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Hi Laura,
If what you mean is shock at the realisation that much of what you have taken to be the 'truth' may just an illusion after all, then I think you have come to the right place. We have all experienced disappointment at least, and for some it has been a hell of a shock.
Do mean you want to talk to someone live, as in a phone call, or you hope someone responds to your message?
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Nice input and discussion here by everyone, on this thread.Hi Laura! I had the same inner light experience you describe (i.e. the beautiful petals, for instance, the blinding light, and the daily 'golden doughnut,' etc.), and many many other related experiences, too, over the years - in meditation, during/after silent prayer to a higher power, sometimes simply closing my eyes at night, and also just in calm moments of internal silence. There were also countless moments throughout my life, prior to premiedom, prior to my ever going on a 'spiritual' path, where I saw bright inner light. In fact, other non-premie non-New Agey persons who were witnesses told me once they walked in on me in a room at night with all the lights turned off - but my body was lighting up the entire room with a golden light. It actually scared them, because they didn't know what to make of it. Mind you, I was just a bozo on/off the bus. So, while I am personally a total skeptic about religions and anything smacking of comical archetypal New Age concepts these days (and even concur with Grouchy Marx's assessment that "religion is the opiate of the people"), I know that most of what I have personally experienced in my own life - r.e. so-called mystical experience - was not some fantasy or some kind of mental projection or hallucination. The superimposed concepts came much later for me. Similarly, what Laura and I both saw in the inner light - the petals - is ironically probably what (I later learned) the Vedic pundits termed a "chakra," the same phenomenon that Rawat publicly dissed back in the 1970s at large programs. That would seem to indicate that Rawat himself never even experienced the so-called chakras. In that case, he certainly couldn't have been a guru or master, according to his own traditions! Now, I don't know what to make of these experiences, but that's just something for me and Laura (and any others who have seen them) to conjecture. In fact, this is probably the first time I have mentioned the petals to anyone. (The colors were amazing, too.) Frankly, the only significant mental projections I had (r.e. the subject of meditation, spirituality, satsang, devotion, service, etc.) were mistakenly ascribing all sorts of things later to the guru and to his grace, etc. and all that attendant false baggage (aka bull manure) that we were constantly fed in shatsang and by Mr. Phlegm Rawrat himself repetitively, as part of the Sikh/Radhaswami "teachings of the gurus" [massa/slave] ideology. Whatever false concepts and mental projections I accumulated on this subject came straight from Prempal Singh Rawat and his designated appointees. Empirically, whether it's meditation or any other so-called spiritual experiences, everybody's experience or perception is bound to be a bit different, of course, although we all share some aspects as human beings and also of a collective human experience. Similarly, a bunch of Ford Mustang customers may even drive the same cars, but have different experiences relative to each individual and car, as well as a shared commonality of some experiences as Ford automobile owners/drivers. (Beware of used car salesmen/saleswomen, however!) What's peculiarly different from that analogy, however, is the extreme extent to which most of us were indoctrinated, from the outset, with so many concepts (under the guise of breaking our concepts and the demonized "concept-maker" - our brain and innate intelligence). However, we could liken the spiel to that employed by the wily and persuasive used car salesman. Accordingly, it is only natural then that we may ascribe various attributes to our alleged 'spiritual' experiences - personal experiences that are, in fact, merely subjective and relative. That's the irony of it. We can only verify and evaluate things for ourselves, on this subject - and even then, we don't know for sure how to interpret for ourselves these experiences - without adding possibly extraneous layers of concepts onto such experiences. Within the Rawat cult, these discussions would not even be taking place. We were directed not to discuss our meditation experiences by the mahatmas (instructors). However, we were constantly told by Rawat and his instructors that spiritual experiences were his (the guru's) grace, and also fed a whole bunch of cult-reinforcing concepts that falsely tied us mentally, emotionally, and psychologically in bondage and servitude to Rawat personally. A careful review of Julie Smyth's posts, for instance, only serves to corroborate and reinforce just how powerful and penetrating the cult brainwashing was, as far as affecting people's total cosmology and perceptions of their lives, among other things. Rawat devotees' whole perspective of life and this world were colored and distorted through the cult lenses. Hence, because of the deep and lasting effects of the cult's mind conditioning, the exiting process is not a simple, one-stage progression. Rather, it is a steady continuum of increased awareness and individual growth, a progression away from cult-taught concepts, cult-think, cult-speak, and a revitalization of the brain and an intelligence that was so anathema in the cult's ideology - whereby the unquestioning feeling heart was prioritized and the brain demonized. In fact, the heart and brain are holistically linked. A human being can not survive or function competently without the two working in sync. (That old heart-brain debate reminds me of the 18th century novel Tristam Shandy - Thomas Jefferson's favorite book. I hear the new movie is supposed to be very good, too.) On the contrary, we were spoon-fed a ritualized diatribe of duality by Rawat and his cult operatives, and premies likewise parroted the concepts, the cult-speak, and the pronounced unhealthy demonization of critical and independent thinking ("Mr. Mind"). Rawat attacked critical and independent thinking - for obvious self-serving reasons. After all, if one left 'room for doubt' - especially regarding the massa, well, you would soon have slave insurrection, or at least a steady exodus of devotees -- e.g. Exit Us! That is part and parcel of the rugu traditions, which empower the master and his inner circle, while subjugating the masses of naive devotees - via a socialized learned helplessness that is harmful to a person, rendering many persons somewhat dysfunctional in coping with the necessitudes