Neville,

Of course not, because murder is bad by definition. But Andries is at the stage where he is still trying to establish--with dogged patience--whether or not a 'murder' has taken place.

That's just not true.  And btw, sexual assault of children is bad by definition. Andries is well aware of that, or should be.  I was frankly astonished on how ill-informed he is about the subject of rape and sexual abuse of children, given he's been out of his cult for so long and discussing the issue for quite some time.  And he discusses this at length with supposed authority in many different places concerning his former cult.  So, today, I threw up my hands and said, "Okay, here's yet another person in the twenty-first century who doesn't know about this sexual assault stuff, I suppose it's my job to educate them."  Andries is fully aware that his guru is a perpetrator of sexual assault.  It's proven.

I contend that destructive cults are bad by definition and that's where Andries and I part ways in a big way.  He knows that and we have argued about it before.  Andries doesn't believe in mind control..  Andries agrees, so far as I can tell, with the sociologists of NRMs such as Melton, Barker, Introvigne, and many more, that mind-control is a big invention by Margret Singer and Robert Lifton.  These sociologists base this belief on one 1983 study, lead by Singer that was not rejected as a basis for proof that brainwashing/mind-control exists, but deterimined to be inclusive on the basis that there wasn't enough evidence and funding to continue the study sponsored by the APA, or American Psychology Association. These sociologists, btw, are not psychiatrists or psychologists,  therefore, none of them are qualified to even know for sure or conduct their own studies, yet they've now made it their mission in life to flaunt that one inconclusive study as final proof and evidence that mind control can't, doesn't, and never existed.  They reference it everywhere.  They smear the good names of Singer, Lifton and all the good people who actually help former cult members.  That's Andries's camp.  I'm in Singer's camp. So this isn't about Andries's leaving his own cult, Neville, it's about a huge argument that extends all over by cult experts and sociologists.  Not about his journey out of his own cult.  He really hasn't presented himself here that way and this isn't an ex-sai-baba devotee forum anyway.

Andries has had all of the resources available to him as I have to inform himself about NRMs and cults.  He draws vastly different conclusions that I do and he distorts the facts when they are staring him in the face -- particular facts about our cult.  So I go back, over and over over again to correct his factual errors and yes, I lose patience, oh yes I do lose patience.  I'm no saint and don't proclaim to be. 

Plus, it wasn't even until today that he admitted he isn't a scholar or a scholar in study, but a lay-person gathering facts, just like me.  [So I feel somewhat mislead by him today because he signs his name elsewhere with a Ph.D.  Today he told me doesn't have credentials!  He may have a Ph.D., in what I don't know.  I lose patience with people, and yes, get angry with people who I believe mislead me.]

Note:  The above-bracketed sentences were incorrect and my mistake.  Rather than remove the paragraph, I'm highlighting is as my error with apologies to Andries for misspeaking.

Cynthia

So, Neville, instead of bitching at me, for bitching at Andries, why don't you and Paddy, and now Rob who I see has started a whole new thread addressed to Andries above, and anyone else is so unhappy with my approach, go ahead and educate yourself on the issues of NRMs, the sociologists, the cult experts, all the issues and controversies and YOU enter into a conversation with him about this?!?

I can provide you with about a hundred links to a few thousand articles, books, and experts on all sides of the issue if you'd care to take the time to catch up and come back and talk to Andries about all these things.

Some people have been on his case from the get go. Some people have never given him any slack.

You've missed a lot of posts.  Maybe I am territorial about the forum. So what?  I wonder why that would be?  Hmmm???  Read any "other" websites lately, Neville?!? 

Cynthia