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This is a puzzle to me too 13,
"But I guess he believes in 'Knowledge'"
That's not too bad, in the sense that they are basically given physiological functions anyway.
But the "knowledge" is only the act of bringing this to our attention, and this is of questionable value, the person might be better off breathing, hearing, seeing, tasting naturally; normally.
If there is a yogic value to the practice of these in freedom,( and I have little of this, since most of the time I practiced them in captivity, but) I would hazard a guess that they compliment yoga quite appropriately. Even so why does he insist on being the only purveyor of it?
His father set up on his own, without agya, anyone therefore could. Why should he, the son feel that suddenly on his father's death that converts to all the perfect masters down through all the ages.
It rolled off the tongues of all he grew up among. Could he believe it? I suppose, he has been told it often enough, perhaps it is enough to be that for them, the devotees, and not the whole world, but then why all the only one and only Perfect Master stuff.
Is it as if, what lives, what moves within him is the ego of the organisation itself? As if he is the incarnation, deliberately programmed into his mind by family, mahatmas and servants, teachers and premies: of the divine light mission?
Is he programmed to think only in terms of his work's survival? I suppose he must believe that he can make people experience this knowledge better, than the other paths that teach it. But why?
I would have been better off to have come across it in a book, forgotten it for 30 years and then, in my garden or on a mountain trail, taken a breath and remembered just for a few seconds, than to have had my life torn apart not just once, but many times, until I can't think about meditating anymore and breathe because I have no choice, sorry not to be able to associate it purely with the sky or the bird or the rain or the morning dew. But always behind the breath there is his lurking face, leering: "I gave it to you!".
I trudge on begrudgingly admitting that it has a remote connection to all that which once so distressed my dear parents, when I told them I was his follower.
And, in their last days, I was proud to remind and reassure them I had discarded..
What would clear it? Can he dehypnotise us? Can we do that ourselves?
What would do it for me is to see him publicly denounced and have to admit his fraudulence and give a public apology on world news channels to all whose lives he has usurped. I can't help feeling that the world is not so dumb that this doesn't fit some definition of a crime. Did we enter into it of our own freewill? Did minors?
He could save a lot of humiliation by stepping down voluntarily. He could buy a nice house somewhere, and still live out his life with whatever family want to join him. But what is the point for him? Where's the power, the control, the constant reassurance of his being the god man? I hope not too many of my old friends get hurt when the day comes that his fragile "bridge of grace" collapses.
Lp
Modified by LP at Sun, Jul 09, 2006, 13:34:28
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I think it's impossible to answer that, & for myself I gave up speculating years ago, although I'm always interested to hear what others think.
The only conclusion I ever came to is that he must have a hide like a rhinocerous to be able to continue his charade in public, sort of public anyway. I'm more interested in the relationship he has with his court (inner circle) because the potentiality for it to come apart in an act of extreme violence is certainly there.
As long as they keep it to themselves, that's the main thing.
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Hi 13, I don't think Rawat would be able to stand reading much of EPO or this forum because he's such a narcissist. I'd guess when he peeks in, those are the times he's a tyrannt to live with. Anybody???  I don't think any of us will ever know that he believes and thinks about himself, because I don't think he even knows. If he's thinking about it,well then he's not drinking enough about it. Draw your own conclusions. He has wanted to retire for a while now. There was a hint of that sentiment in a 1999 satsang of his which I heard live via satellite that summer. I'm posting another one of my older posts (how vain!) because my memory was better then about the Rawat-talk, plus I'm lazy. Note the bolded sentence. That comment got my attention when I was listening to it because it's basically Rawat saying he's going into retirement at what?? age 42? Like he ever worked? It's interesting that he was using those words: "Phase I" "Phase II." Isn't that kind of talk so strange when contrasted to the real world? Yikes. Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: How to Listen to Satsang...
