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There are good and bad things . I turned 18 in '72 in high school and college I got the bare minumum in eastern cultures and religions & history .I read sidhartha and was inspired .In america they are taking religoin out of clasrooms more and more . I wonder if just history of various religions was tauhgt more in high schools we and younger people would be more wiser and not easy prey ? Maybe a class on cult awarness is in order at high schools .I am sure it gets talked about somewhere .For the most part we were all pre Jim Jones and pre Heavens Gate .The only good thing for that I can say is I started reading more about eastern cultures and religoins to put things in perpective , but in a cult that is frowned upon .The problem is that there were various degrees of wrongness and abuse done to premies .
Modified by geo at Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 10:04:50
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For me it was. As a premie I kept away from harmful habits such as too much alcohol and drugs. I also stayed away from pubs, unsavoury characters, and all the decadence and excesses that were the early 70s. As a premie I also became quite conscious of what I ate and probably ate better than I had in years. I stopped drinking coffee and since I went to bed right after satsang and meditation, more often than not I got a good night’s sleep. Yep, when buddies of mine were dieing of drug overdoses and alcohol related illnesses (including car crashes and bar-fights), I was eating vegetarian fare, drinking hot cocoa, and getting about 9 hours of sleep a night. The regular meditation also cleared my head, and calmed me down – testosterone, blood pressure and all that. I also hung out with people who were for the most part fundamentally . . . well, nice - particularly some really beautiful and kind premie women. 
So for me, being a premie was for the most part quite beneficial.
Modified by Steve at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 22:04:19
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Yeah alot of premeis were geniunlly nice and had good intentions and good people. Yes I got exposed to health food ,vegetainism witch I still abide by and macro biotics . Those were the good aspects of the whole thing
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As a premie I kept away from harmful habits such as too much alcohol and drugs. I also stayed away from pubs, unsavoury characters, and all the decadence and excesses that were the early 70s. Sounds like you were missing out, Steve.  Didn't seem to stop Maharaji. And if the truth be told, only the most virtuous of premies lived lives of such denial. Most of us, I think, including our divine master, were fighting a losing battle when it came to such indulgences. Turns out we were followng his lead, all along, after all.
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That thought has struck me once or twice too, Jerry. LOL.
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Please keep in mind though that I said, "As a premie I kept away from harmful habits such as too much alcohol and drugs." I was no angel. Didn't seem to stop Maharaji that's for sure, but ironically I don't think he ever considered himself a premie. From what’s been posted on EPO (Mishler, Dettmers etc.) he probably sees himself as a Hindu businessman running a corporation. I actually was a premie - a lover of Truth. I really did practice meditation, stop smoking, become vegetarian etc. and took his message rather seriously. Quite the paradox.
Modified by Steve at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 14:00:08
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Whatever the answer the wielder of the brick needs a damn good explanation for their action. I think there's an awful lot of leeway to engage in personal mythologising with this type of 'back view', and the "it was the least worst option open to me" is a pretty common bit of personal myth. You can hear it expressed by people in prison, people getting divorced, people being made bankrupt. For some it may be a true statement - but mostly its an alibi for an ill considered action. I used to subscribe to the "if I hadn't got Knowledge my life would have been a disaster" explanation - I no longer accept that, in fact I think that was chunk of received wisdom that I adopted along with other premie beliefs. Just another 'bad meme' from Rawat world. Perhaps I would have been swamped by sex, drugs and rock and roll, and perhaps I was 'saved'. More likely I'd have found my way through the challenges of life without having encounted K, Rawat and premies, in much the same way as I have found my way through life, have encountered them Nik
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so that's where I left my brick!
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Thankyou for a very well written and thought out piece, Milarepa. I must admit to thinking along these lines, but could not find the words the way you have done.
Any evidence for it not being entirely detrimental is here on the forum. The clarity, sincerity, depth of perception, sense of humour, fair mindedness, honesty, and caring that I have seen in people posting suggests to me that some good has come from it all, or in these cases, at least no lasting harm.
Though it's quite likely that the more beneficial aspects and improvements began once a definite "exing" had occurred.
Perhaps rebelling against an injustice brings out the best in people? Not always.
It might have heightened our "search for truth". however the usefulness of this depends upon whether one considers there is a truth to be found.
It has definitely played a part for me in clarifying my views on the basic equality of human worth, by showing the dangers inherent in placing anyone on a spiritual pedestal.
Lp
Modified by LP at Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 11:43:08
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Glad to be in the Co of truthfullness. Best, turey.
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"The clarity, sincerity, depth of perception, sense of humour, fair mindedness, honesty, and caring that I have seen in people posting suggests to me that some good has come from it all ..." ... and still you let him steal from you.
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LP did not give either Rawat or Knowledge credit for anything. Nice try though.
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Whatever LP intended to imply, his actual words (which are all I have to go on) were:"Some good has come from it all" the "it" I took to refer to "being a premie", like it said in the header of LP's post. Being a premie has/had nothing to do with Rawat or "Knowledge"? I'd love to know how you spin that one!
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All you have to go on Cq is the context. An extracted phrase is less than all.
I said:
Any evidence for it not being entirely detrimental is here on the forum. The clarity, sincerity, depth of perception, sense of humour, fair mindedness, honesty, and caring that I have seen in people posting suggests to me that some good has come from it all, or in these cases, at least no lasting harm.
Though it's quite likely that the more beneficial aspects and improvements began once a definite "exing" had occurred.
I should have been more clear: by it all I meant the entire process of becoming a premie, becoming disillusioned, ex-ing and posting.
See: "here on the forum" above.
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 10:20:14
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... by "it all" I meant the entire process of becoming a premie, becoming disillusioned, ex-ing and postingSo your comments were as much about no longer being a premie as being one. Thanks for making that known.
Modified by cq at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 11:32:39
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Seems to me, LP was only looking for silver linings - as we all do after a traumatic or regrettable experience. And frequently, they are there. Good things often stem directly from bad times, and vice versa. Get falsely imprisoned by an evil tyrant and chances are you'll come out a stronger person (if you come out at all). At a lower level, Rawat's psychic imprisonment of premies may have - unintentionally - made me more logical, skeptical and rational in life than I ever would have been without him. But so would have joining the Moonies, probably. Do I thank the Rawat corporation for any of it? Do I hell! I only wish I had been better firewalled against that sort of cult toxin. I can't speak for LP, but grasping onto any perceived benefit from an otherwise dysfunctional commitment seems a pretty wise option to me. I'm sure we have all learned a few lessons. Nige
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I think Jim made a very valid observation. We have probably developed a valuable power of discernment into the nature and characteristics of cultish phenomena. We may have deeper insights into established religious movements which exhibit similar cultlike characteristics and we are in a position to recognize or warn of dangers others may not see.
