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Welcome here, mr. wisl I'm guessing you're Californian -- a wiser breed, to be sure. Congratulations to you for easing out and "growing up." However, perhaps you weren't caught in the mindfcuk of Bhakti Yoga on Wing Dings. See the first post in the thread just a little bit below entitled something like "30 years Did I miss Somethinng?" or something like that. To the many other people of the planet not having the wisdom which comes from living on the Left Coast, The Lord of The Universe was a great song, a cause -- here and now. Finally, he danced for his devotees into the early 80's costumed as Lord Kirshna with a flute. He settled down and now is just an inspirational speaker flying himself around the world in first class luxury. Anyway, some had their mind in the cult vise. Some still do. It was costly flying around the world to hear the same old same old. Experts have spoken about Guru Maharaji / Prem Rawat and his cult. Not just me, who was caught in it for near 30 years. What do I know, cause I was so dumb to get caught in it. Only first hand knowledge. I gave up having a normal life, family, love, career, retirement and didn't just fade away. I stuck it out like doing a model car kit; followed all the instructions carefully. Tried. In the end. I slinked away, with my tail between my legs, sorry I had cared so much. I dunno. I'm only human. It was near five years ago I left. Just walked away, like you, in the end. I have moved on and am glad I did. I just took 25 years extra compared to you. Must be the great produce you have out there in Sunny Southern Cal. In the early 90s, the guru bought a property in Australia to develop as a conference centre. It's got nothing but the restaurant and amphitheater so far with Arti and footkissing. but sparse in acommodations after almost 15 years. It's still the shwag tent for the average joe and no swimmin in the outback heat. In the early 70's, I lived in Denver for near six years in the ashram. Stick around if you like. Hope you get the info you seek. Thanks for posting.
Modified by OTS at Mon, Apr 03, 2006, 21:10:39
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Actually I live in Nebraska now . I lived in LA from 70 - 77 then moved to denver and lived there til 84 when I moved here. I never lived in the Ashram.. I was too much of a commitment-phone even back than... and I think I also took him at his word -> I remember him saying you don't need to be a vegetarian, celibate, whatever, to practice knowledge... But I also used my 'membership' as a way of avoiding taking responsibility for my own life... I could blame everything on GMJ if it didn't work out. Hmph! Some of the bitterness I see in postings from other Ex-premies I think is that as it turns out, we do make our own choices..no one can "brainwash" us without our permission. Oh and you can call me "Miz Wis" 
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I hear you about being a commitment-phone but surely, you know that Rawat talked out of both sides of his moth.
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Mz., Don't Mind Jim. He's a regular riot here. But we love him and he's, as you can see, MR. FUN. HA HA. If you see a typo, you can hit "EDIT" on the left side of your post (you can only edit your own posts and within an hour or 2 or something).
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Ms. Whiz, if you don't mind, I lived on Josephine Street in 1977-79. I'm with you on the responsibility angle, but I'm not sold that the bitterness is because we made as you say "our own choices... no one can 'brainwash' us without our permission." I think this is where the experts would disagree with you on how brainwashing works. And, I'm not an expert. But I want to agree because, gee, I was really brainwashed to think that behind everything, there was a really real one percent actual chance that, in fact, he WAS/IS actually "G-O-D." This is what keeps the old cultheads still going, I believe. There are links on the ex-premie.org website I'm sure which link you to the cult experts' opinions. Been to the Starlight Lounge for Mexican Food and Beer?
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"be careful... the plate is hot" if it's the one I'm thinking of, oh yes I remember, good cheap food and I wouldn't be surprised if that waiter still works there! I lived on 18th & Race in 77, moved to 10th & Washington in 79 and down south somewhere near the "new Satsang hall" in 80 - then back up to 22 & Gaylord from 82 - 84. we believe what we want to believe... and I chose to believe the "Generator, Operator, D...(?)estroyer" and chose to belive that he claimed *not* to be ... the supreme being, but I wanted him to be... Like any religion, and really it *was* religion, no matter what anyone tells you, there are many many contradictions in scripture. GMJ's "satsang" was his scripture and yes, like Jim says, he spoke out of both sides of his mouth... that way you can hear whatever you want to hear. and be spiritually lazy... I guess I can only speak for myself, but that's the way I see it.
