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"Jeremiah Itzhaki" posted this on several indymedia web sites.
The photo of Rennie Davis came from this web page on CNN:
CNN Cold War - Interviews: Rennie Davis
Modified by G at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 05:44:15
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I hate the lies he tells.
I'm beginning to wonder if the only qway of dealing with the total po-facedness of that kind net posting is just to take the piss out of it
Nobody, but nobody except a premie would even waste their time on that stuff.
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And I won't say that becasue it just feeds into their delusional thinking. It's obvious the guy's a premie. A Google search on his name brought up only the Indymedia post about Davis. This was all in response to me stating that the only people calling exes a hate group are Prem Rawat, Elan Vital and premies, so I think Momento posted this as a "so there" kind of thing. There isn't an ex-premie who identifies themself as such on wiki talk pages (in my case Another Ex-Premie) who isn't ridiculed and/or verbally abused by the premies there. It started out by me providing quotes of M to show how contradictory he has been about his definition of "Guru Maharaj Ji." It's impossible to have a rational discussion with premies who are fully engulfed in Rawat's belief-system. That's part of what makes it a cult. The glaring contradiction is that ex-premies are accused of religious intolerance along side the insistence that Prem Rawat doesn't promote a religion. Some strange thinking going on. It's difficult to disprove a negative, however. That's what makes the accusation so disgusting.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 06:41:29
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We've got to be careful what we post, or this is the result--our words twisted. I would cite JHB as someone who always, to my knowledge, maintains a diplomatic tone. Even that hasn't made him bullet-proof, hence the rubbish on 1-Reality. I'm nobody around here. Yet I could post something hate-filled, it could get cited in an article, and someone like JHB catches the flack through association. (And EPO loses credibility at the same time.) It's sickeningly unfair, but that's the world we live in. Watch your words. Don't hand EV ammunition on a plate. Neville B
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I stand by every word of what I wrote. A "diplomatic tone" is fantastic for all sorts of stuff and John's got it down to a "t". I love him for it, really. But we've all got our voices and no, I don't regret a single syllable. Anyone reading that stupid article would understand that something about Rennie's triggered some strong disgust and disdain in someone else. Big deal. The cult just uses this "hate group" stuff to get under our skin. No one else takes them seriously.
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Hate group, feh!....... So when was the last time a premie was accosted or assaulted by an ex? I find it odd that premies would utter those words since their every move with regard to you, Mike and others is so hate filled as to be seen oozing out of their pores. If that is liberation, they can have it!Premies really wouldn't want to see what a "real" hate group could/would do to them. The treatment of Blacks in the south by the KKK comes to mind. THAT was a hate group. People speaking their minds about a PUBLIC personality is FREEDOM OF SPEECH, get over it, premie airheads!
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I wanted to construct a description of real hate groups, but I wound up on Nazi sites and in the end I had to get outta there. It was all too much. Ah heck...now they'll probably twist that around and claim I'm a Nazi. Neville B
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That's better.Well, I guess I just sealed my fate in the nazi department, eh? You and I both know....... if it's inflammatory, use it! That is the lesson of the cult apologists. There is an inflammatory phrase that brings up images of dachau and jacka**es dragging people around behind pickup trucks and such.... it's called "hate group." So, why not use it, the premies ask. But, you knew that already...... it's like using the race card when one is losing an argument and has no response..... same thing.
Modified by NAR at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 15:57:15
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I think you just about got away with it. Neville B
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....just get on with their lives and are not interested in making accusations about supposed "hate groups". IMO these people are a minority who see themselves as heroes defending their Lord. Very twisted and sad. For once I agree with Neville.Without being overly self - censoring we should try not to add fuel to their fire.Some of the responses to Rennie were OTT insensitive and made me squirm. I've just expressed an opinion.Please don't attack me in an exaggerrated way .That's the other thing these deluded premies watch out for....dissension amongst us.There's nothing wrong with disagreeing but the premies will put a dark spin on it in their familiar way.
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Open disagreement and argument are very un cultlike things. But, in hindsight, I think I was one of the Rennie detractors. However, I just posted my honest feelings when I read his letter. I just felt like, yech, this is a condescending slap in the face.
Modified by Susan at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 15:47:58
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HI Lexy,
Why on earth would I want to attack you for an opinion?  I missed the Rennie adventure because I was busy sulking, but that is another story. I think I can understand why he was treated that way, although I am loathe to put words in Jim's mouth (or anyone else's). Rennie had some influence, was a person of some renown and was a PAM. If Jim or any other person hailing from than time hear's one of the PAM's doing the apologia thing, the result is sure and certain. I agree, to a degree, with Neville, too. It does give some ammo to the other side, but if we are too wimpy and sound like Rennie sounded, then we become ineffectual....... ahhhh, it was all a bunch of harmless fun and we should "move on" while permitting others to get sucked into a cult that WE KNOW is a cult. See what I mean? It's a very fine line on which we need to tread. Sometimes we are going to fall off the highwire because someone really shook that wire. In Jim's case, I think that may very well be what happened. I'll tell you this, Rennie got off pretty easy, I've seen worse. But..... that is MY opinion and you can attack me all you want
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Hi NAR, If you go to forum page 5 you'll see John's open letter to Rennie, then Rennie's reply is on page 4 - and he's the main topic for a few days after that. In case you're looking for a new saviour in these troubled times, Rennie would appear to be that man (if you follow links to his Ventures for Humanity site) There are a few forthright posts, for sure, but nothing intimidating or threatening. Bear in mind that Rennie hadn't posted in person, and was happy for his letter to be made public. Anyway, go check it out - it'll keep you busy for a few hours... Nige
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Attack? You've headed me off at the pass. Actually you seem to have come back from the boonies like a born-again bouncy kind of NAR and I'm thinking of asking you if you would be my Guru.
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My ego will grow and grow and grow........ nooooooooo! I'm trying to be a humble dung-beetle at his lotus feet and there you go trying to make me feel superior and everything. Oh my Guru Mariachi...... it has been long since I heard thy requests for money.... I mean satsang, servile and meditation. I do misseth our long talks and the shredding of my ego that ensued at each turn of your radiant face in my direction. Please, oh please, My Guru Mariachi, deem me worthy of your presence. I await with baited breath (sorry, my dear lord, I forgot to brush after eating the garlic-sauteed linguini..... vegan, of course Let's see if that drags him out of the woods.... or should I say jungles of central america
Modified by NAR at Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 18:58:24
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You sure know how to damage a boy's equanimity, Lexy. I'll be up all night now, pacing, fretting, wondering what else I said you disagreed with. AND I HAVE AN INTERVIEW TOMORROW. I hope you're satisified. Nev....zzzzzz
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Lexy, After you ridiculed the "so-called experts" here for replying so strongly to Rennie, I invited you to show us how to properly respond. Alas, you didn't. You might have other reasons for not doing so but I think one is that, when it comes down to it, Rennie really did patronize and insult us and our common history with him and that any reasonable response would have been necessarily disrespectful. Of course if you didn't take a shot at it yourself, you'd never have to admit that what I'm saying might be true.
Related link: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/2353.html
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There is a post on the other forum that was for you, John and others. If you didn't see it, please do take the time to read it! If you did and don't care to respond, I respect that, too.Glad to see you here, btw.
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I just read the thread in its entirety, including your response, Jim and "you done good," as did Mick and others.I even read the little thing that was posted by you, the article about Rennie, and was utterly aghast: He now thinks he can lecture on physics????? To wit: "...To me, money is...a psychological construct. One of the great discoveries occurring in the present time involves recent discoveries in physics about the thought-reactive nature of this world. It turns out our entire reality is a psychological construct, and all our experiences, including those involving money, are coming from ourselves....." Uh, no Rennie. That is not what QUANTUM Physics is about (that is what it's called, Rennie, Quantum Physics). It's a class you should have taken in between your silly protests. But I guess you were too busy hawking a guru at the time. Since you apparently haven't even visited a book on the subject, I guess your simplistic privately-held understanding of the subject can almost be forgiven..... except that it isn't a privately held opinion..... you just spewed your nonsense in an article. Your take on Quantum Physics bears about as much relation to reality as what you thought and said about the guru in the book, "Who is Guru Maharaji." Total new-age nonsense! To draw the conclusion you drew reminds me of something that Carl Sagan once said about Venus. We would look at Venus through telescopes and see "nothing" due to the impenetrable cloud cover. People started to conjecture that the clouds "must" be caused by huge amount of water vapor. Where there is huge amounts of water vapor, there must be thick forestation. If there were thick forestation, then evolution must be in full swing. If evolution is in full swing, then there are probably dinosaurs. So what do we learn from this? "We look at Venus and see nothing, THEREFORE dinosaurs!" Now, was I too rough on him? Me thinks not!