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Obviously during the long years of being a premie I learnt a great deal over a range of subjects and, no doubt, many things I learnt probably was due to my association with other premies, going to programs and whatnot. However I would not attribute that learning to being a premie or having been 'taught', by Maharaji. That type of learning I sincerely believe would have happened regardless of what I was, or where I was or what type of thing I believed in (or did not believe in). After all, as one goes through one's twenties, thirties and so forth there is a natural maturing and learning that happens. It happens in spite of being a premie, not due to being a premie. Often I thought, whilst a premie, that the growing up that occured with me, and other around me, was due to being a premie, the grace or whatnot. How wrong I was. I do think that being a premie, or more specifically having a belief system that encompasses having Maharaji as being someone unique (from being the Lord of the Universe, to being an avatar, to being a Satguru, to something as seemingly ordinary as a 'peace' teacher), does actually hold back the natural growing up and maturing process that occurs anyway. Hold back in such a major negative way as stunting the emotional growth that should occur. This is in addition to the well known negative impact on careers, family, friends, retirement planning etc. For me, being a premie and more importantly waking up and disowning what being a premie is (as I have defined it above), did bring to me lots of understanding that perhaps I would not have had. Specifically I'm thinking here of the understanding that all of us here have on the negativity of belief systems, cult thinking, non-rational thinking and the very essence of cults - both small (as in OUR cult) and large, as in cultish belief systems that seem to be sweeping the world currently. Perhaps I would have gained such an understanding in any event, who knows? Would I, if I had the chance of replaying the time, choose to follow the same path? Certainly not! Life being a premie certainly had its good moments, and I don't in any way begrudge that, in fact openly acknowledge that, however the negatives far outweigh the positives, by a long stretch. Not being a premie, whatever other path one chose, or simply trod, normal paths, not paths bound up in cultic systems, would have had far more positives then negatives, I believe. There is the element that so many premies expouse, that of being 'saved', Nik alludes to it when he says that he use to think, whilst a premie, that ""if I hadn't got Knowledge my life would have been a disaster". This really is, again imo, such a big mind trap. So many premies that I have spoken to, since I exed, have said that they feel that Maharaji has 'saved' them, I probably felt that way at times also (although the memory is growing dimmer by the day). Really the opposite is true, far from 'saving' people, all that Maharaji does is to ensnare people, ensnare people's postive intentions and get them caught up in an idol worship cult. Regret? Regret about being a premie? Nope not really, we are where we are, there does not seem to be any point of crying over spilt milk, personally I take what positives I can from my own life choices as well as the influences on my life (positive and negative) and move on from that. What is the alternative? I seem to have typed a few more words than I set out originally. What I wanted to say, or rather agree to are the following words from LP, so true they are: The clarity, sincerity, depth of perception, sense of humour, fair mindedness, honesty, and caring that I have seen in people posting suggests to me that some good has come from it all, or in these cases, at least no lasting harm.
T
Modified by T at Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 16:30:59
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Very nicely put. I do think that being an ex-cult member has indeed given me a particular insight into cultish movements and religions such as Islam which I'd never have had otherwise. That's un unintended consequence and benefit for sure. Yep, good post.
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With regards to the "saved" idea, it seems to me, if I search my memories of my own and other's experience, that we kind of "heard ourselves saying this" when trying to give satsang.
In our growing efforts to find persuasive arguments to use in giving satsang, we almost stumbled upon a very negative interpretation of what was a fairly typical and happy go lucky young hippy's life: learning a lot quite quickly about quite a lot and having a ball doing it.
A sad tale almost told itself, prompted by the expectancy of the listeners. I've probably heard myself and every person I ever saw give satsang resort to it, at times.
It is an easy way to fill five or ten minutes. "I was .... and then ..... now I'm ......and everything is......." It was an easy way to begin learning the lesson of how to lie softly with a stupid grin on one's face.
The crowd seemed to like the self effacing nature of these speeches and so we are encouraged to fall back upon it again when in the hot spot. Eventually it becomes plugged in as our memory. We should not underestimate the power of words we have ourselves spoken, especially in the public and proclamatory way in which we spoke giving satsang. We probably drove those words most deeply into our own selves.
Thinking we served mankind we were fixing and establishing false beliefs deep within our conscious being, and inviting the possibility of the same for others. As I type a thought connects this to another thread.
When things turn out to be anti-climactic or down right disappointing, what are the chances that disillusioned, the sensitive premie might consider themselves backsliding now into the revised description of their life, back into the mawdling fiction they invented to say they'd been saved from. Now they have said it so many times they believe it. Other's stories are similar which gives it validity.
I can see slopes running off into depression and suicide in this model. We ourselves created an image of a world of nonsense, mumbo jumbo, craziness, lack of god etc... and rising out of it maharaji's pink ice cream castle. When it melts we've only got the negative world model we constructed to help ensnare flies for maharaji's web, to fall into, as it were.
What worries me: I have spoken over the years to many members of staff, and have heard similar tales of emptiness, purposelessness, suffocating boredom, crushed spirit, broken heart, disturbed mind, loneliness and general malaise and have been usually surprised at the number of cigarettes that are being smoked. There has been a tone of hopelessness, that sounded bordering on the suicidal. There is a difference, from normal depression. They do not feel they have the option to move onto something else. What else? The universe has shrunk to the size of the premie kitchen.
Lp
Modified by LP at Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 19:53:38
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That`s a terrific post LP... you really nailed the satsang experience beautifully.
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LP said: "When things turn out to be anti-climactic or down right disappointing, what are the chances that disillusioned, the sensitive premie might consider themselves backsliding now into the revised description of their life, back into the mawdling fiction they invented to say they'd been saved from. Now they have said it so many times they believe it. Other's stories are similar which gives it validity." For you LP maybe it was "mawdling" fiction;but that doesn't mean it was for everyone. I think it's possible that Rawat just got lucky because the early seventies was a very mixed up and confusing era for young people......it was "out with the old" and it had gone....but the "new" was still to come.I think young people ,at that time ,really did seem primed to search for and find a new direction and meaning.I don't think it was like that for every generation. I know that at that time I felt very "lost" and I was fearful and actively searching.I found something in satsang that did seem to resonate with my own experiences (albeit the more negative ones!). I do agree however that I may have grown out of this phase in my life naturally.....and that the "liesang" as you call it , perpetuated this negative view of life and reinforced the notion of needing to be constantly "saved". shudder The thing is we were obliged to give satsang as part of the "satsang,service and meditation " path to realisation.Our master told us to do it so I tried to dredge something truthful up.I don't feel a necessity to suggest that everybody was lying. There was certainly a nice mellow experience to be had when it was at it's best although I now think that that feeling is not particular to "satsang" and maybe the only lie ( and it's a BIG one) is the notion the the good vibes had anything at all to do with the guru! Some years after community satsang was suddenly ended ,I met a premie I hadn't seen for a long time who had always had tendencies towards alcoholism.He had to travel for his studies and he told me that he went to AA meetings in whichever country he was living as the experience was just like satsang.
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I must admit I really enjoyed satsang, giving and listening, not maharaji's though, the other premies. The phrase "mawdling fiction" is not a good one and is too extreme.
If I had noticed before your comment I might have edited it.
Try "tendency to view one's life before knowledge as a sort of pathetically hopeless search for something, bordering on desperate."
I can't speak for others but I tried only to speak of the truth as I saw it of the universe, human consciousness and the mind and never deliberately warped what I had experienced.
