:If you see a riot- join in.
I'm sure he would have had much more fun. (Hi jeth.)
Punk- well it was an amazing scene in London in the second half of the 70s. Looking back, I'd much rather have been jumping up and down in a sweaty club being spat on by Johnny Rotten, than on my knees in the Palace of Peace. At least the Sex Pistols didn't want me to give them all my money, give up sex and worship them.
And as for the Talking Heads- I'm just glad I got to see them before they split up. Have you seen any of David Byrne's movies?
anth the erratic typefaces
Modified by AJW at Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 05:27:21
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"If you see a riot- join in.
I'm sure he would have had much more fun. (Hi jeth.)"It was really freaky watching the whole thing being orchestrated by so few people. Talk about sheep! Best to D et al Jethro
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I aint pissed I missed punk, picked up on Joy Division and Siouxie and the Banshees, but cause I wasnt going out to stuff missed the whole punk/dub overlap and had no idea what sub bass was like to experience and feel sublimally on a powerful 12k plus rig  .
Dub couldve got me out WAY sooner, ah well, I haven't done bad since.
My life in the Bush of Ghosts , especially the Lebanese mountain singer track.
Was amazed when I got on the house scene and found loads of people who love that track, and Mixmaster Morris played it at the Big Chill bar before christmas, shivers or what. The weird thing is he was a roadie for the Clash.
Shit are we in the main forum, scrambles for a connection, can't find one, hopes the admin don't notice
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I went to the anti vietnam war demo in Grosvenor Sq but missed out on the poll tax riot through being a premie. Rawat diffused dissent almost as much as Thatcher did by introducing the student loan. (We can't rebel cos we're in debt) My pal Red Rob, an Irish cockney, met his mum at Euston station after she'd come fom Ireland to see her son, the sights, and to do some shopping. He took her into the West End and as they came out of a store they found themselves in the middle of the poll tax riots. Three guys jumped on Rob and he got free, grabbed a scaffold pole and gave them all a proper slapping. He took his mum away and eventually put her on the train to Holyhead to get back to Ireland. The next morning he went out to buy some ciggies and a newspaper and was very surprised to see his picture on the front of all the papers as public enemy no 1, it turned out that the guys he whacked were pain clothes cops. 3 days later a dawn raid resulted in the arrest of this `'leader of the poll-tax riots'. He got 15 months. The moral of the story is - don't go shopping with your mum,, of course
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Hi Falcon,
Sounds he's one of those sheep manipulating leaders Jeth' has been ranting about.
Seeyasoon.
anth the baaaaaaaginn
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