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"When a lot of the mahatmas came to the West they brought with them
immeasurable amount of concepts and it kinda went wild and there was no
stopping it and the backlash of that I had to directly bear because
people would ask me point blank these questions"
Leaving aside that bullshit about the 58 languages, was there ever a crazy mahatma concept that made it into the press so that Rawat was questioned about it?
As he was spreading the information that he was God Incarnate Himself and that he taught the same Knowledge as his father and Jesus Christ and was indeed the incarnation of them what else was there that journalists cared about and questioned him on re his "teachings"? Oh there was "Maharaji are you the perfect body?"
Does anybody know if Rawat has a reasonable reason to complain about any mahatma concepts?
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I think it's an issue of semantics. If for 'concepts' one substitutes the word 'belief' then I think Rawat's meaning becomes clearer - he's complaining that the mahatmas believed things, that they then encouraged other people to believe those same things and that's wrong because you shouldn't believe anything - premies should be utterly 'conceptless'. This is of course a dictum of 'empty minded' totalitarianism - just play out your mechanical role in the divine scheme of things and listen to the master/furher for regular updates on how to have 'experience'. N
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But they're actually darn Maharaji concepts. Were there any specifically mahatma ones?
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Ocker, Maharaji was obviously the source of those “wild” concepts, which were simply parroted by the mahatmas. There were no specific mahatma concepts. Mahatmas, DUO Directors etc. either toed the party line or they were gone. Remember people suddenly being removed from office? M's attempt to blame the mahatma's for all the “God” statements recorded in DLM publications and for the resultant beliefs that premies had, is typical of the guy. He never takes responsibility for anything he does or says and is always quick to blame someone else for his mistakes. As the scans from the DLM publications show, beyond a show of a doubt, all those concepts came directly from Maharaji.
Modified by Steve at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 18:12:06
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wow yeah OK and I was one that came in after all the cover ups 82 -83 and never got a straight answer
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Hi geo,
There was no satsang in my neck of the woods after the ashram closing circa 1982. How did you hear about K? Where are you from. Who instructed you? How long did you have to wait?
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Steve Is Right ON! This attachment is from The Divine Times. November, 1975 Page 2. The next attachment is the one that I want people to see.
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Correct me if I'm wrong... but it sounds like Prem Rawat was in charge of everything even back then. This attachment is from The Divine Times. November, 1975 Page 3.
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Here is Rawat, who seems to love to blame everyone but himself for everything, saying that if a directive comes out signed by Mishler, that he Rawat, had ok'd it. He also clarifies for the Jossi's of the world that deny when Prem talked about Guru Maharaj Ji he was referring to himself, that he is indeed talking about himself. That was the last sentence. Take that Jossi. As if he would listen to logic,
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"Look at yourself as a servant doing service to Guru Maharaj Ji. And it is service, so it should be done in the maximum best way you can do it. Because it is to Guru Maharaj Ji. You are doing this service for me." Tell me about it. There's the cult in a nutshell. Anyone who thinks Captain Rawat doesn't have full control over everything that's done around him, at programs, at home, everywhere, is wrong. He's a micro-manager and a control freak. There isn't a stage set or a chair that he sits upon that isn't first approved by him. No press releases go out without his prior approval. If something goes wrong he blames everyone else. He's the quintessential narcissist personality. I call doing service around Maharaji the "impeccability imperative." "The chances are you've never seen the other side of me. You've seen the event side of me when I'm on stage. But there is another side of me. If you evoke that side, you won't like it. It's a nasty side. You don't want to see that side. You're not missing anything by not seeing it."
- Prem Rawat, Arundel England, 23rd July 1999.
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 08:28:42
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You should make a note about Maharaji's total control. It would be funny to see Jpssi's reaction.
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I very much admire the people who have the patience for Jossi and battleing his revisionism. But he has been given AMPLE AMPLE proof over and over and his goal is not to be accurate its just to gain some small foothold of legitimacy for Rawat on Wikipedia...which has rules that people with an agenda can exploit to give the worst of the worst a soapbox for their favorite nutcase cause. My opinion is...let Jossi have it. The thing reads fishy anyway and most people with a brain are gonna smell cult all over everything he has written there. Not to denigrate to efforts of those who fight it, but the rules have to change before I would ever try.