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You know, Wislan, it is true that we technically had the option to ignore what Rawat said, consider him a liar or a con man, and the vast majority of people who heard Rawat's claims did that. Only a relative handfull of people actually took what he said literally, tried to live their lives by it, and thereby severely damaged themselves. Now, it's true that those of us who did that share responsibility for being so duped, but Rawat also shares responsibility for spreading the damaging bullshit he did, specifically, that the purpose of our lives was to devote them to him, to surrender to him, turn over our minds to him, and cut off the rest of our lives and live at the lotus feet. Well, you can imagine the problems that caused with things like education, careers, relationships with family and friends, relationships (or lack thereof), etc., for people in their teens and 20s. I was an ashram premie for almost 10 years, and left the Maharaji cult in 1983, so I don't have the damage some people had, who stayed 25 years, but, nonetheless, and although I, too, made some wonderful friends and met great people as a premie, it is still the biggest regret of my life that I ever got involved with Maharaji. But I have moved on, I am not angry or bitter, and I think, in fact, I'm now quite objective about this, which is easy, considering that I left over 20 years ago, my life is very good, and I no longer have any illusions about that part of my life. And I think sometimes people who had been premies find it difficult to look at that objectively, because it's easier just to look back with a kind of nostalgia, or only concentrate on your own, particular situation, which may not have been as bad as many others. And in that kind of rationalization, you might think about that you might still have some cult programming, the major programming of the Rawat cult being that Maharaji is never to blame, can't be blamed, and has no responsibility for any damage he has caused. If I might, perhaps you might consider that you are engaging in some of that kind of limited thinking when it comes to Maharaji. Nebraska. I'm from Iowa myself, but I received knowledge in Omaha, Nebraska a very long time ago.
Modified by Joe at Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 11:55:54
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I don't know how I would divide the responsibility pie, but to me Rawat has way more to account for than premies. After all, he was the one who became fantastically wealthy off the donations from those who thought he was LOTU. His impact on so many people makes him the one who should be examining the era and taking responsibility for his part. But of course he never will, because of what we know about him from those who were near him, he has some sort of narcissistic personality defect and really believes he deserves all this adoration. In the moments he doubts, it sounds like he gets drunk, stoned and abuses the trust of those who love him.....
Modified by Susan at Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 12:28:31
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We can talk about responsibility all over the place, but the LAW has a particular definition of culpability:We can wag our fingers at those who have fallen for fraud, but the law doesn't hold them accountable. The law holds accountable those who perpetrate the fraud. The law, at least in this country, seems to place the blame where it should reside...... with the perpetrator. Sure, we can accept some of the blame for falling for it, but if the fraud didn't exist, there would have been nothing to fall for, right? Seems pretty clear that this isn't a chicken/egg thing, it is a cause and effect thing. No fraudulent claims, no fraud.
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I'd still be a card carrying premie living in a dreamworld.
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...no need, once we were set up and got going in the ssm routine we automatically re-brainwashed ourselves everytime we gave satsang to anyone.
flangey!
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 08:38:04
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...no need, once we were set up and got going in the ssm routine we automatically re-brainwashed ourselves everytime we gave satsang to anyone.
That's a perfect way of putting it. It's like we were self-cleaning ovens.
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Thanks Jim! or self reinstalling and rebooting computers!
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 13:56:20
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2010, the year that will come and go...... no way are we going to Jupiter in MY lifetime, the bean-counters saw to that
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Thankyou for reminding me.. old friends who get uncomfortable at the suggestion that he might be even a little to blame are sure to have brainwashings still running in the background... While I would never normally condone criticism of any human being, here in pr's case it is a healthy sign...
plainer still!
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 15:34:43
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Right. I think it is a very fearful thing for a premie to even entertain the possibility that Maharaji can be criticized, or is at fault in any way. It is amazing the huge rationalization that premies will undertake to avoid blaming Maharaji or holding him responsible for anything that isn't positive. One of the main ways of doing that is to blame yourself, which premies are quite good at and suffer as a result of.
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Yes Joe, or blame each other... premies never forget.. once you have been heard to criticise.. watch out for changes in your lifelong friendships and relationships. They fear such people strangely.. projecting grandiose negative assumptions.
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 03:24:57
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Joe, this thread reminded me of a time when I said the following words, while having a spirited discussion with another premie in the "day:" My sentence started out with "I think Maharaj ji should......" You should have been there.... dead silence, except for the sounds of jaws hitting the floorboard of the car I was in. Well, ok, I also heard the sounds of a few big breaths and I could swear I even heard someone trying to suck their tongues dry...... Wasn't too funny at the time..... I was now a thought-leper! Except to one guy whose name was Fletcher. I know he was whack, but he was a very kind and gentle whack and I liked him. He said, with a wide smile and a gentle tone: I think you might be in your mind, brother..... and he smiled very nicely and that was that. He never brought it up again. Everyone else, tho, thought I was a thought-leper Added later: NO, this isn't the same Fletcher of Pat Halley fame..... this was a guy whose first name happened to be Fletcher. Whew!
Modified by NAR at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 19:08:15
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Your post reminded me of a similar time, a premie and I were sent on a long journey involving a 36hr. train ride each way. Somewhere along the way I was wittering along, the actual subject I can't remember, but the gist was that I made the mistake of speaking of the Holy Family as if they were an ordinary family, as it were, as human beings, with ordinary every day thoughts...
For more than a day I listened to a long lecture about how terrible it was: what a huge mistake it was; to ever, even for a single second, imagine that the Supreme Lord could ever think like a human being..