of their lives, their relationships, and with worldly matters. Everything in life was seen and interpreted through these erroneous and inculcated tainted cult spectacles - by each mentally entrapped and shackled devotee (student). Anyway, based upon my own life experiences, a modicum of wisdom, and some extensive studies/research in this field, I can not and do not ascribe any of my past meditation or cosmic experiences to Rawat - or to anyone else - except to the life energy within me, which one day will dissipate and depart from a decrepit vessel of bones, water, and teeth fit only for recycling. Ashes to ashes. While I can not conclusively prove the existence of any higher power, the existence of a higher power can not similarly be disproved - by anyone. It is a moot argument. I do not find any joy, satisfaction, or relief in argumentation for the sake of argumentation, or for trivial entertainment. I would not attempt to denigrate or otherwise invalidate anyone else's direct experience, and likewise my own experience is valid to me - alone. And the mysteries of the universe and of life itself are infinitely fascinating, at least to me, still. Similarly, I find no dichotomy with Darwin's theory of evolution and Intelligent Creation. (Neither did Albert Einstein.) [I mean, like, what the bleep do we know? haha.] On the other hand, mankind and its history might be the single most compelling evidence and argument against "intelligent design!" [So, to Laura: nobody can invalidate your experience. There is no point for a debate with anyone who might wish to argue about or classify a subject which is not part of their own experience. I think the posters here, for the most part, mean well. Some people have had different experiences and perceptions pertaining to inner sounds, etc., too. Some people tasted a sweetness, while for others it was more phlegmbuoyant. Different strokes for different folks. That's life.] My own life experience has taught me not to make mental/conceptual jumps to more-sweeping conclusions, universal claims or disclaimers, or to personally entertain or nurture anything other than some rationality and understanding, positive warm feelings, ethics, compassion, some talents and interests, and my own private individual belief system. I am not interested in joining any clubs, religions/cults, somebody else's trip or philosophy - ever again. Intellectual self-reliance is very empowering and freeing, indeed. Contrary to the dogmas and proselytizing priests and true believers of all ilk, there are no saved vs. backsliders, the illuminati vs. the great unwashed, the universal truth which we know and others do not. No, that attitude and viewpoint is an altogether ignorant, egotistical pomposity that most religions and cults 'cultivate' and engender within their delusional adherents, fostering rote mental deafness/blindness, and accompanying intolerance and prejudices. The world is too much with religions, late and soon, laying waste this planet and oppressing the rest of humanity with this tyranny of the 'true believers.' In the black comedy of the barbarian homo sapiens history, it is a peculiar phenomenon whereby religions and their fanatical believers will kill other human beings - based simply upon divergent cosmological, deeply held assertions/beliefs which they can NOT prove to be true. The present and on-going situation - vis a vis Christianity, Islam, and Judaism as manifested in world power politics - is a case in point. Similarly, witness the Rawat cult caca, revisionism, lies, and attempts to cover up his unholy tracks and silence his critics and the cult apostates who have left the fold of the 'true believers.' That itself speaks volumes. Dear God, Please save us from your delusional fanatics! Cheers, Mick a pontificating old apostate and mcmystic
Modified by Mick at Tue, Mar 21, 2006, 17:46:55
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Thank you very much for that message which really said it all. There is nothing I disagree with either. It is nice to be understood, and , no, doesn`t matter what anyone says, I know for myself what I have experienced. As to what it means, I really don`t have a clue. I had never heard of the thousand petalled lotus when I saw that one, but I think it was that and, as you say, a chakra, which I also didn`t know much about. I know there is a book called "The secret of the golden flower" which I have never read, but probably talks about the same thing. Many thanks for your help. That and other messages I have got give me the courage to hope that I can enjoy life. All the best Laura
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it is a wonderful book - do read it! LOVE AND LIGHT
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Do you know who wrote it? Then I can order it. Thanks. Love Laura
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Lao Tsu - translated by Richard Willhelm
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A phone-call would be great bedause I think much faster than I can type
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Hi Laura, and welcome. I don't know how much help you will find here, but I assure you you are in good company when it comes to 'disillusion'. I hope you stick around either just to read or join in discussions. In addition to what 13 just said, I'm sure there are plenty of ex-premies here who would be willing to chat via email (John or Mike, the forum admins, will be happy to pass on email addresses etc.) But can I assure you everybody here knows all about the kind of disillusion you seem to be talking about. Some of us have been out of the Rawat cult for years, others are still very recent, but everyone in their own way has had to come to terms with life without the illusory promises and lies of the guru. And maybe not everybody has found it easy, but they'll all tell you that getting out has left them happier in the long run. Have you read the 'Journeys' page on the main ex-premie.org site? - You might find a lot of individual stories that you can relate to. We still get the odd premie dropping in to give us unwanted satsang - there's Julie at the moment - but otherwise, we're all exes and probably have a lot in common with you. Take care, Nigel
Modified by Nigel at Tue, Mar 14, 2006, 08:59:03
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Thanks Nigel. I feel much better since posting on this forum and reading the responses. I also got a response from Julie. I don`t want to hurt her feelings, but I feel that her response lacked some compassion. Maybe I just read too much into it