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Hi Axis, Jossi wouldn't remember that quote because he didn't get knowledge until around 1981 or so. He did live in an ashram though, so he might have read it. Every time I've tried to put something in front of Jossi Fresco he's either ignored it, archived it, or said "There's no point in rehasing this." ?? For instance, when I put the original knowledge vow on the talk page of the "Current teachings of Prem Rawat" he archived the page. The lastest bit of revisionism is recent. Momento, another premie editor has claimed that "all" editors agreed that ex-premies are too insignificant to warrant any mention in the main article, even a link to EPO at the bottom of the page. It's a complete lie. Cue in the Twilight Zone music... 
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 15:25:17
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Fine, 'beliefs' is OK. But that's not what Rawat meant. He specifies that it was the difficult questioning of him that these mahatma beliefs created that is the problem and why propagation hasn't succeeded. I wasn't around until 1973 and I'm asking were there any such mahatma beliefs?
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learned at the lotus feet
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"That people were very open to Knowledge, that
people were very open to me and I really don’t think that I have ever
felt that that has changed. People are still very open and when they
listen and what they hear they’re just as fascinated by it as they were
when I was a little boy talking about the same stuff."
Once again, to be fair to Rawat. Did he actually not know that he was one of the most reviled and derided of the 70's gurus? The Baskins and Robbins guzzling pudgy boy guru. Kent in 'From Slogans to Mantras' has even gone back to the records of underground press of the day and discovered that he was the most reviled and despised of them all.
Did premies somehow never let any of this information get to him? Is he just totally ignorant? I mean it's not as if anyone at the training session got up and said, "Look I'm very sorry to have to tell you this, Master, but to the world at large you're a pathetic joke and we know that this training session is just a ridiculous waste of time cause propagation is going to continue to be a bust but seeing as we're all here anyway, may we kiss your feet?"
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True Ocker, that's a revealing bit of text. "That people were very open to Knowledge, that people were very open to me and I really don’t think that I have ever felt that that has changed. People are still very open and when they listen and what they hear they’re just as fascinated by it as they were when I was a little boy talking about the same stuff." [ My emphasis added]
Today, if I found myself on the receiving end of such a glib bid for my intelligence, I would feel the need to leave the room quick. Insulting. The guy has become focused on the commonplace business of persuading. Here he appears to make it his whole life game. I note his fully conscious distinction- "open to knowledge"/"open to me". He is obviously cooly aware of the need to charm people "open" in order to penetrate them with his "message". Bearable in for the marketplace, but in the milieu of "self-knowledge?" Gross. Interesting that having emphasised the K/Me split again himself, he seems to imply that it remains conveniently blurred in his audience:- "they’re just as fascinated by it as they were when I was a little boy His intention and imo pleasure is no more than to engender fascination in others at any price. He thinks that it is his unexamined right to do so, and hang the consequences. He loves it! He is a walking pair of headlights looking for a rabbit! Good Morning all! Bryn
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He is a walking pair of headlights looking for a rabbit!
Oh BD what a choice phrase - and one thing which betrays the power of the gift of knowledge is the use to which many of us have put it, for who hasnt found that a little of M's 'unique' perspective is a great chat up line?? We are suicide bunnies, addicted to the comforting glow of the fast approaching (but in these days dipped, not full beam) twin halogen perfect master.
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Getting the premie shine was my very first motivation when I stumbled into the Palace of Peace all those years ago. After a while though I wasn't going to be happy with sporting anything less than the full guru charisma! I'm sure you have similar embarrasing memories. Not so long ago in my case though! What a journey. Got a late delivery of mail at the trailer, and lo it contained three tickets from Elan Vital to see "Him" at Brighton. When I opened the envelope and saw the graphics, pitch, etc I literally burst out laughing-no exageration-"What the f... is this?!. Wots this got to do with me? That picture of Prem Rawat making a strange "perfecto/finger-thumb circle" and staring omnisciently at the camera! Pure panto. Sphinx and sphinctre. Yours in exotic time signatures Bryn
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Hi Susan and your right about this.
Modified by Hilltop at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 02:11:24
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Here is the pic of Prem Rawat with some pie on his face. I wonder what would happen if someone spit on his face?