I probably tried to make my story sound like a convincing persuasion to get people to take knowledge a few times though, I'm sure. It was not difficult to gather all the uncertain things before in the before box and all the "positive stuff" after in the after box, and still not be lieing.
I preferred not to speak of maharaji but more of the natural world, the universe and the inner experience. I saw knowledge as a part of that, more than maharaji.
I guess I meant that it was not a bad thing to be wandering around not knowing the secrets of the universe and being young, albeit without a definite aim. Seeking truth and only finding hints was OK. That's what all generations have done.
BTW I replied to your email Lexy, sorry I was so slow.
Regards
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 10:45:26
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I used to enjoy giving satsang too. Almost all the time. It happened once or twice over my eight years of cult involvement that I'd be kind of sensitive or fragile for some reason and would actually freeze up a little. Yeah, that happened. But generally, it was fun. It was a great way to show off and give all credit to Maharaji all at the same time. It was a great way to diss people and praise them -- again, all at the same time. It was a great way to express my faith and devotion and my doubts -- all at the same time. But perhaps it would have just been better if we had a running tall tale competition. Just open your mouth and let the inner liar start talking.
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I wish I had a tape of you giving satsang. Jeez, we could upload it on ex-premie.org. Sorry, Jim, but I just can't fathom you giving satsang. It is just so out of character with who you now are. Man, that would be fun, though. I could tell every new arrival, particularly the premies, "have you heard Jim giving satsang? It's at www.suchanchsuch. You'll love it". Hahaha! And I know we all would. You don't have any on tape, do you?
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I''ve got this letter, the urgent invitation to Millenium I sent my mother and sister. I'll try to scan it into my computer and then post it a la Hilltop.
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I remember you talking about such a letter but I don't remember if you posted the content. But yeah, if it's good for a laugh, entertain us. I'm sure everybody would get a charge out of it.
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But I've never done it before so I might need some help. Once I scan the pages into my computer, how do I upload them? (I know John just explained this to someone else the other day. But where?)
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This letter is a hoot. You'll see. But how do I post the pics from my computer? John? Anyone?
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I`ve just done the same thing for the first time Jim.... These are Johns instructions to me from below... If your picture is on your computer (which yours is!) you need to select it in the Attachment box (click on Choose to find it). This uploads it to the server so we can all see it - we can't see the contents of your computer!
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I just tried that but my images are too big. What's the limit?
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It says 1024kb in the attachment box.... try reducing it to a little less than that.
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I don't get it. I've resized the first image to 203 kb and the forum still says it's too big. Hmmm......
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I think it's 1MB but that will be very slow for people like me with dialup. If you can reduce it to 200KB or less and still have it readable that would be good. Basically, get it as small as possible but still readable. My pond picture that you liked was about 70KB.John.
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Lp, what is a "mawdling fiction"? I googled the phrase and got nothing. Did you mean 'maudlin', maybe?
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Yes of course 'maudlin', what was I thinking? Thanks premie ex.
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Shortly after receiving Knowledge I began taking someone close to me to AA meetings and satsang. I was astounded that AA meetings were not only the same format as satsang ie public confessionals but I got nearly as high there as I did in satsang. Unfortunately the alcoholic didn't and eventually refused to continue going to either meetings. Far from being only tales of past confusion and unhappiness, which was hardly liesang as a significant proportion of teenagers are still living through that confusion and apparently always have, it also contained tales of inspiring happiness and joy after receiving knowledge. Furthermore there was a component amongst some premies of removing their self from the story as they actually did become less self obsessed as they "grew" in their "practise of Knowledge". This moved further and further into total worship of Rawat as the 70's wore on as indeeed he was prompting everyone that that was the way to go.
And "obliged to give satsang" is hardly how I remember it either. There was nearly always a strong eagerness amongst the majority of the premies to give satsang as it was a very "blissful" thing to do.
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Hi Ocker,You said: And "obliged to give satsang" is hardly how I remember it either. There was nearly always a strong eagerness amongst the majority of the premies to give satsang as it was a very "blissful" thing to do. I was using posh english which,being Aussie you may not have understood.Maharaji did continually tell us in the late seventies ,early eighties to do satsang ,service and meditation....it was part of the deal.I took all this kind of stuff very seriously so for me it was an "obligation". Even if I couldn't think of anything to say I had to cobble something together and squeeze out some kind of desperate "truth".God knows what garbage I managed to come up with but I know I was ick-illy sincere!
Modified by lexy at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 07:38:16
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My experience as a premie was feeling I was on the outside looking in. So I let the premies who I assumed were having THE EXPERIENCE, that I so much longed for, give satsang. But AA was different. There I had something to talk about and identify with.
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My experience as a premie was feeling I was on the outside looking in. So I let the premies who I assumed were having THE EXPERIENCE, that I so much longed for, give satsang. I totally relate to that Jerry. The cumulative effect of all that listening was, for me, a growing sense of alienation, a `dark night of the soul`, which grew until I could no longer bare it... and left. But the imprint ran deep.
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you know.. Our ashram secretary was fond of that story, and told it in satsang every second night for about two years. I used to sit there at first thinking, no, I don't know, then I just gave up and used to count the 'you knows' and on one occasion they came to about 67, you know (now he's got me doing it). Ah, that story of the king, I see it in my dreams even now (not). I too avoided giving satsang back then, because I had a natural aversion to bullshit, and I was very aware that I wasn't having much of an experience, if at all, apart from at some festivals (or at least bits of same) and while singing some of the songs. After some dreadful years of feeling alienated among the whole of the premie scene, I decided after a great festival experience that I just had to be true to my own personality and feelings, rather than being merged into some moluscular premie wishful thinking type organism. So in satsang, I told exactly how it was for me, with its elations and angsts, and experienced such a joy as my own feelings and individuality re-emerged. I was very involved in communal stuff, and meditating my 2 hours daily, and had a great time of renascent freedom of thought and feeling. The freedom was only relative, of course, because it was within a cult framework, but it was great to be pretty much myself, while now enjoying satsang and all the songs, and much of the premie company (yes, it was a good time). The next problem I had to face was the era of surrender.
In that period I came to believe that the only things which mattered, and on which my worldly rationale should be based, were surrender and grace.
That the whole world actually was a divine lila, in which everything was forcing me to surrender my own will to that of guru (or God, as these were synonymous). Consequently, the whole natural laws of cause and effect went tits up. When people behaved like bastards, they might, according to the theory, only be doing so as tools of my enlightenment.
When nice things happened, they were gifts from the Lord for me being a good devotee. When bad shit occurred, it was all my own fault, due to my own imperfections. If I were only in Holy Name 24/7, then all of the universal goodies would come my way (though never desiring these, or maybe only a bit sneakingly, which was inevitable). If things went really shit, it was an opportunity to pay off karma. Thanks a fucking bundle. It's difficult to convey the weirdness and disorientation of living in such a dual version of reality - one in which natural cause and effect and pre-involvement experience is calling out: Fuck! This is weird, and completely off the wall by any sense of logic, and in relation to ordinary human strengths, failings and psychology. And then the other 'rationality' saying: no, hold on, the point is surrender of desires, and everything will chill out and you will be in a much better place, however much shit you are having to eat now. I guess it's like being that king, where you don't know which is the dream, and that fucking elephant comes along and spills those last few grains of rice off your fucking palm leaf or solitary beggar's chapatti. However, just like the king was helped out of the shit by a third unexpected force, I found I also was. The intention of the story, of course, is the king being shown truth by his passing master, to whom he then surrenders. My liberation was in the form of learning once again to trust in my own personal conscience, by learning to listen deeply within me for the wisdom I found came when I asked for help and guidance sincerely.