Message:
| Hi Joe, I remember when I was an aspirant back in '75, I was told that ''it'' meaning satsang was not about the words, but about the communication between the satsang giver and receiver. ''Don't worry if you don't understand something that's said, the understanding will come to your heart, this is not like regular communication, but from soul to soul.'' Well, I ate that one up obviously because I received k and joined the ashram. This was a rationalization for all those muddled and nonsensical words from not only Maharaji but any premie who stood up to speak. It was an explanation that satsang, company of truth, was from one heart to the other, and the words were virtually meaningless. Juju. I remember folks would say stuff like ''Oh that person's so clear.'' Supposedly, the more one did meditation and service, the more clear a premie became. Pure BS. Later, in 1997, when I tried to go back and revisit my connection to m, so many changes had taken place and no one was allowed to speak about anything. I thought (very naively), that as a premie who had been around during the devotional years and had returned, that some kind of explantion of all the changes would be given to me, either by a community coordinator or an instructor, i.e., why premies don't give satsang anymore, etc. But noooo. All I was told was to listen to Maharaji's videos/tapes and all the answers would come to me. I was especially given dirty looks when I mentioned I had been around M during the Deca years. I couldn't figure that out. Secrecy and juju again. Well, no answers came, and here I am. Revelations did come, but not exactly what Maharaji would have wanted me to discover. One drip came before I read EPO because of all the secrecy, unreasonable demands for money, and the lack of care for old time premies returning. Part of that drop included the elitism within the cult such as the apparent special attention given to big donors. The second drip was my trip to Montreal to see him for the first time in 16 years. I felt absolutely nothing. I looked around after the program and many premies were in a trancelike state with that glazed over look in their eyes. I didn't have it. I didn't feel it. Nada. Nothing. No connection whatsoever! There was chaos in the Divine Sales area though, pushing, shoving, and more dirty looks. Glad I never paid for that program LOL! The final drip was that horrendous ''satsang'' which I heard live over a satellite feed where m tore into premies about not being grateful enough to him for everything he has done, i.e., he saved our lives. Actually, that was the first time I heard him mention Phase II (now called the 'it's time for me phase.' He proclaimed that he had fulfilled Shri Maharaji's agya by bringing k to the world (yeah) and that Phase II would inlude training sessions for premies who wanted to be part of the team for propagation (sure). Yet he was vague about it and didn't get into details, but they would be forthcoming. He cursed a lot (it was live and unedited) and was in such a pissy mood I just left after the feed very very angry at him. My first thought driving home was ''how dare he talk to me like that!'' I also thought, ''when has he shown premies gratitude for everything sacrificed for HIM?'' That video was edited. I think because I had worked in the world, especially my employment as a Personel Director for a large law firm, without any contact with m or premies for 16 years, that I had grown older and wiser...even wiser than I ever thought him to be. Lawyering is so much about words and clear writing. I learned very much from working for and with attorneys, so I was more tuned into the words than some magic I was supposed retrieve from watching m on tv. What is this bullshit I asked myself? Even my husband (poor guy) who I had earlier insisted watch videos fell asleep during them at home. I took him to an intro program. Nothing. He would comment about how simplistic m was said stuff like ''Gee, Cynthia, I always knew a sunset is beautiful, a rose smells wonderful, what is this guy trying to sell?'' I'm grateful that once I got to EPO my doubts were confirmed and validated. I'm especially grateful I never got my husband initiated into the cult. Cynthia |
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Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Jul 09, 2006, 12:47:46
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My vote would be that he still thinks he is the Lord. He has been told he is since he was two and a half, he has been adored and worshipped as such since then, and that must addle anyone's brain. The drinking and everything else that goes with it is explained away as some Lordly lila. I know that many of those around him still think he is the Lord.And the more adversity and criticism he faces, the more convinced he and they probably are - hey, that is what *always* happens when the Lord manifests, right? The Lord always has to put up with a whole bunch of negativity. Why isn't the world flocking to him? Well, we just aren't ready. But I don't really care that much, one way or another. As Pat says, the more interesting thing is what his inner circle and committed premies think, rather than what he thinks. And he certainly is the Lord for them in private, still. Which is a little scary. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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"The more adversity and criticism he faces, the more convinced he and they probably are - hey, that is what 'always' happens when the Lord manifests, right? The Lord always has to put up with a whole bunch of negativity. Why isn't the world flocking to him? Well, we just aren't ready." Right on Mike! It's spelled out right here in Guru Maharaj Ji 's signed preface to the Divine Light Mission magazine 'And It Is Divine,' published for approximately 10 years in the 70's and early 80's. Scary indeed, particularly in light of the recent ludicrous revisionism. Dear Reader,
By the grace of Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And It Is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world, but also a way out for all humanity.
There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and spread the True Knowledge. But history is a pendulum which is always in swing. There have been so many scriptures, but still people have never been able to understand Him.
Divine Light Mission wants to bring world peace by sharing the Knowledge which is within us by the grace of Almighty Lord. In this magazine, we hope to give information about the peace which lives within us, which Guru Maharaj Ji reveals. 
| Sant Ji Maharaj
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Modified by Steve at Sun, Jul 09, 2006, 18:03:25
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Yes, I have to agree that this question is near impossible to answer. Perhaps a more approachable question would be How does he see himself gaining advantage ? In Rawat's case I think the answer to that question would contain much that would explain how he sees himself. The point being that who he thinks he is depends entirely on the circumstances of the moment, with the one constant that he sees himself at the centre and as deserving of any wishfulfilment that is obtainable. Not very pretty but I think it's accurate. Nik
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Having no information on the inner man which to evaluate I fall back on his actions. The things that spring to my mind are his marriage and family break-up, his letting Mishler do what Bob thought was right, his super-devotional period, the Boeing 707 insanity, the destruction of the 70's publications, the closing of the ashrams and public satsang, the various incarnations of initiators/instructors/part timers, the training sessions, the Passages lies, the inconsistent public messages about his divinity/normalcy, the short term publication of his satguru lineage credentials, his gluttony and obesity, his klutzy embarassing public singing and dancing, the hopeless mismanagement of Amaroo, the banalities and trivialities of his 'satsangs', the pathetic attempts to gain 'credibility' by hiring halls at universities.
