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Posted by:
13 ®

12/26/2016, 02:44:28
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I admired the calmness and stoicism of Germans interviewed on the radio after the truck slaughter. It may not be typical, and I'm sure not universal, but I liked what I heard.

Jim wants me to try to justify why this is so admirable as opposed to weak and ineffectual.

Jim, calmness and stoicism doesn't limit some response. Panic does. I've been on sinking boats and in burning houses, and I know which sort of response I prefer to be surrounded by.

So, simply responding in a calm and stoic way is not the same as not doing anything. 

The terrorists want to inspire terror. That's why we name them that way. I think it's preferable to not give them what they want.






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The German reaction is almost insane
Re: Germany -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/26/2016, 07:38:17
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Panic is an irrational reaction to danger but then so is inappropriate calmness. What you want is a strong, rational and principled reaction. If the danger persists, as it does here, you're going to need real bravery. Sometimes that means the bravery to make tough choices especially if those choices defy entrenched politically correct dogma. Stoicism is only relevant when one's burdened by unavoidable suffering and doesn't want to give in to unseemly complaining which can't assuage the suffering and might further reduce morale. 

Some of what Germany has done before and since the attack is insane. Forget about allowing the migrants in to begin with. Here, authorities knew exactly how dangerous this guy was but couldn't kick him out, couldn't imprison him and obviously couldn't effectively monitor him. They failed totally to fulfill their prime responsibility, to protect citizens. Worse, after the attack when he was on the run, armed and dangerous and presumed to be ready to strike again, they withheld circulating his picture because they were afraid of seeming racist. Afterwards, it now appears that the victims can't sue anyone or collect victims' compensation because the attack is being categorized as a "car accident". I'm only guessing about this next bit but I'm assuming that Germany's a "no fault" jurisdiction. Hahaha. 

And back to the German people - when Nigel Farage dared to tweet the obvious truth that this was Merkel's fault, those calm, stoic Germans jumped all over him hysterically as if that was the worst thing anyone could say. Trigger the cheap sentiment. Calm and stoic is how we want our sheep to act when they're being slaughtered. 






Modified by Jim at Mon, Dec 26, 2016, 08:07:33

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You're making the same mistake you always make
Re: The German reaction is almost insane -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/26/2016, 08:05:16
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I praised the calm stoicism of the German shoppers, who were back to their Christmas markets, undeterred by the terrorist threat. 

They're just shoppers. Not security people or government officials. All they could do was to shop or not to shop. They chose to shop.

But you go on to conflate this stoicism with what you regard as in insufficient reaction from the German government, as if Germans were a homogeneous mass all with the same responses and responsibilities. It's how you talk about Muslims too for the most part, not really bothering to differentiate the various sects, or bothering about the difference between fundamentalist crazies and your regular fellow who happens to be Muslim.

Then on top of that, you condemn the actions of the security people, when obviously you don't have any more inside knowledge about their operations than I do. No doubt the perpetrators' image was circulated throughout Europe, which is how the Italian cops got him. Perhaps the German security people were afraid of triggering reprisals against anyone who looked like him. I saw two images of him, and they hardly looked like the same person, so it would have been easy to make a mistake.

You hear something about the German response, and use it to colour your judgement of the inadequacy of the government and the security services. And from the little you know about how the security services have acted, you draw all kinds of conclusions about how they are hindered in their actions by PC sensitivities.

You think you know far more than you actually do. You make an awful lot up.






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Is Gatestone also confused and lying?
Re: You're making the same mistake you always make -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/26/2016, 08:49:25
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  • Of the 1.2 million migrants who arrived in Germany in 2014 and 2015, only 34,000 found work.

  • Angela Merkel went to lay white roses at the scene of the Christmas market attack in Berlin. Thousands of Germans did the same. Many brought candles and cried. But anger and the will to combat the threat remained largely absent.

  • Nothing better describes the present state of Germany than the sad fate of Maria Landenburger, a 19-year-old girl, murdered at the beginning of December. A member of a refugee relief organization, Landenburger was among those who welcomed migrants in 2015. She was raped and murdered by one of the people she was helping. Her family asked anyone who wanted to pay tribute to their daughter to give money to refugee associations, so that more refugees could come to Germany.

  • The law that condemns incitement to hatred, presumably intended to prevent a return to Nazi ideas, is held like a sword over whoever speaks too harshly of the growing Islamization of the country.

  • The great majority of the Germans do not want to see that Germany is at war, because a merciless enemy has declared war on them. They do not want to see that war has been declared on Western civilization. They accept defeat and docilely do what jihadists want them to do: they submit.

  • If Angela Merkel does not see the difference between Jews exterminated by the Nazis, and Muslims threatening to exterminate Christians, Jews and other Muslims, she is even more clueless than it seems.