I found I was helped in this by my meditation, in stilling me, but I guess it would have come through in any case, if one is quiet enough to listen. Maybe life is a big learning experience, but it certainly isn't in the hands of any one fickle individual to whom we dance the endless lila. Actually, I do think that life is an ongoing and endless learning experience. It is one in which we learn the value of good sincere ethics, good sense, and hopefully the nous to listen inside for the deep teaching words that come from our own conscience, which in its turn is maybe part of something universal which is not at all fickle, doesn't play shabby games with us, and which may be teaching us how to become more loving people.
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You well describe the duality of the surrendered existence,Anthony ! A truly horrible memory for me with the threat of eternal damnation endlessly spinning around on the wheel of karma if you just couldn't do it..... which of course no one could !
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Yes, that was my experience too. I used to be paralysed with fear at the prospect of being asked, but always stepped up to the plate on the odd occasion when I was. That is outside of my home community, like at the ashram or something; back at base I gradually overcame it, but was always happier listening to others.
Ocker was probably one of those bastards who could do the full lotus & who used to sit with their toes twitching, belching gently without apology, whilst they waited for the inspiration to flow. Then off they'd go with many an expressive hand movement, gradually turning pinker. Can't remember now if they farted as well.
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There was always someone who let one off....usually hidden amongst the huddled congregation.
Modified by lexy at Fri, Jul 28, 2006, 17:16:56
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Well I am new out here so be gentle with me (the posts set a high standard and I have really enjoyed reading them). After 30 odd years my light sabre has finally turned from green to red and aside from trying out all the new powers (like thinking) I have been wondering about just the same things.. I agree with LP and T. but can't resist adding a few of my own words.. Benefits? ... some real highs (early 70s ..there was a real energy) and I met some wonderful inspiring people and good friends over the years. Problem? M. M talks about many things that are fundamental, true, exist anyway and that everyone knows (comedians are often good at that too although he is no Billy Connelly). The catch is that long exposure to his voice (what is 'preparation' now..70h?) conditions the subtle shift that somehow links our inner treasures to him. Big mistake. We fill the open receptacles of his words with our own heart-touching meanings ....and maybe the best of us feel the most ..and spiral in closest....and yes I think it was damaging . The personality cult diverted so many talented people's time, efforts and energy from things that would gave been so much more worthwhile. On the bright side though today is a new day and EV in the West is on a downward spiral. Corporate, mechanical...I believe that most premies 'feel' something is wrong and therefore there is no real conviction in propogation. Anyway, personally I do not know Mr Rawat and I have no clue how happy he really is....but it doesn't look too promising does it? Forever the teacher and never the student. Probably tough after such a bizzare upbringing and a father figure to follow who, in truth, he must barely remember. I hope that he gets some help. Anyway, I don't know if it was all good or bad but certainly is great to get the monkey off of my back.... a wonderful day today .... a blissful walk in the heartbreaking beauty of the English countryside in summer (and to feel a little of that beauty, that all-permeating stillness and gratitude to that which has always been with me), a party for the kids in the paddling pool and then the natural fireworks of thunderstorm to clear the air. Not so bad! best to everyone
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Anyway, I don't know if it was all good or bad but certainly is great to get the monkey off of my back.... a wonderful day today .... a blissful walk in the heartbreaking beauty of the English countryside in summer (and to feel a little of that beauty, that all-permeating stillness and gratitude to that which has always been with me), a party for the kids in the paddling pool and then the natural fireworks of thunderstorm to clear the air. Not so bad!Yes, freedom is wonderful isn't it! Here's picture of my fishpond for no particular reason! John.
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More please....introduction maybe ? Lovely fishpond John.....do you fish there?
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Now, is the dream about the 18th century landed aristocracy?That's what I want to know.
Modified by Dermot at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 17:43:13
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My God, that's beautiful, John. Thank you. I needed a lovely, peaceful image like that...perfect!
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Not being gentle here Tommo, that was a truly excellent starting post. I agree on all points, and plan to walk, inspired by you today, in the heartbreakingly beautiful English Countryside. Thankyou.
All the best to you and welcome,
Lp
Modified by LP at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 08:44:40
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...and thanks for that waft from your magic Isle. Best, turey.
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Milarepa,If your picture is on your computer (which yours is!) you need to select it in the Attachment box (click on Choose to find it). This uploads it to the server so we can all see it - we can't see the contents of your computer!  John the proactive helpdesk
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Hi John, Thanks for the tip... I`ll try again
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Glad you decided to trust your intelligence and not the corrupted part of your psyche. I hope you get to read below some of the discussion as to how in England, during the early days, the bad financial situation there really assisted the cult in its ability to snag the young off the street and put them to work and got them haircuts and something we thought was worthwhile -- peace on earth. However, it turned out to be just a hoax, a celebrity cult. How sad for us. I also was a 29-1/2 year premie, but left in five years go next month (with a blaring post of how I threw all my videos, pictures and publications in a dumpster behind the Indian restaurant down the street). Best to you and good luck in your transition. I wish to walk in the English countryside, too, but it ain't happening.
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Problem? M. Agreed. Here is a little bit of my own English countryside...
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close.... Northern Pennines actually
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Back in the early days, the premise of `The Knowledge` was that `The Lord of the Universe` was here on earth and it was possible to realise `God` with his `Grace`. Since that wasn't the case how else can I look at it as anything but a waste of time? If you have a definite goal and you're sidetracked from it, you've wasted time. Even though the so-called messiah was a fake, the key question is… can anything surrounding him be untainted by the falsehood and so have real value? Only waking up to the fact that he's a fake. He still was a detour on the journey. Maybe there's some powers that be that determined that had to happen, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, Maharaji was just a waste of time. I don't see anything of value that came from being a premie. Like I said, I wanted something specific which Maharaji failed to deliver. Now he just wants people to settle for "peace". He almost had me going, too. Maharaji's bag now is turning people away from their original goal, which is to find God. But since they couldn't find it through him, he changed his tune, and tried to convince people that he wasn't about revealing God, afterall. He just offers peace and happiness. And people are so fucked up that they settle for it. They lose faith that God can even be found because they couldn't find him through Maharaji. But at least he can deliver peace. Shit. Waste of time.
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Yep, complete waste of time. Since I left, I have learned much more, integrated with other people far better, and generally lived in a much more constructive way. I didn't need to find God after all ( like Alice said, the bugger can come and look for me for a change ), and I don't seem to be lacking peace or anything else that was on offer.
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I didn't need to find God after all ( like Alice said, the bugger can come and look for me for a change ) It's funny you should say that, 13, because if the truth be told, God's not the one who's lost. We are. So who should find who, eh? But that's a premise that means something only if you believe in God, which you may not. So, please forgive me if I sound like a preacher. I'm just expressing a personal conviction.