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Hi Laura! And welcome here! Don't know the nature of your disillusionment, but I can tell you honestly from my own experience, that it can be a very painful thing, and take time to heal from. It's good to share what you are going through with others who have gone through (or are going through) the same process. Many of us here know only too well that there is a real need for recovery and healing from whatever the "illusion" that so had us in its grip! Could be a romantic one, a spiritual one, illusions about our job, the world in general--all sorts of things! The profoundest "illusion" and most dangerous one, imo, is the "spiritual" one--trusting in a teacher with all your soul, only to find out he's a first-class fraud! Hope you'll feel free to share here. It can be very helpful for all of us! Best, Shelagh
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Hi Shelagh and thanks for your messagewhich I agree with 100%. I am disillusioned with Maharaji, because I do not agree with the way he finances his life-style. I am very sorry for the people who gave everything they could out of sincere motives and who realised later that their donations were partly being used to keep Maharaji in an unnecessary level of luxury.
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Yes, hearing about his $7 million luxury yacht was a powerful turning-point for me! (It's since been sold) but the extreme luxury in which he lives just didn't jive with a life supposedly lived with "the knowledge of all knowledges". Not that one has to be poor either--but...it didn't integrate for me. This is what they call a 'drip"! ~Shelagh
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For me , i must admit , i never had a problem with the way he finances his lifestyle . but letters like this , and Dettmers letters also , made me understand just who this sad litlle guru is : 'I guess the point of my expressing it is, how ironic it is that M. who speaks eloquently of how things fit together so beautifully in nature and life, seeks in his own personality, to divide and conquer in order to control. While trashing the study of psychology, and denigrating anyone involved with it, he created a division amongst the instructors that demonized those who had inclinations or experience there, that created deep levels of mistrust. In fact, his personality, like anyone's, was obviously run by the same defense mechanisms we all have. And like most, he seemed oblivious to them. All this was going on around the time of great family difficulty, as it was apparent in his sarcastic remarks that he and Marolyn were having problems. I believe that it was recommended that they get counseling. I think he resented that. Thus, all Psychologists were 'bad'. Pretty basic stuff. Actually, in hindsight, I remember - between bouts of anger that he would do that - feeling both surprised and sad that the 'Lord' would have a personality so riddled with defensivness. What was he so insecure about? But I dissmissed all that quickly, feeling guilty myself for even attempting to understand the 'divine personality' in the same terms as I would anyone else. A number of other instructors however, came up to me and let me know they felt M. was dismissive and in fact needed help, and were talking to someone close enough to him to see if he could be convinced to receive counseling. Many others of course saw that as crass arrogance, and I was too confused by my own unwillingness to admit that what I was seeing was true. I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil. I cried at night sometimes, to ease the pressure of fighting within myself over the seeming contradictions I saw. How can his behavior be so ... well, petty? I could understand him having emotional concerns and relationship problems, but to project them amongst his instructors and set them against eachother to fight and act out his own problems? That seemed so like the behavior exhibited in the unhealthy family structures of abusers and alcoholics. The secrets, (there were many) the need for M to be fauned over, ( a lot! ) the parties and such where the competition to be M.'s favorite, or have him notice you was indescribably thick as custard... It made me sick. In fact, after a while of being exposed to it, I hated being around him. My internal pressure increased the more I witnessed his petty behavior and felt the emotional competition among the instructors, the 'family' of M.'s world. Once, I won a contest – I scored highest on an instructor test - and won the 'opportunity' to have lunch with M. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk to him. He seemed to dislike the whole thing as much as I did. It was all so contrived. There I was, in front of all the other Inst. having jumped highest over a stick, now getting the reward of sitting, with a few other notables, at M's table. People all around the room would turn around to look, as if for that one hour, I was a movie-star, the envy of everyone in the room. Along with the others at the table, I tried to make some small talk to 'open the door' and try to get comfortable. M. was disinterested, stared off in the distance - was somewhere else - and I felt like a big idiot. The whole thing, the pretense of it all was revolting. So I scarfed down my food, got up and left. It took every ounce of courage in me to walk out of that room. Every eye was on me. I had forty five minutes or so of 'bliss time' left, and I walked out on it, walked away from the Lord. The struggle within myself was tearing me apart. Were my perceptions correct? Did M. act like an insecure middle school bully, a hurt child not able to admit to his pain, afraid to simply show everyone his vulnerability and admit it like anyone. Were the other people in the room just being themselves, or was I right in sensing the dysfunctional family dynamics I felt was rampant there. Was I just full of my own shit? Was it all just my projection and I just couldn't handle it? I went outside and broke down, sobbing in disgust and bewilderment, unable to admit that the whole gathering looked and felt like the worst nightmares of my childhood, something I vowed never again to participate in for the rest of my life. Now, here it was again, as the answer to my prayer to serve God. I was heartbroken. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigeretts, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things, again, I questioned myself. Am I just jealous? Is it that I really want those girls to be fauning around me? Again, the same nausea overwhelmed me and I went back to my room. I wanted to be an instructer. I believed in knowledge, but I was deeply disturbed and afraid inside, because I was so confused about M. I juggled that pain for the next three years, giving talks and avoiding M. as much as I could. Yes, if you want, print this.... I feel too sick to my stomach even now to continue writting. More later... Disillusioned.' | |  |
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That is a very interesting tale. Is it on EPO somewhere? I wonder who it was?
