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......but I don't think Momento understands what it sounds like when said with the neccessary slight note of incredulity in the voice, especially in those parts of the English speaking world where 'mental' is used as a lowlife adjective to describe people who 'lose it' on a regular basis.
Just perfect.
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Some Dutch DLM publications simply left the word "mind" untranslated. Andries
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Hi Andries, Some Dutch DLM publications simply left the word "mind" untranslated. Then what do you call "the mind?" How do you refer to it? I'm curious.
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Aug 31, 2006, 09:55:47
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In Dutch and German the words "geest" and "Geist" respectively are both translated with mind or spirit. In other words, the word geest/Geist is a mix of the words mind and spirit. the I can feel/see the difference in connotation between mind and spirit, but I do not know the exact difference in meaning between the words. Sometimes the Sanskrit word manas was used for the mind in the Dutch SSB movement. In the SSB movement we also used the term monkey mind for the mind that got attached to wordly pleasures. SSB explained that putting sweets in bottle with a narrow opening was a way to catch a monkey, because it could not pull out its hand anymore when they had the sweets in its hand. This term was left untranslated in Dutch. Andries
Modified by Andries at Thu, Aug 31, 2006, 14:40:01
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I came to this re-interpretation of the monkey-mind story too (independently from EPO). I do not fully understand how it is possible that I was so open-minded before I became an SSB devotee and gradually became unopen to evidence of being wrong and even a fanatic believer. Of course, this has a lot to do with in the beginning - lack of rigor on my part
- propaganda by the SSB movement,
- lack of information,
- very biased negative information
- naivety about the lack of rigor by other devotees and the possible deception by SSB and higher ranking officals in Sathya Sai Organisation
- My interest in religious matters and spiritual seekership
Later it had to do with the following - social and emotional investments
- many miracles stories that I heard for which I had no rational explanation.
Andries
Modified by Andries at Sat, Sep 02, 2006, 15:42:20
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Yeah, I got a laugh out of "mental leader." But, the Rawat premie shuffle has begun. Here are Jossi and Momento's attempts to dance around, trying not to come up with a label for Premmy Rawat. "Advocate for Peace," lol... Rawat isn't notable anymore. His only claim to fame was being the boy lord of the universe and, ummm, they can't say that! - Hello Peter. I will check the paper encyclopedias to see how they have defined Prem Rawat in these. There are several listed in the references. May take me a couple of days. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest "an advocate of peace", he is not a "spiritual leader" and whilst he may teach a meditation, it is not an appropriate description.Momento 22:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- "advocate of peace" doesn't establish notability. Out of all people I know, perhaps half are advocates of peace. The intro sentence should not only be concise and corrrect, it should also establish notability. --Pjacobi 07:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Aug 31, 2006, 06:02:45
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Hi Cynthia, hope life is treating you well? I have been following, more out of of amusement really, the Prem Rawat wiki talk page. Seeing the premie participants there dancing around what Rawat 'is' moves the debate to an altogether higher level of comedy. I think Jossi and Momento are looking over their shoulders towards their dear leader, not wanting to box him in with a label of some sort. They are probably remembering the time when Rawat said in very forceful terms that he hated being called an 'inspirational teacher'. Clearly Rawat is a leader of some sort. But what of? From my point of view, and I'm sure yours, he is a leader of a cult. However that term is often thought as pejorative and the powers at Wiki have deemed it necessary that such pejorative terms should not be attached to living persons in the normal course of events. Therefore, using NPOV practices, Rawat could usefully be described as a leader of a new religious movement with a suitable link to the NRM page. Really, Jossi and Momento should just bite the bullet and call Rawat this (or something similar) as all the evidence is that Rawat is the leader of such a religious movement. The vast majority of his followers are based in India and these followers will, I'm sure, agree with the notion that Rawat helps in their religious and spiritual practices. T
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Hi T, I've been having a great summer. My motto this season has been relax more, work less. It's been autumnal here. 39 degs. F last night!! Seeing the premie participants there dancing around what Rawat 'is' moves the debate to an altogether higher level of comedy. I think Jossi and Momento are looking over their shoulders towards their dear leader, not wanting to box him in with a label of some sort. They are probably remembering the time when Rawat said in very forceful terms that he hated being called an 'inspirational teacher'. That's exactly what's happening, but you said it better. Jossi and Momento want to avoid this topic so much they're making up new terms. "An advocate for peace," had me spitting coffee this morning. Clearly Rawat is a leader of some sort. But what of? He's the leader of financial and real estate acquisitions with OPM's (Other People's Money). While it's not on any legal papers, he's Chairman of the Board, but that would be insulting to Frank Sinatra. Really, Jossi and Momento should just bite the bullet and call Rawat this (or something similar) as all the evidence is that Rawat is the leader of such a religious movement. That's right. And they have the sociologists to back them up, but the problem is that right on EV/TPRF's websites, Rawat's distinctly described as not being a leader of a religion, spiritual path, etc., so to state on the article that he's a leader of a NRM would have to be explained in the text to justify calling him that. Oh what a tangled web they weave when first they practice... Führer I love it.