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If it's the truth we are telling, then I don't believe in God. I just find it funny the presumption that if there were a God, we'd have to find him. Maybe s/he doesn't want finding. Maybe s/he's got good reason to hide. And if s/he doesn't want to hide, well COME ON OUT I say, introduce yourself!
Before I fell for the Knowledge thing, I fell for the idea that there was something missing. There wasn't - it was all there!
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Before I fell for the Knowledge thing, I fell for the idea that there was something missing. There wasn't - it was all there!
Well, that's what they say, right? It's right under our nose what we're looking for? I actually believe that. Remember Maharaji and his "fish in the water"? He was always quoting Kabir. The fish is thirsty in the water, and I laugh. That may have been so, but laughing is about all Maharaji was good for. He certainly couldn't wake anybody up out of their slumber.
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didn't need to find God after all ( like Alice said, the bugger can come and look for me for a change )It's
funny you should say that, 13, because if the truth be told, God's not
the one who's lost. We are.
Really......as far as I can see, notions of the 'truth', or its telling, are no more that a neurotic search for meaning produced by a culturally induced expectation. So who should find who, eh?
Clearly I don't care if no-one finds anyone. But of course that's a
premise that means something only if you believe in social constructivism, which you may
not. So, please forgive me if I sound like a preacher. I'm just
expressing a personal conviction. Alice
Modified by alice at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 06:42:33
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I don't think "God" is a social construct, alice. I think it's an innate sense that people have on an individual level. I doubt we went on a quest for God because society pressured us into finding him. More likely it was based on a genuine need to connect with the cause of or being. I know that's how it works for me.
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I don't think "God" is a social construct, alice. I think it's an innate sense that people have on an individual level. You hear a new definition every day ...
Modified by Jim at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 15:25:34
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It doesn't even make sense to talk about it. How can anybody be sure that they're talking about the same thing? I think it's just part of human consciousness that is very personal. The only reason I do is if I smell smugness from atheists who think they've outgrown the child's fancy and are so much wiser than those of us still stuck in such infantile pursuits. Hey, maybe you guys are right, and it's all just silliness that we've yet to snap out of. If that's the case, I implore you're pity on behalf of all believers. At least the Muslims will probably go easier on us than all you kaffirs.
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"At least the Muslims will probably go easier on us than all you kaffirs. "Actually you are out of luck , both athiest and non-Muslims are considered dhimmis in Isamistism. Some more links at http://www.dhimmi.org/ and http://www.dhimmi.com/ and http://www.dhimmitude.org/ regards Jethro PS is this the right forum for this stuff?
Related link: Dhimmism
Modified by Jethro at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 05:27:10
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PS is this the right forum for this stuff? Jeez, Jethro, I don't know? Where are we? We're at the forum? How nice. Seriously, it's a gray area, isn't it? Searching for God was a big part of being a premie. I'd say virtually all of his earlier followers were in it for that. We weren't just looking for happiness back then. But to listen to Maharaji these days you'd think that's all he was offering, or all that we were looking for. So yeah, I think the "God" issue is appropriate on this forum, in that regard.
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"Searching for God was a big part of being a premie. "Yes, I totally forgot that( considering it was that way for me too(too. Thanks for the reminder.
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While I wouldn't look forward to being a dhimmi in the umma, that would at least be a way of staying alive. An atheist has no such right to life in Islam, do they?
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I think you are right that athiests don't get the same treatement as Dhimmis. Here is an article by an Islamic apostate. http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/islamwhitewash.htm
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I wish he only wanted to settle for peace , but there is still the subtle message by him and the old timers and he'll suck new people in to believing that he ( M ) is more than he actually is .
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But isn't that crazy, geo? I doubt newcomers have any illusions about him being or offering God. They'd be real headcases if they thought that. What indication is he giving that's where he's at? Back in the day, though, there was no question what he was offering. He made it clear that if we were looking for God, he could show us him, and there was always the belief that if he can show God, then he might, or must, be him. Certainly, an annointed envoy of God if nothing else. The Messiah. I think oldtimers who are still holding onto the belief that Maharaji is God are doing so because they've been so inundated with that belief they can't shake it loose, or they've had some kind of experience that convinced them that Maharaji is God, and they can't fathom him not being so. It must be maddening to see the games Maharaji is playing if you still believe he's God. You'd have to just completely turn off your mind to continue on that track. And doesn't it look like that's exactly what they're dong.
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I had some correspondence a couple of years ago with the ex-partner of a new premie, and she (the new premie) had an altar to Rawat in her bedroom. I think there's a lot of nod nod wink wink going on with some aspirants as they get close to receiving Knowledge, so that some of them fall in with the old-timers belief system.John.
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"I think there's a lot of nod nod wink wink going on with some aspirants as they get close to receiving Knowledge, so that some of them fall in with the old-timers belief system."Last year when I had my rant at charanand at a local green festival, one of the new premies came up to me afterwards and whispered. "well come on mow, we can't tell thrm the whole truth at once" (said to me with a wink,not 2, I kid you not). It must still be very appealing to believe that you have "the religion that existed before there was any religion(suposedly Kabir)".
Modified by Jethro at Sun, Jul 30, 2006, 00:09:02
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New comers say 18 -30 yrs old that do not know his past ,unless they read EPO .They will not getor hear the sat Guru stuff because M is being sutble ,after they get hooked in they get more subtlties and then start buying into his divinety little by little without even realizing it . Atleast that is my observation .I came in as the ashrams closed and never heard of the Lord of the universe or sat guru but I ened up unconciously making him more significant than the way M presented himself after he dropped the satguru image . This was from just being around the long time premies one get thesubtle messages and starts to by into the divinty BS atleast that is how it happened to me .
Modified by geo at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 09:58:18
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"I think oldtimers who are still holding onto the belief that Maharaji is God are doing so because they've been so inundated with that belief they can't shake it loose, or they've had some kind of experience that convinced them that Maharaji is God, and they can't fathom him not being so. It must be maddening to see the games Maharaji is playing if you still believe he's God. You'd have to just completely turn off your mind to continue on that track." Sorry Jerry but your way ,way off target with these comments. I still believed everything until I read EPO.I was never maddened by anything that Maharaji did (far from it) BECAUSE I still believed he was God.In my experience neither were other premies. You only clearly see "the games" when you stop believing.Before that point of course your mind is turned off to the truth; that ,Jerry ,is the whole crux of the matter and the difference between a premie and an ex-premie, isn't it ? If you never had any kind of blissful experience ( which we were told was the "truth" which was God) as a premie then I suppose the behaviour of premies who stuck around must seem a mystery to you.