Modified by NAR at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 17:47:08
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Mike, Yes, well we clearly agree on this. I get the sense that Rennie Davis is hopping around in a pink bunny suit with a lollipop in his mouth. It's forced, wilfull infantilism which might still work a bit for young girls at raves but is just plain downright stupid for anyone else. Coupled with his chronic urge to assert himself as some sort of planetary leader, he's leading with his chin and deserves some good, frank feedback. And that's just generally speaking. For Rennie, of all people, to talk down to us, which is exactly what he's done, is grossly insulting. It raises a fair reaction and he should feel its heat. Of course, he's so insulated from reality by his spirtual ego, etc., this is kind of academic.
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Hi JimI am not quite sure why you are responding to NAR saying 'Hi Mike'? If you know him personally, and he is a Mike, then it is still confusing to everyone else since they all know him as 'NAR' only. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Yes, well, I forgot. Sorry, Dave.
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Jim, you hit the nail right on the head. Anyone who reads this should remember that I wasn't here for the whole thing and, as such, received my first exposure to it just yesterday (literally).I agree with you take entirely. I felt demeaned and insulted, almost immediately. What a crock. If I didn't know better (and actually I DON'T know better), I'd think he was still a closet cultie. To Mike: Yes, Jim knows me and the reason I changed my moniker was that when I returned from a short hiatus, there were Mike's everywhere. To avoid confusion, I changed to NAR..... short for New-Age Redneck (which is another moniker I used for awhile, but it was too long). I was bestowed that "title" a long time ago by Katie........ after some joking and joshing around. I liked it, so I kept it It certainly avoids confusion. BTW Mike, in case you didn't know, I read your dissertation with great interest, since astrophysics is my bag. Funny thing was that I didn't realize, when I read it, that you were the same Mike Finch of premie fame..... in fact, the thought hadn't even entered my mind It is nice to know that so many ex's really have succeeded with their careers, post-guru. Maybe we all wish we hadn't wasted the time in the first place, but you are one of the folks that prove to other ex's and any aspiring ex's, that life doesn't end when you pull the plug on the guru.
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Not from a career angle for me for sure, always too much of a non-compromising slacker, but the life I've lived since, well there's no way it could have happened as a premie, and even if it had I would have missed so much of the point of it with a premie mentality, and I know for a fact the mates I have now would definitely not be my mates. In fact arguable that the day I consciously said no more, I don't care if you are God, I'm outta here, has to be one of my proudest moments.
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Hi NARNo I wasn't saying you can't be a 'Mike' if you want (as long as you and I have something to distinguish our monikers). I was just confused at Jim's using it out of the blue, that's all. I don't meet too many people who have actually read my dissertation! Do you mean the PhD thesis, or one of the spin-off articles published in professional journals (I got quite a few out)? They say the worth of a PhD is how many published articles you can get out of it! I am happy to say I milked my PhD for quite a few. It is a pretty niche audience though, you have to be really up in second order differential equations, the General Relativistic field equations, or neutron stars, to even want to read it! Thanks for the kind words anyway. Take care -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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I believe the paper you wrote with Skea, published in 1989, is the one to which I refer. Very interesting work. Yes, neutron stars interest me to a very large degree, since my first love is CV's. Supernovae, and their remnants, being first amongst the many. Actually, my attention has turned to AGN's, of late, with OJ287 heading up the party. But that is a long story and very much a niche interest Oh, and no I didn't think you were preventing me from using "Mike," that was my decision some time ago. It was good to have the well-known Mike's around, like yourself. I figured it would be easier to use another name to avoid confusion, so I did
Modified by NAR at Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 05:57:39
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Yes Skea was at Queen Mary College, London, where I lectured for a short while on this sort of stuff.We collaborated on two or three articles. If you are in the academic game you must collaborate with people whose last name is alphabetically below yours, so the paper you mention is 'Finch et al' rather than 'Skea et al'!! In fact, those articles were done off my actual PhD work, so it was justified my being the lead guy. I think he actually wrote them - can't remember now, it was a while ago. My main interest has gone from astrophysics to metaphysics now, more and more abstract. But if you have some solid math or physics under your belt, people tend to take your metaphysics more seriously somehow - it shows that at least you know what real science is about. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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This is what I said and if Rennie read it I presume my feelings would have been clear to him.I don't have to jump when you ask me to do something ,Jim and at that time I was preoccupied with my real non-forum life. http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/2324.html
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Lexy, We've had this argument several times but politeness, courtesy and respect are not simply a matter of speaking softly. Rennie was insulting and patronizing but a response to him along the lines you suggest would also be patronizing. Anyway, I admit that you did step up to the plate a bit. I also think you were obliged to given the way you criticized comments like my own, suggesting that you knew better. But at the end of the day, I'm still much happier with my approach which, I believe, does a better job taking into account Rennie's overwhelming ego and the fact that he's very much in the biz, as they say.
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Lexy wrote "I'm pretty certain that most premies |
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just get on with their lives and are not interested in making accusations about supposed "hate groups". " |
I believe that. Ardent followers are always a small minority. The fraction of (ex-)followers of SSB who are interested in online debates and calling the other party names is small. Andries
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Hi CynthiaThere are articles like this all over everywhere now against me. I am building a little collection. They all sound the same, they are all anonymous, and they are all worded very similarly. I was upset when the first one or two appeared, but I don't give them any attention now. Anyone who is in any way neutral, and reads one of these articles, and spends two minutes doing some research like on Google, will see the truth of it anyway. The thing about this Rennie Davis article was that I did not invite him, knew nothing about it, and never even responded in the thread! (Never mind, I am promoted to 'leader of the ex-premies'! I want proper respect from all of you now!! Ha!) -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
Modified by Mike Finch at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 09:34:18
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Thanks for the explanation, Mike, that's good to know. This is the first one I've ever seen, so I'm glad you're taking it in stride. I'm used to the hate group name-calling too, but every so often it still shocks me, like it did this morning.
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That is one thing I have never understood. They talk about removing the Indian stuff from the cult as if that is desirable and it was something about M being from India that made it a cult. I have never understood that. There are lots of cults and many of them are bible based western ones. Some of the worst ones in fact. I think all the ideas about removing the Indian stuff to make it not a cult came from M and premies. Taking away baragons, Mahatmas, Darshan and Arti in the west all make them fly more under the radar, but it doesn't make it less cult like.
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Heck, I hang out with more Indians (asian indians, that is) than I ever did as a premie. In fact, the premie view (both now and then) is pretty skewed when it comes to their culture.I love the parts of their culture that they have brought over here. Nice folks...... As you said, the only people that seem to have an aversion to things Indian are premies, themselves. They have completely removed the cultural influence, as far as I can tell. In fact, it would appear that M himself "hates" his own culture, since he has done such a thorough job of removing any semblence of same from his life. For those who might not know this, but are reading these posts, M IS Indian, ya know! So my question would be, why does he hate his own culture so much?
Modified by NAR at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 11:03:04
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I guess it just goes to show how confused I was and an unlit match rotting vegetable BUT.... I used to enjoy singing Arti esp with the arti tray and all the little rituals that went along with it. I liked learning words in Hindi too. I liked Holi, especially before it became the cannon blasting thing. I liked taking off my shoes in the ashram. Darhsan, on the other hand, my memories of are not so fond, but I think that is because I often did not have the blissed out experience I expected to have and felt sort of shameful about it. I don't think as premies might have you think, that kissing feet in a darshan line is akin to an american handshake either. Yes, Rawats attitude toward his own culture ( at least in the West ) seems akin to OJs being black when he needs to be. However, he seems to be ok with being Indian when he goes to India?