As an aside, I've only seen a tiny fraction of his satsangs since 1980 but he seems to mention pain-killers an awful lot and how 'Knowledge isn't Advil' for example. (I had no idea what Advil was) Did any of you 30 year premies notice this?
I know of only a very few of the events of his life but the picture is of a person who doesn't have a consistent, sensible, well-thought, coherent understanding of himself and his life.
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Hi Ocker, Well done! You made many Great points with your post! Speaking about the past, in this attachment Prem Rawat has the Crown & outfit on, even showing some skin! How Cult like is this ungodly crap? ... "Some cried, some laughed, and others fainted at this miracle of Maharaj Ji." I don't have the date, ect. for this one right now but trust me ~ it's authentic. Great thread everyone! ...Hilltop
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Thanks Hilltop. I forget just how bizarre it was. This gushing report captures it nicely, and suggest to me that Mike's might be the most accurate guess of how Rawat thinks of himself. If you didn't think you were the Lord, how could you do such things as dress up in that outfit, and allow such things to be written? What a strange Lord though!
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Hi 13, Yes... it was Bizarre and Strange too. I got caught by it! And it's sad & sick. Prem Rawat... what a scam artist.
Modified by Hilltop at Mon, Jul 10, 2006, 00:40:27
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What is that? I would love to see some of the NOT RAWAT satsangs and stuff that was in some of those newsletters
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Poof!
warning do not over inflate
(Yesterday's APoD)
The krishna beachball has burst the building
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 10, 2006, 13:15:15
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You provided a picture ~ that I want to put on my alter! Thank You LP for being so Great. I'm in Love....Hilltop
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Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 13:17:30
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Yes I copied and saved this from somewhere (probably one of your posts) recently. I didn't know whether to weep, cry or faint myself when I read it.
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I think that's a good point you make, Ocker. We can only judge who Maharaji thinks he is by how he presents himself. There's a severe lack of consistency there. I was a "fringe" premie who was taught by other premies that he was the Lord, although I had never heard Maharaji say that himself. But I had been hearing a lot about the "perfect master" and how he always shows up when true religion is in decline. I'd also heard that the perfect master was essentially God in human form, and while I can't recall hearing Maharaji saying that, there was obviously an acceptance on his part of the devotion from people who felt that, not least of all his mahatmas who unabashedly proclaimed the divinity of the perfect master. But they could always be viewed as being over exhuberant and speaking for themselves and what they believed, not necessarilly what M thought of himself. Then, all of a sudden, at a program in New York, I hear Maharaji state unequivocally that he's not God. This was in the mid or late 80s. That sort of settled it for me that Maharaji never thought of himself as God, even if he accepted the devotion and accolades of those who did. So, what kind of game was Maharaji playing all those years never claiming nor disagreeing that he was God? I was actually glad when he said, finally, that he wasn't God. I felt he was sticking it to all those weird premies who thought he was, because I myself was never sure if he was or wasn't, and the ones who were sure he was I found somewhat disarming in their unabashed devotion. Now, I don't know exactly how a Lord Of The Universe is supposed to act, myself. I imagine any damned way he pleases. Who's going to tell him otherwise? But you'd hope at least that he'd make it clear if he was the Lord or not. The problem is that Maharaji neither confirmed nor denied his divinity for so many years until ultimately he denied it and played dumb as to why anybody would think he was. And, of course later, those of us on the fringe were exposed to the seemingly endless quotes where Maharaji did proclaim his divinity, even if some pathetic interpretations of those proclamations are currently in circulation by his pathetic devotees. But maybe Maharaji was just caught up in the moment when he made those proclamations, giving the premies what they wanted. But why suddenly drop all that? What happenned that pushed Maharaji away from all the "Hindu trappings" which he came to the west with? He certainly must have bought into it before he came to the west. How could he otherwise? It was part to the tradition he came from. I can only conclude one thing. Maharaji must think that it's all bullshit. He knows he's not God, and here in the west he doesn't have to play him. He can achieve his purposes without all the "Hindu trappings". Time to change his act, so to speak. No more God. He knows he's not him, and oh, what a relief it is to no longer have to play him. But, and there's always a but, isn't there?, he is still playing the perfect master in India. Nothing's changed. So, what's that about? Maybe in India they could never accept him as a simple, meditation teacher, so he doesn't even try to portray himself as that. At this point it's all just speculation why Maharaji now wears 2 hats instead of one. Personally, I think he knows the God trip is bullshit. Otherwise there would have been no reason for him to drop the act when he was able.
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Hi Jerry,
Well we're not together all the way. I'm of the opinion (now after decades that we have more evidence) that he always thought he was God and quite understandably so as he was taught he was and he claims even to have had an eerie experience at his father's death.