Modified by lexy at Thu, Jul 27, 2006, 18:08:36
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I think that is exactly right Lexy M still maintains a (deliberate) ambiguity that continues to nuture that same inner belief....forced to present himself one way...but we, the inner circle, know better i.e. If you look at what he says even now... In essence, the message is the same as taught by many others before me - that which you are looking for lies within you. To me, the divine lives in my heart as the divine lives in everyone’s heart. That's how simple it is.” it really is implicit here that he is something very special. Note how the 'message is the same as taught by others before me' ...he could have also said 'and that others also teach' but he doesn't. Who then are we to infer that these significant 'others' might have been...that could reveal the divinity in people's hearts? ...what must we infer about M who, apparently uniquely, is again revealing this (implicitly ancient) truth. Personally I think it is still very loaded language ...and is all intended to engender and support essentially the same inner belief system as before .....but with enough mixed messages thrown in that everything is deniable. I am therefore not surprised at John's post about new folk maintaining shrines all the best Tommo
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....which can be denied.Exactly Tommo.Another great post from you. i.e. If you look at what he says even now... "In essence, the message is the same as taught by many others before me - that which you are looking for lies within you. To me, the divine lives in my heart as the divine lives in everyone’s heart. That's how simple it is.” Do you have the date,place etc when Mr Rawat said this please ? The second part of the quote is actually very lovely , I hope it's true even if it can't be proved scientifically.
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thanks....and I agree that the second part is lovely It is not actually a current quote (sorry inaccurate there) ..but probably only a few years old. I found it on EPO amongst the answers to FAQS on a previous version of the elanvital.org. site. (but since it claims that the message has never changed I guess the date shouldn't matter) i.e..it was this one Has Maharaji changed what he is teaching?
Maharaji has been teaching since he was eight years old. Naturally, over the years his appearance has changed, how he expresses himself has changed and his methods of presenting his message have changed. However the message itself has never changed. What he is saying now is no different from what he has always said: “In essence, the message is the same as taught by many others before me - that which you are looking for lies within you. To me, the divine lives in my heart as the divine lives in everyone’s heart. That's how simple it is.” However a very similar quote is indeed current and comes from the 27 min DVD 'The Greatest Play'. ..near the end. (I think this comes or is available from wordsofpeace.net .. 'wordsofpeace' representing the latest 'branding' name-association and that is also linked with the Sky TV channel) "..Am I the only one? Of course not! This is what has been told year after year since hundreds of thousands of years. Somebody comes again to remind. Look within you for your answers .. not out there.., Look within you for your joy. Look within you for your beauty. So this voice may be different, the words may be a little different. But the message is always the same.." best ..Tommo
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I was pretty sure I'd seen something very similar to this on www.ex-premie.org as well.
Here you can see a clip of him talking about what Masters do: www.ex-premie.org/video/contact.html#staysthesame
and here he talks about his identity with Jesus
www.ex-premie.org/video/pages/jesus.html
www.ex-premie.org/video/pages/xmas1980.html
I was pretty sure there was another clip even closer to the quote you were interested in but I couldn't find it quickly.
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The most important argument against the Maharaji/Prem Rawat`s cult is not the devious exploitation of material wealth nor the happiness/ unhappiness / benefits/ damage by the cult to the individuals who became involved.
The most important argument against the cult is that it is based on a falsehood, which later became a lie and that those people who remained premies became complicit in those lies to a greater or lesser extent.
I will now read the other responses to your post with great interest.
Congratulations, I think your post is wonderful and with a nod to Sir Humphrey Appleby "very courageous".
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"The most important argument
against the cult is that it is based on a falsehood, which later became
a lie and that those people who remained premies became complicit in
those lies to a greater or lesser extent."
As the only person I know who is still seeking justice for the Great Santa Claus Scam, I must ask how you feel about that? So many people complicit in it, even though that leaves each and every parent to dangle squirming on the hook of their child's questioning gaze.
In one article I read on the net about narcissists, the writer says that despite the quite often serious levels of abuse suffered by people at the hands of a narcissist, by far the largest complaint is about the lying.
I agree.
When a conman lies he seeks to convince his mark of the lie. He recognises said patsy has a mind and a world view of his own. And the conman knows, at least roughly, the difference between truth and lie.
In my experience as the daughter of one, the narcissist lies as easily as he eats dinner. There is no truth or lie, only his 'truth' and he does not see a need to convince himself of it, let alone another, only the need to convince them that it is in their better interests to support his world view whatever it may be. And that changes to suit the narcissist. He can indeed with complete ease demand that you believe him even as he conflicts with his own lies ten times before breakfast.
Personally I think the reason I don't have any takers for my anti santa crusade is because heck we liked the presents and all.
I guess we'd be less forgiving if Santa had come down the chimney with his big sack and taken our teddybears leaving a message saying you lost it because you'd been bad.
Lies do have a way of creating hypocrisy, imo of rotting even the innocent believer.
Yet this is what I wrote in my journey, talking to premies at the start -
And maybe, just maybe, like it was for me, you simply don’t want to look at what is happening because you feel too distressed, too sickened when you question whether your loyalties are misplaced, whether you have given your affections wisely, and whether the trust you have given has been fulfilled.
It takes what it takes to break taboos, turn round and face those feelings of betrayal and fear and coolly assess exactly what they are based on.
And that’s just the start of it really. That’s when your roots break through the icy crust and you can finally get round to doing what you want and need to do. Finding answers, learning things and understanding yourself. Tackling the horrendous mess in your garden, getting your roots down into the nourishing soil. Growing up. Flourishing, flowering even, and making your own contract with the mites and the fungi and whatever else, even the honey and the trees.
Eat your eyes out, Rawat, I can speak much better than you!
I am in mourning that I listened to you for so long.
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Lesley, this sings with truth. Thank you - I really appreciate your clear sight (and your elegant writing).
By the way, I hate Santa too. I think lots of people do but don't want to admit it because they're worried that the neighbours will think they're jerks if they don't go along. What we won't all put up with for the sake of belonging, no? You are not alone.
Thanks again for a really thought-provoking post. px
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And then there was that dyslexic Satan worshipper ... accidentally sold his soul to Santa.
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Hooray for Santa Claus! And God bless us, EVERYONE!
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Well my attitude to seeking redress is pretty simple, there is no point in wasting time and energy in a hopeless cause.
And the complicity varies greatly. There are those people who sincerely believe they are only showing the correct videos for "new people" so that they too will have a chance to experience the bliss of Knowledge and who tell "white lies" about what Rawat really means to them for the same reason. Then there are people who are aware of Rawat's actual life but excuse anything done by and for him because they believe he is Guru Maharaj Ji. In the end though I find it difficult to be sure whether I can judge any of these people because if you believe Rawat is an incarnation of God (even if you would no longer use that language) then as Abhay says "Maharaji is Maharaji, he can do anything".
Sure premies must be incredibly ignorant to continue to believe all this stuff after so many years but then they have been putting themselves into trances for all these years too so they can keep believing it so in the end I find myself at a loss. And then there are the children who buy into their parents' beliefs as well. What surprises me the most about that is it seems it can be children whose parents could be considered the worst examples of practising premies.
When in a refelctive mood I find I cannot ascribe blame to any premie, in more pragmatic moods I tend to heap scorn on those called "PAMS" and excuse the rest. Do you have better ideas?
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You're quite right. Seeking justice over the Santa scam is a waste of time and energy, besides I have to suspect that North Pole address of his is dodgy.
And I only ever think about it occasionally. Nonetheless I cannot look a child in the eye and lie about it, even when the parent is ready to take me out if I don't..... though sometimes I mutter something indistinct and run.