This was one of those moments when I should have left; but instead I was ashamed... and there was born in me the idea that there was some sort of super premie.
Whose mind was fired harder than a diamond.
Before whose forged gaze: always perceivable at the centre of halos of light: danced a tiny replica of yours truly
.. while I had a mind that thinks the Lord, his mother, his three brothers, his grandad, his grandmother, his (... anyone ..else ..did I forget someone ..oh that's right..) father; PARAMSANT SADGURUDEV SHRI HANS JI MAHARAJ! were human. my silly turdy mind with straw bits sticking out..
i think that's all ..serious about the grandparents they too were cosidered divine and if a premie came near it was compulsory to prostrate before them.......
I dropped my gaze and propped myself up on my baragon. But there I made my great mistake for while sleeping, he wouldn't stop and must have imparted the derra goon secret locking passwords (that shut you down for a decade at a time) while I chugged through the steam driven night, samadhic on my baragon...remember .... D
.........I mean Whew about the christian name...
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 21:32:52
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I lived fir a short while in the Palace of Peace(London UK), which was London's main premie centre in the 70s. One day, when I was alone in the main area, I dared sit on raja and rehan's (Claudia and Dharma Pal)big chair and fell asleep on it. Someone called Ron Geaves discovered me and seriously admonished me for daring to do that. I did 666 bole shris and was forgiven!
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a finite number! you were lucky! ...spot on, Dr. Ron!
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Sitting on HIS chair? OMG! I would never have done that! What kahonies, what guts, what hubris!LOL LOL..... that was GREAT! Man, and I thought "I" was a bad, bad, bad boy for just suggesting that I thought M should do something a certain way. Gawd forbid I should place my hiney in the same chair that the LOTU does (or his brother)....... LOL
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Me, I used to believe that line about ‘Knowledge’ being the real deal, the experience from which historically religions had sprung up in the wake of past Perfect Masters.And I thought therefore that sins such as sacrilege would be real deals something like deliberately lying about your experience of meditation not whether you sat in Papa Bear’s Chair, or ate his porridge. Or used The Divine Times in your kitty litter. Yes folks I allowed my kitten to poo on on a photographic image of Prem Rawat’s face… To me it was just an old newspaper and I like reusing things. In my innocence I thought the premie having conniptions was in his head! Ah well, I was only nineteen. As time went by my sense of autonomy became at least as disturbed through my cult involvement as his already was back then, I should have listened to him more carefully.
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Thanks ... scratching post lesley....
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While it is pefectly obvious that a child who excepts a sweet from a "nice man" and ends up in the back seat of a black limo with darkened windows, has a Zero Share of responsibility. The remaining 100% of the share is divided variously... open to suggestions.. in the case of the sweet, the sweet manufactures and purveyors: car customising industries etc.: parents of "nice man", etc. etc. .. In the case of m .. Indian culture has spawned "child gods" over time periods measured far beyond our own (the western cultures) historic records.
By Ind.'s standards: timewise; our ( standing to left of Ind. as it were, as the principle religions of J., Ch.. and Is.) combined religious histories are like one small chapter of the Ramayana.
Plenty of time to build quite a list of children who were duped by their royal parents into believing that they were "born gods". Even when all reason says otherwise we want to prove our parent's cause. Mike, perhaps the moment you caught as he bought a watch was the first moment he let his guard down in the West.. How can we; ultimately; blame the child which has almost no choice; that is ; outside of therapy; but to believe its parents were right. Which sees, indignantly, those who suggest anything to the contrary as intruders, willfully dismantling essential structures of the universe! It feels dutybound to hold the throne its parents suckled it upon.... we cannot, it is true, divide the blame between individuals, nor even cultures. At the end of the day, (no really, it works, this time,) oh alright .. at the end of an incalculable aeon... this, rather embarrassing incident in history will be regarded variously: with fascination, sympathy, horror.. academic interest..etc.. It is a simple tale of a child who grew up believing it was his duty to rule over the people his Father, the King had left him, he extended the empire as "god child" princes do.. . His parents told him he was born to do this job....a therapist might help but who would you find that he would trust, ...he must be one of the loneliest people But.. I believe the premies share of the blame... isn't too much of it.. The major blame juggling is a completely private matter (once its effect upon us and the west and our effect upon him is taken out): the rest is between m and his own culture and parents..
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 08:21:34
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I was 21 years old when I received knowledge... legally an adult. While I was not a 'grown-up' then, and it took growing up for me to realize that I was in a cult, i was not an innocent child duped into getting into a car with a stranger. It was only when I understood that I am responsible for my own happiness that I walked away. What I was, at 21, was lazy. it was just so very easy to fall for the rhetoric that told me that - it wasn't my resposibility! All I had to do was to sit back and let the "lord" take care of me. Sheeesh! Now I know this is gonna make some of you mad, but the fact is, we've all walked away, excercised free will. And that took some courage. I for one am now comfortable with the fact that I am strong enough to care for my self. It's certainly ok to be angry at GMJ for lying, but he is who he is... and he's the one who has to deal with that. And I for one, believe that he will, or is. If he's really a sex-addict, drug addict, power addict whatever -- he's an addict. I'm a better person for having walked away -- and it is only by 'falling for it' in the first place, that I was able to walk away.