The attack in Berlin on December 19, 2016 was predictable. German Chancellor Angela Merkel created the conditions that made it possible. She bears an overwhelming responsibility. Geert Wilders, a member of Parliament in the Netherlands and one of Europe's only clear-sighted political leaders, accused her of having blood on her hands. He is right.

When she decided to open the doors of Germany to hundreds of thousands of Muslims from the Middle East and more distant countries, she must have known that jihadists were hidden among the people flooding in. She also must have known that the German police had no way of controlling the mass that entered and would be quickly overwhelmed by the number of people it would have to control. She did it anyway.

When hundreds of rapes and sexual assaults took place in Cologne and other cities in Germany on last year's New Year's Eve, she said that the perpetrators should be punished "regardless of their origin", but she did not change her policy. When attacks took place in Hanover, Essen, Wurzburg, and Munich, she delayed comments, then pronounced sanitized sentences on the "need" to fight crime and terror. But she still did not change policy.

She only changed her position recently, it seems because she wants to be a candidate again in 2017, and saw her popularity declining.

The comments she made immediately after the December 19 attacks were mind-numbing. She saidthat "if the perpetrator is a refugee", it will be "very difficult to bear" and it will be "particularly repugnant for all Germans who help refugees on a daily basis."

Such remarks could be considered simply naïve if someone were not informed, but Angela Merkel does not have that excuse. She could not ignore warningsfrom German and U.S. intelligence services saying that Islamic State terrorists hiding among refugees were planning to use trucks in Christmas-related attacks. The situation endured by Germans has been extremely difficult to bear for more than a year. Crime had "skyrocketed"; diseases extinct for decades have been brought in with no vaccines -- long since discontinued -- to treat them; second homes are seized by the government without compensation to shelter migrants, and so on. It did not take long to discover that the main suspect in the Berlin attack was an asylum seeker living in a refugee shelter.

In another country, Merkel might have been shamed into resigning; in Germany, she is running for re-election.

The German population is aged and the birthrate is dangerously low: 1.38 children per woman. The immigrants are replacing the German population, which has been disappearing little by little. The Germans who pass away are the Christians or, more often, non-religious secularists. As everywhere in Europe, Christianity is disappearing; the immigrants replacing the Germans are Muslim.

The German economy is still strong but running out of steam. Returns on invested capital are declining. At a time when human capital is the main source of profits, German human capital is collapsing: people from underdeveloped countries cannot easily replace highly educated Germans. Most do not have marketable skills; newcomers remain long unemployed and dependent. Of the 1.2 million migrants who arrived in Germany in 2014 and 2015, only 34,000 found work. If the unemployment rate is low, it is because there is a growing shortage of labor: today 61% Germans are between 20 and 64 years old. It is expected that by mid-century, the figure will fall to 41%.

Politically correct propaganda speeches that are inexhaustibly broadcast in Germany -- as in the rest of Europe -- never speak of demography. Instead, they refute any evidence that the German economy is not doing well. They also say that Islam and Christianity are equivalent; they are obstinately blind to the fact that Islam is more than a religion: it is a political, economic, and moral system that encompasses all aspects of life, and has never coexisted long or peacefully in a culture different from it. These speeches almost totally ignore the rise of radical Islam and jihadist terrorism; instead, they argue that radical Islam is a marginal cult, and that jihadist terrorism only recruits lone wolves or the mentally ill. Above all, they constantly repeat that any criticism of migration or Islam is ignominious and racist.

The German population is intimidated with fear, both by the antisocial behavior of many migrants and by the speech police of their own governments. Many Germans do not even dare to speak. Those who use public transportation resign themselves to insults. They bend their head and run for refuge to their homes. Attendance in restaurants and theaters is falling sharply. Women have become resigned to wearing "modest" outfits and are careful to not go out alone. Protests organized by Pegida (Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West) have never attracted more than a few thousand people after a photograph of its founder was released in which he was styled as Hitler.

The Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, which calls for a halt to Muslim immigration to Germany and keeps on winning more votes, nevertheless remains a minority party. The law that condemns incitement to hatred (Volksverhetzung), presumably intended to prevent a return to Nazi ideas, is held like a sword over whoever speaks too harshly of the growing Islamization of the country.

On December 20, Angela Merkel went to lay white roses at the scene of the Christmas market attack. Thousands of Germans did the same. Many brought candles and cried. But anger and the will to combat the threat remained largely absent. After a few weeks, the page will be turned -- until next time.

Nothing better describes the present state of Germany than the sad fate of Maria Landenburger, a nineteen-year-old girl, murdered at the beginning of December. Maria Landenburger, a member of a refugee relief organization, was among those who welcomed migrants in 2015. She was raped and murdered by one of the people she was helping. Her family asked anyone who wanted to pay tribute to their daughter to give money to refugee associations, so that more refugees could come to Germany.