Better ideas? No. I don't like thinking about pams much either.
My premie status was not x-rated and I was not 'fringe x-rated' either. One of the flock. My fleece worthy of the odd grooming.
I was also me. Most of my friends were premies. These are people I by that stage had known for a long time. And it turned out, included people who knew the x rated stuff, who knew what was on EPO and knew it was true. And had known it for years.
That's plain out deception. From my perspective what kind of a friend is that?
I shrug my shoulders. Up to them to say.
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I'm presuming that we must have known some of the same people even though my acquaintance was from a long time and space ago compared to yours in most cases. I left way back in the devotional days cause I became quite sure that the meditation wasn't having any real effect on people who less than a decade before had been completely sure that it was and preached about it at length.
But if anyone had told me that over the next 20 and more years most of these people would accept behaviour from their guru that they wouldn't accept from the people next door, that they would rationalise their devotion to the guru as the topmost crest jewel of discrimination and peak experience of life and that they would turn Elan Vital into an ethics free zone for anything connected to the guru I would have said that was ridiculous. But slowly and steadily ...
So children of premies are asking you questions about this in front of their parents? Well I'm glad I'm not there. I don't see many premie children. Last time I did I apologised after I had a minor argument about the Knowledge with the parent. No problem, I was assured. Apparently when they hear maharaji-speak they just roll their eyes and turn off their hearing, it's sort of weirdly similar to the meditation techniques and it, too, works.
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I do not mean to confuse, Santa is Santa I don't joke about Santa or use it as a simile or something.
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I was one for over 30 years Milarepa.I know there are other long-timers who post here too.I can't really say that over 30 years of my life were a waste of time. When I first heard about Maharaji and his nollidge I was a complete agnostic leaning towards being an atheist.What sold it all to me was not the squeaky voiced Guru, but the possibility of a real experience of God within.....premies told me that they had experienced this and after much cross-examination, I believed them. I was in my late teens and had lived a really tough life up until that point; I was a perfect candidate for thinking I needed saving and I was desperate to be able to experience love in my life. For me some of the nollidge tecs. worked ( ie. I had a pleasant, if limited, experience) and still do. Somehow I was opened up to many new experiences.I spoke and learned to really like people I would never have mixed with previous to being a premie; people from all different places and backgrounds and nationalities.I felt this was part of my duty as a premie ( we were all brothers and sisters bla bla ) and I feel it benefited me and I enjoyed the social side.I liked listening to people talking about their lives at satsang. I loved the music and singing.The belief system helped me from slipping into depression.The problem is it also prevented me from facing and dealing with my own mental health issues by seeking professional help. For every plus in premiedom there was a minus and then some more minuses.I gave up my uni. place,gave away all my possessions, became estranged from my long-term friends and family,spent my late teen years with my head spinning round and round in a whirl.......... I learn a bit of commerce along the way with all the fund raising service I did.I gave a lot of money to the mission and made many bad decisions because they were based on how best to serve the lord rather than how best to live my life. For me being a premie was beneficial in some ways but only because my life was so rubbish up until my "conversion".I don't know what would have become of me otherwise,but it may not have been good as I was in a lost and lonely place. I feel that despite the lies that I believed and being misled ,in some strange way I was introduced to a spiritual path and I can never deny the experiences I had even if they were nothing to do with Maharaji and everything to do with myself. In all the endless times I was sent to church and I studied the scriptures and philosophy, I never had the understanding that I feel ,by accident perhaps,being a premie gave me. So, my conclusion is....spiritually it was beneficial but materially, emotionally and in relation to physical and mental health it was often detrimental and sometimes bl###y awful and downright dangerous.
Modified by lexy at Tue, Jul 25, 2006, 19:56:54
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Sorry guys bu it was. For me, being a premie introduced me to some very interesting people, places and aspets of life. M was an enormous source of inspiration to me - and during the early 90s especially, I had a wonderful time globe trotting and being in 'that' place which I eventually outgrew. Was it hard to leave ? psychologically yes, especially as (as will many other people) I had NO regrets, but as a cult they were supremely disinterested in me remaining a 'member'. Do I regret becoming an ex or post premie ? Not in the least. Have I got a strong 'take' on emotional entrapment and belief..... Yes, but at the same ime I still honour he innocent searh whih took me to M, and whih ultimately took me past him o wghere I am now and beyond. Did I detour widely in my life beween he ages of 18 and 33?... its impossible to say cos I wasnt really headed anywhere anyway- but being a premie has, for better and for worse, contributed to he person I am today and I think Im glad I wasnt dumb enough to stick with something that wasnt making me happy or was significantly unhealthy. There are people reading this forum who have been until fairly recently, enjoying the techniques to find peace within (or whatever they are called now) and prem rawats discources. They arent bitter, but something in them is telling them that they dont fit into M's world any more, and its time to move on. Its bloody scary! In many ways I had to get into things I was into before I took Knowledge - like touching base- it reminded me of who I was before the deeebotional detour - and then it took a while for the dust to settle and to get used to being a human being amongst equals. What M does F*ck up BIG TIME is that he provided an INTERIOR role model which was high status, smug and seperate from humanity. I too was used to talking about 'this life' as if I had a handle on it! BUT that particular bomb dismantles itself given enough time in the open air. It corrodes. However deep inside me there is still a part of me longing for my bubble.. but thats the weak spot that took me there in the first place, and I have great pleasure in bursting that bubble as it forms, for another will grow in its place. Without being a Premie I dont think I would have been as aware of the process as I am now. Take care all x
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What M does F*ck up BIG TIME is that he provided an INTERIOR role model which was high status, smug and seperate from humanity. I too was used to talking about 'this life' as if I had a handle on it! Spot on. Well put Loaf.
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I went through some desperate times, during the mid 70s and early 80s, but came out of it quite well. I came to the conclusion in the early 80s that, if one applied the general ethical values of previous masters, and relied upon my own inner voice through meditation, then things went quite nicely. I had recourse to my inner conscience, and found inspiration through Maharaji. I still find a sense of wholesome integration now through meditation, while seeing Maharaji as a flawed teacher. I believe we are still taught by focusing inside ourselves, irrespective of teachers.
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Anthony, Loaf, How about putting your hearts and minds together and finding us all a new guru? It's lonely out here!
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I came to the conclusion in the early 80s that, if one applied the general ethical values of previous masters, and relied upon my own inner voice through meditation, then things went quite nicely. I think I did something like that too, Anthony.There was the small problem of having already rejected Christianity....but the basic tenets had been well and truly drummed into me to the point of auto-pilot.Yes,I mish-mashed it all together to make some kind of coherent sense and followed my self concocted religion with a (too) strong dose of Rawatism and as much meditation as I could muster (not a huge amount). It was all fairly insane in retrospect and there are some parts I deeply regret.The terrible torment I experienced around '73/74/75 when I couldn't seem to do "it" but totally believed that it was " the purpose of having a human body"....you know...trying to remember holy name 24/7...what a load of torturous shite.I thought most others could do it....I was young ....I desperately tried to make the grade by doing "humbling" service and wandering around in those vile sexless mother nature fashions dresses smiling like an idiot. Excuse me while I puke.