Modified by Susan at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 12:17:49
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Rajeshwar was, to some degree at least, "real." At least it would seem so...... because, in any Indian household to which I have ever been invited (quite a few), "meeting without eating is cheating!"So I did pick up a little "real" indian culture from a few of the folks in the cult
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DarshanFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia- Darshan is a Sanskrit and Hindu (also used to some extent in Urdu) term meaning sight (in the sense of an instance of seeing something or somebody), vision, apparition, or a glimpse. It is most commonly used for visions of the divine; that is, of a god or a very holy person or artifact. We could have a "darshan" of the deity in the temple (at the gross level) or have a "darshan" in that inward eye of a light or awareness (at a subtle plane). Sudarshan means a glimpse of the "self".
- In India people will travel hundreds of kilometres for the darshan, the look, of a holy man or woman because this look is believed to confer blessings. Conversely, looks of anger or envy are widely feared.
- "Darshan" means Seeing, derived from the root drsh= "to see" (compare Greek derkomai). To see with reverence and devotion. The term is used specifically for beholding highly revered people with the intention of inwardly contacting and receiving their grace and blessings. "By doing darshan properly a devotee develops affection for God, and God develops affection for that devotee."
- In Indian culture, the touching of the feet (pranâm or charaòasparsh) is a show of respect and it is often an integral part of darshan. Children do touch the feet of their family elders while people of all ages will bend to touch the feet of a great guru or the icon of a Hindu demigod (angel) or a form of God (such as Ram or Krishna).
- Vedanta darshan is also the philosophy of life as revealed in the Upanishads
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SNIP:Of all the ideas we get from Asia in general and India in particular, one that seems the most bizarre when seen from the vantage point of Western civilization is the archetype of the guru. The word, guru, has entered English as a term for any expert. But in the context of Hinduism, the Guru can be conceived of as greater than God. Here we have spent centuries getting rid of slavery, and the oppressive totalitarian nature of the feudal system, and along comes a man from a village in India (and a new one arrives every couple of weeks) and he claims that he is the Lord of the Universe or Or the One True Master of the Age. And by the way, we are all his slaves. The greatest possible thing you could do with your life is to serve Him. The worst thing you could ever do with your life is to displease Him. And once you get the idea of a guru in your head, you start to feel that even the Kingdom of Heaven is owned by him, and you have to be aligned with him to travel to visit your soul. He is cop, priest, pope, Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit, all in one. People get the feeling that the guru says, "Oh, by the way, you know that inner life thing? Well, I OWN IT. Also, I OWN YOU. If you want to have one glimmer of inner peace, YOU MUST OBEY ME." Gurus from Asia can believe this utterly, with no ironic distance, in a way that would be impossible for a sane American. A guru is a Godfather of the inner world. If you want to travel in your own inner space, you have to pay him homage. If you want to think a different thought, you have to ask him for permission. If you want to get married, you have to get his blessing. Whether you are coming or going, you owe them something – money, service, devotion. ENDSNIP http://www.lorinroche.com/page8/page19/page19.html
Related link: Full article here: http://www.lorinroche.com/page8/page19/page19.html
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I thought the analogies to help understand how a guru thinks, toward the end, were extremely good.
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Nevertheless, it made many true points. I found it some time ago when I googled on the statement "Guru is greater than God" which continues to sound outrageous to me. If you want to hear what persons with common sense think of this statement then you can ask for example your colleagues at work. I did so in a neutral way to non-Muslims. The reaction was not very positive. Andries
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the author has a pretentious attitude that puts me off. But toward the second half I was glad I kept reading because a lot of it was relevant to my own experiences.
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Well, common sense is all well and good, but have you asked Hindus what they think? As far as historical fact is concerned (and that's quite far!), this poster is evidence of what "Guru" Maharaj Ji once claimed: 
Modified by cq at Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 10:06:37
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Forgive me, though....... my mind went off the deep end for a second.... I could have sworn (for about 2 seconds) that you said, ".....I liked taking off my clothes in the ashram....." when you wrote "shoes."Although, I knew some "sisters" who I would...... NO NO NO! My mind...... such a naughty, naughty monkey!
Modified by NAR at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 14:25:03
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I liked taking off my shoes in the ashram.
It's normal in Latvia, and in Scandinavian countries, to remove your outdoor footwear inside, even when visiting in someone else's house.
I don't think as premies might have you think, that kissing feet in a darshan line is akin to an american handshake either.
Touching someone's feet in India is a sign of holding the other person in high regard, but not kissing them.
John.
Modified by JHB at Wed, Mar 29, 2006, 14:29:31
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Occasionally, I will see wives touch their husband's feet in those traditional Indian families I know. It is more often seen with the children touching their parent's feet...... BUT I NEVER saw any of them KISS the feet..... not a single time!Heck, I take my shoes off when going into my house and many others, as well. I don't want to track dirt into a friend's house, that's for sure.
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I believe the point that Jossi et al are trying to make is that yes DLM was once a cult and premies did think Prem Rawat was a divine incarnation but that was all a mistaken view by them based on the Indian religious culture in which it was first presented to them. They are saying there is nothing wrong with that per se but that Prem Rawat’s Knowledge is in no way based upon that culture and once he realized that most of the 70’s premies were wrong in their understanding of him he began to remove the Indian “trappings” and promote the Knowledge and his role in that in a culturally neutral way. Therefore any criticism that anybody makes about Rawat’s early behaviour and promotion can be placed at the feet of the students and not at the feet of the Master.
Of course those of us with a long term involvement in DLM/EV know that this is only superficially true. Only the superficial trappings have changed and the actual cult relationships and beliefs are still current though to be fair most premies will no longer use words like Lord of the Universe though they still act as if he is. As they have considerably more resources than those ex-premies who maintain enough interest to attempt to publicise the reality of the cult and as intelligence and commitment in no way ensure that a premie will become disenchanted and as there are no ethical constraints on some premies when they are serving the Inspirational Speaker they often promote this message in a sophisticated and persuasive manner.
Fortunately for the good of those small parts of mankind that hear Rawat’s message he is such an unattractive figure, physically and intellectually that his Message of Peace continues to fall upon stony ground.
There were many Indian gurus and Indian religious groups that were able to promote themselves in the West beginning in the 60's and what Jossi et al never mention is that if it was Indian religion and spirituality you were after these other groups were far more attractive in that most of them had the Hindu belief in inclusivitiy ie my religion doesn't negate your religion, my guru and your guru both can have spiritual power and their practices can benefit. DLM didn't fit into this mode because there was only one true Satguru and that was Prem Rawat following on from his father Hans Rawat. That is the major reason (apart from the fact that what DLM was preaching was bullshit) that DLM didn't fit into the wider spiritual counter-culture of the time.
I quite enjoy Eastern religions but DLM was a pretty poor one and like most everybody else I became involved because I knew someone else who did and they "gave me satsang" and one thing led to another ...
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Rawat snubs his nose at the Hindu religion and all other religions that practice vegetarianism. He made it out like, oh, you can eat meat now (i.e. eat meat now), so now we're not a cult. As if that's one thing that made it a cult. Not getting enough protein (which I didn't in the ashram) is a problem, but plenty of vegetarians get plenty of protein and nutrition, and are normal people. The world's record holder in the bench press and Carl Lewis are vegetarian (and also Alicia Silverstone ). There are many secular people who are vegetarians, there are other reasons than religious ones, like protecting the environment, health, and compassion for animals.
One thing I find quite disturbing is the report of animal sacrifice to the idol Rawat. That's what it really is, they kill the fatted calf in a ritualistic manner.
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Are you saying that eating meat is an animal sacrifice to Rawat or is it something else? I don't get it. Also, like meat eating, I was sad to learn that when Rawat started openly meat eating he also became an open cigarette smoker. Its sad that premies copy Rawat as I heard a lot of premies not only copied his smoking but his brand. Very sad because a lot of the premies were interested in being healthy and smoking is such a terrible thing for your health. I also wish I had stayed a vegetarian now, I did for a long time after I left....l was one from 13 to about 30. I think it was healthier for me but I can't blame Rawat for my meat eating only my husband!
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Back in the early 90's(??) I occasionally went to Amaroo to help plant trees even though I was long gone from the cult. It seemed like the majority of premies hanging around there "doing service" were smoking cigarettes. They congregated in an area for smokers where you could just about walk over the butts without getting dirt on your feet. It irritated and horrified me so much that to this day I'll use any mention of the subject to say it again and I just have.