Once he got to the West he was soon taught that he'd be better off not saying that in public (he did it to begin with) though in private he acted like it and spoke to premies in "satsang" as if he was. And by the very early 1980's with the dancing and the outrageous satsangs he wasn't keeping it well hidden, wa he? But then with Jonestown and "Reverend Moon" and Mrs L. Ron Hubbard ending up in gaol and propagation wasn't exactly going gangbusters the whole "I am God Dancing" period stopped abruptly.
The 80's were very quite but even though Rejoice starts a whole new public story (sort of back to Bob Mishler's 1975 ideas) the reality remains the same as I saw when Rawat came to my local community. Though I had bailed on Knowledge we had a house full of premies for that "event" and nothing had changed in the worship situation.
Since then it's gone on in much the same way. He wears 2 hats cause he's got to be God else the premies won't adore him and he doesn't want to appear God in public cause that will attract bad publicity and the little fat guy (it's a damn shame Rodney Dangerfield is dead cause he could have played a brilliant Rawat if they cut him off at the knees) wants some respect. Hell, imagine being the LOTU but you know if you go to the local mall, people will snigger at you both in front of and behind your back.
But as he does seem so inconsistent in his decisions and really bad at being an internationally renowned teacher of inner peace I don't think he necessarily thinks too deeply about his situation or it would probably drive him to drink.
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If Maharaji really thought he was God, he would have no need, nor desire, to act otherwise. I've always thought it was ballsy of Mishler to tell Maharaji to tone it down or else people are going to think we're a cult. It makes you think who did Mishler think he was! Didn't HE think M was God?? If not, why not? And, again, where did he get the balls to even approach M on such an issue unless there was an understanding between him and Maharaji that M wasn't God? It makes you think. If a man truly believed he was God, why would he stop acting the part? That doesn't make sense. Maharaji must only have been playing the part so long as it was convenient to, but since he stopped when it no longer was he could never have really believed it to begin with. Maybe early in his career he believed it, but I'm certain that somewhere along the line he realized the whole God thing was bullshit.
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I can see the point here, Jerry, and if I were to hazard a guess at the time I 'd say it was probably close to the time of post puberty and teen age when he started experimenting with drinking. Also around the time of the pie fiasco.
But it had rewarded him so. He knew all the words, what to wear. Or, did he?
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He might think he was God but because of his infinite compassion he wouldn't do those things he talked about in the late 70's like appearing in the sky and shouting to everyone in the world that they must take Knowledge or else. I think the Christians talk about God allowing humans "free-will".
Mishler might have thought that although Rawat was God it was still OK to advise him.
I think you're assuming that he actually has stopped playing the part but I thought it was well understood that he only stopped playing the part in public.
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If Maharaji thought he was God, why is he saying he's not? Out of his compassion? That's a pretty bizzarre assumption, that Maharaji thinks it would be too much for us to bear if he were to proclaim who he really thinks he is. I don't think Mishler thought Maharaji was God, and I think he made that clear in his interview after he left him. I don't know that it's well understood that he's still playing God in private. Who's come forward from his inner circle and said that he is? It would be bizzarre if that's the case. How could anybody countenance such a public facade if they believed he was God and he confided to them in private that yes, he was, but he was being kind enough to be hush hush about it in public. That's absolutely fecking crazy, Ock.
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Is it possible that he is somehow straddling two canoes?
And in the process expecting his followers to do the same?
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 09:10:56
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That is a hilarious image of Maharaji straddling 2 canoes, LP. Whoops, don't fall. lol. Judging from what premies who appear on this forum say, and from M's apologists at elan vital, he's just wearing one hat, and paddling one canoe, and always has been. It's just the "hindu baggage" and misconceptions of his earlier followers that led people to believe that M is God. So they say. How, under those circumstances could he still be acting the part of God or giving any of his inner circle the impression he is if it's by his instructions that they're rewriting his history?
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Maybe he hides his best canoe, using his every day one and then when the time is right, he swaps canoes, reverses his hat, taking all his devotees out on another alter ego ride of a lifetime.
The knowledge is still his ace card, his only claim to be able to give it an extra boost of power or validity hinges on his divinity claim, without this, what is holding it together?
Perhaps he cannot decide.
I wonder whether he might be taking all his close followers into this dual perception of reality.
Presumably a man cannot be God whenever he wants, but
God could be a man whenever he wants to be.
But maharaji depends not on being that, but on people believing it in secret, so perhaps, in his mind he feels he can switch.
I doubt if he knows himself anymore.
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 16:12:10
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m could wear a different hat every day and tell premies it's the same one - they'd believe him. He could wear the same hat every day and tell them he owns thousands of identical hats - they'd believe him. 'Cause they're smarter than us. That's why they're premies.