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Point taken! Bad example....
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 08:54:17
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I've been cracking up for 2 days since you wrote that. I did not recall that at all until you wrote it and now, of course, I was told that at least 50 times over many years there. It just makes me laugh. Did you ever see the TVTV Special "Lord of the Universe?" starring Rene Davis and Goom Mragey? That guru guy is/was serious as a heart attack. Whaddy think of the TVTV show?
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Amaroo is coastal by Austalian standards, probably about 20 miles from the ocean as the crow flies. While it is a reasonably hot spot it's temperature is artifically inflated by the amount of hot air generated there. The outback starts hundreds of miles further west.
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Whatever. Been there too often and it's hot as hell in the unforgiving scortching sun. It's the world's most harshests conditions, I'm afraid.
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Hi there,
I imagine everybody has several things that piss them off and make their blood rush round a bit faster. Being taken into a cult and unwrapping a gift for twenty five years only to discover the guru, forgot to put the present in pissed me off somewhat. And to find that one of the guru's old pals was a cult official, travelling around the world at our expense, raping young children with full knowledge of other cult officials, also pissed me off considerably. But that's another story.
Anyway, the point I'm making here, is you can feel angry and hurt by something, but that doesn't mean that you're a sad, angry person whose life is filled with pain, because I'm not, and I know quite a few of the other vocal bitchers around here, and they're not either. So don't feel too sad and don't judge us soley on our letters of anger and misery.
I'd recommend you get to know some of your local ex-premies at one of their "hate group nights out in a restaurant". We all sit round telling each other how lousy the food is, and deciding who to hate next.
anth- I think I'll put on some Leonard Cohen and get my razor blades out- nah, I'm feeling positive, where's my Tony Blair doll and my pins.
Modified by AJW at Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 05:59:14
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>you can feel angry and hurt by something, but that doesn't mean that you're a sad, angry person< Too right Anth. Actually it pisses me of a touch when Wislan (as others have done before him) casts another person's anger as a basis for sadness (no worries though Wislan I'm not jumping on your neck - just making a point !). My anger at Rawat has little to do with what I may have experienced in the past - it is founded almost entirely upon what Rawat and his cronies are up to NOW. And Mr Blair - well there's another spiritual gimp parasitising on the ambitions of others. Nik
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how now do we avoid an empty future?
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 13:29:45
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For years .. allergic to anything relating to m I have been unable to think about k. Every so often I have to breath and sometimes, like a baby I innocently rub my tired eyes and enjoy it, my point is.. m's selfish inconsiderate insistence on owning these ancient techniques: which should, no less than the sky or the oceans be public domain: has alienated me from the physiological functions of my own body (excuse me Lord, may I go to the bathroom..) and put on hold a once healthy interest in yoga and self understanding. Not to mention (doh!) A Beautiful,Thrilling Personal Relationship with Nature, the Planet, Humanity, the Universe,.......and some other things I can't remember any more......
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 04:42:55
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It saddens me to see that some ex-premies seem still filled with pain, in some cases after many years, so raw it almost hurts to read it. My own experience is much more calm - i just gradually grew up I guess. I think the majority of ex-premies that post here live normal lives as you do. The difference between the ex-premies who post and those that don't is that some of us have done the unraveling of the cult mental manipulation in public. That has been painful for some of us. I'm over that piece now. I think that's what makes ex-premies extraodinary people, because healing from spiritual, emotional, and sometimes physical and sexual abuse is such a private thing, yet so many have chosen to do their healing publicly. Many of us have been a tremendous support to each other, too. I've seen so many courageous people post on the various ex-premie forums over the years -- particularly the ones who were sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo when they were children. That is another long story. The key to understanding this forum is that people do have a right to be angry about Prem Rawat because their lives were robbed by him. Many gave up college, careers, having children, and much more because Rawat demanded that they do it. There are others, like you, who didn't buy into the total surrender to the Lord of the Universe crap-trap. Believe me, I say "Good for you, you dodged the bullet!" I wish I had been more like you and less vulnerable, but I accept that that's what happened to me in the "world of Maharaji." Lately, I try not to use the word "brainwashed" too much because I think it's a misunderstood word that doesn't apply completely. When I use it here, most regulars know how I'm using the term. I wasn't totally brainwashed in the sense that all of my thoughts/mind were erased and replaced with all new ones. What Rawat did and continues to do to people now, is that he mentally manipulates, indoctrinates, seduces people with false promises, commits thought reform, and he also insidiously seeks free money while saying Knowledge is free. Then he lies about the money by saying he's a "successful private investor." Sure, I'm still a bit angry sometimes when I post. I also still feel sad about it from time to time, but generally I'm a happy person, who doesn't want a snake-oil salesman to get away with conning people anymore. Getting rid of Maharaj's mind-f**k after decades of involvement isn't a matter of growing up at all, btw. It's a process of reclaiming one's life, thoughts, and choices. Were you a premie who didn't attend satsang religiously every night 52/7? I'm curious about that because many people who got away unscathed report they didn't. Nightly satsang was a huge part of the mind control used by the cult. Welcome here, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Apr 04, 2006, 07:06:16