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"The
details of Maharaji's 'campsite' are kept from premies:
'they wouldn't understand', according to a senior aide. His
barbeque area, according to one of the few premies to have
seen it, is 'like a command centre at NASA', with
electronically controlled grills which rise
hydraulically.
The
meat for Maharaji's barbeque comes from a calf chosen by
premies as 'the one with the nicest nature' of the herd, and
is massaged before being slaughtered, to ensure maximum
tenderness. The wood for the barbecue is stacked, with
excruciating neatness, over several hours - including a
heart-shaped hollow in the middle of the pile." From A Little Somethink
Modified by G at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 07:53:07
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reminds one of the temple in Jerusalem, and the people buying animals for slaughter from the money-changers, then taking their kill home for dinner.then Jesus allegedly interfered with this lucrative bloody business, and the cult pharisees prevailed on the Romans, who didn't want any trouble or upheaval. In this case, there's the calf ritually prepared for slaughter by the devotees and burned upon Dr. No's space age grills for consumption by the Master of consumption. The high priest waits while the victim is led up the pyramid to the altar of fire. Then his knife strikes and the victim's throat slashed, and the priest places the freshly cut-out heart in the altar's recess for tender roasting. Then the priest devours the heart of his gourmand delight, his fingers dripping streams of blood. How 'civilized', this quaint cruel practice of slaughtering animals and devouring them... as presided over by the Lard himself. Perhaps he is actually anti-Hindu, untouchable. He should read David Lane's "Why I Don't Eat Faces," for starters. Then, some diet and nutrition books. Oh, I forgot, he doesn't read books. Remember?
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Sorry Mick, I have to part company with you here. Cattle are food! Soybeans, fish, foul and cattle are alive and all deserve respect...... and they are all food. BTW, roasted heart doesn't drip blood, unless it is very, very rare. No, don't want a vegan backlash........ it's just that I see food as what it is. On the other hand, I can easily buy the argument that M is a hypocrite. For all the insistence that premies must be vegetarian (and HE DID insist), no matter what the health consequences were for some folks, he now says it's ok. All of his ignorant statements about seeds being "dead" and unfertilized eggs being "alive" are now moot...... maybe he got an edumacation, finally? I guess the old saw about vegetarians sip water while predators lap water go down the proverbial drain, too, eh? This is too funny for words, don't you think? David Lane is just being silly. The fact that you see a pattern that looks like a face doesn't make it a face. I saw the madonna in my shower curtain, does that mean I should worship my shower curtain? Choose your food....... but don't try to demonize the food of others. Soybean farming (and all farming in fact) rapes the land worse than anything other than maybe strip mining it. It isn't "natural" to stip the land of the native plants (and insects) to produce food for YOU! See what I mean? I can demonize vegans, too. You waster of wild lands! Hunter/gatherer..... that's the life
Modified by NAR at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 12:48:37
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You don't want to get into a carnivore vs vegan argument with me.Meat eating causes a lot of diseases. Most nutritionists and doctors advise eating fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and you can get all your protein without meat. Animals are sentient beings with more discernible consciousness than plants. And you don't have to kill the apple tree to get the fruit, same for a tomato and tomato plant, etc. I find it amusing that carnivores have no compassion for animals but will use the ridiculous argument about soybeans, for instance. Raising animals for slaughter wastes vast resources - like land (including public lands in the USA), water, and the huge amounts of grains consumed. Killing animals for food, and even when we don't need to any more - is cruel. The human race should evolve. Meat-eating is devolutionary. Hunting is NOT a sport. The target doesn't shoot back (deer, ducks, etc.). [Hunter's false "kindness argument": Oh yeah, it helps to keep the animal populations down. So, maybe war is good, too, for keeping the human populations down - kill 'em before they multiply.] Now, hunting a Siberian tiger while beating a pan with a stick in the thick bush might be a sport to watch. You go into the supermarket, the meat is all wrapped up in plastic, so impersonalized - not the head of the animal staring at you, and its guts hanging out, screaming bloody murder. The labels read: ground beef, pork rind, sirloin, rump steak, drumstick, breast, cutlet, etc. Instead, they should read: murdered baby calf, chicken with its head cut off, baby lamb with slit throat cut up into little pieces, etc.
Instead of "Meat," the signs should say "Flesh&Blood" Dept, and on microwave ovens, and fridge storage sections. Let's have some truth in advertising. NOt this Bush-Cheney type carnivore doubletalk - a "kinder and gentler" genocide. So, yeah, I think hunting is basically for insecure macho morons with tiny penises, tinier brains, toting big guns, and unless one lives near the Arctic Circle, meat-eating is both unevolved and stupid, too. I am one person who went veggie, and never went back. I buy organic local produce, avoid GMO soy and corn products etc., eat only vegetarian food, no fish, no eggs, eat almond cheese, drink organic fruit juice and wines, and patronize restaurants that feature veggie and vegan entrees. I certainly don't advocate animal liberation violence etc. But I'm a very hardcore vegetarian, when it comes to a life philosophy and practice. I don't like even killing bugs, unless I can't catch them and put them outside. I avoid leather, except for a pair of shoes and a belt. Plastic or cloth shoes just don't cut it through seasons of snow, rain, and mud I found from experience. No leather in my house or car, no animal heads on the walls. My fridge has 'veggies' , no meat section. Honestly, I eat great food - Italian pastas, Indian curries, Thai vege dishes, garbanzo beans cooked Lebanese style, wholesome Mexican recipes, organic kettle-cooked potato chips, Chinese veges, organic pale and amber ales, fresh nuits and fruits, fresh sweet corn, flaxseed bread, zucchini almond cheese lasagna, Ezekiel sprouted-wheat calzone, beautiful tomatoes from the vines, lots of organic herb teas and organic green tea. I try to be very conscientious about these things, reading every label, choosing food suppliers, and also farms. I slough off each week, though, and buy a non-cheese organic vegetarian whole grain pizza, and also air pop organic popcorn with some melted Flax Smart Balance on top w/ a dash of sea salt, sometimes when watching a DVD. And regarding war, violence, guns, "an eye for eye makes the whole world blind." - Gandhi Being a vegetarian is a personal life affirmation, for me. I don't keep animals as "pets," either. There are already too many neglectful absentee pet owners with their barking dogs outside - annoying their neighbors - and cats tearing up gardens and spraying on people's doorsteps, anyway.
I wake up to the sounds of birds, and go to bed hearing the frogs and crickets. I think zoos are life imprisonment for innocent animals, and resent having my taxes extorted to support zoos, the cattle industry, commercial fishing, etc. - and for wars, of course. So, yeah, after 35 years - if there's one thing I personally believe in, it's a vegetarian - virtual vegan - lifestyle, and practicing a pacifist lifestyle by extension, besides food. Anything else, at least for me, would be uncivilized. "Animals are my friends, and I don't eat my friends."
