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I'm not going to vote and I'm not going to endorse adding a link, Axis. I'm very fond of Hilltop and he knows how I feel about him. Many people here are fond of him. He's left the forum before for different reasons and he has come back. If he wants to come back, he will do it himself. Do you think it's helpful to bring this up again?
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I fully support the people who run the forum and the decision. But naturally, Hilltop, who puts a lot of heart and soul ( and probably effort ) into his creations- might have taken that decision as a slap in the face? Even if the forum mods really like the art, I can see the decision. I really think what Hilltop does with the altered pics is art and is extremely creative. It gets a lot of messages about Rawat out there and for me is often thought provoking. So maybe sending some messages to Hilltop that we really do love what he does with it, and want to see it but we also want to support the decisions of the people who do the hard work of herding the cats here. Losing Hilltop is a loss. His mind ( ha ha ) is so creative and he seems to always find the right historical data for the conversation. I also feel often whatever "art" he inspired to create is a illustration of the conversation that might be taking place on the forum. I am often pretty amazed by the way his brain works and the creations. I can say that and still understand that maybe its the right thing to keep those intense images off the forum. Personally, for me, I think they are helpful. But if there is reason to think it isn't fufilling the goals of the forum to help people out of the cult and help people who are leaving then I think another site...with the art..is the answer. In this situation I think it may be just the right thing for Hilltop to get the message he is really missed.
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Hi Susan, I agree with what you said and I want Hilltop to come back too. What I find far more valuable than his altered pics are the old publications scans that he places in a thread that absolutely pertain to the discussion, and give us more credibility when we say things about Rawat that are disputed by the cult. I will miss that a lot, but I don't think Hilltop said he wasn't coming back, either, so I don't want to pressure him about it. I don't agree that this forum is "everybody's forum," which a few people have said. It's a website that's owned by John and Mike. People that have blogs all over the web use their discretion to screen comments that are typed to their blogs. There are forums all over the web that have severely restrictive guidelines. I don't see why this is so difficult for folks to grok. I don't think John's request was unreasonable. And now I'm feeling like a broken record on this subject, and don't want to talk about the issue anymore. Hope you're well. 
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 11:32:18
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I don't agree that this forum is "everybody's forum," which a few people have said. It's a website that's owned by John and Mike. People that have blogs all over the web use their discretion to screen comments that are typed to their blogs. There are forums all over the web that have severely restrictive guidelines. I don't see why this is so difficult for folks to grok.When I started this forum I offered Mike joint ownership, but he declined, saying that he was happy just to help with administering it (as well as running his own excellent website), and a very fine job he has done too! Otherwise, what you write is absolutely correct, and I really wish other people would set up ex-premie fora or blogs so that this idea that we are one homogenous community (clearly we are not) with one public face could disappear. John.
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Thanks, John. I guess I haven't read the intro in a while. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Oct 21, 2006, 05:26:22
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TRUTH is ABSOLUTE, nothing ELSE is. This post is ONLY to John. Please people, do not react to this post. If any of you post to me, I will read it, but I cannot make time to respond. ONLY constructive criticisms are accepted. I have little free time. Otherwise, what you write is absolutely correct, (A:No, is not!!!!) and I really wish other people would set up ex-premie fora or blogs so that this idea that we are one homogenous community (clearly we are not) with one public face could disappear. Expect John a post from me later in this thread, regarding the now discussed subject. Thus,I think it should be discussed in the OTHER forum, MO (My opinion), so the TOPIC can be maintained here and the LIGHT needed can remain also here, A GOOD VIBE. Love to you! ~Axis~
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Hi Axis,
Was it in "Axis: Bold As Love" that Jimi Hendrix said the immortal line "You'll never hear surf music again"? Of course you mightn't know anything about Jimi Hendrix though you're a pretty bold poster.
A while back you mentioned that you had a copy of 'Satguru Has Come' or something similar. Could you get my email address from the Forum administrators and contact me about possibly adding some scenes from that classic onto http://ex-premie.org/video/ where Prem Rawat's life and teachings, in his own words, are being collected and revealed.
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you are and I hope you may find your reason! Silly woman. Hi Susan, CYNTHIA: I agree with what you said and I want Hilltop to come back too. Take a brake.
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Are you calling me a hypocrite? Or Cynthia? I am confused it really isn't clear what you mean. Do you mean I am a hypocrite because I agree that the mods might have made the right decision even though I don't like it? Am I the silly woman? Is Cynthia? I really don't get it.