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Aug 31, 2006, 09:51:46
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Lets spell it out: An advocate for peace Rawat is nothing of the kind. Unless of course one is going to engage in absurd semantic contortions - which is not what the Wiki editor was looking for. Merriam Webster gives : advocate - one that defends or maintains a cause or proposal peace - 4 a : a state or period of mutual concord between governments b : a pact or agreement to end hostilities between those who have been at war or in a state of enmity Rawat has never said that "peace" as defined above is a desirable thing, has never argued with anyone supporting conflict, has never challenged any Government, movement or individual that promotes conflict. He has no commitment to any ideal that encopasses 'peace' as it is understood by any reasonable person. He neither defends 'peace', nor does he maintain 'peace' as a cause or even as a proposal. All Rawat has is a set of stock slogans that promotes his Knowledge as being a source of personal peace and from that theorises that this could somehow translate into some kind of supra societal 'peacefulness' if everyone practiced it. Somehow I don't think we'll be seeing that intro paragraph anytime soon. I guess Jossi could try quoting the Geaves line "Rawat used to front an NRM but it's not religious these days so it's a New (no longer Religious) Movement, which makes Rawat the charismatic (sociologically defined) inspirational non leader of of an N(olR)M. Nik
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Well said, Nik. What's a N(olR)M? Here's Momento's response to PJacobi's comment: "advocate of peace" doesn't establish notability. Out of all people I know, perhaps half are advocates of peace. The intro sentence should not only be concise and corrrect, it should also establish notability. --Pjacobi 07:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC) - PR's notability results from the fact that he has been a vocal "advocate of peace" since the age of 4. Were half the people you know talking at meetings about peace at aged [sic] four? Did any of them address a million people on the subject whilst still at school? And did any of your friends address over a milliion people about peace last year? Momento 20:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
He's arguing that his ???GMJ is greater than PJacobi's friends. Hahaha. Sorry for sounding like such a bitch about those guys, but watching the mental pretzel making in Jossi's and Momento's writing is giving me gafaws again this morning. They don't know what to call Rawat, because Rawat doesn't know what to call himself. So many prevarications, fabrications, and bold-faced lies. What gets me is I can't believe they take themselves so seriously about it. Scary.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Sep 01, 2006, 08:47:11
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What's a N(olR)M? should have been N(nlr)M - New (no longer religious) Movement 
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Really, Jossi and Momento should just bite the bullet and call Rawat this (or something similar) as all the evidence is that Rawat is the leader of such a religious movement. That's right. And they have the sociologists to back them up, but the problem is that right on EV/TPRF's websites, Rawat's distinctly described as not being a leader of a religion, spiritual path, etc., so to state on the article that he's a leader of a NRM would have to be explained in the text to justify calling him that. Oh what a tangled web they weave when first they practice... Believe me, idiots like Jossi and Momento won't explain anything. They'll just claim they never said it in the first place. Evidence means nothing to them. You have to remember Cynthia that these halfwits live in never-never land and can say whatever they want. And by their very act of saying it, it magically becomes true. Far out, huh!
Modified by Steve at Thu, Aug 31, 2006, 22:35:03
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Steve, You have to remember Cynthia that these halfwits live in never-never land and can say whatever they want. And by their very act of saying it, it magically becomes true. Far out, huh! That's the long and short of it. 
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The only reason why Rawat was ever notable was because he was the figurehead and (later the) leader of the cult/NRM DLM. Andries
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>because he was the figurehead and (later the) leader< Yes. But what does that mean ? How has Rawat exercised 'leadership' ? What are the dynamics that interplay between 'the leader' and those who have legal responsibilites for the running of the organisations ? What are the limits of 'leadership' ? Is the leader falable ? If so how are the mistakes of the leader addressed ? As premies have spent 35 years avoiding those questions it seems unlikely they will accept a description of Rawat as 'leader' of anything. N
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Reputable sources describe Rawat as a religious leader and as the leader of the DLM. If Wikipedia is not pestered by (willingly) ignorant premies then this should be included in the article and remain so. I cannot see a good reason not to write this down as a fact. Andries
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Hello Cynthia The editor has my sympathy. I know very little about Wiki or how it works but it does seem a bit rum to ask for inclusion in an encyclopedia, which by its nature must classify topics so that it can be searchable and then insist on a self definition which is no more than a litany of negatives. Someone objective presumably has to add some summary that says something and some searchable key words at some stage? best Tim
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Just attach the tag "asshole" and he can be found easily.
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"Asshole," but it's not worth reading. 
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Sep 01, 2006, 08:53:50
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This is getting hilarious!
Latest update has Pjacobi saying he doesn't want K described as an "experience", saying it "sounds too pompous"!
Modified by cq at Fri, Sep 01, 2006, 09:22:40
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I know, it's really funny. I've been spitting coffee every morning this week reading that. It's much more fun to observe that talk page than write on it! Meanwhile, Jossi Fresco throws the encyclopedias at PJacobi, hoping, I suppose, that he can snow him over with drivel. The more words to obsfucate the better! Too bad Jossi doesn't realize he's talking to a real person, not another cult member. He's so obvious.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Sep 01, 2006, 11:11:02
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