The great majority of the Germans do not want to see that Germany is at war, because a merciless enemy has declared war on them. They do not want to see that war has been declared on Western civilization.

They accept defeat and docilely do what jihadists want them to do: they submit.

In analyzing the December 19 attack on the Christmas market, German journalist Josef Joffe, editor of Die Zeit,explained Angela Merkel's decision to welcome refugees as "an act of atonement" and a way to welcome a threatened population, seven decades after the Holocaust. He also explained the passivity of many Germans by a feeling of collective guilt.

If Joffe is right, if Angela Merkel does not see the difference between Jews exterminated by the Nazis, and Muslims threatening to exterminate Christians, Jews and other Muslims, she is even more clueless than it seems.

If many Germans are filled with collective guilt to the point that they want to compensate for what Germany did to the Jews by welcoming hundreds of thousands of Muslims many of whom openly state that they want to replace Germany's Judeo-Christian culture with Islam, and who are replacing its Christian population with a Muslim one -- that will include ruthless killers in its ranks -- it shows that Germans today either detest themselves so much that they desire their own destruction, or that they have simply lost their will to stand up for what they care about -- an act otherwise known as surrender.

Dr. Guy Millière, a professor at the University of Paris, is the author of 27 books on France and Europe.






Modified by Jim at Mon, Dec 26, 2016, 08:54:07

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You posted a lot of text
Re: Is Gatestone also confused and lying? -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/26/2016, 09:02:54
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Without addressing the point I made. 






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Re: You posted a lot of text
Re: You posted a lot of text -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/26/2016, 09:15:45
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I'm driving through Jamaica to Bob Marley's birthplace. Read it and see how it does address your comments. If you still want more after let me know but I think this article totally refutes your position. 





Modified by Jim at Mon, Dec 26, 2016, 09:16:58

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Re: You posted a lot of text
Re: Re: You posted a lot of text -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/26/2016, 11:38:42
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I read it already before I responded to you. But that stuff is readily available on the net, and it is pretty familiar. And it certainly didn't address the issues I posted about, which really, is personal to you and not answerable by quoting someone else's words. But if you don't want to answer that's fine. Enjoy your holiday. 






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I'm just left scratching my head
Re: Re: You posted a lot of text -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/26/2016, 17:49:57
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I can't believe that a, you can read this article and still think as you do and b, don't think that this piece addresses your points and questions handily. But I don't care. I'll go back and respond to your post on my own then. To ME, it's YOU who's always playing the same game, minimizing, minimizing, denying, positing false equivalences and the like. Put it this way, and it's not like you're the only person with your frame of mind. I've encountered so many over time. And it's always like driving a car onto a soft beach. Nothing's easy. Nothing's simple, fast or clear. I know you blame me - I'm too sloppy, uninformed, paranoid, bigoted, lazy, irrational, alarmist .... it's all about me. MY fault, MY inability to grasp the issues fairly or even say a single intelligent word on the subject. Yeah, I know. I'm SO STUPID. 

But I'll get back to your post itself now. Certainly don't want you to think I'm trying to get away with anything. 

And yeah, today was incredible. Marley's home in the hills, then Turtle Falls which was one of the prettiest places we've seen. Yesterday we visited Turely down on the south coast at Treasure Beach. Went to his friend's wonderful fsmily party, headstone ceremony and Rasta day out. Long drive but worth it. Special people, special place. 







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One specific error of yours
Re: You're making the same mistake you always make -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/26/2016, 18:26:27
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Your speculation as to why the Germans didn't disseminate the attacker's picture is wrong. As this article and the enclosed German media link prove, it was to avoid inciting "racial hatred":


https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/12/german-pol-prevented-cops-from-publishing-pics-of-berlin-jihadi-during-manhunt-for-fear-of-inciting-racial-hatred

In other words, they most definitely put civilizans at further risk and hamstrung the effort to find and arrest or kill him to serve some outrageous politically correct madness. 

Hey, it worked out in the end. Amri didn't kill anyone else and was eventually found. But it could have gone differently and quite possibly because of this outrageous decision. You can see how your wishful thinking goes nowhere. Isn't it time for you to readjust your coordinates? How often do you have to miss stuff before you do a full course correction?















Modified by Jim at Mon, Dec 26, 2016, 18:55:03

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Re: One specific error of yours
Re: One specific error of yours -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

12/27/2016, 01:15:13
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Are other refugees who might have been mistaken for Amri not also civilians? Lynch mobs aren't healthy either, which is what Steffen says he was trying to avoid. That's not the same thing as saying the bloke is hamstrung with political correctness. There was a wounded policeman, but apart from that, the man hunt worked out just fine. It could have gone a lot worse.