I'd bet any money that guy is no longer a devotee or instructor! Back when I was a premie (the 70s and early 80s), my sole goal was to be around M more than I was. That was the prize to be achieved, and very few really got there. I never did (apart from getting to go clean his Malibu residence when he wasn't there!), and now I wish I had, because if I'd seen things like what was described here, I might not have lasted as long as I did.
Man, what a sick, sick scene he describes. I'm so glad he saw through it and was able to disentangle himself, as it must have been difficult from that height.
And congratulations to you, Laura, for having the courage to come here to discuss what you're experiencing, I know it is not easy to say or even think anything negative about M after all the years of being conditioned to think he was the Lord.
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Hi joy. Best of Forum / Former instructor describes nauseating experinces , The letter is from a friend of Kathie D .
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Hope someone gets this message. I would like to talk to people who understand what I am going through What are you going through?
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I`ll try to answer that as best as I can. Right now I am feeling angry, because of the hypocrisy, the deceptions, the misunderstandings, for all the people who had to suffer because of these things. Because people who sincerely wanted to know God and to understand why they were alive were used. They put their trust in someone who selfishly exploited it to feather his own nest. I heard of one premie in particular who sold his house in London and gave all his money to Maharaji, because he really believed that in so doing he was helping to bring peace to the world. Prem Rawat can be as rich as he likes, so far as he makes his money honestly. But when he gets his money by false pretences, taking hard-earned donations and using them to lead a life of luxury, then I have a problem with that. What am I going through? Well, my head is spinning. I remember, in the early days of Divine Light Mission, when I once went to a programme in London with my first husband, I felt very insecure and afraid o9f losing him because of the prevailing mood among the premies that the number 1 thing in life was devotion to the Lord and not to have a loving relationship with your husband. In fact, married couples were encouraged to separate if by doing so, they could serve better. If ever you voiced your fears or doubts, you were sometimes told that you were into your head and the patent answer to all problems was to meditate. There were small tragedies along the way. I knew a very sweet, simple guy who took #Knowledge#. He was so overjoyed and was really happy. When Millenium came along he really believed that if he had faith he would be picked up and wafted from England to the States to be there. When it didn`t happen he flipped, took lots of drugs and ended up in prison on a charge of attempted murder because he burned down the house where his girlfriend was staying. That to me is a frightening example o f the mental damage that can be caused by being a member of a sect and taking things too literally. I felt shocked a few weeks ago when I read Anth Ginn`s Journey on this Domain. It shocked me because I had known Dot and Anth briefly in London when they were waiting to join Unity School at Trembraze in Cornwall. I had to believe what he wrote because I knew that he wouldnt lie about things like that. So from reading that journey, I started reading other things on ex-premie.org and what I read fascinated me. What shocked me was the revelations about Prem Rawat`s hidden life, the cover-up after he killed someone in a car accident in India and all the rest of it. Okay, these things happen, but its the hypocrisy of it all. The man is a confidence-.trickster. On the plus side, I am grateful for taking #Knowledge# because it probably saved my sanity at the time. I am also grateful for the fine times I had, the nobility of soul that I encountered, even the very fine things that our former leader himself said at times. I have problems at the moment coming to terms with the two.facedness of it.
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It was a long time ago for me, but, yes, I do remember the wrenching awfullness of that disillusionment. I wrestled with it through a year of apocalyptic nightmares. This may help: the fact that you have spoken out, publically admitted how you feel, probably means the worst is over. There will still be a mourning for what you have lost, but there is now light--a truly glorious light of freedom and self esteem--at the end of the tunnel. Neville B
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welcome, there are safe hands here. We have been exactly where you are. big love
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Hi, Neville. I just wanted to thank you very much for your message. Love Laura
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Hello Laura, What exactly are you going through! A problem shared is aproblem halved, thats if you have the trust in the person you're talking too, Im a Mum for starters, and Mums can be great people to talk too,no matter what the problem! May hear from u Laura and dont worry> If u have a problem, dont worry it will go away, if you dont have one, dont worry u'll get one, thats the nature of living, so why worry as problems come and go. love julie x
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Hi Julie. Where did you get Knowledge? Was it in Finaghy Park?
