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Here is what is in Prem Rawat now. The organization booked the Houston Astrodome for a three-day gathering in November 1973, coinciding with Shri Hans's birthday and called "Millennium '73". Prem Rawat wrote in a letter to followers in September 1973 "As you all know Millenium '73 is being prepared for now. This festival has been organized by Divine Light Mission each year since 1967, in the memory of the late Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaji on His birthday. This year the most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America."[41].
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First, I don't think you should include the words from the letter about Shri Hans birthday as it's already covered in the description, it's not interesting enough to warrant an exact quotation and it detracts from the significant text that follows. Second, there are two other aspects of the letter that should be included: Rawat saying that the festival was not just for him and his followers but also for the whole world, maybe the whole universe, and the part where he invites his followers to help him bring peace to the world. All of that is sensational stuff and worthy of mention. Second, why not include something to the effect that Ron Geaves specifically denied that Rawat knew of, let alone participated, in the hype? Pretend you're Jossi. What would he do if this evidence swung his way? Do that.
Modified by Jim at Sat, Apr 15, 2006, 13:52:11
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The complete quote had been inserted, instead of a short excerpt, because there was a dispute about its meaning. See the talk page. I dunno yet if Geaves' implausible statement should be added. Andries
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Sorry, but it's simply not acceptable to delete part of the quote because Jossi doesn't like how readers might interpret it.
Modified by G at Sat, Apr 15, 2006, 15:00:44
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That's the essential part of editing a wiki article: provide both points of view and let the readers decide. It's difficult to keep your cool editing that article because it's an emotionally charged, controversial subject. It's also difficult to work with people who strongly believe your motive for editing is hate. It's so hurtful and always surprises me when it's mentioned. I've been mad at M, but I've never hated him. Heck, I used to adore him, he was everything to me. In the 70s part of that article that discusses Geaves and his paper, nothing is said about the huge resurgence of the ashrams in 1977 through at least 1980, especially during the DECA project, when ashram premies were Rawat's main source of free labor. Here it is: Discarding the trappings in the 1970sRon Geaves, a Professor and Chair in religious studies at the University of Chester, is also a long-time student of Prem Rawat. Geaves asserts that Prem Rawat never intended to create a religious movement or considered his message defined by any lineage or religion.[73] For example, whilst a religion tends to constrain behaviour according to a certain set of tenets, Rawat insisted that his senior staff should not interfere in any decisions that students made about their lives. That is, the emphasis was on people making decisions for themselves.[74] In 1975, Prem Rawat selected the first group of teachers he called "initiators", replacing the discarded title of "mahatma". This was one of the many and significant changes that took place within the organization in the second half of the decade, many of which were designed to remove elements of Hindu tradition that were unnecessary in the context of the West, and that were not a part of Rawat’s simplified teaching. Thus, the first part of 1976 saw changes that de-empahsized the Hindu associations that had been attached to Rawat from his Indian background, and a refocusing on him as an inspirational teacher. The notion of ahrams, where students lived a semi-monastic existence, was also challenged for similar reasons, and ashram residents were encouraged to consider leaving ; some did, and some of the ashrams closed at that time. Events in the summer of that year were distinctly westernized and were devoid of Hindu trappings; Rawat's clothing changed, and the former darshan lines were abandoned in favor of Western-style reception lines. [underline is my emphasis] That's it. It then jumps to 1979 and quotes another scholar that says some more apologetic nonsense. So, I'm plugging along, really really trying not to lose my cool, becasue that's "anti-wiki."  But, I'm not going to let anyone run me off this time, either. When editing Wiki, one has to play by the rules or it's just an terribly frustrating exercise. I have to say I was real cool and calm today in until just now, when I opened the talk page and one person said in response to a heated discussion, "What an outpouring of hate." That, after everybody was told to cool down by Jossi. I'm going to suggest that Jossi recuse himself from being an administrator on that article. It would be more fair.
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Apr 15, 2006, 18:09:51
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Geaves is a cited expert on Rawat who, on this occasion, is caught, recently (2006) and seriously mounting an outrageous defence for his master. This is ground zero, Andries: what we believed, just how outrageous it was, and what responsibility Rawat had for those beliefs. Millenium was the pinnacle of Rawat's early, public messianic campaign. Up until November 8, 9 & 10th, 1973, Rawat wanted as much public attention as possible for his amazing claim that he, and he alone, could bring peace to the world. The event was a nothing (a most interesting question we don't have to consider here is what the hell did Rawat think was going to happen?) and Rawat begin circling his wagons. It might not have been the most significant and Holy event in human history but it was indeed the most significant event in this cult's history. By the way, Fresco claims that he sees no conflict at all between Geaves' article and Rawat's letter. But he wouldn't explain himself to me, saying, bizzarely, that it wasn't to do with the article.
