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On "doublethink"
From George Orwell's "1984":
"To know and not to know, to be conscious of
complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold
simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be
contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic,
to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy
was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to
forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into
memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget
it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself
-- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness,
and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had
just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use
of doublethink."
Scientology vs. Orwell's 1984
Modified by G at Sun, Mar 26, 2006, 09:53:29
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"PR ... became Guru Maharaj Ji, the Perfect Master"
"the Perfect Master is easy to recognise"
- Momento
"Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us."
"There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form"
- a signed statement from Rawat from 'And It Is Divine'
Guru, Master, God and the Supreme Lord
So here is a direct claim from Rawat that currently there is someone who is the "Lord of Creation" in human form. So who did he claim this person is? Sai Baba??? His brother???
No, he claimed it is "Guru Maharaji", the title he was going by, i.e. that he is God.
Momento, in claiming that Rawat became "Guru Maharaj Ji" and is still "Guru Maharaj Ji", is claiming that Rawat is still "the Supremest Lord in person", either that or he's claiming that Rawat lied, or maybe he's practicing the fine art of doublethink.
Modified by G at Sun, Mar 26, 2006, 10:15:52
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And so bloody unjust you should have to then endure the predictable high-handed treatment from Jossi et al. You've got Momento coming out with the ludicrous: 'He may have been worshipped but he was worshipped as a life changing teacher'. Just like you worship Doctor Phil, I guess? And Jossi, weaseling away as usual with: 'People had and have different perceptions of Maharaji thorough [sic] the years', as if those perceptions were merely dreamed up by the followers themselves. What is particularly obnoxious about Jossi's stance is the fact he is unmistakeably a devotee himself - but cannot say so publically - yet he'll immediately slap down anyone who dares use the term. (Who Rawat 'really is', is a nowadays a private discovery acquired through 'understanding' of his so-called Knowledge.) This makes him a hypocrite of the first order. Like I said in my Impossible Triangle piece, devotion requires dishonesty - whatever evasions, revisions and denials that might involve. Notice too how Jossi can't help keep repeating how the ex-premies are 'such a small group of people', disregarding the fact that most people who ever got K in the west have now left. Besides which, I remember there being sixty regular forum posters back in 1978. Since then, there must have been hundreds who have dropped in for a while to make sense of their past cult involvement, exorcise a few demons etc., before moving on. There have always been far more ex-premies posting on the web than active premies - maybe by as much as a ten-to-one ratio. And it is exes, rather than premies who usually use their real names and premies who rarely do. I'm sick of the lot of 'em. (Online premies, that is.)
Modified by Nigel at Sun, Mar 26, 2006, 15:30:53
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This is getting beyond a joke. Note the warm welcome Jossi gives 'Raphael Goodsend' after he's broken just about every Wiki rule in the book. >>>> - I can see the value in that last statement. These people you mention do not appear to have a clear view of the work Prem Rawat is undertaking in this world right now. How can anybody with a modicum of sensitivity to the human condition not applaud PR for the work he is doing? It's almost unbelievable that in this war ravaged time there can be groups of people arguing about what someone said when and what so and so actually 'meant' when they said bla bla bla a few months, years, decades ago? I don't have much to do with Prem Rawat at all, but very much enjoy his gift of the Knowledge experience and inspiration that has followed. What is this conversation here about actually? The John Brauns you mention is part of a new breed, those who fail spectacularly in the real world but through luck or skill manage to create themselves a new identity in cyberspace, complete with friends, admirers, the odd opposer and a new purpose. It all seems real. Brauns was lucky, not innovative or visionary, he was a mild and slightly vacuous contributor to the old ex premie forums and when the administration became so sick of the endless arguments and nonsense they walked away, leaving a rudderless internet web site. Brauns was the only one left with ambition and eagerly took the reigns. From that hallowed position and after years of service to the cause he also mananged to salvage the ex premiem chat forum that had also