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Keep 'em coming, LP. Before we're done he'll be the captain of the Titanic. Haha! Maybe not such a bad analogy, eh? But with the amount of premies he has left maybe all he needs is a canoe. Or his hat! Haha!
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The terrifying thing for me to recall is the moment when it dawned on me that my saviour on the stage was actually, in his own view, doing a job. It was some satsang example of his from way back, when he said to the effect that: "if I didn't get out and do my thing (gesturing vaguely to hall and stage around him) my wife and children would go hungry". I think part of my horror at this possibillity was also something to do with the thought of having to "go out and get a job" myself, an option I devoutly resisted as a premie! I was talking to a friend last week who is a professional drama therapist of long experience. That is a real face-to-face, psyche to psyche, "people" sort of occupation. I don't envy her, but I can see the glamour of what she does, and the intensity of the thrill of doing it.I have worked with her in the past but not any more. We both agree on the absolute need for vast amounts of supervision for the therapist who does a soul to soul job like that. Who supervises Prem Rawat in detail,in his ministerings to his flock? If the answer is "no one" which I suspect it is, then I imagine by now his self image must be absolutely monsterous; a kind of voracious, all-expecting, monomaniac Daddy beast! Such roles in my own experience are invisible at the time, maybe on rare occasions justified after the event as necessary, but then always put back in the box as part of life's essential armoury until next time. I think they call it "professional relationships". Under the subjection to that monster, Rawat always comes up with the real goods (he believes). He is a professional trailblazer. Rawat sees himself as an old pro, a skillful survivor a benign opportunist bluffer who is just too spiritual for the system. He is living proof that "Knowledge" gets a guy through and that the Lord looks after his lads. His concept of "significant other" at any moment, is whichever person in front of him supports this narrative. I see a lot of this kind of heroism around, particularly among the maturing crop of New Age "healers" I meet in passing. They have renounced practically everything about themselves in order to play the "good listener" game. There seem to be a lot of selfmade "saviours of mankind" on the market who are doing nothing more than maintaining a kamikaze "witholding" stance. They seem to want to listen the world into submission! Obviously Rawat aint no listner, but he does a great line in withholding. Maybe its the times. It must seem perfectly reasonable for many a liberal, educated, peaceful, well-fed idealist born since 1950, to feel they can dream up and enact any role they like for themselves in a comfortable post modern world. (World here means euro-america sort of thing). So Prem really is Krishna,The Lord of the Universe goddamit. Just as George Bush is any for-real archetypical Cowboy and the Prime minister of Japan is actually a devoted Elvis impersonater.. No problem there. Love Bryn (who?)
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During the January 2005 program at the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles there was an "Expressions" event. For those of you who don't know what this is it is a session where individual members of the audience get to speak with Maharaji. One of the rules for these sessions is that no questions are permitted. During this expressions event a man stood up in the balcony and spoke for some time very articulately about the fact that he was terminally ill and grateful for all Maharaji had done for him. When he finished speaking Maharaji started to speak but couldn't say much before breaking up into tears. He finished speaking saying basically that that was the nicest thing anyone had ever said to him. This exchange was later put into a video that was shown at Amaroo in September 2005. To me this indicates that Maharaji certainly believes in what he is doing and that he is a master. Either this or the the whole thing is a setup including what the premie said. If it was the latter perhaps Maharaji should have gotten the Academy Award which could have been given to him on the spot since he was already on stage at the Shrine Auditorium where these awards have been given out many times. Kabir
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Which leaves us with the question:
Just because he believes it, does it make a difference?
Does it place the possibility one inch closer to being likely?
Does it bear down upon our beliefs, or lack thereof.
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 10, 2006, 13:45:39
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No, I don't think it makes a difference. It is no more likely that Rawat is the Lord, whether he believes it or not. For me, it is just speculation, another attempt at trying to understand someone else's perspective. Something I probably didn't do enough of back in the old days.
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No, of course not.
And yet, 30 yrs ago it seemed to be a significant feature in the persuasion. I can still feel a sort of twinge inside, akin to guilt, though not that.
I guess it's realizing how we look to him if really believes that, and the realization that he is seriously "in illusion" and the memory of the young maharaji, in a way, innocently caught in an entrapment, growing inexorably more complicated.
And the realization that I regard it a serious duty to awaken him from his dream, or; if his illusion is terminal; to alert the populace, of this lack of substance in his mission, beyond his being just another member of the human race, and not a good example at that; to any of us.
Lp
Modified by LP at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 04:06:05
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One of the things I find about this Forum is that when people post, they post as if Rawat is one thing: he is evil or he is the Lord. This polarisation of opinion is understandable because Rawat is a very polarising person to that tiny minority who have done anything but dismiss him with a laugh or a moue of disgust which is what the majority of people have done.
I think we all understand that Rawat is a normal person with all the complexities that people have. He is both extremely arrogant (and ignorant) in front of his followers and fearful and obsessed with security. He gets blissed out when he sings in public even though it is possibly the most awful singing ever heard. He certainly used to get shy and embarassed when he first started dancing in public and that shows he's not a complete idiot and I'm sure he loves his kids as we all do.