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I am enjoying this discussion so very much! I was an every night-er - used to get called up to sing alot. I also remember that there was a baskin-robbins ice-cream store right downstairs from the place we used to go to in LA. then I had a child, and some responsibilities, and well.. life happened. Someone in this thread talked about regrets. I really don't have any - I've made tons and tons of mistakes in my life - as we all have, premies or not. but I like who am am today, and everything in my life has led up to that. I was never "close" with GMJ himself -- if there's anything that helped me to "dodge" the bullet, that's was it. He never promised me anything personally, that I didn't get. The people around him, and some of the so-called leaders of the premie-community... that's another story completely... and honestly I think that's why I never lived in the ashram. Here was GMJ saying anyone can practice knowledge, and there were a bunch of mahatmas and other folks insisting on vegetarianism, celibacy, communal/commuistic living... One of the premie-houses I lved it we tried that stuff, with a housemother (me) and a housefather and combining money etc... frankly I think it sucked, and it didn't last very long either. I can remember being stuck with a huge rent and utility bill after everyone moved out. Ah well, again, it was a learning experience for me. Having said all that - one of the things I tell my (now grown-up) children, is don't do what your mom did. Don't wait until you're 40+ years old to get your life together. Find a passion, and don't make any excuses. Thanks again. this is great.
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Wisland, I was never "close" with GMJ himself -- if there's anything that helped me to "dodge" the bullet, that's was it. He never promised me anything personally, that I didn't get. The vast majority of premies have not been close to M. I worked closely for him, but I can't say we were "close." I don't know of any premies around Maharaji, or "PAMs" who were promised anything by him personally, either. Everybody was pretty much in the same situation, listening to his satsang, trying to obey his agya, and sometimes being berrated by him if they didn't satisfy his every whim and demand. I think it's his behavior that filtered down through the ranks, too. He could be a nasty SOB, placing undue pressure on people, who obviously would pass it on, because what Rawat wants, Rawat gets. He really has a terrible personality that's nothing like his stage persona. He's mostly focused on himself, not premies. But, I'm curious, what did you get from what Maharaji promised?
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 06:47:01
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I agree with your summary Cynthia. Premies wanted to grow like him because they thought that he was what he promised that he was. They hoped eventually to become perfect like him! Instead they imbued his negative traits until they became more and more like him in his behind the scenes persona. What could be worse disappointment?
Two of them!
Seriously can you imagine two similarly infused personae trying to co-exist in the same space? It would be an absolute impossibility. Premie marriages hardly had a chance!
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 15:51:15
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I think even people who felt they had a personal relationship with the person Prem Rawat, didn't have one in the usual sense, and it certainly wasn't healthy. And you are absolutely right, 99.9% of the premies only had a "relationship" to the Maharaji up on stage, or in the darshan line, and in other very controlled circumstances, which were used to try to add to the belief system that he was God, or at least divine, was actually in control of our lives, was the source of any "good" experience we had in connection with "knowledge," and all the rest.
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Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 15:46:06
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of course ..duh!..thanks..
catching up..
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 03:35:13
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PAMs is an acronym for Premies Around Maharaji. I think they're the ones who are X-rated, meaning they've been screened to witness the debauchery at the residence. Maharaji's inner circle.
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Thanks guys.. They have my deepest sympathies.. I fear for them..
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 03:40:27
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Hi Cynthia,
When I was playing, there were two classes of PAM, some were X-rated, some not. I wasn't. I didn't find out about all that stuff until I left. I see the divine pyramid from those days as something like the list below.Don't deconstruct it too much, or it will collapse, killing the poor ex-premies on the bottom.
1. Lord on throne at top.
2. Holy Family around feet.
3. Old Indian mahatmas from way back.
4. Personal staff, X-rated. inc some instructors.
5. Personal staff, not X-rated and some instructors.
6.People doing projects where the Lord has personal invovement.
7.Instructors and a few national co-ordinators.
8. National co-ordinators of low income countries.
9. Full time staff at the national office, plus some community co-ordinators.
10.Ashram secretaries.
11. Housemothers.
12. Ashram premies.
13. Community premies in premie houses.
14. Premies with children.
15. Aspirants (the curious and gullible)
16. Normal people who have rejected the message, and animals.
17.Reptiles and fish.
18. Worms and cockroaches.
19. Bacteria.
20. Ex-premies.
Hope all is well.
anth who knows his place in the order of things.