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Hello Laura, I was a follower of another guru (Sathya Sai Baba) and I had a sudden, very bad and intense disillusionment. I compiled a recovery webpage that is available on the website of the concerned former Dutch followers. May be reading it will help you. http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/recoveryframe.html Andries
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Hi again and thank you all very much for replying to my plea for help. It means a lot to me. The strange thing is that my disillusionment is Maharaji, the person, and the things I learned about his private life, not, I am relieved to say, with the experience I had when Itook Knowledge. That was real enough and it was so definite that I will never forget it as long as I live. I am just disgusted that Maharaji so cynically uses the gift of Knowledge to manipulate people into financing his lavish, and I think unnecessary life-style. Its like, as it says in the Bible, taking the Name of the Lord in vain. I am no Christian, but that is how it feels to me. I will go through my e-mails and try to answer them all, because it will help me to make sense of the things I have gone through while on this path of self-awareness. I am grateful to Ex-premie.org for providing me with the opportunity to do this. It would be wonderful if it could still be possible for people to open that door in themselves and find the way to that love inside, because , for me, that is the only thing that makes life worth living. Is it not possible to discard the dead wood and still to be able to continue along this path without becoming a slave to somebody elses selfish desires? Love Laura
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Hi Laura,
I'm sure it's hardly astonishing to see you writing ElanVitalish instead of English after all those years in a cult. Do you mind if I translate?
"I took Knowledge": You were shown some simple, basic meditation techniques when you were in a highly emotionally charged setting after the members of the organisation were convinced you already believed anything positive that transpired would be accepted as coming from Prem Rawat.
"the gift of Knowledge": there is no gift. see above. Prem Rawat has no actual connection with your experiences of meditation or life and has no monopoly on the techniques. A minority of people who reject Prem Rawat continue to practise the meditation technqiues and enjoy them.
"path of self-awareness": While you may become more aware while involved in the Rawat religion (as you are doing now that you are realising Prem Rawat's cynical behaviour) it is not a path of self-awareness but a religion based upon worship of Prem Rawat.
"open that door in themselves": there is no door to open. If you become involved in any cult you will have an altered experience of life, especially if it involved some form of meditation or consciousness alteration exercises. The experience is dependant upon the cult milieu and beliefs. You may still experience changes in life attitudes and experiences but opening a door in yourself is a metaphor, not a reality.
"only thing that makes life worth living": as you escape the Rawat cult conditioning and concepts you will nearly certainly find there is no need to believe there is anything that makes life worth living. You may experience less or more love depending upon your personality and life events.
It is certainly possible to discard the dead wood and continue along life's path, only death will end that. People who leave Rawatism have many different experiences and ways of life and beliefs. Most of them agree only that life is better when you no longer believe in Malibu Prem and the ideas he has harangued you with for the last x number of years.
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Couldn't have said it better myself, Ocker. There are a lot of layers of indoctrinated thinking one has to peel off to get free of the cult. Laura seems to have subscribed to quite a few (and didn't we all), but that will change as time goes by and she steps out into reality.
She has made the first, fundamental step, though, and that's seeing Rawat in an honest light, seeing his actions for what they really are, and not excusing them as lila of the Lord.
Modified by Joy at Sun, Mar 19, 2006, 09:48:43
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Thanks for your reply. You may be right and I am sure you are, but I just want to try to make some sense out of all the things I experienced when I was shown the four meditation techniques. The strange thing is that I really did see something extraordinary when I was given the light technique. I saw a light that was so bright that I thought that I would go blind, but I didn`t care because it was really beautiful. And then it turned into an incredible flower with layer upon layer of petals, so many that I couldn`t count them. If I hadn`t had such an experience I would have stopped following Maharaji years ago. I still want to keep on meditating, but I really want to put everything that I have experienced in my life into perspective and I hope that this forum will provide me with an opportunity to do this. More than anything else I want the truth and dont want my life to be steered by any pleasant fantasies initiated by some wishes I want fulfilled. Hope you can help
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I'm not one of the people who had that sort of effect when I became initiated. The so-called Mahatma Padarthanand actually hurt my eyes by squeezing them far too hard. I was more of a losing my thoughts in 3rd technique sort of meditator.
You certainly seem to be on the right path when you say "I want the truth." It seems to me that most long term premies that I know no longer have any thirst for truth but prefer to remain in their comfortable Rawatian rut.