- George Bernard Shaw
Modified by Mick at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 16:46:37
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Mick, although we should probably carry on over ont he non-rawat forum, let me answer to a few of your assertions:1. Meat eating causes a lot of diseases. Which diseases, specifically? Please quote scientific resources, not new age. 2. Most nutritionists and doctors advise eating fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and you can get all your protein without meat. According to what percentage of REAL doctors (that is a real MD, not one of the others)? "Most" MD's do NOT recommend vegan as a diet, except under very special circumstances. My doctor, a fairly young one at that (so he isn't old-school) recommended my diet and meat is part of that diet. My body fat, by the way, is five (5) percent and I am in my 50's. 3. Who said hunting was a "sport?" You have never heard those words out of my mouth or in print that is attributable to me. I don't think of it as sport, no do any of my hunting partners. It is a way of life, it is a way to participate in natural processes. However, I DO hunt and I do field dress the animals I take myself. I don't butcher them, personally, not because I am unwilling but because I don't have all the porper tools for doing so AND I need a certified facility so that a portion of what I hunt can go to the hungry (food banks, etc). So if I take a large animal, none of it will ever go to waste. That is where my organic meat comes from..... I take it! 4. The fact that you see "me" as some sort of macho guy tells me you haven't got a clue as to the REAL nature of hunting, hunter or the prey. If you think that having a firearm in the wilderness guarantees you an animal (just becasue they don't shoot back), you are not thinking critically or correctly. I am very good at hunting and my marksmanship is, literally, world renown in competitive shooting circles (I held 2 long distance world records for two years running at 800, 900 and 1000 yards). One record was with iron sights and the other with telescopic sights. YES, I shoot 1000 yards WITHOUT a telescopic sight. The point being, if I can see it, I can "get it." But does that mean I take long shots at animals? NO! Does that mean I come home with an animal every time I go out? NO! I succeed a little more often than most (my average, depending upon species, is about 30 percent). Most SERIOUS hunters are successful about 15 - 20 percent of the time. That means that the VAST MAJORITY of serious hunters in this state come home empty handed most of the time. These animals, unlike what you apparently think, are not stupid and they don't just walk around waiting for ANY predator to nab them, whether by claw or firearm. 5. I don't advocate shooting, trapping or in any way harming or molesting (to include eco-tours) any non-food animal. If you aren't going to eat it, leave it alone! Keep your distance and don't friggin' feed them! I've seen more eco-idiots (well, they were wearing the obligatory t-shirts, anyway) in the parks trying to hand feed deer than I care to mention. I have them arrested whenever I witness one (45 to date and counting). I do have pets.... they aren't food. 6. Animals are wonderful, they are beautiful, they are alot of things, but they aren't my "friends" unless they happen to be a pet. That "friends" attitude is what drives people to do the aforementioned hand-feeding activity. They are wild animals that are deserving of our respect and DISTANCE. They are NOT our "friends." 7. If animals are as sentient as you seem to think they are, then why does a simple one inch grating stop a cow (and many other animals) from crossing it? Why can't they "reason" their way out of that predicament? Why can't they "think" their way around the problem? All they have to do is walk across the grating...... it's a no-brainer for us, why not for them if they can think the way some folks seem to think they can? 8. Alive is alive and dead is dead. Plants "deserve to live" as much as any of us do. Remember, we share 50 percent of our dna with a banana. But, evolution dealt us a hand that permits us to use tools to gather food. Simple as that! If I can eat it, it is food, unless I decide otherwise. 9. Yes, hunting is required for the survival of the larger species like deer and elk in most states. I would recommend that you read some wildlife biology books (the real text books) to get a handle on the reality. Game and Fish folks in most states are highly trained wildlife biologists and are well aware of the realities of the wilderness and what is required to keep things in balance. I recommend that you speak with them, Mick. 10. Oh, and I did notice that you flat forgot to speak to the deforestation that has occurred for millenia just for farming. That eco-friendly earth-rape that goes on. Ok, that's enough! Really, we should take this to the other site, I guess........ Oh, and Mick, I don't mind you being a vegan...... that is your call. But you aren't....... you really aren't "holier-than-thou" or more progressive due to veganism. That would be my point. Nor do I think I am superior to you in any way due to my particular dietary decisions. BTW, do you cook your vege's? I don't! I prefer them raw. Oh, one more thing, in the wild, I show as much respect to the flora as I do to the fauna. You see, I really DO respect the plants just as much as the animals. I watch where I put my feet and am careful to do as little damage as I possibly can, at all times. How about you? It's friggin' food, dude! It's not "spiritual" and it isn't something that will earn you nirvana...... it's just food!
Modified by NAR at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 16:50:27
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The top 10 reasons to go vegetarian. Drum roll (but hold the drumsticks), please:
10. You’ll be able to defend your SUV habit by pointing out that producing a single hamburger patty takes enough fossil fuel to drive a small car 20 miles and enough water for 17 showers.
9. You’ll cut your risk of heart attack by more than half so you won’t have to spend six weeks in bed watching Survivor.
8. No guilt at the sudden realization that your food used to have a mom.
7. E. coli, salmonella, and mad cow disease will all be things of "Christmas Past."
6. No more plus-size shops, meal- replacement drinks, and thighs with their own zoning regulations. The American Dietetic Association states that "vegetarians, especially vegans, often have weights that are closer to desirable weights than do nonvegetarians."
5. No need to worry about chicken heads (or other body parts) showing up in your take-out order.
4. Grilled portobello mushrooms. (Enjoy delicious vegetarian recipes)
3. Your libido will take on massive proportions. Eating meat can cause impotence because it clogs the arteries going to all your organs, not just to your heart. (Try PETA’s tantalizing Veggie Viagra recipes here.)
2. Whose team would you rather be on—vegetarian tennis great Martina Navratilova’s or Dave "I found the beef and it’s in my coronary artery" Thomas’?
1. One word: haggis.
----------------------------------------
Reasons To Be A Vegetarian
Reprinted from The New York Times, June 20, 1989
World Hunger
Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 60 million
Human beings in America: 243 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 99
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16
Environment
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat free diet: 50 times more.
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds.
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. house cat.
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound hamburger: 55 sq ft.
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year.
Also cattle contribute to global warming by being one of the biggest sources of carbon dioxide and methane gases.
Cancer
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times.
For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times.
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.
Natural Resources
Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: Livestock portion
Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer.
Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2,500
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: $35 a pound.
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak if water was no longer subsidized: $89
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260.
Barrels of oil imported into the U.S. daily: 6.8 million.
Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5
Percentage from least efficient plant food: 32.8
Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33
Cholesterol
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 25 hours
Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds.
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50%
Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15%
Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: "normal"
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is "normal": 50%
Antibiotics
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
Pesticides
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by dairy products: 23
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55
Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating: 35 times higher
What USDA tells us: meat is inspected
Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxins and chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004
Ethical
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 500,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with the highest rate of on-the-job injury in the U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Cost to render animal unconscious with "captive bolt pistol" before slaughter: 1 cent
Reason given by meat industry for not using "captive bolt pistol": too expensive.
Survival
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
Last sighting of T-Rex: 100,000,000 B.C.
-------------------------------------------
Ten Reasons To Be A Vegetarian
Hunger:
Number of people worldwide who will die as a result of malnutrition this year: 20 million.
Number of people who could be adequately fed using land freed if Americans reduced
their intake of meat by 10%: 100 million.
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80.
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95.
How frequently a child dies as a result of malnutrition: every 2.3 seconds.
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 40,000.
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 250.
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56.
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16.
Environmental:
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more . Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75. Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85.
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million. Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 sq. feet. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year.
Cancer:
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared to less than
once a week: 3.8 times. For women who eat eggs daily compared to once a week: 2.8 times. Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times. Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.
Cholesterol:
Most common cause of death in the U.S.: heart attack.
How frequently a heart attack kills in the U.S.: every 45 seconds.
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent.
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent.
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent
Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl.
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is
210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent.
Natural Resources:
User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: livestock production.
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of wheat: 25.
Gallons of water needed to produce a pound of California beef: 5,000.
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet:13.
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260.
Calories of fossil fuel expended to get 1 calory of protein from beef: 78.
To get 1 calory of protein from soybeans: 2.
Antibiotic:
Ingredients: Any one of our instant noodles, fresh vegetables (if you don't have fresh
veggies handy, then our Just Corn and Just Veggies are just as good), Roasted Seaweed (optional), Wei-I Best Grade Laver Ro Su (bacon bits) (optional) and any of our frozen gourmet.
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55.
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13.
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91.
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban.
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support.
Pesticide:
Fewer than 1 out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical
residues.
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99.
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8.
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal
products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher.
Ethics:
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000.
Occupation with the highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker.
Occupation with the highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker.
Spiritual Consciousness:
Food is the source of the body's hemistry, and what we ingest affects our consciousness, emotions and experiential pattern. If we want to live in higher consciousness, in peace and happiness and love for all creatures, then we should
consider not eating meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs.
Karmic Consequences:
Major religions around the world such as Buddhism or Hinduism teach that all of our actions including our choice of food have karmic consequences. By involving oneself in the cycle of inflicting injury, pain and death, even indirectly by eating other creatures, one must in the future experience in equal measure the suffering caused.
Vegetarian quotes:
Animals are not food. People at VegeCyber.
May all that have life be delivered from suffering. -- Buddha.
For hundreds of thousands of years the stew in the pot has brewed hatred and resentment that is difficult to stop. If you wish to know why there are disasters of armies and weapons in the world, just listen to the piteous cries from the slaughterhouse in the midnight. Poem by a Chinese monk.
What is it that should trace the insuperable line? ... The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? --Jeremy Bentham.