imploded in an orgy of infighting, confusion and malice until all the power hungry had walked, once again leaving the wreckage to the only person with enough time to throw away. So now, thanks to the internet, someone, even a malicious one, can sit in a house in almost any town or country on earth and become someone of international reputation. Perhaps what cyber dwellers don't realise when they start their new life is that their identity and credibility relies on a constant focus of attention and a constant injection of energy, a mission to discuss, a cause, an opinion, anything that fills the cyberspace and grabs people's attention. As soon as it is left alone and time marches on, it dies, they die. So no matter what Brauns and the other critics create on their chat pages, they constantly have to find a new bunch for tommorrow otherwise they fade away. This is very tiring and costly of the time that could be spent in the enjoyment factor of life. No-one with any self respect hangs around. Did Prem Rawat claim divinity? Why not? What the hell is wrong with claiming to admire divinity, to aspire to it? Is there something wrong with being into the mystical stuff? Been to church lately" There they ACTUALLY TALK to GOD. Where have you been hiding gentlemen? We all claim our little private patch of divinity, either that or we are ignorant liars. Why do you call ice cream cold? Prove it is cold! How do you KNOW it is cold? Why do you like the smell of a rose? Prove you like the smell of a rose! Bla bla blab... Raphael Goodsend —This unsigned comment was added by Raphael Goodsend (talk • contribs) .
- Dear Raphael, please limit discussion to the article at hand rather than broad opinion.Momento 14:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- Actually I must confess I don't know what 'the article' at hand is exactly. This is my first time to this site and I am not understanding much how it works, total information overload for me, read through some stuff, too much information to grasp. My response to it all had to be general to cover all I had read. So, this is not like a standard internet chatroom kind of situation, where the topic is fairly wide and often diversifies into different areas? Clearly I have some fine print to wade through if I wish to contribute here, but I have no desire to get sucked into an online discussion actually. Raphael. —This unsigned comment was added by Raphael Goodsend (talk • contribs) .
- Go up to the top of this page and select "article" from the tabs.Momento 14:48, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
- Welcome Rapahel. I have placed some pointers in your talk page so you get be learn about how Wikipedia works. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
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Exactly, Nik. Jossi pretends that he doesn't know who I am, yet associates me with John as ifthat's a bad thing -- Now, that's notable. If it wasn't so sinester, I'd say it was humorous. It's like a dada movie, already! John Brauns is an honest, honorable man. I've never known him to be otherwise. We have had our differences, and still may, but John is living on the ground, so to speak. He's not afraid of the truth. There's nothing to fear from the telling absolute truth. Jossi is making obious innuendos about John, and well, I think it's downright libelous. If that were me, I'd take note of that, document it, consult a lawyer, etc. But, that's just me... Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Mar 26, 2006, 16:49:17
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If I had the money I would launch libel actions against the owner of the one-reality website, Elan Vital in the US, UK and Australia, some of the posters on the premie forum, and these anonymous contributors to Wikipedia, but sadly it would probably take 100s of thousands of dollars to do so.
Anyone want to sponsor me? 
John.
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The strange thing is that it works at work, but not at home on Safari. I have to use Firefox at home. Can't say I get that too much, but haven't taken the time to figure it out.
Oh know, now I've spilled the beans. My boss would throw me out in a second if he knew I was posting from work.
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Oh know, now I've spilled the beans. My boss would throw me out in a second if he knew I was posting from work.I've heard your boss is a bit of a tyrant. Anyway, don't look for a solution to the Safari problem in the near future. In fact, I wouldn't look for one in the far future either. Sorry.  John.
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As far as I can tell, PR doesn't DO anything, except sit around and look "godly.""....These people you mention do not appear to have a clear view of the work Prem Rawat is undertaking in this world right now...." This person is a premie..... they are the only people I hear talking this way: "....this world..." Like there is another world. THIS love, THIS peace, THIS life, etc, etc. It caught my attention immediately. Premie-speak! This person, additionally, is a liar. Isn't involved with PR, my butt!
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