I don't see that there is any problem with continuing meditating though it may make it more difficult to break the concepts that your meditation has some connection with Prem Rawat. Why don't you try researching the methods of meditation, the effects of meditation and the teachings about meditation from other, more reputable sources while you continue meditation so that you gain a more realistic viewpoint about meditation while continuing your practise as you enjoy it. You could also try meeting people who use other forms of meditation and talking about your experiences. I understand that this is a no-no in EV so you will probably find sharing "satsang" with other people quite refreshing. And in the end there are lots of worse things than having pleasant fantasies initiated by unfulfilled wishes. Relax you no longer have anything to prove and no impossible dreams to live up to. Why have no premies ever become realised? It's not their fault.
All the best.
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there is a vast diversity of opinion here on this forum with regard to each of our 'experiences', it ranges from the 'mystics', who just carry on meditating without the burden of guru-worship, to the born-again atheists (AKA Dawkinians) who insist that there is no 'experience' whatsoever. You have now taken the first step nto freedom and that freedom allows you to make your own mind up based on your own experience of life. One thing is certain;- any inner experience that you have had did NOT come from Rawat. Check out www.mikefinch.com
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Falcon,
There are not, to my knowledge any 'born-again atheists' here, although some ex-premies believe there is no God. The are certainly no 'Dawkinians' as in 'followers of Dawkins' here. 
But more seriously, I have never read anyone 'insist that there is no 'experience' whatsoever'. There have been many discussions on what the experiences are, which would be difficult if they didn't exist. Maybe you just expressed yourself clumsily.
John.
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I have had plenty of 'experiences' before, during and after K. All of which were (and are) extremely pleasurable. No doubt about that. It all comes down to attribution. During K (also known as 'being a premie') I thought and believed it was down to Prem Rawat's grace and stuff like that. I was wrong. Simple as that, case closed.
T
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Whaddya mean there are no born-again atheists here?
There is no Dog, nor has there ever been. We are all a complicated co-operative colony of latvian bacteria. Krotopkin was right, dog bless his little Russian anarchic socks.
Anth the born again atheistic situationist.
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I don't think any books on atheism include the line:-
"Lest ye be born again ye cannot enter the kingdom of atheism!"
John the hasn't much of a clue about God
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Hi John,
As a situationist, I have liberated language from the prison of orthodox christianity.
We are allowed to use experssions like, "born again" to describe the re-emergence of old ideas, methodology, and pycho-babble in a non-christian environment. (Haven't you heard of "reincarnation" or "rebirthing"? Of course you have.)
And, of course, we situationists don't get our atheism from books, as with all or our philosophy, we make it up as we go along.
anth, there is no dog (I was bit by an atheist hedgehog, egged on by a born-again butterfly)
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Anth,
I understand what you are saying when you say you liberate language, and make it up as you go along; which is why none of your political arguments are coherent, and why we love you so much even when you commit the worst sin of spilling drinks on summer evenings sitting outside pubs in Kensington.
John the elephant
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....and I agree ...and I'll add an exclamation mark just to be emphatic !
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Hi Laura,
I too had powerful experiences when I meditated, and these experiences kept me following Maharaji. My fundamental mistake was that these experiences were anything to do with him. These days, I regard Mr Rawat as nothing more that yet another con man - I have relinquinshed any connection to him - but I know that those experiences I had in meditation are just as available as ever.
However, I don't even bother going there any more. What you make of those entirely subjective experiences is purely a matter of interpretation. Most people give them a spiritual spin. I am too cynical for that. Be wary of applying too much meaning to those experiences. I remember taking acid once and being convinced that the number 13 was the answer. Now I know it is just another number, and I no longer remember or care what I thought it was the answer to.
If you want to be steered away from pleasant fantasies, choose if you can the company of people who are out there in the real world, making a difference. We have learned a lot of self-indulgent habits in the 'me' generation, and they take a lot of effort and care to break out of.
Good luck!
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Laura, if you are reading this one, let me tell you in advance, we are all jokesters, too. We like humor  A: 13
Q: What is one of the prime numbers? There, did I just cause a flashback?
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I like humour too. It`s just that lately I havent had much to laugh about. At the best all I can manage is black humour. This forum has cheered me up though
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if you want to talk ask Mike Finch for my mobile number
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Laura, that's the explanation as far as I can tell. As for the flower, well, who knows? I mean, we dream, don't we? It can be very vivid, and the human brain is an amazing thing, capable of producing amazing experiences that have no reality in the external world whatsoever. Look at what drugs can do. I saw some light when I received knowledge, then a kind of mazey, moving, green-light thing, that wasn't very impressive, but the the thing is, if what Rawat was offering was something more than just some mechanical meditation techniques, kind of a Hundu parlor trick that was kind of well known in India but novel in the West, why didn't EVERYONE have the kind of experience you did? Fact is, they didn't. So that alone is something suspect. And also, if the techniques are some kind of wonderful thing, how come you didn't have that experience every time you did the technique? How come it didn't always work? Another suspect thing. And don't underestimate the power of suggestion and indoctrination. You probably wanted very badly to have a great "experience" and were told over and over that's what you were going to have, and that it would be an ultimate experience as well. Under those circumstances, it's completely understandable that the consequences of not having a great experience was so great, that many people manufactured them in their own brains. But in any event, whatever experience you did have had nothing whatsoever to do with Prem Rawat, that's for sure.