Modified by AJW at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 07:25:39
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I was a mere dung beetle waiting to be trod upon by the lotus feet. I was never x-rated either. As I scanned your list this morning I laughed, nearly spitting my coffee onto my computer when I came to item 20, ex-premies, well under bugs and bacteria. Come on Anth, don't we get rated as "normal?"
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Weren't you at the Tuscon conference, I think it was around 80. Captain Rawat told a story that went something like this, "At the moment you are travelling down a tube, but there will come a time when the tube will end, and you will have to keep going. If you don't, you will fall, and you will be broken into a thousand pieces, and will never be repaired."
So, the ex-premies are the broken ones. When all the universe has turned back into divine light, there will be you, me, Dr Wow, Marianne, Jim, eDrek, Jean-Michel, Katie, Brian, SHP, Robyn, Mick, Mike, Gerry, Joe, Susan, Nigel, La Ex, Aunt Bea, Anthony, JHB, Jethro, Hamzen, NAR, Nigel, , Nottm Bunny, Falcon, and maybe even Neville (although he and Susan may escape because they have strong get-out clauses in their christian contracts) and the rest of the ex-premies. Anyway, we'll all be hanging around, waiting for a new universe to start so we can try again.
And of course, life starts from bacteria- but in the case of the new universe, we will be there first. That's why we're at number 20. The absolutely lowest form of life.
Clear now?
Anth the scientist.
Modified by AJW at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 07:17:15
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escape you guys NAH......were all at the bottom together forever!
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Hopefully Dot and I will see you before then Susan. Like, maybe next year.
Anth, who loves to go a wandering.
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I'm not sure but I'm guessing "people around Maharaj ji"?
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I received something when I meditated. I still meditate... sort of. Maybe not "Peace" with a capital P - but... Well here's an example. A couple of times a week I attend a class in T'ai Chi. we usually sit in meditation for the 1st 20 minutes or so. I don't know what everyone else is doing, but I'm watching my breath the way I used to back in "guru days". and I feel the stresses & worries of the day fade away and get the nice little buzz I remember from those days. Maybe I just had lower expectations.... So now you've got me thinking.. ( I *love* this forum! I makes me think!) I'm guessing that I don't feel particularly betrayed, because I never really believed him in the first place. I just figured he was talking in metaphors. Hmmmmm.
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'I just figured he was talking in metaphors.'
Damn - maybe he was! And I took him so literally. I even thought he'd come with more power than ever before - but maybe he was talking about something else. So confused...
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yeah.. maybe.. he was offering a deal on lithium ion batteries... or had a surplus of electric socket extensions..
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old, withered, well worn, first technique hand, original owner realistic repetive strain injuries in thumb . 1st 2 fingers cramped to optimum performance ... but works well as mouse holder... offers
Endof
Ownarm
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 08:30:35
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wanted: therapist .. willing to take on insurmountable tasks in exchange for yoga lessons
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 09:12:59
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There's nothing wrong with using the meditation techniques to calm down or catch a buzz. On occasion I concentrate on my breath, but for me and for a long time I couldn't do that because every time I tried, I associated the experience as coming from Maharaji. Why? Because he told us that. Among other things, he said that Guru Maharaj Ji was Knowledge. Other exes have reported this, too, but there are a few exes posting that also still practice the meditation. While he spoke in parables and metaphors so much, M also told premies that we must obey him implicitly and listen his every word. Now, the cult apologists and Rawat revisionists claim that it's our fault for the misunderstanding. We've been called "unlit matches." I laugh at that because Rawat was quite clear, especially to ashram residents, that we were to obey him, surrender to him, devote our every waking minute to him and no one/nothing else. Yeah, it's great to think, isn't it? One of the best parts of talking to other former members is to use criticial thinking. Remember the commandment: "Never leave room for doubt in your mind?" I think it's quite the opposite on this forum. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 06:56:19
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Hi Cynthia, hope you don't mind me picking up again on your posting...you seemed to be addressing the same issues I was planning to, I always enjoyed meditating before I met m. From the time I met m, months before I took k, my enjoyment dwindled.
Early that first morning as I meditated on the roof, the first mahatma to rise saw me, and told me to stop: that I didn't need it any more, m's k would make it unecessary to do yoga.
After I eventually folded to persuasions to take the knowledge, meditation enjoyment or affectiveness declined inexorably throughout the long time period until; years later, (once I could not deny I was outside) ( I was thrown out more than leaving on my own freewill) (it took decades to stop clinging on as a premie in the boonies) enjoyment or even contemplation of attempting to meditate ceased completely.. it was all charged with bitter associations.
One concern is:- some of them are close to vital functions. Breath presumably is an involuntary action. Rendering it a self conscious act is a waste of CPU power.
I wouldn't be surprised if trying to control or monitor it might also cause hyperventilating and panic attacks... Not breathing at all has been rumoured to endanger health to a greater degree and for longer periods!