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'vile sexless mother nature fashions dresses smiling like an idiot.' I loved them, personally.
Absolutely adorable. Yummy. Give me more. Can you not forget those early days now, and feel freer? It's so long ago. As I may have said - reject it all. You used to be a Christian, maybe like me. I feel that internally I have the feeling of being looked after. I feel that strongly at the moment, that by having expressed clearly all my feelings on all this, that there is a power that respects me and is now seeking to look after me. By rejecting honestly everything we think has been lousy or detrimental to us, we find that something inside us still remains and honours us. For some reason at the moment, something inside me is giving me strong support.
I've bravely made my statements about all of this, like you. Just be honest and straight and I'm finding that something is happening for me. Just be honest, good natured and generally decent, and the universe comes running towards you.
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I feel that strongly at the moment, that by having expressed clearly all my feelings on all this, that there is a power that respects me and is now seeking to look after me. And I thought I was the only one! If anyone needed any further proof of synchronicity, this has to be it. Tell me, did you feel that power inside by chance? Wow, me too!!
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Tell me, did you feel that power inside by chance? Funny, isn't it, how we can only wonder "are you feeling what I'm feeling?" Is that comical or tragic, I wonder. But isn't it natural for people to feel inclined to speak of what they're experiencing even if the sad truth is nobody can ever be sure what the other is talking about? The mistake is assuming that you're coming across loud and clear. Yes, that is fodder for mockery, I suppose.
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>The mistake is assuming that you're coming across loud and clear.< Human language has almost nothing in it that is wholly unambiguous - which is why Science has to be so tortuously disciplined. Human communication is predominantly about 'broadcasting' what we want others to believe and 'receiving' that which we deem valuable to us; there is an almost constant mismatch between 'broadcast' and 'reception' - and satsang was no more immune to that mismatch than any other human interaction. And not only can we have no certain knowledge of what another human has empirically experienced - we can not know whether their claim to that experience is true or false. Nik
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I seem to remember that, in some ashrams at least, the process of sharing satsang between premies led to a situation where the normal skills of human conversation were gradually lost, and many people ended up merely learning to "broadcast" the same cult-speak that they'd spent all day receiving. And we ended up with a situation in which premie parroted premie in praise of Prem Pal, as he peddled his patter on peace and perfection !
Modified by cq at Fri, Jul 28, 2006, 13:03:39
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premie parroted premie in praise of Prem Pal, as he peddled his patter on peace and perfection !
Nice one Peter Piper
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According to John MacGregor, in his second post to Forum 7 called " The Second Coming" "M. eats chillis raw 4 at a time and believes they have euphoric qualities"
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/macgregor2.htm
Modified by lexy at Fri, Jul 28, 2006, 12:58:01
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...but I`ve never tried to get high on them myself! thanks Lexy
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You obviously have not tried Chief Wiggum's chilli, and his Quatemalan Insanity Peppers.
Modified by LP at Sat, Jul 29, 2006, 04:55:19
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... is this something you are recommending LP ? If so, where do I get it?
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Hi Milarepa: Springfield Annual Chili Cook-Off.
(Simpsons 8th season, episode 162
El Viaje Mysterioso De Nuestro Homer (a.k.a. The Mysterious Voyage Of Our Homer)
Remembering last year, Marge tries to hide the big annual chili
cook-off from Homer. When he figures it out, she makes him promise not
to drink any beer. Homer is known as the dude with the fireproof
stomach and Chief Wiggum brews up some chili with Guatemalan insanity
peppers, and it burns the hell out of Homer's mouth. He decides to put
wax in his mouth, so he can eat the peppers whole. After eating a few,
he begins hallucinating and Homer runs off into the sunset and
experiences a strange psychedelic journey. The rest of the family leaves without
him after he embarrasses them. On his journey, Homer meets a talking
coyote who tells him to find his soul mate. He wakes up on a golf
course and begins his search. Marge is upset with him, making him think
it is not her. Homer ends up at a lighthouse, where Marge eventually
finds him. Because she found him, he figures out that she IS his soul
mate. A ship crashes at the lighthouse, leaving short shorts
everywhere.
btw this thread you started is looking like a contender for the longest: and most varied in subject matter.
Modified by LP at Sat, Jul 29, 2006, 14:46:40
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btw this thread you started is looking like a contender for the longest: and most varied in subject matter.
I`m pleased with the response... it`s fascinating. I just wanted to encourage honesty and rational debate. This is a subject close to my heart... like it is for all of the posters here.
Modified by Milarepa at Sun, Jul 30, 2006, 04:13:44
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"encourage honesty and rational debate"
This is what the forum does so well and which Rawatism does not do. A lack of these virtues alone, is a signal that all is not well.
But the world seems unreal from that premie perspective: there seems nowhere to go. In transition; neither world may seem real. Ex-ing is terrifyingly uncertain because one's basis for rational thinking and honesty to oneself has been undermined.
I think now I would put it that:
This forum provides the most likely possibility that exists of turning any thing that happened in the cult mind set into a positive attribute.
It might be possible to do it alone but I couldn't say. 30 yrs just went by in a blur and I don't really know if I was anywhere for sure, but I was certainly not moving very much until I found you: collectively.
My evidence is based on a few months of knowing posters here; as much as words may allow. You, collectively, are a good thing. To what that may be attributed, is a matter for speculation, but because you "encourage honesty and rational debate" I am very glad you are all here.
Lp
Modified by LP at Sun, Jul 30, 2006, 12:25:05
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......and I can relate to some of your present day experience but I am exasperated when you ask "Can you not forget those early days now, and feel freer?It's so long ago.As I may have said - reject it all." GRRR...of course I can forget all that and of course it was so long ago.....but I was seriously trying to answer Milarepa's question about "Was anything beneficial...etc"so I was scanning back and recalling all my years in the cult and searching for any benefits.Naturally I came across things that were definitely NOT beneficial. This forum is probably read by many people and who knows if some of my recollections may resonate with and help someone somewhere?;maybe someone reading for the first time. So you see I'm not harping on these issues 'cos I'm stuck there. The clothes I wore in my early divine days were vile,I can assure you.I gave all my nice ,teen,sexy clothes to Divine sales. To me the memory is symbolic with giving away my identity and in some way, my very self.This can happen to a teenager. Maybe the fact that my son is a teenager and so open and trusting has re-sensitised me to this part of my life.I would hate any kind of brainwashy cult to get their hands on him. You used to be a Christian, maybe like me. I feel that internally I have the feeling of being looked after. When I was a premie I thought that some divine power was looking after me.I haven't quite made the transition from the old beliefs to the revamped ones.I don't like the idea of being alone and lost with no help and atheism doesn't appeal to me at all. I was a christian when very young but rejected it all as a teenager ( when atheism or at least being an agnostic did appeal). At the moment I am devising my own belief system once again but this time Rawat and his philosophies feature far far less !
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"Can you not forget those early days now, and feel freer?It's so long ago.As I may have said - reject it all." Yeah lets hear it for the revisionists - move on and forget about it ! I don't think so. N
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