Of course he was affected when he received that touching story from a dying premie and I'm sure the people in charge made sure the premie got a chance to speak as they knew there probably wouldn't be a dry eye in the house. And the thanks, misguided and stupid though they were, would have brought tears to my eyes as well. It has no bearing on what Rawat thinks about himself because this stuff really does come from deep within inside.
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As I see it, tears under these circumstances are more likely to be proof of insincerity than the opposite. Sheesh! How gullible can we be.The ability to weep confirms nothing about the issue being cried over or the bona fides of the person doing the crying. It is in the same category as hiccupping, or sneezing, choking or saying "erm" when speaking in public. With the major exception of personal bereavement, "Big Tears" in public is very suspicious if you ask me. Yours in tears of ecstasy BD
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Bryn, Absolutely. That's exactly what I was thinking. Plus, did he go on to talk about the premie or did he talk about "that's the nicest thing anyone ever said to "me, me, me." Narcissists cry really easily. My father could cry at the drop of a feather. It's all about them. It's an act.
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 05:32:01
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Narcissists cry really easily. My father could cry at the drop of a feather. It's all about them. It's an act.
Hi Cynthia
I very much agree that narcissists cry easily, but I'm not sure it's an act that could be said to be false. I think they really feel deeply that it should be-all-about-them. They just can't work out why others don't agree and suffer a lot of pain due to that. My guess would be that he was very relieved when someone showed so much gratitude, because that fitted in with his map of how-things-are. So I would say it's more due to a faulty perspective. Narcissists can't adjust to the fact that they might be only as good as the next person. With a history like his, if he wasn't born a narcissist, I imagine it would be very hard not to become one!!
Also, I think that meditation can have huge benefits, and so can being reminded about it. But the whole Rawat trip is a complex multi dimensional thing and as with all cults, getting involved seems to have arguably more problems than pleasures.
Alice
Modified by alice at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 08:01:11
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Hello Alice, Nice to see you posting here. Because I was MPD/DID and so talented at dissociating and depersonalization, meditation was the worse thing I could ever have been doing. It helped in some ways, but made me feel much too spacey and I ended up putting off the years of therapy I so badly needed. Therapy was another taboo in the cult back in the 70s. I'm not a big advocate of meditation for anyone who has a history of child abuse, because generally speaking, such people may tend to depersonalize/dissociate. I've never tried any other kind of meditation, but I've tweaked this old Knowledge saw to my own liking and dip my toes in from time to time. I find that the nectar technique helps me to concentrate on a task that requires accuracy. It's good for avoiding tears while peeling onions, the old wives say. Unlike others here, I never tasted snot while doing the nectar tech. Breath technique? When I'm anxious and having racing thoughts I breath deeply like other normal human beings do. And, of course, I always recommend that any newly exiting premie stop the Knowledge meditation altogether, at least for a while. The cult awareness experts and therapists also discourage the practice during exiting. Would you be willing to discuss the techniques of Knowledge as revealed to you in the new millennium? I ask because I've been told by premies that I'm not informed enough to be able to talk about them or describe them (which is bs). Bests, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 15:34:16
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Cynthia and Alice, thank you both, for this part of the thread. these posts and links have got me thinking. I've read them several times, a little worried.
I worked very hard at meditation, and that was on top of being able to slip into it easily anyway. Once it was taught to be the solution to everything, and maharaji was showing signs of being just another human being, when meditation became linked to shutting down the mind instead of exploring it, a different pressure was put on the subject. I began to get these strange headaches.
I have suffered something that I have never understood so well, until now that your posts have shed more light upon.
I experienced dissociation and depersonalization as a young child, due to trauma, and had regular recurrences under stress.
I found it easy to slip into psychedelic "other" states, and later trained myself to be always doing meditation, while being relieved of so many of the normal responsibilities of daily life, in the ashrams.
I am still, I believe, experiencing this, and find great difficulty relating to my physical reality sometimes, my home, my connections to society. I am like a hermit. There is a feeling that my mind has been programmed to not believe what I see before my eyes is actually real or significant. Nor do I feel empowered to do things, normal things like keeping my home functional... It all seems somehow not real, like a dream, the objects become obstacles without meaning. Useful, non useful, all mixed up.
It takes considerable willpower to make myself at least deal with the essentials.
I never realised it was so severe until I was divorced. Then I realised how many things a woman does around the house that I hardly saw, and that I was hopeless at. I thought I would get the hang of it after a few years. It's not the physical work, I've done that sort of work for other people, It's because it is my own life stuff. I go into a sort of depersonalised, or dissociated state, (still wrestling with understanding the terms in my own sphere of experience).