Modified by Hilltop at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 03:42:39
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Just in case someone doesn't bother to open that letter from Pat Halley (pronounced like the comet) to Rawat. I spoke to Pat once or twice on the phone. He told me he still had books with his 30 year blood spatter on them. He still distrusts premies because premies tried to kill him. This was originally posted by Silvia, on August 10, 2003. Patrick does not use the Internet. He gave me this letter addressed to Prem Rawat, also known by about "200 hundred other names" and asked me to post it here. Open Letter to Guru Maharaji on the 30th Anniversary of A Pie in Your Face Dear fakir, Thirty year ago, August 15, 1973 you came to Detroit on a public relations tour to attract followers (customers). It was in Detroit where I threw a pie in your face. I think I missed a spot. Would you please come back, oh self-proclaimed "Master of the Universe"? A lazy reporter, merely reprinting your P.R. department news release said in the newspaper that you were the reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna- that "God had returned to the planet!" Pardon my impatience but, after reading this news I wrote a list of demands asking for among other things: "12 fingers, money to grow on trees, no more mosquitoes," etc. It has been 30 years, "God", and still you have ignored our pleas in Detroit. Maybe you are in the wrong racket and should have been a sword swallower, or a snake charmer like your fakir brothers in India. You told your followers after I threw the pie in your face at the Detroit City Council that in my "next life" I would be a micro-organism. Is this supposed to scare me? Brother, I had been through heaven and back while you were learning how to play with your "tweenkee". There is no reincarnation, because there is no individual soul. This you would know if you ever step off the planet, you, couch potato of the universe! I admit you have a good gig. You got rich milking the intellectual tourists of America. But I hear you have become a drunk and that your brother has become the "true perfect master" in Canada. Boy, the universe has shrunk in a very short time. Listen, carnival boy, you hurt a lot of people financially and in many ways. Plus, you broke a lot of hearts. You even sent two of your goons, Mahatma Fakiranand and premie Fletcher to kill me. They busted my head and I almost died from the hole in my skull. I am a chipped diamond, but my head is a jewel on the hand of the Earth Goddess while you are an impostor and a fat drunk. I will outlive you, though I am older and that I was damaged; I will note fondly the day that you die and will applaud using one hand, of course. Patrick Halley 
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"Knowledge works, look you mean, let’s face it,
Knowledge works. The Master when given that right environment does his
thing and it’s great. It all works."
At least I've found out where the "Knowledge Works" mantra came from. Not exactly the most brilliant and memorable public speaker is our Prem. "does his thing" indeed. How about: "We shall go on to the end, we shall remember third technique in France, we shall remember third technique on the seas and oceans, we shall remember third technique with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Master, whatever the cost may be, we shall remember third technique on the beaches, we shall remember third technique on the landing grounds, we shall remember third technique in the fields and in the streets, we shall remember third technique in the hills; we shall never surrender" Whoops, we shall always surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji!
Yes Knowledge Works. It works as well as any other two bit guru and his aging followers except that as Rawat isn't a very nice guru it doesn't work nearly as well as it could and it certainly doesn't work as well as it would if it really was the Knowledge of the Source of Life, the fount of Inner Peace and the Divine Light of God or were they all mahatma concepts?
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if knowledge is the meditation tech. It worked for me without GMJ worship . I got it in 82 when all that was phased out .I am just upset with the lies and hypocrisy . I am not trying to tell you what to do but I ask can you meditate without him , I can but that is me .yeah I am pissed about it all you have more reason to be . But to get into meditating anger has to be let go off.Then when you get done with meditating allow youself some anger .None of us can be anger free 100% of the time .and that is OK .There have been times when really bad and unjust things have happenned to me .All I could do was remember bliss but could not get there .Forgiveness is hard and anger gose with it .I am not saying forgive GMJ ,but anger dose go away .and I would not want his Kharma BUT this is my perpective and not be for you .and the whole LIE pisses me off too like fuck you GMJ I don't need you to meditate or have bliss , I appreciate the tehcs ,but like you say GMJ it is in me .NOW go sit on your yatch
Modified by geo at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 16:06:17
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...that mispelling of yacht was deliberate.....who are you ? ....'cos I think you're havin' a laugh and should be deleted. Convince me otherwise.