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No, Susan, C is. She posted her opinion nobody ask for, I was suggesting JUST votes. Did u read her post to me, and the ones she wrote on the non-m-forum? Then she turn to you and agrees with you. It needs to stop. I didn't get into a large explanations but simply voiced my opinion. She stings. I do not like discord and do not want her to send BAD vibes to me, I do not need it right now. I do not. This is something old that she doesn't want to resolve WITHIN HERSELF. I am no part of that. She is in denial, in my opinion. She really doesn't want love, but makes fun of IT. She left the cult in the 70s, 80s, I just want her to stop doing what she does best with me, no acceptance here. I left on 2000. You are sweet Susan, is all good. Sorry, I should have posted under her name. be well,
Modified by Axis at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 20:45:46
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I am sort of relieved you don't think I am a hypocrite. Cynthia and I have disagreed but I always feel respected by her even if we don't agree on a topic. On this topic, I agree with you about still being ok to bring up Hilltop, because I think that something as basic as his feelings being really hurt could have happened. I know that I feel really strong that he is a kind soul and I think the whole thing could have just really stung him. So I was up for more we love you Hilltop posts, for sure. I didnt see her post on the other forum. She and I have always been able to discuss our disagreements on any topic while still maintaining our respect for eachother as people. I don't think Cynthia doesn't want love, but I do think she is rightfully CAUTIOUS about love, as well she or anyone should be. I have never ever sensed her making fun of love. I would say try to act in a way you feel respectful of yourself. Saying her post stung is a clear message. Calling her a hypocrite is sort of name calling, and I think its destructive. I am curious about the meaning behind when she left and when you left. I mean sincerely I don't get what that might have to do with this topic. I mean it in all respect to you, but I am seeing hurtful words coming back from you. Maybe more personally directed to her, than she might have meant toward you. On the other hand, maybe there is history between you two I don't understand. I can see how her post could have stung I am suggesting a better way to resolve it would be to say, that HURT Cynthia. I haven't found her to be insensitive at all. When I thought you might be calling me a hypocrite. I took a deep breathe and thought...ok first find out what he really means to say. But if you had said, yep Susan you are a hypocrite, it sure would have stung. I know Cynthia gets hurt like anyone. Probably hurts her too. Better to try to communicate more clearly to resolve it, as I don't sense you are a bad person at all, and I know Cynthia isn't. She is direct, but I like that. You have a right to post what you want. So does she. We don't see eachother faces, expressions or tears here. A lot can be lost and in online communication.
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Thanks Susan. I don'tknow certain "things" and I'm trying at this momeny - took a brake from what I was doing- to clarify what happens around here and why. Why the forum gets this way at times, "stinky"? I do know, all happens for a reason. I have forgiven myself already for my trasngrations against others. Today is a new day. Please Susan, read what I'm going to post to John later on. I agree totally that any similar subject should be taken to the other forum. With much respect, in THAT love/energy/beauty that resides in the hearts of each living thing, and the unseen. Peace to you! ~Axis~
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Axis, I'm not going to respond to your accusations about me. I'm not responsible for how you behave, nor for how you are feeling. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Oct 21, 2006, 05:24:49
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Who is going to put C in her place? Do not talk to me anymore that way. You do not have my permission to communicate to me that way. Get some help, quickly. Do something! Look, I am very disapointed with your patronising way, your silly sense of know it all, and superiority complex, born from insecurities. Do not write any more to me and I promise, except if you say something VERY silly as often you do, I will do the same, then yes, I will be "Jill". You have a SCORPIO complex and YOU LIKE TO STING, as someone said to you, is true. Sweet is better. Stop. You appologize, insincerely, to save face, because so often you are found with "your pants down". I wish you nothing but the best, really, but I am standing for my right to be being here. Take a brake. And anyway, who ask you YOUR opinion? Not me. I wrote what I wrote because I am a free person and foremost, because I have the right to voice my opinion. Close the bag please, I can smell it. The reason for my post was asking to see who wanted and for what I read, many do, so, Shhhh. Quiet down, you can relax and be effective. Do you think is time for your brake, perhaps? If you can post the gansadas you post, hey, you are free, but I do not give you permission to do so. You have a strong need for negative attention and that is not conducive to anything positive, in my opinion. You are rude and manipulative beyond belief. Take that. ~Axis~, who for 26 years received ABUSE from a psychopath, antisocial and who do not wishes anymore to relate to such. Vaya cond DIOS.
Modified by Axis at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 20:02:42
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Hi AxisI think it is you that needs to take a 'brake' - in both senses of the word: 'brake' as in 'slow down', and 'break' as in perhaps stop posting for a day or two. Whatever you think of Cynthia, or anyone else who posts here, it is you that is being abusive. Please calm down, or we will have to make sure you take a break for a while. -- Mike
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... I emailed you a couple of days ago and requested that if you have any complaints about the behaviour of posters here then to write to prtadmin@realemail.net and NOT to post your complaints here.Why have you ignored my request? John.
