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I think the psychological part of the beliefs we had in the cult, and how they were tied up with strong emotional feelings, is a very fascinating subject, and something I kind of had to unravel on strand at a time. In regard to romantic relationships, I also can say that the feelings I have had are similar to some of the feelings I had in connection with Rawat. One of the big differences is that in a love relationship you have to deal with a real person and you grow as a person as a result. And I would also say that growing in a relationship, even if it doesn't last forever, had a profound impact on how I related to others and to the world. With Rawat, since most of us never really dealt with him as a person in our lives, he was essentially a fantasy and so it was stagnating. I also had the feeling while a premie that what I was supposedly getting from being a premie did not translate in any way to benefitting the world, and that was something I had to "surrender." I was supposed to just let Rawat do it with his grace. It was always a problem for me, which I really saw in interactions with other people. I felt a tad dishonest, or maybe not genuine, and, for the most part, until near the end, that just made me want to cling more desperately to the cult, and believe even more that "the world" held nothing for me, like Maharaji always said.
Modified by Joe at Wed, Jul 19, 2006, 14:54:07
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> With Rawat, since most of us never really dealt with him as a person in our lives, he was essentially a fantasy and so it was stagnating < A fantasy, yes, but a living fantasy. I wonder if the reason why devotion to rawat is so disruptive to the emotional well-being of people is precisely because rawat, while not someone that most of us know personally, is still a real person, and relatable to. (I must admit that I'm speculating here rather than exploring my own feelings because I can no longer relate to having any feelings towards rawat at all. ) But it does seem like followers of other, traditional religions, manage to combine both worldly and spiritual love in an health way. Perhaps because the object of worship in those cases is clearly other-worldly, the mind can compartmentalize the two emotions more successfully. The problem for the devotee of rawat is that although he remains for the most part a distant being, yet his behaviour is sufficiently human - his smiles, his jokes, (as Bobby Hendry once said) the way he hitches up his trousers when he gets out of a car, are all human mannerisms which could trigger a human response in a way that a devotee of Jesus would never be subjected to. And so while meditation and a spiritual orientation might evoke spiritual feelings of love, any focus on rawat as a human being will call for a human response. So the two compartments, human and spiritual , will be forever "leaking" and thus causing conflict and confusion. Just my 2 cents worth. rgj
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I agree that the fact that Rawat is a live person changes the dynamics from a disembodied "God." But all I was referring to was human love and how love for the distant divine being is based on fantasy, rather than love between humans which can start out as fantasy, but changes with day-to-day reality, either making the relationship stronger, or ending it. Personally, I do not believe in "spiritual love." I think there is just love, period, and it's a very human thing, but very powerful nonetheless. I don't think spiritual or transcendental love exists except in the minds of people striving for something that is entirely made up. Also, I think a lot of people got involved with Rawat because they had a distinct lack of love in their lives and were looking for it. Maybe also they had experienced a lot of neglect in that department, and held on to the fantasy of Rawat because they were afraid of being rejected once again.
Frankly, I think one of the biggest fears premies have is being overtly rejected by Rawat. That's why they can never, ever criticize him. Even though they know him not at all, and have no evidence that he gives a rats ass about them, like abused children, they hold on nonetheless because they fear he is all they have, either in the bullshit "spiritual" sense, or even in the broader, human sense.
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Thanks for reviving my post  Here's a reply to part of what you said...
In regard to romantic
relationships, I also can say that the feelings I have had are similar
to some of the feelings I had in connection with Rawat. One of the big
differences is that in a love relationship you have to deal with a real
person and you grow as a person as a result. And I would also say that
growing in a relationship, even if it doesn't last forever, had a
profound impact on how I related to others and to the world.
Because of the romanticized version most people have of Rawat and the lack of real contact with him, premies have the room to create a fantasy of what he's really like. In one sense it's taking that initial stage of romantic attraction and stringing it out forever because you never get to meet the real person!