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I know for a fact that Ron himself considers himself the worlds leading academic expert on all things related to Maharaji. Love Bryn
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He's in a class of his own, there are no other leading academic experts on all things related to Maharaji. Who else would bother?
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Bryn, As someone who knows Geaves, how do you think he would treat what I think can be fairly called a smoking gun, Rawat's Millenium invitation? Jossi Fresco has already said that he doesn't see any conflict but, then again, he hasn't yet explained himself. What would Geaves say if forced to answer? I know I get excited about this stuff at times but I really do think this is huge (if anything in this whole cult/ex-cult scene can be called that). Millenium was it. Speaking for myself, it was the one time in my whole involvement when I actually believed that Rawat's miraculous power was going to spill out of the inner experience. And I know I didn't get there by myself, now did I? So here's Rawat's resident expert going way out on a limb; Rawat didn't just not feed the hype, he didn't even know about it! That's not just brazen, not just lazy, not just corrupt, it's downright greedy. That's the sign of an apologist realizing that if he's gotta lie, lie big. But then there's this pesky letter. Not a small one. Nothing back-stage about it, it was one of the very few letters Rawat ever wrote all his premies in those years. Each time it was meant to be momentous. He didn't invite us that way to all the other programs, did he? No, this was just the final proof in that final lift-off right before Millenium where Rawat completely signed off on the most significant and Holy hype in the history of this cult. And there's Geaves .... What do you think he'd say? That he didn't know about the letter? Makes him look so inept, poorly-researched, if believed, and a bald-faced liar if not. That he was wrong? But this was nothing small to be wrong about. It says it all. It's got all the God claims, the messiah stuff, neatly tucked in and ready to roll. Well, there I go again... 
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..hewould try to "blind you with religious science". He would throw his head back and fill the air with erudite abstractions concerning "the multi faceted function of religious language","the natural hyperbole in conceptual transition from east to west", "the crisis of meaning in western epistemology" and more. To me (though perhaps not you) these guys are unstopable. And what's worse, you have to listen to every last bloody syllable they honk out before you can make a cogent response, and then THEN you have to clear up their mess and slowly,bit by bit do their thinking for them, and all the while they are looking at you with the eyes of the beast! In short I think Ron would would bluster and evade. Not much news there I realise. It must be very satisfying to have an arena like yours, the courts, where a bullshitter can actually be cornered, but out here they slip through the net.(as you know). I agree it is a pisser and no mistake. To the hardcore squirming bullshitter there is room for evasion even in this smoking gun text. Eg: "As you all know Millenium '73 is being prepared for now. This festival has been organized by Divine Light Mission each year since 1967, in the memory of the late Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaji on His birthday. This year the most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America." Excuses: He could be simply using standard issue hindu styly reverential language to describe his dads birthday in general.Dad had after all been a mighty up front holy GURU, you'd expect a bit of flannel in referring to him.. after all. Its a cultural linguistic thing. He does say it is just another of DLM's gigs not his. "It is for the whole world and maybe the whole universe." In the mouth of a humble Joe like Maha, its just a statement-and its got a "maybe" in it too. The reader would have to be already seeing him as a "God" to think that he really had an intention and could actually influence the whole universe by a lecture. "Maharaji did not appear to have any knowledge of his American followers' expectations. He spoke as he usually does at such gatherings with no hint of messianic promises." On stage! On stage he did not "appear" to know what what was expected cos he just gave his usual rap.. Well why should he do anything else given the above? It wasnt even his gig. And further more Ron's angle is that a master in the tradition of the North Indian Nirguna Bhaktas always does his own thing at all times regardless of expectations, so this "not appearing" to play along by making any exceptional claims about his powers is there to support Ron's thesis about Mahas true roots. Oooo it is infuriating. Don't let me put you off Jim. I would love to see Ron held to his word. Would he talk to you email to email? I'll ask him if you want. There was another distinguished academic premie around in those days in Leeds who similarly used to lend his brain weight to the DLM cause. Dr. Jerry Ravetz, but he was a genuinely clever and as I recall helpful and humble person. I think he had the chair in philosophy of science. We used to have satsang in his office at lunch time! After I've posted this I'm going to google him. Below Jethro might have some entertaining memories for us courtesy of a question from Dan Cainer. All the best Love Bryn
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Hi Bryn, I hear what you're saying about post-modern smokescreens and I guess we'd just have to see what he'd say if anything but there's no getting away from the fact that Rawat singled out Millenium over and beyond any prior event in human history. Sure, one could try to get past that but not rationally. And while I agree that Rawat's tradition, outrageous as it is, allows him to blow his followers' expectations, the issue here is whether or not he knew or contributed to them. He's guilty of that beyond question. Geaves might have a safer footing if he were to say that, despite the Millenium hype and his knowledge or even contribution to same, Rawat was free to blow minds by doing something, nothing, or something or nothing in between. We've all heard that one. But he didn't argue that, he argued something much more pedestrian and this defence won't help him at all. Sure, I'd be happy to email with Geaves as I'm sure would Joe and others who've previously tried to engage him in an honest colloquy about our subject in common.