Animals are my friends--and I don't eat my friends. -- George Bernard Shaw.
If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian.
We feel better about ourselves and better about the animals knowing we're not contributing to their pain. -- Paul and Linda McCartney.
Thou shall not kill. First of Ten Commandments (Christian) and First of Five Precepts
(Buddhist).
Martin Luther King taught us all nonviolence. I was told to extend nonviolence to the mother and her calf. -- Dick Gregory.
I would not eat if no one kills the animal ?said the meat eater?I would not kill if no one
eats the animal?said the butcher?/font>
Homer: You mean you're not going to eat BACON? Lisa: No, Dad.
Homer: Or SAUSAGE or PORK CHOPS or HAM? Lisa: Dad, those all come from the same animal.
Homer: Oh, suuuuure, Lisa ... some magic animal. -- Homer and Lisa Simpson.
How can you eat anything with eyes! -- Will Kellogg.
I'm stopped. I'll never eat another burger. -- Oprah Winfrey.
Once I was fishing and caught the hook in the fish's eye. That was the last time I ate a killed creature. -- Janet Barkas, editor of Grove Press.
The world's environment can no longer handle beef. -- Jeremy Rifkin, author of Beyond Beef.
Many things made me become a vegetarian, among them the higher food yield as a solution to world hunger. -- John Denver.
Cruelty to animals can become violence to humans. -- Ali MacGraw.
Compassion is the foundation of everything positive, everything good. If you carry the power of compassion to the marketplace and the dinner table, you can make your life really count. -- Rue McClanahan.
I grew up in cattle country--that's why I became a vegetarian. Meat stinks, for the animals, the environment, and your health. -- K.D. Lang.
All creation has the same right to life. -- Sun Bear and Jaya Bear.
I would not want to get to know a pig very well if I intended to eat him. -- Pat Leigh.
A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if he eats meat he
participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. -- Leo Tolstoy.
Whenever we cause suffering or death to any other being, we cause suffering to the Great Life Force. -- Shik Po Chih.
I went snorkeling and noticed how gently the fish welcomed us into their world ... as
compared to the violence with which we welcomed them into ours. I became a vegetarian. -- Syndee Brinkman.
If any kid ever realized what was involved in factory farming, they would never touch meat again. I was so moved by the intelligence, sense of fun and personalities of the animals I worked with on "Babe" that by the end of the film I was a vegetarian. -- James Cromwell.
I have reached zero tolerance for the cruelty against our animal brothers. If we are to nurture our culture, let's begin with the animals who have been nothing but our beasts of burden for so long. -- Riki Rockett.
Items containing raw or uncooked egg should be avoided so as not to contact a certain strain of salmonella. (It used to be thought that only broken eggs could transmit salmonella ... now it is known that the mother passes salmonella through the egg.) (There is more incidence of food poisoning from eggs than from meat, fish, or milk.) -- Jane Snow, food editor of the Beacon Journal.
To his butler: Please put the ladybug outside without harming her. -- Winston Churchill.
Since visiting the abbatoirs [slaughterhouses] of South France, I have stopped eating meat. -- Vincent Van Gogh.
Thousands of animals [now billions] are butchered every day without a shadow of remorse. It cries vengeance upon all the human race. -- Romain Rolland.
More and more we realize that a vegetarian diet is a good idea. -- Dr. Edward Martin, head of Dept. of Defense Health.
My respect and empathy towards animals includes sea dwellers too - from dolphins to fish to lobsters. So, of course, I wouldn't dream of eating them. -- Alexandra Paul.
As custodians of the planet it is our responsibility to deal with all species with kindness, love and compassion. That these animals suffer through human cruelty is beyond understanding. Please help to stop this madness. -- Richard Gere.
We stopped eating meat many years ago. During the course of a Sunday lunch we
happened to look out of the kitchen window at our young lambs playing happily in the fields.
Glancing down at our plates, we suddenly realized we were eating the leg of an animal who had until recently been playing in a field herself. We looked at each other and said: "Wait a minute, we love these sheep - they're such gentle creatures. So why are we eating them?" It was the last time we ever did. -- Paul and Linda McCartney.
The other members of the National Football League say I'm in the minority ... but they are. A majority of the world is vegetarian. -- Former Pittsburgh Steeler and New York Giant football player Glenn Scolnick.
Some people are still going to want to eat meat ... we do agree, though, that vegetarianism is a healthier diet. --David Stroud of the American Meat Institute.
For many years the media have been afraid of the Goliath power of the meat industry. (But David is coming!) -- Pegeen Fitzgerald of WOR TV and Radio in NY.
I spoke often in Congress against the war in Vietnam and commented on Congresspersons hiding from the reality of war by saying, "Many eat the meat, but few go to the slaughterhouse". I said it so often I became a vegetarian. -- Rep. Andrew Jacobs, formerly of Indianapolis.
In all the round world of Utopia there is no meat. There used to be, but now we cannot
stand the thought of slaughterhouses. And it is impossible to find anyone who will hew a dead ox or pig. I can still remember as a boy the rejoicings over the closing of the last slaughterhouse. -- H. G. Wells (A Modern Utopia).
Of what use are all your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of the roasted carcasses of rams and of the fat of fattened beasts. I take no pleasure in the blood of calves, lambs and goats. ... When you spread out your hands, I close My eyes to you; despite however much you pray, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood! Wash yourselves clean! Put away your misdeeds from before My eyes and stop doing evil. -- Isaiah 1:11, 15-16.
Whatever you do unto the least of my brothers, you do it unto me. -- Matthew 25:40.
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. -- Albert Einstein.
I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals. -- Henry David Thoreau.
The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of "real food for real people," you'd better live real close to a real good hospital. -- Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.
People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for
continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times. -- Isaac Singer.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. -- Mohandas Gandhi.
If [man] is not to stifle his human feelings, he must practice kindness towards animals, for he who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals. -- Immanuel Kant.
I am not interested to know whether vivisection produces results that are profitable to the human race or doesn't ... The pain which it inflicts upon unconsenting animals is the basis of my enmity toward it, and it is to me sufficient justification of the enmity without looking further. -- Mark Twain.
One day the world will look upon research upon animals as it now looks upon research on human beings. -- Leonardo Da Vinci.
Humans are the only hunters who kill when not hungry. -- Steven Spielberg.
The medical argument for animal testing doesn't stand up. Even if it did, I don't think we should kill other species. We think we're so much better; I'm not sure we are. I tell people, "We've beaten into submission every animal on the face of the Earth, so we are the clear winners of whatever battle is going on between the species. Couldn't we be generous?" I really do think it's time to get nice. No need to keep beating up on them. I think we've got to show that we're kind. -- Paul McCartney.
You're thinking I'm one of those wise-ass California vegetarians who is going to tell you that eating a few strips of bacon is bad for your health. I'm not. I say it's a free country and you should be able to kill yourself at any rate you choose, as long as your cold dead body is not blocking my driveway. -- Scott Adams (writer of "Dilbert" .
If you could see or feel the suffering, you wouldn't think twice. Give back life. Don't eat
meat. -- Kim Basinger.
I haven't bought any leather articles for a very long time. My ideal is to be able to avoid
all animal products, in food as well as clothing. -- Martina Navratilova.
Forty years ago on the set of "Gunsmoke" I read the book The Holy Science. Since then I have not eaten meat. -- Dennis Weaver.
Being around all the animals in the film Dr. Doolittle made me one too. -- Samantha Eggar.
GE is the biggest polluter of the Hudson ... years ago they killed all the fish dumping
millions of pounds of PCBs into our waterways. Now let's make them pay for the cleanup. -- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
So you are the people tearing down the Brazilian rainforest and breeding cattle. --Prince Philip, to McDonald's of Canada.
The awful cruelty and terror to which tens of thousands of animals killed for human food are subjected in traveling long distances by ship and rail and road to the slaughterhouses of the world. God disapproves of all cruelty ... whether to man or beast. The occupation of slaughtering animals is brutalizing to those who are required to do the work. ... I believe this matter is well worthy of the serious consideration of Christian leaders. -- Mrs. Booth and General Bramwell Booth of the Salvation Army.
It is a surprisingly close progression from hunting animals to hunting and torturing people... catching and lynching blacks or smoking out Jews during the Holocaust. -- Aviva Cantor writing in Ms. magazine.