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Oh wow ...
Re: Re: One specific error of yours -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 08:21:39
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No wonder you admire the German broad spread denial. You're just as bad. Your thoughts on this are irrational. I'm done. There's no point trying to reason with you. The problem will get worse and worse and worse and you will continue to minimize, rationalize, deny, avoid, do all these leftist funny chicken dance moves. 





Modified by Jim at Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 09:09:50

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You are 100 percent wrong on the facts!
Re: Re: One specific error of yours -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 08:38:53
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As your trustworthy BBC explains, the authorities lost track of Amri for days. They had no trail at all. He was only killed when he pulled a gun on an unsuspecting cop at a routine stop in Milan. 


https://www.google.ca/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38425945?client=safari

So how in the hell do you come off accusing me of making things up when you are the one who's guilty of that, bullshitting about how the authorities distributed his picture through Europe so the Italian police were able to find him? That was crap. Admit it. Amri could easily have struck again or, at minimum, as he tried to do, kill that cop. Of course if he did, you'd probably praise the citizens of Milan for being calm and stoic if they just celebrated the young cop's life with sincere, if worthless sentiment. 







Modified by Jim at Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 08:57:43

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This is incorrect
Re: One specific error of yours -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
aunt bea ®

12/27/2016, 09:26:21
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I am not interesting in joining this discussion, but you should at least get your facts straight. The Bundespolizei, the German equivalent of the FBI released the name and picture of the suspect. This was then published in German and I suppose international media right away.

What this article refers to but frames to appear as something else, is that the Hamburg politician Steffen delayed release of the image of the suspect on the website of the Hamburg police. So while his decision might be questioned, its consequences were trivial. The Hamburg police would have had the picture anyway and the public would have had the picture from the media.

This was also an isolated incident relating only to the police website in that particular city and perhaps one other. In general the picture was released all over.

To put this in context, unlike in the US, in Germany the pictures and names of suspects are almost never made public before that person is found guilty in a trial. So this was a big exception and I guess some kind of special permission is required.






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Re: This is incorrect
Re: This is incorrect -- aunt bea Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 10:00:23
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Fine. So only one jurisdiction chose political correctness over public safety. It doesn't change the fact that John was wrong claiming that the Italian cops found him. He just made that up. 





Modified by Jim at Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 10:01:55

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Even that is wrong
Re: Re: This is incorrect -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
aunt bea ®

12/27/2016, 11:25:14
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With the suspect's face plastered all over the media, having his face on the police website or not did not compromise public safety in Hamburg either. Who even looks at the police website?

And as I understand it, it had nothing to do with the Hamburg police themselves but simply the hamfisted decision of the politician who had to give them the local authority to publish. This is small anecdote about a dopey local politician who made a meaningless gesture. To distort that to make it mean that the German authorities nationwide compromised public safety, as both the article you quote and you in turn did, is big fat lie. That is all I am going to say on this.






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You are in denial
Re: Even that is wrong -- aunt bea Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 12:09:21
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You are like 13, both typical liberals who will fight to the death for the right to not fight to the death. Germany fucked up. They should never have let these migrants in like they did and there's no end in sight to how bad this is going to get. That's the truth. 






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Even Der Spiegel admits that "calm and stoic" is insane
Re: This is incorrect -- aunt bea Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 10:07:55
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Read this, a liberal German admitting that it must be a form of madness to just shrug this off:

http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-1127126.html






Related link: http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-1127126.html

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Also wrong, but that should be obvious to anyone. (nt)
Re: Even Der Spiegel admits that "calm and stoic" is insane -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
aunt bea ®

12/27/2016, 11:26:14
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How? He keeps saying there must be something wrong with him
Re: Also wrong, but that should be obvious to anyone. (nt) -- aunt bea Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 12:02:55
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Modified by Jim at Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 12:43:33

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Here's what I find wrong
Re: How? He keeps saying there must be something wrong with him -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

12/27/2016, 13:05:16
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Nothing to do with the reaction.

We're expected to believe the assassin's passport was found under the driver's seat...a couple of days later. Even the dumbest retard keeps his passport in an inside jacket pocket, but ok if this one was exceptionally careless he could've dropped it. However, the design of the driver's seat on those vehicles is very different to those on a car. They're pneumatic & connected to the air braking system to give an extra independent layer of suspension. The whole mechanism is surrounded by a corrugated rubber boot which encloses the entire space from the bottom of the seat to the floor, into which it is fixed. So anything found under the seat must've been deliberately inserted with some difficulty. Why would he do that?

There's more to this than we're being told, it seems to me.






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Re: Here's what I find wrong
Re: Here's what I find wrong -- PatD Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/27/2016, 14:54:37
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That's interesting. What's your speculation? That they probably were even more on top of this than disclosed and wanted to make it seem like they needed more time and evidence - the ID - to know who it was?