Modified by Joe at Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 13:08:53
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Joe,
I know from your previous posts you didn't experience anything cosmic in meditation, but please take my word for it, others, including myself, did. Whatever it is, I am convinced the light is not pressure on the optic nerve, the music is not the sound of blood flow echoing in the ears, nectar isn't snot, and the holy name isn't just some relaxation technique.
I don't rule out the power of self-suggestion. Something in our minds knows what the most beautiful sound is - after all, we have a lifetime of experience listening to sounds from raucous to sublime. So it's not hard to imagine that our subconscious could come up with the best of the best, but when I heard it, I was awestruck. We also have a strong concept of what is 'divine', so manufacturing that feeling in Rawat's presence is possible.
But what I'm trying to say is that many premies did have experiences that were convincing. That's the problem with these cosmic experiences - they are convincing - and those who experience them will pretty much always attribute them to whatever religion they happen to belive in, or be susceptible to.
I wonder if Prem Rawat ever had such experiences?
John.
Modified by JHB at Mon, Mar 20, 2006, 13:28:00
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I think there were a combination of things, suggestion being one of them, which I stated in my post and with which you agree. But speaking for myself, the light was definitely the optic nerve talking, but then, I see light when I close my eyes anyway, just not as intensely without the squeeze, don't you? But I strongly believe the "light" I saw as pressure on the optic nerve, but I think I'm clear in my post that there are a combination of factors, including the power of suggestion, as you seem to agree: And don't underestimate the power of suggestion and indoctrination. You probably wanted very badly to have a great "experience" and were told over and over that's what you were going to have, and that it would be an ultimate experience as well. Under those circumstances, it's completely understandable that the consequences of not having a great experience was so great, that many people manufactured them in their own brains.
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Joe,
I accept that what you experienced was optic nerve pressure. I am saying that there is an experience of a very different kind that is awe inspiring when it happens. From what you've written, I don't think it ever happened to you. Probably why you were able to reject Rawat relatively early.
But regarding the cosmic experiences, we are agreed about the possible cause.
John.
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I haven't seen a discussion on this topic before. It does seem pretty straightforward that people who had more "cosmic" experiences during "initiation" would be far more likely to remain true believers especially if they continued to have "cosmic" experiences during the ongoing years of meditation.
On the other hand I remember some "cosmic" meditators (at least that's how they described it during satsang) leaving quite early because they didn't have the strong sense of attribution of the experience to Prem Rawat and didn't bond with the premies as strongly and especially they were unhappy with the attempts at regimentation in DLM.
I'm afraid the the interesting possibilities of researching these differences has already been lost because DLM and EV did/do not want any scrutiny of the devotees' meditation.
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A good friend, who I saw as a bit of a fringe premie, always reported strong meditation experiences. As a premie he did service, especially driving, as he was one of the few premies in Leeds who had a car. He once drove Charnanand from Leeds to London and found him very rude. Anyway, when I told him about EPO he was very relaxed about it, and continued to enjoy his cosmic meditation experiences. I had always been concerned that he hadn't understood who Maharaji was, but it appears he didn't need to.
John.
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And then it turned into an incredible flower with layer upon layer of petals
I too had a remarkable experience at initiation, very different in kind from yours, but no less convincing. As you say... If I hadn`t had such an experience I would have stopped following Maharaji years ago.
I wouldn't even have followed him for a second otherwise. As it was I couldn't bring myself to kiss his feet immediately afterwards, even though he was sitting in the next room. I'm sure you can easily imagine the horrendous mental turmoil that caused over the years.
For one thing I believed for a long time that the reason I wasn't progressing much towards realisation, was because I'd made the fundamental mistake of spurning my first darshan opportunity before I really knew how important darshan was. Doh! Except it wasn't funny.
I think one way of getting some perspective on the experience is to ask yourself 'would I have allowed someone to press my eyeballs & stop up my ears if there hadn't been the explicit claim that this was the way to access God within'? For myself the answer would have to be 'no', because without an explanation of what it means, it's just a pretty weird thing to do.
As to what it really is, I haven't much interest in finding out, even were that to be possible, which I'm not sure it is. I mean the physiological explanation might be of interest to someone in the medical sciences, but that's not me. I did make an attempt to engage my Consultant Opthalmologist (I have glaucoma) in a conversation along those lines once, but as there are only about 24 of them in England & the waiting list goes to eternity, there wasn't much time in the allotted 5 mins to get very far.
He did say very forcefully that eyeball pressing is not recommended.
The metaphysical explanation is obviously bullshit, in that it can't account for the variety of individual reactions ranging from from the sublime to the zero which have been reported.