Modified by Jim at Sun, Apr 16, 2006, 16:29:30
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..and see what happens. You've got to give him some reverence though. He's not going to engage if the only win for him around here is not being called a c...! I think he might have a robust enough sense of humour to at least reply to my email.Then we'll know on record where he stands on the matter of communicating about communicating.(wow!) It appears to me that the all the way, long term,prominent student of K might be secure enough these days to respond to a light invitation to co-exist. Certainly others I know seem to be. Evasion is so unfashionable now. Of course don't hold yer breath Love Bryn
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Coincidentally, I was watching the TVTV LOTU video last week. While it doesn't have any footage of Prem Rawat making Kohoutek type wild and crazy statements it does have him making an in-joke when he arrives at Houston airport. Something like "isn't it about time everybody recognised who is God?" I can't manage the mangled word order and syntax that he is so adept in. Not everybody in the crowd got the joke but enough did to raise a very knowing laugh.
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Coincidentally, I was watching the TVTV LOTU video last week. While it doesn't have any footage of Prem Rawat making Kohoutek type wild and crazy statements it does have him making an in-joke when he arrives at Houston airport. Something like "isn't it about time everybody recognised who is God?" I can't manage the mangled word order and syntax that he is so adept in. Not everybody in the crowd got the joke but enough did to raise a very knowing laugh. Hi Ocker, Yeah that comment Rawat made was if truth be told quite telling, " . . . isn't it about time everybody recognized who is God." Not what is god, mind you, but who is God. I remember being stunned hearing that too. Who is Guru Maharaji Ji? Gee, I wonder? Rawat himself may not have made any crazy comments about Kohoutek at Millennium but his brother Bal Bhagwan Ji certainly did. According to Bal, Kohoutek really meant KO in Houston Texas. And also according to Bal Bhagwan Ji (who btw was The Divine Incarnation of Jesus Christ) OFOs were landing in Columbia telling Catholic nuns to receive Knowledge, and even the Pope was interested. In fact the whole Catholic Church was coming to Knowledge! My personal favorite though is Rennie Davis boldly stating that Bhole Ji (the guy twitching away in the gold lamé suit) is actually the Divine Incarnation of Music. Rennie has apparently changed his mind since then. Looking back I honestly don’t see how I got sucked into all that malarkey. The TVTV Lord of the Universe video (available at amazon.com) is a must see for all exes and even premies too - that is, if they have to guts to watch it. I’m so glad I got out. Thanks EPO.
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Bryn,I had an email exchange with Jerry a couple of years ago. He's no longer a premie. If you want to email him I can send you his email address. John.
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Ta John, I just saw his website. As a career academic he really went out on a limb for his master in the old days didn't he.We used to book university lecture halls through him, and I remember him fronting at at least one public program where I was music man. He was impressive satsanger in an erudite sort of way! The idea seemed to be that if clever people like Jerry could do devotion so could you ordinary punters. Such shite. As for using his study for lunchtime satsang wow! What would the rest of the faculty have thought? I used to post posters with pictures on of Maha advertising the meetings all around the uni. People must have known it was Jerry's thing. Glad to hear he escaped.He deserved a break. I liked him and he spoke thoughtfully.Blimey he must have listened to me satsanging without going for his gun! Spring in Latvia to your satisfaction? Love bryn
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Spring in Latvia to your satisfaction?No! - it's too slow in coming. The snow's all gone apart from a little mound outside the kitchen window, and the mud has pretty much gone, but the nights are still freezing, and nothing's growing yet (apart from the snowdrops). According to the forecast, Thursday may herald warmer weather, especially night temperatures. But that's fine - when spring does come here it's so fast, like an explosion of green. It's such a dramatic event the Latvians have a verb for becoming green. John.
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It's such a dramatic event the Latvians have a verb for becoming green. Id call it Latviating. Hello John B.
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Id call it Latviating.So what would you call the process of becoming white that happens at a different time of year? Hi, Loaf, hope all is well with you! John.
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