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I just read your mail! I ask sincerely for forgiveness of all those whom I’ve mistreated. My “simple” post, simple as I wanted to write it, became an Essay.; after I finish writing it, I will post it . Peace, ~Axis~
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Although I think only those who pay taxes on this place should get the vote - you know, no representation without taxation (or something like that).So, I've counted all the votes (three times in case of miscounts), and the vote is unanimous, Hilltop should return. As the site you refer to doesn't exist, I can't make a decision about linking to it. John.
Modified by JHB at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 08:22:04
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I miss his archive work and his more gentle words.
Please.. Hilltop...?
Modified by saph at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 08:29:01
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The polls have closed, the votes have been counted, and it's unanimous - Hilltop should return!
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As with most things I am with you on this.
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Yes, that can be discussed.
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If you click above (to the right) on "Guru Maharaji Info," and look in the links section, then click on "House of Maharaji Drek," there's another link to all of the altered photos by Hilltop. The Frederick and Kaliman photos seem to have a dead link. Hilltop's links can be found under the section "The Gallery" (on Drek's site) which is on the lower part of the page. It's quite a good archive, thanks to Drek! See, all is well. The photos are preserved. Life is good.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 09:15:40
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Can I vote? Where do I begin? 1. Thank You Axis, Susan, Cynthia, Saph, John and others for thinking about me. Your too kind. You made me feel good. 2. Thank You Axis for the vote thing and your kind words. You know that I like you so please don't take offense but there is no need to defend me here esp.with Cynthia, John, etc. OK? I think highly of Cynthia and she was right, I'm taking a break from the forum. I like Cynthia period. 3. Susan is such a sweet heart and so is Saph! 4. I have no interest at this moment of having a site for the altered photos or any kind of a link to them. 5. I might post some unaltered cult information in the future. 6. And maybe most importantly. I sincerely Thank John and Mike for having this forum available to us. They deserve high praise for their efforts. I'm the one who posted things I shouldn't of. Not out of disrepect to John but really out of my dislike for Prem Rawat. Plus I like to laugh. 7. Forgive me for the trouble that I've caused and please keep posting everybody because I like reading here. The altered pictures aren't that important but the words you say are. 8. This is a Great forum with Great people in my opinion. Thank You again for all your kind words. Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Sat, Oct 21, 2006, 20:24:38
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Thank you Hilltop. Forgive me for the trouble that I've caused and please keep posting everybody because I like reading here. The altered pictures aren't that important but the words you say are. From where I sit, there's nothing you did or said that needs to be forgiven. Take care, Cynthia
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Come back when you are ready and if you ever feel like making a home for you art, or Frederic's or whomever...I want to see it!
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Thanks, Hilltop,
for dropping in again, and for your kind comments, It's good to feel the warmth in your words, it was always that which endeared me to your posts: the photos were a pleasant bonus, and not offensive in any real way.
Just obvious charicaturing and humerous debunking of myths proven to be harmful on a large scale to thousands of lives.
Like the humorous cartoons in newspapers during the war depicting dictators and dangerous conquerors in image whithering parody, your humour was a brave and probably effective way of reducing and breaking the grip of false and externally enforced respect, for Maharaji.
Some years back, I experimented with a picture of Maharaji, sensing that the crown and paraphernalia were inducing a suggestion that assisted the conviction we had once of his having a "special divinity".
Still not wishing to actually deface a photo of him, at that time, I placed a sheet of glass over his photo and drew some little devil horns on it, so that they fit over the picture.
It was one of those more recent ones, and to my surprise, the horns looked entirely appropriate, quite suited him in fact.
The effect this had on me was quite powerful. It ranks as one of the larger strides I took away from his silliness.
It didn't seem particularly rude to me, It is only because of the over excessive positive suggestion which has been made by countless programmes and posters, Divine Times, etc. in which photos have been altered to produce an effect that implies he is the "supreme power in person", that such an "inhumane" idea came to me. Remember those buttons with the rainbow mandala sunburst hologram superimposed on ole Guruji lad?
It seemed only fair to me. We don't all go round posturing that we are his divine nibs 'imself in person. After all, it's only looking at both sides: the extremes of the matter.
The next day I was genuinely interested to share my experiment with some loosely connected premies, who were known to be into a range of other religions, meditations and various new age literary enquiries.
I was surprised, amused and shocked at the same time when they reacted with such horror. I thought they might calm down if I explained again that I did not actually deface any actual picture, I used a glass sheet. It didn't matter, the thought of it: "Ahh", They might have been less agitated had they inadvertently set their hair on fire on one my candles.