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lexy yes I was having a laugh with the jokes .I just got turned on to X premie .org .and it answered alot of questions .I got K in 82 mostly from tapes and videos .there was some ashram satsong were premies talked but that stopped and all the old divine lite pubs were called back . and now I see the deception .but all the premeies told me I did not have to worship GMJ even though I did fall into giving him some magical significance.It took me a long time to open up to knowledge well 9 mos and alot to put it into a place where I could accept it .Yes I thought him a great teacher but not lord of the universe !In FACT I never heard of the lord of the universe till last month on the web .see how good the deception was lexy ! I've spent years justifing events in my mind and the K.After the closing of the Ashrams and the secercy . I went on my own for years and would meditate but I belived I was given a tool .I never bought into it came from him . If I went to a meeting in the 70's I'd a laughfed my balls off and walked . Yeah that is deception on GMJ's part and I do not like it .I worked in one of the health food stores 4&1/2 yrs .half premie half just new age whatevers.Yes I kept my mouth shut there.I never gave money to the cause I was not HURT and USED as the premies in the ashrams were .So I am NOT as pissed.I conviced myself that here was this great teacher surrounded by snakes some poisonous some just harmless trash monks trying .Going to a program was like Indiana Jones walking thru a temple of snakes and M charmed them all .The videos were all for asperants and old news.Fuck it I can meditate on my own .YES occasionally I would get sucked into the magnatism of GMJ and feel gogogaga ! But reading X-pem I see the lies came down from the top.sorry I like the meditation and I don't need HIM .I do not want to defend him or guru triks but twisting peoples faith and useing there god experince is wrong christian born agains do the same thing without the meditation .Buddha found it on his own with out a guru to worship besides I always thought guru is one who reveals the lite .I never allowed gmj to be more than that .However that is no excuse for him to lie and deceive . talk to you later lexy OK the difference from the 70's LORD OF THE UNIVERSE to the mid 80' I never got the satguru stuff because he asked all his premies to Burn all the old publications .It is like a whole different mind set as to when some one got K , I can see clearly now . so go easy on me lexy before I start to thinking you are the thought police lexy are most of the people on this thread Aussies I am American where are you from England or Austrailia ?
Modified by geo at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 20:07:55
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Hi Geo Sorry if I seemed like the thought police. It's just that in the past there have been premie " trolls" who have invented a persona and won over people's confidence but have really only come here to disrupt. Often these trolls are Australian, don't introduce themselves , can't spell, and write in big blocks without paragraphs.........and unfortunately Geo you seemed to inadvertantly fit the stereotype.I had assumed you were an Aussie and not American. Thanks for your interesting story.Lexy. `
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Lexy that bothers me to , If I give to much out about myself I don't want no lawyer on my ass .Even though there is no capital to to take . The whole thing of trying to shut this site down really is sick . M is an abusive lover and you probaly had a worse experience than I did . But I got alot of pent up stuff from trying to fiqure things out on my own . I may be abrasive but was really trying to be funny cause humor dose heal but only if the timming is right . and your grandma joke was right on cause I can see her actually saying that . I thougt if someone else could pick up and write some make believe scenarios about M like I did ,it would be a blast ,and realease some tension that is all . LATER GATER
Modified by geo at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 09:17:54
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Hi Ocker, Here's one of my favorite Prem Rawat quotes. Yuck! From The Divine Times May/June 1978, Volume 8, Number 3, Page 15.
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I didn't count the words or anything...but I read them. I don't usually really read his satsangs anymore, but after your word count thing I decided to see if there was some other reasonable way to interpet what he was saying. I think I got his point the way he meant it back then and that what I remember is valid. When I said that meditation wasn't as emphasised as surrender and service. It may have to do with just that sort of satsang. He says guru maharaj ji IS the meditation. and a lot of talk about surrender. I was never one to have the great meditation experiences others claimed. Really the best I even got was very relaxed. Sometimes, before we were taught to not press on our eyeballs, I'd enjoy light and all the different things you see when you press on your eyeballs. I used to think I saw little Guru Maharaj Ji's in the middle of the light sometimes...sort of like when you look at the clouds and see stuff. When I first got K the group of premies I hung around had one woman who called herself Swan. She said the angel Gabriel visited her a lot when she meditated. She also said she would leave her body when she meditated and travel all over the place. She even said she came and visited me. You know, kind of like a spirit. I was 13 and I totally believed her. I tried mightily to invite angels and leave MY body but I could never do it. I figured I was just not as "clear" as she was and all. But I to remember trying oh so hard to leave my body. Of course, none of this astral traveling was taught by any Maharaj Ji endorsed Mahatma I know. Again, I bring up Randy Prouty, I told him all about these people ( they were householders) and their astral travels and stuff. He pretty much told me they were full of crap and that was mind and not how it worked. I believed him. I think he as community coordinator tried to talk to them about the astral traveling, Gabriel etc.... Swan called me up and said that she had heard I had been saying very bad things about her. I remember feeling very upset, I was 13, all I had done was told him the truth about what she told me. What I don't remember is how I responded to her confronting me. My guess is I just admitted to telling Randy about it and that if she thought what I was saying was "bad" then why did she tell me ( and her little subset of the cult she had going) all that stuff. Her name was really Brenda, but everyone called her Swan, and among this group of about 10 premies in 1975 she was treated sort of like a Bai Ji. I don't remember her around as much after the "confrontation".... weird weird weird it all was. She also had a fan from the Hare Kriushna temple, Elliot, and a more sickly looking young man you could never see. He was as thin as any anorexic and given to long carrot juice fasts, which literally turned him orange.I do think retrospectively she really had her little subcult going for a while.