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Re: Here's what I find wrong
Re: Re: Here's what I find wrong -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

12/27/2016, 17:41:54
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Something like that. If the id came from the passport then they had that within an hour or so of the incident because he must've either dropped it accidentally or thrown it on the floor on purpose as a calling card, not spent time with a heavy duty screwdriver or a crowbar in order to hide it under the seat.

Why it took them so long to get the wanted posters out can be explained, maybe, by political interference in the police process.






Modified by PatD at Tue, Dec 27, 2016, 17:47:34

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Der Spiegel in denial and Obama gone rogue
Re: Even Der Spiegel admits that "calm and stoic" is insane -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/28/2016, 09:48:26
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I'm addicted to Der Spiegel. It's fascinating. No matter what happens, all it can do is rhe politically correct chicken dance. Article after article anxiously patting good Germans on the head for being calm and stoic until the next slaughter and expending all its fervour attacking those big, bad people on the right - sorry, make that the FAR right, the EXTREME right, who don't want to pretend that the government's failed in its fundamental duty to protect its citizens. 

Meanwhile, this is what I think Trump should do about Obama's treachery against Israel:

Totally unprecedented abuse of power by a lame duck president in the last days of office, secretly, nefariously pretending he didn't initiate it, defying all convention, history, historical relationship with close ally, expectations and wishes of both government representatives and the people, an unexpected, rogue, act that threatens the very nature of democracy. In this unique circumstance, Trump can and should simply declare the resolution null and void as if the US vetoed it as it would have mere days after Obama conjured it up and pushed it through. He should take the position that the UN is a voluntary membership organization and the US never agreed to be bound by the last-minute outrageous trickery of a rogue president. It just won't. As far as he's concerned, the resolution never happened or, if it did, the US vetoed it. It never passed. And if anyone challenges that, any country complains and says "too late, the motion passed and you're stuck with it" Trump should say "No I'm not" and act accordingly. Let's see how many countries actually try to force the US to do otherwise. 








Modified by Jim at Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 09:57:20

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Obama gone rogue
Re: Der Spiegel in denial and Obama gone rogue -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

12/28/2016, 10:33:40
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With Obama  having recently given Israel 38 Billion dollars, the largest military aid package ever, how could not vetoing  against the world's stance on apartheid be treachery?  His administration has repeatedly increased funding to Israel, with half of all foreign aid going there. There are 15 countries on that council, and the one that helps Israel the most by far gets singled out for abstaining? Wouldn't treachery be more like no funding and not vetoing BDS?






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"Israel apartheid" = leftist poison slime jargon
Re: Obama gone rogue -- auggie55 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/28/2016, 13:59:26
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Totally untrue. Funny for you of all people to get that wrong ... 






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Re: "Israel apartheid" = leftist poison slime jargon
Re: "Israel apartheid" = leftist poison slime jargon -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

12/28/2016, 14:09:40
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Sure, it's a leftist term as is the idea that peace is only possible with a 2 state solution,( or completely wiping out the Palestinians). Reagan, Bush etc, have long supported this idea too.  Funding always increases no matter who is in, condemning them for constant evictions for more tennis courts and condos won't hurt. Trump will undo it anyway.  The other members of UNSC , Britain France etc., don't seem to get much heat and they didn't abstain.






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British heat
Re: Re: "Israel apartheid" = leftist poison slime jargon -- auggie55 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/29/2016, 08:52:41
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Melanie Phillips, whom we had the pleasure of meeting in Calgary a few years ago, slams her own prime minister for this outrageous act of submission:


http://melaniephillips.com/open-letter-theresa-may/







Related link: http://melaniephillips.com/open-letter-theresa-may/

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Re: British heat
Re: British heat -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

12/29/2016, 10:53:29
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So, the whole world is wrong and Israel can do whatever it wants?






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Re: British heat
Re: Re: British heat -- auggie55 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/29/2016, 10:59:43
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Did you read the article? Phillips makes a clear argument based on the very specific history she recounts. What did you think of her argument? Do you dispute her facts? On what basis? If not, how about her inferences? Again, if so, why? If not, how about her general conclusion? 

Yes, the whole world, to the extent that it ignores the true history for ideological or political expediency, is wrong. 






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Re: British heat
Re: Re: British heat -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

12/29/2016, 11:45:48
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I read it, albeit quickly. I'd have to try to research some of it. I'd be curious as to the validity of "there's no such thing as a Palestinian" to begin with. My understanding is that Palestine was there for centuries before the 1948 world sanctioned coup, nomads or not. I do recall reading that the Brits discussed thoroughly making an Israel in what is now Uganda. I wonder how that may have worked out. Trump may be the first pro-settlement president. You started out by criticizing Obama's treachery, overlooking his record breaking gifts. I think if your shipping off that much tax money, you have a right to condemn the recipient, but of course they abstained anyway. Bibi's still pissed that Obama didn't attack yet another enemy(Iran), maybe Trump will do that too.