Why not just put sterilization hormones in the deer food rather than killing them? --Dan
Ryan, Youngstown talk show host.
I have no intention of eating a fish from the East River. They're not safe to eat. --Mayor White of Cleveland.
Arson and cruelty to animals are two of three childhood warning signs regarding the
potential to be a serial killer. -- John Douglas, profiler of serial killers for the FBI, upon
whom the FBI character in "Silence of the Lambs" was based.
P.S.
Hey, dude, I am an environmentalist - so you needn't preach to me about the forest, and the plants, etc. The Game and Fish wildlife people have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo - and their jobs.
Meanwhile, to you animals (except for your pets, of course) are "just food."
The Ted Nugent wing of humanity.
whatever...
I would rather respect the lives of these animals and leave them alone, instead of justifying killing them to eat. Animals are not just "friggin' food, dude" - to me.
I don't willfully or needlessly cause harm, suffering, death to other creatures. Nothing that swims, walks, or flies on the face of the earth. Nor do I eat them. Period.
If hunting and killing works for you, Cro-Magnon dude, Nar, then so be "it." That is your choice. I wouldn't advise taking Dick Cheney along, however.
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Thanks Mick!I really needed a great laugh and you provided it in spades. But just so you understand something...... I don't needlessly harm any animal. If they aren't going to be food, I leave them alone and enjoy their presence from afar (whatever distance they choose). Also, you have a 60's outlook on the G&F folks. They actually take care of ALL species, whether game or not. If hunitng were to stop tomorrow, none of their jobs would be in any jeopardy. Don't go there....... the Director and Asst Director for the state of AZ are personal friends of mine. I know whereof I speak on this issue. I DO have to answer to one quote you gave: "...Why not just put sterilization hormones in the deer food rather than killing them? --Dan Ryan, Youngstown talk show host...." That is the stupidest and cruelest thing I have ever had someone put in print next to Mien Kampf! What an a**hole that guy is! Does he realize the potential impact that would have? No, of course not because he is a total moron and probably knows next to nothing if it wasn't taught in Bambi! Most of the quotes you put up there are from ignorant hollywood celebs. Most of those people never even went to college, much less graduated, so their opinions are just that and not something I would steer my life by. They are actors and actresses and singers...... they don't DO anything other than entertain us. They don't know HOW to DO anything other than entertain us. So you want to take dietary hints from people who have self-admitted eating disorders and whose lives are usually in such a state of flux that they can't tell up from down? Really? Are you sure? Some of the quotes you put up there are just ridiculous: "...8. No guilt at the sudden realization that your food used to have a mom...." So what? I hope it had a mom.... if it didn't, then it wouldn't be normal! I don't get emotionally attached to food! You will also note that the moms in question rarely give much more than a sidelong glance if their babies are killed. They try to protect, but once it is a lost cause, they just leave...... no burial, no grief. So, why should I think of them the way I think of my own mom? Moreover, other than the primates and a few other species with well-developed brains, the parenting is pretty basic and short. "...Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 99...." ehhhhhhhhhh, WRONG! No animal wastes 99 percent of the protein they eat. It is converted, as their vegetarian tracts werre intended to do. BTW, you DO know that no grain produces a complete protein, right? You have to be very careful to ensure that your protein intake is correct. I don't...... which seems odd, if we aren't supposed to eat meat, you'd think that we would have evolved to not require it in the exact proportions that meat provides...... must have been some silly genetic error, right? This was one of many "statistics" that you put up there that are wrong and/or aren't attributed (which makes them useless).
and the dumbest of the dumb celeb commentary, make mine a drum stick "....It is a surprisingly close progression from hunting animals to hunting and torturing people... catching and lynching blacks or smoking out Jews during the Holocaust. -- Aviva Cantor writing in Ms. magazine....." Sorry, that one was just assinine! I hunt, therefore I am a racist who caused or would cause the holocaust! What a total jacka** BTW, you DO know that Hitler was a vegetarian, right? Of course you do! And it hasd nothing to do with anything! Duhhh! Well, unless vegetarianism causes insanity...... but I don't see any connection there..... yet! But I have to admit, Mick...... they were 100 percent funny! More so because those same people actually believe this garbage. Hey, what did you think of the PETA fiasco? Nice people, taking all those puppies from a shelter (where puppies almost always find a good home) and instead, killing them and throwing the little carcasses into a dumpster..... now THAT's respect! I pray..... it's about the only thing I pray for, too, that those people get the absolute maximum sentence and that PETA is shutdown for that outrage! Please tell me that you don't associate yourself with that organization! Don't try to convince me that hasn't happened hundreds of time prior, either...... it will fall of deaf ears. People Ensuring the Torture of Animals has lost all credibility.
On a much lighter note (both figuratively and literally), you put some weight related stuff up in the quotes. Makes me think you don't know what 5 percent body fat means. My BP is 110/60, my heart rate is 55 bpm (I can still slow it down at will to 22 bpm for a limited time), my cholesterol, etc are all "low" and I run 5 miles every single day! Well, I have had to cut back to a little less running because I've beaten my knees to death over the years (retired military). I now run 5 days per week vice seven. In other words, I guess I am one of what you think is an exception. The only reason people are getting fat, my friend, has nothing to do with WHAT they are eating, it is the sedentary lifestyle. If they would get up and move around a little, that problem would cease. Exercise is the issue, not what they are eating. Cutting back on the carbs you won't use helps as well...... you DO know that your body doesn't store the fat that you eat, right? It is excess carbs that become fat.
Modified by NAR at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 18:58:19
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The only reason people are getting fat, my freind, has nothing to do with WHAT they are eating, it is the sentient lifestyle. Didja mean sedentary? 
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 18:07:00
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I guess I had sentient on the brain! Man....... But really, and I keep saying this, we should probably take this to the other site. I really like Mick...... he's fun to post with. I hope he doesn't take all this too seriously (except the PETA part). I cannot believe those hypocrites. But that is another story...... I like Mick! See? THAT is why we have "peer reviews"
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but not Twain, Einstein, Shaw, Da Vinci, me, and the other groovy heads...
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They were funny..... they would be even funnier if the Hollywood types were joking! But they are serious! Mick, gotta love ya! This was a fun little diversion
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1. Meat eating causes a lot of diseases. Which diseases, specifically? Please quote scientific resources,prostate cancer, for starters. read the AMA journals.
you wrote:
"It's friggin' food, dude! It's not "spiritual" and it isn't something that will earn you nirvana...... it's just food!" I write here: with choice comes accountability. You choose, you accept accountability - right or wrong. You seem to be evading accountability. You claim: "It's not "spiritual" and it isn't something that will earn you nirvana...... it's just food." If you are wrong/mistaken, then logically you shall incur consequences, i.e. 'accountability.' One can NOT claim to know, either way (as you have done). Hedge your bets... [That's just my advice, of course]
Modified by Mick at Thu, Mar 30, 2006, 23:15:57
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I don't believe in anything spiritual or eternal. I have no reason to do so, other than superstitions passed down from an earlier age. Those superstitions were, of course, a comfort to those who couldn't, yet, understand the physical universe. To them, it was a bit scarey. I can understand people, good people, filling in the gaps in their knowledge with something "supernatural." But, I honestly cannot do that anymore. Not that we know everything there is to know, but god's exclusive domain has certainly shrunk quite a bit, eh? The places where a god would be necessary have shrunk to ...... well, truth be told..... nothing! Why would I want to hedge my bets against a superstition?