Imagine my disappointment when after 25 years of fantasy devotion learning that the real deal was not better but worse than that fantasy. Something we've all been through on one level or another. I remember it feeling like the worst breakup of my life, because I loved Rawat (or rather my fantasy idea of him) more than I ever loved anyone. I had real relationships with real people but he was always first, deep down. I'm just glad it's over and I can get on with living life without all that extra baggage.
Mary
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Imagine my disappointment when after 25 years of fantasy devotion learning that the real deal was not better but worse than that fantasy. Something we've all been through on one level or another. I remember it feeling like the worst breakup of my life, because I loved Rawat (or rather my fantasy idea of him) more than I ever loved anyone Yeah, I can just imagine. Are you talking about actually being around Rawat the person and that you became disillusioned as a reault of that? I guess for me, it wasn't really like a breakup; it was more like I lost what I had believed was the purpose or basis of my life. So, it was disorienting not to be going around thinking that what I had "inside" and what I had "with Maharaji" was more real that other purposes and relationships. It took me awhile to "unlearn" that ever after I not longer rationally believed it. It existed on an emotional, automatic level as well as on a "belief" level.
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Yes, I became disillusioned with everything to do with Rawat as a direct result of my experience working for him. In my experience, he is not the man he purports to be. Once I had lost faith in the man, his goods just didn't have the same zing.
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For what seems an age, though, I laboured on under an impression that I had blown it: that he was that way with me; because I deserved it, because I had failed to achieve sufficient devotion.
It took a long time for me to realize that this was his general behaviour, and that this meant that his divine claims were groundless, and that meant that he was a liar, and that means he doesn't deserve love or anything else from me or anyone else.
Somehow premie's enthusiasm on the outer circles who do not see him how he really is; was easier to go along with. Enthusiasm is not the word, sometimes people looked as bored as me.
Their belief that they had seen proof that couldn't be argued against, dragged me along, they were all the community I had. I jumped in the van with the others, or booked the flight at the last minute. "You've gotta go" they insist, even lend the plane fare: it's not easy to break away.
Returning days later with an "I knew it would be an anticlimax" feeling, having taken the advice of all your friends.
Once one is made to feel inadequate one keeps coming back. He had our sense of self value. We'd given him the key to our gas cap.
Lp
Modified by LP at Sat, Jul 22, 2006, 16:03:49
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Well now, I suppose on a day like this, he wakes up and feels especially mighty. I suppose it is only a matter of time before we hear amar claim something similar.
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Modified by Joe at Wed, Jul 19, 2006, 16:59:57
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If Shri Hans died in the early hours on the 19th July then it is not until the 1st August that Prem became the whole shebang.
I can see taht it is a little ambiguous. Possibly it took 13 days for him to realise he was now the whole shebang but I go with the 1st August date because you're not the whoel shebang until you know you're the whole shebang. Omniscience is required. He specifies that it was on the 13th day after his father's death that:
On the day Shri Maharaj Ji left his body, a disciple tearfully begged
to speak once more with his master. The young Guru Maharaj Ji had
replied, "Shri Maharaj Ji has only left his body, but his spiritual
body is still here, and he will appear again after a few days." At the
time, he did not fully realize that this power was within him.
"I went home (from school) and everyone was, weeping. I was
just sitting there not weeping and something began to happen to me. I
began to feel that I am not this body; that I could not move thesp
lips. I always thought that the soul would leave by the mouth, but my
mouth was shut. Still I felt like I was leaving my body and my soul was
everywhere going out. And this voice came to me saying, 'You are he,
you are the one to continue.'
"Then I puzzled over the voice. Thirteen days later, I was
doing pranam to my Father's ashes and bones. You know, in India they
burn the bodies and thirteen days later you go and collect the ashes. I
bent down to touch the ashes, the voice came: 'You are he. You are the
one to go and give this to the world."'
On August 1st, Guru Maharaj Ji, eight years old, stood in front
of the thousands of devotees present at his father's funeral. The voice
came again, saying:
"This is the last I will tell you. You are he. You must take this Knowledge out to the world."