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Re: Sanity here
Re: Re: British heat -- auggie55 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

12/29/2016, 12:12:25
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I just read a couple minutes on a Reuters comment section on this story, and oh man, what a bunch of whacko's! "God gave them the land" "No, the UN did", , "no, the Brits did" etc., etc, really a sad slice of the public, which book is right. The one point I did like was to not complain about food stamps when Israel has been the biggest US welfare case for 68 years. 38 Billion dollars, good riddance Obama.






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Theresa May
Re: British heat -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

12/29/2016, 22:08:10
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Good letter. I know you have a down on Mrs May for blowing off Robert Spencer when she was Home Secretary, & he doesn't seem to have got over it either, but siding with a movement (EDL) that evolved from organised football hooliganism was guaranteed to not win friends in high places. Like Melanie Phillips implies, I worry that the institutional biases in this country have become so one sided that the PM can no longer rely on advice being impartial.

That didn't bother Cameron, cynical smoothie that he was & good riddance, but May isn't like that. I do hope she proves to be up to the job, especially with the Brexit business, but again she isn't showing signs yet of really understanding the back story, without which major blunders will inevitably be made. That's down to the advisors too. The self satisfied, progressive, know what's best for everyone else fuckers who can calculate the number of baked beans necessary to sustain life for someone unfortunately unemployed in Barnsley, but who give themselves a free pass on responsibility for addressing the structural flaws they refuse to recognise because they don't fit. Fuckem again.

The people who think Netanyahu is some sort of troglodyte, & that Israel has no claim to existence would do well to brace themselves. As the middle east falls apart, I expect & hope that will give the opportunity to his successors to claim more of the original mandate.

Apologies if anyone got triggered by the above, but I'm on one of those endorphin highs. I spent 5 hrs earlier doing my tax return & got it in just before the deadline................kick back, pour 4 fingers of whisky & let it roll.

All the best for 2017 to one & all. 






Modified by PatD at Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 22:17:24

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Fuck!
Re: Theresa May -- PatD Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/30/2016, 08:12:01
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NEVER try a long post on an iPhone. It takes nothing to mistakenly swipe to one side and lose the whole thing. Damn, you'd have really liked my answer too, Pat. It was complimentary, engaging and interestingly challenging. Oh well.

Short form. Spencer and Geller repudiated the EDL AS DID Robinson and Carroll, its  founders when it became apparent that it could not keep actual bigots from entering its ranks. May bend them from entering the country when the announced their plan to speak at the funeral of drummer Lee Rigsby.  Clearly, they'd have said nothing that was in true or unprincipled. They would not have incited violence and any violence that might have ensued from their speech would have been unfortunate but not to better now than later if it's the inevitable response to the truth about why this savagery happened on the streets of London. 

Since becoming prime minister, May has only  smirked with self satisfaction that she did the right thing and we do it again.  Britain must be protected from the truth about Islam. In that respect, she's a lot like Merkel. 

And now I'm going to post this before I lose the whole thing. The other was a lot better though by the way. 






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Nooooo
Re: Fuck! -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

12/31/2016, 21:13:17
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I feel your pain Jim.






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OMG, you're mocking me!
Re: Nooooo -- PatD Top of thread Post Reply Forum
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Jim ®

01/01/2017, 09:42:04
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Happy New Year, Pat. I'm trying to think of an excuse to spend an evening with you and Kate again. Did we miss seeing something there? Make something up? 






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Happy New Year Jim....
Re: OMG, you're mocking me! -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

01/01/2017, 11:59:11
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....& love to Laurie. No excuse necessary, next time you're over here.......Kate often asks what you're up to, the kind of internet communication she goes in for is of a gentler more gossipy nature, tweety style about the minutiae of personal life, & I think she believes this place is like that....little does she know.






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BTW
Re: Happy New Year Jim.... -- PatD Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

01/01/2017, 12:27:57
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No mockery intended. It was meant more in the spirit of jocular commiseration, but came out kinda clumsy.






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Re: BTW
Re: BTW -- PatD Top of thread Post Reply Forum
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Jim ®

01/01/2017, 13:55:30
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Oh I know. I was just kidding. Funny how we'd never be explaining these things in person. Internet Rain Man syndrome. Everyone gets it a bit. 

We loved England, didn't see enough of Scotland and missed Eastern England which we want to see one day too. So we'll find an excuse to pass through again sometime. I'm sure of it. Meanwhile, our door is always open of course should you guys ever end up touring the west coast. Best to Kate too. 







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well I read that article Jim
Re: Even Der Spiegel admits that "calm and stoic" is insane -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/28/2016, 16:14:08
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wasn't he just saying look at how calm and stoic I am being?

and he does make a point.  The difficulty he has is that his sense of morality is offended by the otherwise pragmatic idea of not letting the refugees in at all.