Yoga is fine if it is practised as and when one feels like doing so but to have emotional issues, guilt trips, fears, hopes, ambitions, etc.. all tied into :say: the breath.. can only lead to unnecessary additional connections between involuntary (GOD/NATURE given) function, the nervous system and organs, and the fluctuating and often rocky levels of the above unfinished list.
Any way: now, being one who got too heavily involved and lost my identity for a long time, I have little hope of ever experiencing meditation as it once was. Gone: the innocent days before knowledge when I sat upon a rock by the sea, empty of thought: and imagined the breeze upon my brow to be in some incomprehensible; yet no less (at that moment(for me)) real way: the hand of God.
I have spent too much time in stuffy meditation rooms and knowledge sessions. Its like starting from scratch .. only worse... much worse ....Its not like starting from scratch
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 13:07:37
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I never practiced or tried any kind of meditation or yoga prior to K. For the most part, I was living my life partying as a young adult in 1975. But, your post resounds with me because I also have felt this way (as you stated it): Yoga is fine if it is practised as and when one feels like doing so but to have emotional issues, guilt trips, fears, hopes, ambitions, etc.. all tied into :say: the breath.. can only lead to unnecessary additional connections between involuntary (GOD/NATURE given) function, the nervous system and organs, and the fluctuating and often rocky levels of the above unfinished list. One thing that happened to me after I left M for good was that I felt very relieved not to have to obey him anymore, especially to meditate. I felt so guilty when I didn't. At that point, I didn't want to meditate anymore so a huge weight was lifted. But, I also had an aversion to meditation, which kind of made me mad, because I felt M ruined it all for me. There have been times when I've wanted to take a simple yoga class for toning up my body and relaxation. I've never been able to to it because of the strong connection in my mind that ties breathing to Prem Rawat. The other reason is that lots of the local yoga instructors connect spirituality to yoga, which I can't deal with at all. So, I've avoided it. It's been so difficult for me to get rid of the association of Maharaji himself, personally, to the breath technique (holy name), so I don't practice any of the K meditation techniques on a regular basis for that reason. I have noticed in the past year or so that my "meditation aversion" has lessened, and on occasion I've been able to take deep relaxation breaths without thinking about M, sometimes even practicing the breath technique without thinking about him. It's hard, and the imprint has been so incredibly strong. I think it's insidious that Rawat indoctrinated me into thinking my breath comes from him personally! Whatta guy! He denies it, but that's exactly what he did. He continuously said that Knowledge is GMJ. I think the mahatmas were assholes, power-trippers, fucked up thinkers. I saw them as aggressive, expecially towards female premies. Gone: the innocent days before knowledge when I sat upon a rock by the sea, empty of thought: and imagined the breeze upon my brow to be in some incomprehensible; yet no less (at that moment(for me)) real way: the hand of God. Maybe it's gone in the way you once knew it, but is there a possibility for you to reclaim or recreate it? I live in rural Vermont where it's beautiful all around me. I live on a hollow road between two mountainsides, with ponds, streams, wildlife, and many, many birds. There's almost no traffic, the air is clean, my decision to be here had nothing to do with M, so I'm able to soak up the silence and solitude freely. I suppose that's my form of meditation now. I don't equate natural beauty with M (it's creator) anymore. Thank God.
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 10, 2006, 08:08:56
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Thankyou so much for your reply Cynthia, you are right of course, I too live, surrounded by pure, unspoilt nature, there are places I could go, give nature a chance to jog my memory. I've sort of lost the will to.....perhaps it will start to come back; this forum has been a deep healing for me...
I can't tell you how much it helps to hear your words and to hear, addressed at last, what has been an ugly and undeclared secret subject with me.
The trouble seems that we were unable to actually listen to our own thoughts, due to the constant reaffirming of the simplistic gm party line. We felt guilty if any other view reared its lovely head.
Modified by LP at Mon, Apr 10, 2006, 08:35:24
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all ... could all that was necessary in order to set up a self perpetuating continuum be; to train communities and individuals how to maintain and top up levels of self applied brainwashing? When, presumably ss & m are done in some sort of continuous cycle, several layers of hypnotic auto suggestions are self given, particularly when trying to give satsang to others, I am just realising.. and of course we tried to brainwash each other regularly ... remember?
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 05, 2006, 14:58:36
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Hi LP, I'm sorry for the confusion about using the term "brainwashing." Of course we were brainwashed. We were mentally, spiritually, and emotionally manipulated to an extreme that I do think is brainwashing. But, I've grown to be somewhat sensitive to the use of that term because it's a hot, controversial issue among sociologists of new religious movements, cult experts, current cult members, and former cult members. Here's a link to Apologetic's Index, that explains the definition and the controversy, if you're interested. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b09.html
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Hi Cynthia, my apologies, I just picked up on the word as it occurred in the texts, I was reading. No, its not a word I usually use either. However, I have browsed your site suggestion and in the brief perusal I gave it, (I 'll check further later) it seems to check out on a fairly high percentage of points..anyway.. am happy to hardly use the word and I take your point about unecessary links to other controversial issues. Thanks for reply..