"For the first time," says Guru Maharaj Ji, "I did not give
satsang. The satsang just came and I began to speak: Dear children of
God, why are you weeping? Haven't you learned the lesson that your
master taught you? The Perfect Master never dies. Maharaj Ji is here,
amongst you now."
Immediately his mother, three elder brothers and all the
mahatmas present, prostrated at the feet of the Perfect Master and
received his blessings.
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I don't know much about other people, but there is really nothing quite like that initial falling in love honeymoon phase in romantic/sexual love. Gosh, I am not sure if my feeling for the guru were ever remotely as powerful as those feelings. But I do see a comparison to the "honeymoon stage" of a love relationship. Those of us in reasonably fufilling long term relationships know that this does not last forever. It is replaced with another, if you are lucky, stronger kind of love, but I don't think it reminds me of the guru at all. It may be a stronger kind of love, a bond less easily broken than initial romantic love, but for me, it doesn't have the "high" that a new romantic partner triggers...which I think may be really 99% biology and our drive to reproduce. But to me having a life partner is very important, and I love mine very very much, and he loves me, and we accept eachother warts and all...and thats...well...amazing! For those of you who are parents, a new baby, for most of us, brings about similar strong strong emotions, feelings of protection, intense obsession and love. Some of that I know is hormones too...breastfeeding actually releases oxytocin and prolactin...two hormones that like endorphins bring about very good feelings. I think post partum depression also is some variation for most women of those hormones gone awry. Then there are all the other kinds of love....I love my family, my mom, my friends....gosh in a way I think I even love some of you! I think there is a sort of love that people can feel for humanity in general, and certainly we love our pets....and I would trust my dog's loving loyalty to me far more than I would trust mine to him. I don't know about you all, but I think some dogs really do LOVE their owners or families. But yes, original point, there is something about that initial infatuation, falling in love phase of a new relationship that is akin to the "festival/Darshan high" I sometimes got. I think that is why a lot of affairs happen, those feelings are powerful and it takes some maturity and experience to recognize them beginning, and if you value your marraige/relationship....to get yourself the hell out of the way of temptation!
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Hi Susan,
Nice overview on the different types of love. It's helping me sort this out. There's definitely biology going on in the brain when one is attracted to another...it was interesting to learn in one of my courses that when this is taking place that the section of the brain that reasons is temporarily turned off to a certain degree.
And in a social psychology course they mentioned that when trying to sell to someone, you want them to be "happy"...when one is happy the defenses and critical thinking are less.
I don't think that my ongoing feelings of meditation were in the realm of initial romantic attraction - that is definitely more powerful. But similar...not physically attracted, but the emotional love part. I also learned in one of my courses that men have a stronger need for love than women...not sex, love. There's actually a part of the brain that needs emotional love and they've measured it. I wonder if meditation in some people taps into that part of the brain...
Mary
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One to three years they reckon for the honeymoon to last. A
description of the process I heard which made a lot of sense went
thusly –
It isn’t that you have now fallen out of love, it is that you have become accustomed to eachother.
In the real world, ie with the bloke I fell in love with, we shifted through happily.
But the guru?
All that blather - feel the thirst, if the cup is not empty how can it
be filled that Rawat wallows in could be stated less coyly if he were
to suggest we all do an improvisation with him in which we imagine we
have lost that which we love and then imagine we have found it again.
It’s a pretty cheap trick really. And he plays it to the hilt. And
his repertoire is all downhill from there. The next thing you know
he’s insisting that you have to beg for it.
Where's the romance in that I ask. It's enough to make you reach for
that book of fairy tales and read the one about the wolf in sheep's
clothing.
Which, by the by is why I wonder if that book of fairy tales shouldn't
be reserved for later on, as we leave home along with the injunction - read
them and weep. 