It seems to me none of us like logical incompatibilities.

I reckon you should give bridge a go Jim, you might really enjoy it.  My brother loves it, he's a very good player, and you often remind me of him.  Bridge is the only thing I know that pins him down to a shared field of logic.  I really like that! 






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Re: well I read that article Jim
Re: well I read that article Jim -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/29/2016, 07:04:22
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No Lesley, he's not "just" saying that at all. But I won't go through the article line-by-line with you although it's clear that he's trying to defend a new normal where the wolf's in the door and will eat what he wants and when he wants, just hopefully not him. Remember H. G. Wells' Time Machine? He sounds like one of the surface-dwelling Eloi who accepts his fate that he may be eaten by the Morlocks one day. Oh well. Nothing you can do about it. Best to not dwell on it. That is fucking madness! 

As for bridge, are you questioning my logic too or just your brother's?










Modified by Jim at Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 09:28:20

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I thought afterwards of the right word - not stoic, phlegmatic
Re: Re: well I read that article Jim -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/30/2016, 10:08:23
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mainly, he was just saying I can't get excited about it because it wasn't in my locality.  Too right.  As a member of the generation who grew up having to finish all the food on her plate because not to do so was an insult to the starving Africans, I agree with him. Technically I could see it was an appalling thing, a child so thin from lack of food, but practically it wasn't really a part of my world and I wasn't reduced to tears.  Bambi made me cry tho.   

As for bridge, that was a genuine suggestion.  You might really enjoy it.  

Surely you realise how rare it is, a shared field of logic.  Scientists try to maintain one.  So do the top bridge players, it's not like chess which requires individual brilliance, it's a partnership that must shine.  Sitting between those two top players was a sheer pleasure, like flopping into an armchair that doesn't fall down. 








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Lesley, that's a ridiculous analogy
Re: I thought afterwards of the right word - not stoic, phlegmatic -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/31/2016, 09:41:01
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Starving kids elsewhere are cause for compassion if you can muster it but they're not a challenge to your own survival. Islamic terrorism threatens all of Germany (as well as the rest of the world) so the author taking false comfort in the fact that this particular attack didn't strike his own neighbourhood this time is classic rationalization that doesn't really make sense. 

As for bridge, that actually does sound appealing. Who knows? Maybe one day I will. 








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No, Jim
Re: Lesley, that's a ridiculous analogy -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/31/2016, 14:48:58
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the author is not taking false comfort, just not getting hysterical.  He remains sure of his own survival in the current moment.  Like us all, he personally could meet his end from all sorts of causes that have nothing to do with the threat of Islam.

 






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The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry
Re: No, Jim -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/31/2016, 18:49:11
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Buddy can only afford to be calm because there's a giant security service scrambling to protect him. For instance, people are having fun in Times Square tonight - safe within a perimeter of 51 sand-filled garbage trucks! Are you kidding me? That's like celebrating your birthday in a bomb shelter. 






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Re: The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry
Re: The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

01/01/2017, 14:18:41
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Every so often I wonder what on earth Nero could have done other than play the fiddle while Rome burned.  Pee on the flames?  Or those gents playing the fiddle while the titanic went down - get down on their knees to pray to God?

I agree with your point tho.  The sense I have of the writer is that he has probably lived his entire life in a secure and stable society and would feel differently about the danger inherent in the situation if he hadn't.

But even if he is a bit of a poser, and anyway that's his job isn't it, and even if he lacks in experience, I don't.  I am genuinely phlegmatic.  He is correct, he is right to cop to not really feeling upset, it's only reasonable he is a human being.  If I had actually been upset about the starving child in Africa I would have been overwhelmed, the face of one million children in dire need - at my disposal one squishy plate of food to contemplate mailing to Africa.  Look it would have been easy enough, quite within my human capabilities if that starving child had been in my locality - I could have just passed my plate across the table.

So yes, I agree with your point.  Can you acknowledge and agree with mine please.  Either that or explain why they are incompatible because I don't believe they are.

or you could admit you have an opportunistic style of logic not a fair one.  I don't mind, you pick, I will believe you.  Oh actually no, come to think of it, I do mind.  I don't believe you're fair, you're right I do think that.  You insist on making your points and won't acknowledge anyone else's.  Like my brother.  He lined up his soldiers and cowboys on the building block ramparts.  I lined up my indians and cows along the fences and trees.  'Bang bang, you're dead', he'd go and knock over a horse.  So I tried that on him 'You missed', he said.  Don't you miss 13's posts?  I do.

I hope he comes back soon.  His ideas are just as good as yours.  Some of them are better. 