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 09:18:33
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Hi again, Please use the word "brainwash" all you want. I fluctuate.  I've been accused of personally attacking certain online premies by saying I think they are brainwashed, so this is really about me personally. IMO, the word does apply, but there are others that work as well Bests, Cynthia
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Our Perfect Master ,used to joke about being accused of "brainwashing".....and put a positive spin on the word. I seem to remember his mother or himself saying " Wash yourself in the river of Satsang".... I suppose that means " Stick around until you are thoroughly brainwashed" I believed all the stuff and nonsense and let myself be brainwashed....and when it seemed to be wearing off ,I went back for more and more and more........for me it was an escape.........
Modified by Lexy at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 17:23:19
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I remember Padarthanand telling us aspirants in our K selection that Maharaji does brainwash people. He brainwashes them by giving them Knowledge and by doing that we are rid of our minds, thereby washing us clean of all that chatter and unnecessary thinking. (I got selected.) There also was a period of time in the mid-70s when premies gave satsang about that. I'm sure I did it too (I hide my head in shame!). In response to the deprogamming media buzz, the logical premie response was that Maharaji was "reprogramming" people so that we knew the real truth in our lives by washing our minds clean through giving us Knowledge, real peace, satsang, service and meditation and the holy lotus toes.
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 18:12:15
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Hi Cynthia, "I remember Padarthanand telling us aspirants in our K selection that Maharaji does brainwash people. He brainwashes them by giving them Knowledge and by doing that we are rid of our minds, thereby washing us clean of all that chatter and unnecessary thinking. " That is EXACTLY what the person who first gave me rapsang said, and he was one of padarthanand's fruits from Australia. Then of course, there is that most famous speech of rawat's father who said "Wash your mind in the dye of holy name". I think he spelled dye wrongly!!! What he really meant was 'give me your money then feck off and die'.
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'It saddens me to see that some ex-premies seem
still filled with pain, in some cases after many years, so raw it
almost hurts to read it. My own experience is much more calm - i just
gradually grew up I guess.'
That was my response when I first came across this forum. I had just walked away, lost interest, done other things, met other people, and looked back less and less often. What was the big deal? Why were people still so upset?
Then I spent some more time reading through this stuff and realised that I had never come to terms with all those years I was a cult member. I had never analysed my experience in the cult with the same rigour I applied to current events. I get pissed off with the guy at the garage if he tries to pump up the bill, the insurance guy that ... no, wait, any insurance guy..., I got mad at Woolworths displaying mild porn in the window the other day, and went and had a word with the manager - you get the picture. But I didn't have a word to say about the guy who posed as the Lord of the Universe and had me fooled for years. Strange!
I guess it was simpler not to face the facts, to avoid the embarrassment, to write it all off as the folly of youth. I'm glad reading this stuff made me re-examine those times. I got mad too, though I realised I had a bit less to get mad about than those that lost people, careers and money.
I don't think calmness is necessarily a positive outcome. If someone repeatedly punches me in the face, I think it is appropriate at some point to punch back and make it stop. Probably not calmly. (Christians - feel free to keep turning the other cheek).
Maybe you remain calm because you haven't yet fully appreciated what you and others lost in the great Lord of the Universe scam?
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me too!.. re: never analysed my experience in the cult .... didn't have a word to say about the guy... simpler not to face the facts ... Years after I thought I was over it I find there is still so much. I, have driven it myself, (and had it driven by people from almost every culture in the world) into the depths of my subconsciousness from every concievable direction.
A few years ago I was invited on a therapeutic course. After two weeks of searching an internal list of all the people I might have unexpressed anger about, and turning this on a defenceless cushion, in the name of my parents and any one who fit the bill. It never once occurred to me to apply this to m. It wasn't that I thought about it, his name just didn't come up. It was weeks later that it even occurred to me.
Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 12:25:50
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And he's still pulling the same scam, if a bit more subtly than then, so it's not just old timers giving vent.
And I do find it interesting that whenever someone turns up here making those kind of statements, it's always about me. me, me.
There are people still trapped into that thought bubble, apart from the newbies, thankfully not too many, and I don't think it would be unfair to say that that's at l;east partially because of the online ex-premie presence.
So you see things are not as straightforward as it looks, and that's not even addressing the main part of your point.
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please note: this refers to an annoying reply which was often used to get certain unskilled painters and builders to sit down and have a cup of tea, (spoken, mornings by the girlfriend of an unnamed premie ( statistics suggest that he is more probably an exe by now) .) while we waited sometimes ages for unnamed to come out from under the blanket in the cupboard. Often late, none of us dared to disturb him! .. and this is not meant to be taken out of context.. honest.. gov... and i have made this statement of mine own fre wil
lampy
Modified by LP at Wed, Apr 12, 2006, 12:34:54
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