Modified by lesley at Thu, Jul 20, 2006, 15:31:13
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Hi Mary, Your post covers some of my own questions re. the way that Meditation triggered that "love" feeling. I
found that the "love" I felt was often inappropriate in every day
life.I was "opened up" , gullible and very vulnerable to exploitation
by the kind of people who can detect this kind of weakness from 1000
metres.Often the people I felt "love" towards deserved nothing from me
( and they knew it ). I rummaged around in the archives as I remembered an old post of Susan's which IMO contained some useful advice. ( see link) A pity your post is hidden away down here as it was very interesting. Best wishes, Lexy.
Related link: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/f8archive/posts/8523.html
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Hi Lexy,
Thanks for your reply and the link. I moved your post up here, I hope you don't mind.
The summer of 2004 when I first ex'ed, I attended a cult recovery workshop put on by the AFF, now called ICSA. I remember especially one presentation where the therapist talked about how in the "normal" non-cult world, a person has various relationships emanating out from herself in circles. In the first circle, you are there with yourself. The next circle out maybe there's a spouse and a few life-long friends; beyond that are acquaintances, and outside that everybody else.
She spoke about how when we are in a cult we have immediate intimacy and trust with other cult members. I definitely experienced this, having joined at 18. Most of my friends throughout adulthood were premies. It was a real eye-opener to realize that most people get to know each other very gradually, each person giving a little more information and waiting to see if the other reciprocates. And of course in premie circles there is always the class system, but a certain amount of automatic intimacy was there.
I believe the meditation, the adoration of Rawat, as well as this peer environment opens a person up and can leave them vulnerable, as you described. It is a very gradual process learning the social skills of the regular world when one has lived in a cult mind-set for a long time. For me it was subtle, because I had long-term romantic partners with non-premies while in the cult and a regular job. But for people born and raised in cults and for people who have worked close to Rawat for a long time (like his personal staff) I think it is very difficult to get a footing in the regular world and takes a long time. I don't think the people on Rawat's personal staff have a clue how hard it would be to make the transition.
But having made it (and of course it's a process still in process ) I feel a huge sense of relief. I feel like I was living in a dream world and I have finally woken up. The real world is not always as pretty as the picture Rawat tries to paint, but IT'S THE REAL WORLD. In one sense premies haven't grown up yet, have they? Still believing in Santa Claus...
Best wishes to you too,
Mary
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Thanks, Mary. Your post was interesting and very helpful to me. I appreciate that you wrote it. The tremendous waste of people stuck in rawat addiction is horrifying. It's not that I want or expect everyone to make startling and profound contributions to humanity. But, we all should do what we can to be present to those in our lives. People caught in a rawat addiction seem unable to do that. That is sad. And if you are one of those people living on the outside edges of a premie's awareness, it is painful.
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http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0602/feature2/ Hi All, I was just reading this Tuesday in an old National Geo at the tire store. I haven't posted in awhile. Don't know why. I have been reading, but nothing sparked in me anything to say. So is it all brain chemistry? I was looking at the fat guy dance in the posts above. I found it really strange to look at the faces in the crowd, knowing I was there- knowing I looked like them, knowing what I felt. How could something SO wrong and SO false elicit such emotions? It feels so very far away from me now. I meditate and there are times that I feel deeply moved by what is going on inside. I don't use the big k. I don't want anything to do with it. But, gosh darn that foot worshipping sludge, I still don't understand how I (we) got sucked into it. It makes about as much sense as self flagellation. I just cannot relate. Karen K
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Hi Karen,
I sometimes wonder that too. I don't know how long you've been reading, because I come and go here, so forgive me if what I say is redundant to what you've read or already know.
It helped me to read some of the professional cult literature, e.g., Cults in Our Midst, and took a social psychology course to understand how easily people are manipulated, especially when they are wanting something to give them answers and help them feel good. Especially when they are young and impressionable. Especially when they are going through a transition. Can happen to anyone. I don't know when you got involved, but if it was in the 70's we also had the Eastern influence being hip in our culture and anti-establishment thinking from the Vietnam era to add to the attraction. But I still kick myself for going off on this 29-year tangent, even knowing rationally why it happens.
Good article. Thanks for posting it. -- Mary
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