That just leaves you, (& me) in the position of someone who walks into a wall. This is my abiding sensation of being a premie. I gradually came to the conclusion that 'Love' is mainly an act of will, & when I was able to throw off forever the notion that it is mainly a feeling, & one dependent in some way on Prem Pal, then I think I can practise it much better.
Incidentally, you wouldn't be the Laura who got a lift to a prog. in Manchester England around 1980 in an old volvo estate car, would you?
If so, I was the driver, shit, what am I saying, it was my fucking car. Anyway, if it was you, I admired your panache in getting changed into your darshan party frock in full view of the rush hour motorists on the M6.
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Hi Pat. Thanks for your message. No I was not the Laura who got a lift to a prog. in Manchester, although I am English. I often wondered whether practising the light technique was bad for the eyes. I find it uncomfortable and after that unusual experience I had when Adhar Anand showed me the technique I never saw anything like that again. That was really a one-off. I pretty well agree with your definition of love. I must also add, in corroboration of what you say, that some of my most intense experiences of love, as being an incredible feeling of intensity, almost taking my breath away, have been felt by me in situations which had nothing to do with Maharaji and with people who didn`t have "knowledge".
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Possible, but maybe a bit tougher because you will realize just to what degree the programming of his role in your practice, and faith in him, was the key to any experiences you had, and disentangling his repetitive thoughts while practicing the same makes it more difficult
But in my experience if you got something of real value from the practice then, you will now.
The only thing that changes is that the illusion is removed.
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Hi Laura! Yes, I do believe it's possible to go on with whatever is still meaningful in your life, whilst discarding what no longer works. I see all my disillusionments as learning experiences in which I am learning, mostly, about myself! But also learning about the world, and the fact that there ARE scammers and tricksters to be aware of! That we get caught by these people from time to time does not mean we are crazy, or that everything about that experience or that person should be completely trashed. And we certainly don't want to trash ourselves. THis is black and white thinking that used to get me into a lot of trouble. Either this guy is my soul-mate, or nothing! Either this beautiful experience I had was completely true or a complete lie! I don't think the world or our own lives have to be so "all or nothing". We can keep what's of value as we move through and out of phases that no longer serve as well as they once did. You know, the old "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" idea. It's taken me a lot of time, and a fair amount of disillusionment, to get to this awareness, but I wouldn't exchange it for anything now. The truth, however we currently experience it, is all we have to go on, imo. I still love sacred music though I discarded a good bit of the Christian architecture a long time ago. I still see the light in me, though I left premiehood four years ago. I can still be thankful for the people who have come and gone in my life because every single one of them showed me something of value! Take the best and leave the rest! And most of all, value yourself for what you have tried and experienced. ~Shelagh
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I also love sacred music, the feeling of it. It's ok if the lyrics are in German, Italian, or Latin, since I don't care for some of the concepts anyway, especially the rot about eternal hell.
I sometimes end up doing something like breath meditation, which sometimes helps me calm down and be more "aware" in a sense. It still works the same way, but without the mumbo jumbo or disappointment due to gradious expectations, expectations I might add that were instilled by Rawat & co.
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Hi G! I still think Mozart's Ave Verum Corpus is one of the most beautiful pieces of choral music ever written! And as far as I know, Rawat has never put his greedy little mitts on that! Phew! I used to sing in the Bach Choir is St.Albans, UK, many many moons ago. Boy, what a nice bathtub effect cathedrals have! To the tenth power... Cheers, Shelagh
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I listened to a few samples at Amazon of Ave Verum Corpus, very beautiful, I don't know if I've heard all of it. I've listened to lots of Bach (including cantatas), and a fair amount of Handel (Theodora is great and was his favorite). I'm thinking of getting a box set of Mozart. I'm just discovering 'The Creation' by Haydn. I'd like to sing in a choir, but I can't start with a top-notch one, I doubt I'd pass an audition (got to learn to sight sing well first, might need lessons).
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Hi G! I sang in various church choirs before attempting the Bach Choir. I learned sight-reading just by being in those choirs--hours and hours of practice as well as the "performances" themselves. It just comes, with time. I suppose i had pretty good music teachers in high school too--oh yes, I was also in our school choir. One in particular even had us compose music! I'm glad for all that experience, but I'm past all that now, at my ripe old age, and wrestling with asthma problems. Good luck! Go for it, if you want to sing! It's great! I don't think I was particularly talented as a singer. I just WANTED to sing! And the nice thing about singing with 200 other people is you only have to remember NOT to sing if you aren't sure of your part! The rest will carry it! Did you ever see the cartoon of a choir singing lustily with their mouths wide open, and here comes this little bird with a worm all ready to pop in! Cheers, Shelagh
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I think I did see that cartoon, I tried doing a web search but didn't find it.
G
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Great. It\s how I feel too. I can still be inspired by some of the things Prem Rawat says, although now I notice the bags under his eyes (Maybe the morning after?) Since reading Anth`s Journey I don`t watch him with unqualified adoration any more. I like it better that way and now I really am starting to feel free from that guilt of not being "good enough" and learning to relax and accept things
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