I have absolutely no way of knowing their views on this or whether they tried the experiment themselves, as they were never seen again, after the cloud of dust and small pebbles subsided. The subsequent amusement I felt was the real clincher, which convinced me my doubts were valid, warranted and well founded.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sun, Oct 22, 2006, 16:17:09
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Hi Saph, I understand where you are coming from. I swear to heck that I had to deprogram myself away from Prem Rawat's cult. It took awhile but over time I woke up about it all. There were no forums or any real truthful information that I knew of back then about Prem Rawat and his "I'm the Lord All Powerful" stuff. And it was still there in my mind. I had to have faith in my own so called "worthless mind" that Prem Rawat said it was, to be able to break free as best I could from the hold he had on me. I remember it clearly, one of the days when I really woke up from thinking that I knew God because of Prem Rawat or Guru Maharaj Ji. And then I did the un-thinkable. I broke once again... one of his commandments, I questioned the doubts I had in my mind about it. So I took photograghs of the Lord (Prem Rawat) and made him look like Hitler and changed his words to be more truthful or funny. I knew then that I was on the right track. It was very helpful to me much like the experience you had Saph. So I can relate to what you have said in your post. I wasn't gonna post for a while but old habits are hard to break. Thanks Saph... Your so good with words. Your friend... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Tue, Oct 24, 2006, 04:04:37
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Hi Hilltop, Nice to see you,Yes the programming goes very deep.
As a premie I just loved Hans Yoga Prakash and one of the biggest fears I had to overcome was from that book.
Here's the chapter
TO LIVE WITHOUT GURU
There are some people who pass their entire lives without ever receiving Knowledge from a Guru. You should know that their lives are meaningless. Whatever they do, it is all in vain. The great sage Narada is famous throughout India for the immense grasp which he had of subjects ranging from astrology to zoology. He used to visit Lord Vishnu personally in Baikunth. Yet each time he left Lord Vishnu’s court, one of Vishnu’s attendants used to dig a hole in the ground where Narada had been standing and take the earth away and throw it in a nearby river. He asked why this was happening and the servant replied, “Narada, you have no Guru, and you pollute the very ground you are standing on.” Then Narada asked Lord Vishnu, “Lord, what need have I for a Guru, when I can visit You in person?” Vishnu replied, “Narada, whether you see me in person or not, it remains true that without a Guru, the life of man is ignorant and unholy.” Many stories are told about how Lord Vishnu directed Narada to visit a certain fisherman and accept him as his Guru; how Narada displeased Lord Vishnu by telling him “Now I have a Guru , but he is only a fisherman..”; how Lord Vishnu pronounced that he should be made to live again the whole cycle of evolution, because he spoke the word “but” while referring to his Guru Maharaj Ji; and how Narada returned to his Guru and threw himself on his Guru’s mercy, and was saved by his Guru’s grace from Lord Vishnu’s judgement. The great sage Sukhdeva was already Lord of Yogis while he was still in his mother’s womb. He remained for several years in his mother’s womb, not wishing to come out into the sway of this material world. At last when he could avoid birth no longer, he came out of his mother, and ran straight away into the forest to meditate. Yet even he could not experience perfect peace of mind, and finally he approached his father, Sage Vyas, and asked him why his austere life was not bringing him satisfaction. Vyas told him it was because he did not have Knowledge of the Self that he could not experience peace, and that all his lonely pilgrimages and fasts were of no avail. Vyas could very well have taught Sukhdev that most holy secret, but he considered that because Sukhdev was his son, familiarity would prevent Sukhdev from showing a proper respect to him as his Guru. So he sent him to a great soul known as King Janaka, to ask humbly for the Knowledge. And many are the tales told of the tests King Janaka put him through, before he would bestow that Knowledge on him. All scriptures agree that charitable good works, the telling of rosaries and all other pious acts are of no value, unless one is the disciple of Satguru. Sukhdev was refused admission to heaven because he tried to serve God without first taking a Guru, says Kabir. Even though he was Lord of Yogis from his very birth, it was not until he accepted the great King Janaka as his Guru that he was able to enter the kingdom of heaven. People who talk about the practice of the presence of God, but who are not the disciples of the Satguru, are like prostitutes who proclaim they would gladly die for love of their clients, says Kabir.
Modified by Jethro at Tue, Oct 24, 2006, 04:58:11
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Jethro interesting to read that ........ and funny really that such stories could ever had had any hold over us. ..tales with about as much credibility as 'Little Red Riding Hood'. A sage validated by his knowledge of astrology to zoology and a baby that delays its birth for many years, pops out, goes for a jog, meditates and still isn't satisfied. The self-serving bullshit of generations of conmen all dressed up as timeless wisdom thanks for posting that Tim
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Hi Jethro, Yes! Thank You for posting that. No wonders we had such a hard time breaking away from the scams and regaining our freedom. This is a perfect example for sure. Just like the old Prem Rawat satsangs... it's not a pleasant thing to read esp. if you think these words hold the truth. Thanks Again Jethro. Hilltop
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