I very quickly get physical symptoms too, (not all at once): heart beating, panting, clumsiness, anxiety, acute neck or head pains, confusion. I am lucky if attempts at sorting or tidying don't simply make the chaos worse, because I have to abandon the job halfway through and switch off my mind. In the process I seem to have no choice but to meditate, while resting my neck.
I have approached several avenues of research, and have been considered to be organisationally dyslexic with an attention deficit/hyperactivity characteristic, by psychologists at college and doctors. Everything else has been explained as resulting from stress and anxiety because of above.
But I think what your posts describe sounds more like it. My perception of reality has changed, many of the things you have offered for reading above seem to apply, quite accurately. I seem to have trained my body to be always trying to meditate, and now I don't know how to switch it off. Sometimes my body, by itself makes unconscious, automatic attempts to meditate, when stressed, as if trying to relax or let go or transcend the situation, who knows?..
Trying to reject maharaji and everything associated with him puts me into a difficult situation as far as my breath, or even my own tongue position. I have conflicted feelings towards my own physiological processes. And quite possibly my 'self' itself.
I am keen to know what avenues exist now for further understanding or if possibilities exist for correcting or readjusting these anomalies?
Thankyou for your clear and helpful pieces.
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 08:36:32
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I am keen to know what avenues exist now for
further understanding or if possibilities exist for correcting or
readjusting these anomalies?
I don't know Lp, but www.refocus.org seems to have lots of info and stuff about recovery & conventions etc. I copied this piece below from the 'Boundaries' section. Nothing personal, I just found it interesting because I suppose if we have lived most of our lives focusing on attaining a 'realized self' etc, we naturally relate to others in a rather direct way.
Alice
'Having lost a basic sense of personhood
or individuality makes it quite incredible that anyone ever leaves a cultic
group. I have the utmost respect for anyone who has accomplished this! It is,
in my mind, a tribute to the human spirit, that even a small piece of whom a
person is or was pushes through. It is often a seemingly insurmountable task to
rediscover oneself or rebuild oneself, yet we do it. Establishing boundaries is
a large part of that process. As we move back into society, into the real world,
one of the things that is quite overwhelming is just how much of it there is!
Where we didn’t have boundaries between us in the group, there was often a very
firm boundary between the group and the outside world. And now there is none,
nor do we have a very strong sense of self.
So, how does a person begin to have a
separate sense of him or herself again? One tool I have found very useful is
from Michael Langone, who draws
several concentric circles, like a target. On the very outside of the circles
are people who you don’t know, you may never, know, and you may not want to ever
know. They have no need to know about you, nor do you need to know them. Then,
in the outside circle might be people that you recognize, that you may get to
know by name, like store clerks, mechanics, waiters, but they are distant
acquaintances. You don’t know much more than their name and they know about that
much about you. Then, the next circle might include another level of
acquaintances, like coworkers, neighbors. The next circle might move into people
you would call friends. They might be family members, people you spend time with
at work and have gotten to know, people you like and spend recreational time
with. Then there might be a small circle of close friends. This might be just a
handful of people in a lifetime. It might be family, spouses. Family might not
be in the close circles, either! Then, in the middle is you. No one else. There
are things the others don’t know and may never know. There are things that you
will only share with those in the inner circle if they prove worthy. There is a
difference between private and secret also – private being things in your heart
that need very special care, and secrets being things held in fear and shame.
Hopefully, in time, the inner circle where you stand will only hold private
things. Each of the circles is a boundary. And every other person has a similar
set of circles. How you begin to find out who will be in which circle is like a
dance, going back and forth slowly, seeing who will respect the boundary and who
will not. You also get to demonstrate your trustworthiness by honoring the other
person’s boundaries. As ex-cult members, we can tend to dump our whole life at
someone’s feet without having established trust and respect first, as we build a
relationship through the levels of a person’s boundaries. This way of
considering boundaries applies to many situations of abuse, where boundaries
have been broken'.
Modified by alice at Thu, Jul 13, 2006, 06:26:57
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Hello, I was just browsing these forums to see if anyone else had experience the negative effects of meditation; apparently someone has! I know this is a really late reply, but I would be very curious to know if you have found any methodology that could reduce the negative effects of meditation on the mind over the months. I understand that you've been meditating for a while now...I have only recently attempted meditation a few times, but now I find that I, uncontrollably, revert back into a state of general apathy, like I don't care what's going on around me. If I don't do anything or "go with the flow", I eventually feel very sleepy and my mind just blanks out.
Suffice to say that I don't feel like my normal self anymore, which I'm trying to regain a sense of. I am trying to periodically wake myself up, or willfully concentrate more, but while I can manage to keep away from temporarily lapsing into my indifferent state of mind, it catches up with me eventually, and I can't fight it forever like this.
Have you become aware of any permanent solutions, or techniques? I read the response to your query, but the website seems to offer help that is more targeted towards cults that have different psychological affects...
By the way, I suppose the reason I'm having these negative effects is partially due to some form of ADHD, as I experience the symptoms of having moments of hyperfocus followed by the inability to think...among other things.