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And I'm not quite clear who's post it is, Pat's or Dermot's, but I think it's a great review of that crazy guru and his multi-propagation-phase-delusions. Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 22:57:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Atlanta ''Propaganda Seminar'' re-post, Dermot
Message:
| Propagation Seminar in Atlanta, 2000 Maharaji addresses an audience of about 80 to 100 people in a hotel ballroom. The Pewks are seated around the edges of three sides and Rev Rawat occupies the fourth side surrounded by an array of corporate CEO-type sales-hype toys: a white drawing board, desk with laptop PC, lectern etc. He walks around all through the sermon with a felt-tip pen in his hand acting very dotcommy, with one hand in his pocket and (I kid you not) his tongue often in his cheek. He sticks his tongue in the left cheek pouch between his bottom teeth and bottom lip whenever he tells a joke or says something which he thinks is profound or clever. While doing this fifth technique he is pulling a face which I think is meant to be a kooool California smile or perhaps a Bush-lite smirk. The sermon is about the who, what, how of propagating Knowledge. Examples: ''Should everybody have Knowledge?'' He asks and puts his tongue in his cheek. Then he looks at audience mischievously smirks and says: ''I see some of you nodding and others shaking their heads.'' He then does not answer the question (as he never does answer any questions) but non-sequiturs into another topic. He blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that it is not fair to blame him for this as some people do because he has said from the beginning that it is not a religion. He speaks as if the audience knows of the criticisms being levelled at him. The audience is after all quite exclusive, mostly rich Pewks and industrial strength church ladies. He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too. With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool. The whole act comes off as a spin-control to the share-holders. These Pewks are after all the financial back-bone of the industry in the west. He looks like a huckster trying to impress pyramid scheme suckers that their ''investment'' will pay off big eventually. Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.'' He goes to the drawing board. It already has a wobbly circle drawn on it. He draw a small wedge in the circle with his felt-tip pen and says, ''This is how small a part actual propagation, introducing someone to Knowledge for the first time, is. The rest is keeping them there.'' He then wipes the small wedge out and turns to the audience with a flourish. They applaud and he grins from ear to ear having just demonstrated what a wonderful CEO he really is in that he was able to draw a wedge inside a pre-drawn circle and then erase it. ''So how does this guy do it?'' he asks; ''What is he doing right that make his figures the most impressive? Well, apparently this guy has studied every video in the local library and knows them all so well that he knows just exactly the right video to give to the right person to introduce them to Maharaji. That is the way to propagate Knowledge.'' Enough already. I have simply written what I saw not what I was thinking when I saw it. Let it speak for itself. He is truly an embarassment to civilized, intelligent people. It is hard to believe that people like John Horton were in the audience. Well, actually maybe not. I've known plenty of other dumb doctors in my 30 years in that business. When it is over you come away not having learned anything. He has not answered any specific questions. He has told them that everybody should have Knowledge but that not everybody will be interested. He has said that they should tell people about Knowledge but that they should not talk about it. He has basically again said nothing as usual - hot air. But the Pewks got the vibe I guess and that got them high and they felt so inspired and then they just wanted to tell everybody the good news when they got home but of course no one really wanted to here about a greedy selfish guru and they couldn't talk about it anyway so it's back to straightening out white table cloths at the video event held every week for the one aspirant who does not always show up. |
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Here's the link to the archived thread:
Related link: 2001 Ex Discussion re: Atlanta, etc.
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 11:43:57
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But what does 'Pewk' mean or is it just 'Pwk' spelt that way to rhyme with 'puke'?
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It is a good post. Yup. "Pewk" is a take-off of PWK.
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