I think eating meat is just fine. I didn't drop in here from outer space. I evolved here and I am a predator. Our physical makeup clearly indicates predator. We aren't the most physically powerful species, but we make up for that with highly evolved brains and opposable thumbs that permit us to create tools. As to the prostate cancer bit, meat eating has not been found to be linked to that. Do I think that growth hormones and other crap that has crept into our food chain might be linked? Yes, but meat itself, no. That is why I prefer to hunt for my meat. I have a pretty good idea that any exposure to pesticides and growth hormones in wild animals would be purely coincidental. Quite frankly, I have the same concern with vege's that I don't collect myself (and I don't)...... people "say" they are organically grown, but what does that mean "exactly?" See? I am a fair skeptic...... I do check and I do use as many organic foods, to include meat, eggs and fish, as I can. While this is certainly anecdotal, I think organic foods really taste better, too. In a blind taste test, I was able to pick out organic foods almost everytime. Strangely enough, the milk products were the most obvious. Maybe it is due to the care in processing or something else, but I'll be darned if it isn't uniformly better in flavor. Now, flax seed cereal........ and some of the others...... organic or not, they aren't that great
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Exactly, Nigel, exactly! Well done and thank you!"But it takes all sorts to make a world and - fair enough - if you don't like it, don't eat it…" That says it all. Actually, I DO like many of the foods that you seemed to dislike. I really like Tofu, Tahini, Miso...... I REALLY like miso. I treat it like vegemite and spread it on toast. I also like it as a soup. But it has to be real japanese miso..... the american varieties are just wrong. Most people, those who have never been to japan, don't seem to know how to make the soup properly, either. I know my house mum didn't have a clue, that's for sure! But, if I ate any food to the exclusion of all others, it would get boring fast. If people don't like meat or want to be associated with it, why do they insist on something called a "veggie BURGER?" Why a burger at all? Why do you want it to taste like meat and have it not be meat? And yes, veggie burgers are often made to taste like and have the consistency of their meat counterpart. Something to what you brought up, no doubt!
I actually DO visit the decent vegetarian restaurants when I want something different. You are quite right, we are omnivores and that should be obvious to anyone who knows the science involved. Why is it that we can accept pig (and bear) digestive organs, but could never use that of a cow or a wolf? The reasons should be biochemically obvious..... we ARE omnivores, in every sense of the word. That is why we can use pig (and bear, as it ends up) insulin and cannot use it from any non-omnivore source. Then there is this little anecdotal piece of evidence: While I sincerely made the attempt to be vegetarian (if not vegan) as a practicing premie for many years, I never got so sick in my life, or as often. Yeah, it was probably due to some imbalance due to malnutrition (we had to trust that mum was doing it right, after all). But, all I had to do to fix the problem was eat some meat..... that was the only difference. When my doctor said "eat meat, now," I followed his order and the improvement in my health was almost immediate. Again, just adding meat to my diet fixed ALL of the issues. I still ate everything else and still do. Preferably organic, too. But there ya go........
Modified by NAR at Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 11:42:27
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It's been said before that the premie guys were a skinny lot. But if you think about it they really were. I hardly remember any males who were not very thin. Now many of us sisters had a few extra pounds, but the brothers.... You wonder if that diet just couldn't deliver what is needed by the muscle growth of a young male. Having fed growing teen and young adult boys there is nothing quite so food depleting you can bring into a house.
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and I think you are right on the money!I was a really skinny guy. Funny, when I look in the mirror these days. Not overweight, by any stretch, but I certainly developed. When I was younger, my grandmother thought I had a hollow-leg. SHe wasn't kidding, either. I could pack away food like you wouldn't believe and not gain a single pound beyond what was necessary to barely keep me alive If you were a house mum, don't take offense at what I said above. I know ours tried really hard, but I don't think they realized that they were feeding "overgrown food processors" and, of course, they were new to the vegetarian world, too. I don't think they really knew how to make a balanced meal at the time. But, I really do (despite what I said in the post above) really remember them quite fondly. They were good people!
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I don't think I knew you I only lived in Miami as a premie. From 1975-1979 was when I was a premie, when I was 13-17 years old. I used to help the ashram housemothers cook for those skinny skinny boys though. My poor husband, I didn't start to eat, or even cook meat, until I was thirty or so. The first time I tried to make him a hamburger I thought the patty would sort of melt from an globular shape into a pattie as say, a cookie might. So he was quite amused to find my globe shaped hamburgers. Also, I think maybe we have chatted before here because you talk about hunting and my husband used to hunt a lot. He hasn't for years but I just can't imagine what my premie self might have thought about some of the decor in our living room- things he brought back from Africa and Mongolia. It's all about comprimise in a marraige sometimes! I also read with interest your battle with Wikipedia and your children's schools. I think it is great you are so involved with the education of your children. I like reading your posts.
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We might have run into each other....... at a program. I went to Orlando for HJ, if I remember correctly. I had lost touch with Juan for a bit and that was the first time we had gotten back together..... THAT is when I met my first ever rasta-premie (he had just flown in from da island, mahn!). Yup, it was Juan! Anyway, good to meet you and yes, we have certainly talked about hunting, I'm sure. Oh.... I don't usually have any desire to hang anything in my living room. I might make an exception someday, but I don't hunt trpohies. I'd rather take the animal that looks to be well fed and groomed. I guess you would know that since I hunt for food, not for other things
Susan, I will take you off the first-time-hamburger hook! I can best you! My mother-in-law, when she first married my father-in-law, had never had to cook a day in her life. They were on a budget, so hamburger was it for a little while. She asked, "How do you want your burger, honey?" He said something like medium or similar....... she proceeded to turn the pot up to medium BOIL! Yes..... I am NOT kidding, she fed him BOILED hamburger! It isn't a mistake, I didn't forget the "R" in BOIL!
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I agree with every word, Mike (oops, sorry, NAR). Like you, I had all sorts of non-specific stomach problems in the fifteen years I was a more-less-strict veggie. All cleared up the moment the kids arrived and the ex-missus and I decided we couldn't put them through all that self-denial. I think I wrote that Vegan Values piece to finally sort out my own head on the issue - look at some hard evidence and assuage my corrupted conscience. I was probably mostly ranting at my former self and the hand-me-down arguments I used to use to justify my world-view. Almost a cultic belief position in its own right, methinks. But I think the essay's too long - especially for non-exes, mostly because of that unedited nutritional lecture from M, but it's kind of just too tasty not to use...
Modified by Nigel at Sat, Apr 01, 2006, 13:06:15
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NAR, if you like miso so much, try this:
Mix about one part miso (brown rice is my favorite) to five or six parts tahini with a little hot water to make a nice paste. Add some parsley flakes for color, and spread it on crackers or rice cakes. Yum!!
I started making this back in my macrobiotic days and it really is a delicacy. It will keep in a jar in the fridge for several weeks.
Good discussion on meat eating/vegearianism.
Joy
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A variation on that is a sauce made by mixing tahini with tamari (soy sauce) & then watering it down to the required consistency. I only ever use it on avocados, whose essential tastelessness is magically transformed thereby, but I'm sure people who are more vegetarian than I am could think of other applications.
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Avocados' "tastelessness" is an excellent taste when just sprinkled with a smidgeon(SP?) of salt and few drops of lemon juice. That is all that is required to experience the exceedingly vivaceous secrets hidden within inside of the insides of the avocados(even though the former LOTU said that God made a mistake with the pip. Ha..expletive...ha) PS you may also like this : Take some hale(sp?) steam it, and then add a little tahini with a touch of soy sauce and mix well. That'll shake your colly-wobblers. Bon apetite Jethro
Modified by Jethro at Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 23:05:00
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I don't think so. They have a very fine and delicate flavor. But..... that doesn't alter the fact that you seem to have hit on a good topping for the occasional use. I use aloha shoyu, though. Spoiled by my days in the islands.
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I love the flavor of miso, but never thought of adding it to tahini.
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I like my teeth designed for gnashing and wailing!
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I love it! Were you ever "stationed" in DC or OR ?
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What is meant by "meat eating"? This usual connotes how meat is typically eaten by people nowadays, not eating the meat from animals in the wild, which is rather different. My main beef is with factory farms, not so much meat eating per se. Meat from factory farms is fattier, the fat is of poor quality, it has growth hormones and antibiotics added, and the animals suffer greatly while they are alive. Factory farms also cause a great deal of pollution and waste natural resources.
Reversing Heart Disease Through Diet
A sunless hell
Factory Farms
As for myself, I'm mainly vegetarian, although I do take fish oil supplements for EPA and DHA. I tried a vegan diet, but I'm back to eating diary, but organic, and not as much as before. I eat meat occasionally in social situations or if it is the only convenient source of protein.
Modified by G at Sun, Apr 02, 2006, 10:10:35
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I guess when Guru Maharaj Ji said as his explanation for vegetarianism that you become what you eat he should have followed his own advice. The massaging of the calf is totally bizarre.
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Ok, if "I" am an "animal" cuz I eat animals........ does that make M a vegetable using the same equation?
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