Any help would be highly appreciated! It's rare to find people who have problems in this area, so I'm glad I found this forum.
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Would you be willing to discuss the techniques of Knowledge as revealed to you in the new millennium? I ask because I've been told by premies that I'm not informed enough to be able to talk about them or describe them (which is bs).
Yes, sure. Spent years, 1991 - 2000 just listening, it was the stage where people had to put their hand up and ask M for knowledge from the front of the audience at a large event. There were so many aspirants, it was only a few who ever got the chance to ask and then be cross-questioned by Rawat. By 2000 or so, it had changed to being Charanand or the Indian lady close to M, you had to ask. This was at small aspirant-only events held locally. I summoned up the desire to get knowledge, and remember having to write down on paper the reasons why I felt it appropriate to ask. I think I listed all the events I'd been to and wrote some blah blah that I had by then learnt to sound appropriate. I think Charanand spoke first about knowledge and then in the break we had to write our letter. After the break we went back into the room where Charanand read the letter whilst standing on the stage, and asked us a few simple questions, mostly to ascertain whether we had been listening for long enough, it seemed to me.
I was given the ok to get K, and went to a big event to receive it. It was one of the most horrible days of my life, as were many of the events I've been too. I always seemed to end up distraught, crying, having panic attacks at events, but always thought it was just 'me' not understanding what it was all about - because I never got the devotion/bliss thing. I started reading here and making logical connections - quick aren't I!!! My response may have a lot to do with my upbringing which was from within an Indian cult - all the same sort of crap.
We were kept in the foyer of the building for about 3 hrs, a crazy amount of time. I remember trying to get to a window just to get some light, or a view, but was prevented from leaving the area by a prem - god I loved those prems... assholes. We had been told not too get over excited and talk too much before getting K, so everyone turned into zombies and just sat there for 3 hrs, like morons. I wanted to leave, always did really, but didn't want to regret not finally getting something that might be good, that my husband was part of. We went into the hall, lots of big comfy chairs, and did some more waiting. I read my book - a novel or something - someone came over to check it out and decided it was ok for me to read. M came on stage and told us the four techniques, then I'm not sure, perhaps we then watched a video of each technique and then practiced each one, although I also have a memory of him being on stage practising with us. Then we went for lunch, I walked into the foyer where lunches were put out for us, the stillness in the group of aspirants was breathtaking in the most vile of ways. I felt very disturbed by the quality of that stillness - I am passionate about stillness in many ways and had been to retreats and meditating for many years - this was a different kind of stillness, more like a mind blowing numbness, it felt profoundly negative to me, so I went home, I just didn't want to be part of it. We were due to return for a full practice after lunch.
[[post edited here by admin]]
Sadly Rawat never seemed remotely attractive to me, although there are many aspects about surrender and oneness & clarity that I love, and my understanding of grace I suppose. But only from time to time, not as a life mission. I now practice the first and second techniques when I feel like it, for about 5 - 10 mins at a time. Any longer and I begin to feel like I'm on a mission!
Alice
Modified by Mike Finch-Admin at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 03:06:05
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Should they want to. When you surmise he was very relieved someone showed so much gratitude, I'm not so sure, though I agree his world map requires such corroboration he was at the time surrounded by his followers, so getting it anyway.
I think the term is a mawkish sentimentality. The Victorians in general were supposed to have suffered from it along with gout and syphilis.
Chocolate box art. For a while there, as people sought reprieve from such facile sentimentality, should an artist paint a pretty picture, they'd be given a hard time.
I guess it's not so surprising it came down to a dead cow being strung up at the Tate for an art exhibition.
My father fits the definition of narcissist too. I stopped being amazed at his ability to shift from sentimental to full threat at the flick of an eye.
Generally speaking when a person is in tears those around consider that person to be disarmed. So for those around a narcissist, that sentimentality bears false witness, the threat remains, those tears are fake.
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Lesley, My father fits the definition of narcissist too. I stopped being amazed at his ability to shift from sentimental to full threat at the flick of an eye The second is a great sentence. Describes it to a T. Those narcissists are talented actors and know how to make a life into a carnival ride for everyone around them at the bat of an eye with a tear. They cry for themselves only. I'm convinced of that. Masters of manipulation. Your posts are some of my favorites here... Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 16:08:01
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I guess we've understood a lot of the same things.
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I think the term is a mawkish sentimentality. The Victorians in
general were supposed to have suffered from it along with gout and
syphilis.
LOL. Ok that whole entry was very persuasive and brilliantly argued imo  It shifts my perspective somewhat, from the binaries of acting v.s genuine (still think that mawkish sentimentality feels genuine for certain people, although that does not mean that everyone else should be happy about it, on the contrary) to the notion of the act as something that is situated in terrain that is facile. So yes I agree entirely that those that practice facile sentimentality are twats.
Alice
Modified by alice at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 03:48:09
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