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Re: Miss 13 too.(no text)
Re: Re: The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
auggie55 ®

01/01/2017, 16:00:34
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You lost me
Re: Re: The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

01/03/2017, 08:57:58
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I'm confused and don't know what point you're insisting I agree on in order to prove my good faith. Please clarify. 






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You lost me - (disregard duplicate)
Re: Re: The only reason for sang froid is other people's worry -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

01/03/2017, 08:58:55
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I'm confused and don't know what point you're insisting I agree on in order to prove my good faith. Please clarify. 





Modified by Jim at Tue, Jan 03, 2017, 12:06:53

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thanks Jim, but I think we've moved on
Re: You lost me - (disregard duplicate) -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

01/03/2017, 14:33:26
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oh well, one more time - my point is he's just being normal.  He's responding normally - he doesn't have an intimate emotional connection to the people involved and it isn't in his immediate locality.  If he were to be genuinely upset that would mean he was having an hysterical response.

that was my point, Jim - not hard to acknowledge really is it?












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Once again, that's ridiculous
Re: thanks Jim, but I think we've moved on -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

01/04/2017, 09:10:33
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You're putting a lot of strain on "immediate". There's no end to that game. One could as easily say that while their cousins were killed four blocks over, it wasn't their "immediate" family and not on their actual street so it made sense for them to not feel particularly alarmed. Do I really need to spell this out? It's like my song, Islam is Peace (Except When it's Not). When there's no categorical dividing line, it's irrational to pretend one exists just because of happenstance. 






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lordy, Jim
Re: Once again, that's ridiculous -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

01/04/2017, 12:34:18
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the only way a conversation is possible is when both parties are making an honest effort to understand the other and arrive at the truth of the matter.  

do you really think that if your cousins were killed 4 blocks away you wouldn't be particularly affected?  Quite right, you would be less affected than if it were your siblings in your street.  And more affected than if it were acquaintances in the next town.  That IS the way we work. 

Why say there's no categorical dividing line, it's good enough to accept as valid.  We can all make the same list - what, you think some people are more affected if it is strangers being bombed in the next country than they are if it's their loved one in the living room?






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You're missing something critical
Re: lordy, Jim -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

01/04/2017, 12:49:58
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The German government and media go out of their way to minimize the threat so that Germans don't get the immediacy. Anyway, when this starts happening closer to your home, if it does, you can demonstrate an appropriate and reasonable response. Until then, we're both projecting. I think I'm doing so reasonably. You think you are. Oh well. 






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and it's not a ridiculous analogy
Re: Lesley, that's a ridiculous analogy -- Jim Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

12/31/2016, 15:15:48
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it worked perfectly well to demonstrate the point I was making if not yours.  

furthermore.  furthermore, I don't rate Islam as the worst threat facing humanity, not by a long chalk.

The monster of Jihadi is the tip of the iceberg.  The destruction of our world, the next few metres beneath.  The flagrant disregard for human happiness underpinning it all.








Modified by lesley at Sat, Dec 31, 2016, 15:16:23

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Re: Germany
Re: Germany -- 13 Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

12/28/2016, 19:18:09
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Hi John,

I admired the calmness and stoicism of Germans interviewed on the radio
after the truck slaughter. It may not be typical, and I'm sure not
universal, but I liked what I heard.


I did too.  It's better than panic and chaos.  But, when people are in, around, or live near such a terrifying event, they do go into shock.  It's a normal human response to become numb, confused, and afraid, among other feelings.

In such a profound traumatic event, people are going to react in different ways.  Some will panic, which isn't the best response.  Being stoic, on alert, and cogent, is the best response to a traumatic event, especially if one doesn't know if another attack is forthcoming.

I know what it's like to be in shock and fear, wondering when the next attack will come.  One learns how to put oneself into a "zone," a space that protects one from having emotions, which, if they were felt fully based on the circumstances, one's head and chest would explode from the psychic pain of it.

The sole goal is survival.  Easy Peasy. 

I've been there and done it.  Stoicism is a good response to danger on the level of terrorist attacks.








Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Dec 28, 2016, 19:21:28

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Stoicism - another term co-opted by PC - edited
Re: Re: Germany -- Cynthia Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Jim ®

12/29/2016, 11:32:06
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Hi Cynthia,

You're right that shock can be confused with stoicism. So can cowardly, weak fatalism. It now appears that the Muslim terrorist / "refugee" migrant, who was driving at 60 Kms an hour with a 25 ton steel load, would have driven into a food court-type area and children playzone if the truck's automatic braking system hadn't kicked in. But I'm a stoic. Check my face. Nothing. 

Obviously, panic, unless one's in an immediate fight-or-flight situation is always bad. But there's no substitute in this case for honesty. Honesty about Islam, about the depth and breadth of the threat and, only then, a rational response. 






Modified by Jim at Thu, Dec 29, 2016, 11:55:05

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