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Moley,
I share your quandary, and my solution is to accept that I have both the respect for rational thought, and the wish for the 'spiritual' life. The first is all I have to stand on, as anything else requires accepting something on faith, and for me this would be cheating myself. But that's OK, as rational thought has achieved so much, and will continue to do so. The second is clearly something that has been with me for a long time, and isn't going to disappear. And why should it? - it just needs to be directed towards something that is real to me.
I find the problem is becoming partly resolved by the natural application of the feeling of awe, that one time would have been directed at 'God', being gradually transfered to the fact of our own existence and the process that led us here. That we could arise from random changes in successive generations of simple life forms is awesome.
Although the idea of 'worshipping' rational thought is a little off-putting, if more people treated it with greater respect then there would be greater hope for solving the problems of our race. And if rational thought could be seen as being successful in solving some of the more intractable problems then perhaps more people would embrace it.
John.
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Thanks for your thoughts, JHB. I think that's very much how Nige sees things too. But (sorry!), though what you are saying ... I find the problem is becoming partly resolved by the natural application of the feeling of awe, that one time would have been directed at 'God', being gradually transfered to the fact of our own existence and the process that led us here. That we could arise from random changes in successive generations of simple life forms is awesome. makes logical sense, I'm not quite sure how the 'transfer' is made. Nor am I sure how I can naturally apply the feeling of awe. In fact, I don't really think I have a feeling of awe. It's not so much 'awe' that I don't know what to do with, more the feelings of 'belonging', 'home-coming', love, human spirit, in spite (not because) of nature 'red in tooth and claw'. That random stuff fills me with a kind of horror. No way can I 'transfer' (even if I knew how to do that) my 'spiritual' feelings to any worship of evolution. It all seems so impersonal - looking at my baby grandchildren and thinking they are just made from nothing, and going to be nothing when they die. I'm not saying that's not the way it is - it is perfectly rational. But it so cold and cruel. Not awe-inspiring.
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One of my favourite poems, if a bit disturbing, is John Betjeman's 'Portrait of a Deaf Man'... >>> The kind old face, the egg-shaped head,
The tie, discreetly loud,
The loosely fitting shooting clothes,
A closely fitting shroud.
He liked old city dining rooms,
Potatoes in their skin,
But now his mouth is wide to let
The London clay come in.
He took me on long silent walks
In country lanes when young.
He knew the names of ev'ry bird
But not the song it sung.
And when he could not hear me speak
He smiled and looked so wise
That now I do not like to think
Of maggots in his eyes.
He liked the rain-washed Cornish air
And smell of ploughed-up soil,
He liked a landscape big and bare
And painted it in oil.
But least of all he liked that place
Which hangs on Highgate Hill
Of soaked Carrara-covered earth
For Londoners to fill.
He would have liked to say goodbye,
Shake hands with many friends,
In Highgate now his finger-bones
Stick through his finger-ends.
You, God, who treat him thus and thus,
Say "Save his soul and pray."
You ask me to believe You and
I only see decay.
>>>
If that's not heartbreaking enough, I only learned today that Betjeman - churchgoing Anglican - wrote this poem about his father who died while he was young. Yup, 'Nature' is 'red in tooth and claw' (Tennyson after reading Darwin), and there's not much we can do about it. Maybe best is just celebrate and enjoy the company of good humans while we're here, never mind what nonsense they might happen to believe (if - like sex - they do it in private) Reality may be cold and cruel, but read the love between the lines in the Betjeman poem. That's just as real. Maybe more so?
Modified by Nigel at Sat, Mar 04, 2006, 20:01:38
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Moley,
Nature is not objectively cruel and cold - only humans paint those attributes on nature's face. Nature is what it is - an outpouring of life after life after life, and sure that includes death but death is but the catering division of nature. I believe we largely make our own choice about the feelings to project upon nature, although I accept that those feelings owe much to our nurture. You can just as well view nature with awe and fascination, as paint it as cruel and cold. I don't think nature cares that much!
If we are going to project our feelings on our environment, far better to project them on what is clearly real, than on some imaginary creator. As far as feelings of belonging and being at home go, you clearly do belong here, and are at home, so just feel it! And if you need a physical expression of those feelings, just get Nigel to give you a hug. 
John.
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A cyber hug to you.  Yeh, I do get what you mean about nature. And your: death is but the catering division of nature Very well put. Though I'm still not sure I like the idea of being wormfood (although the 'I' won't be there then - I hope! - which is a comfort).
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I'm sorry but what is your problem? Now you'd really have a problem if you didn't enjoy being in the 'spiritual' parts of your brain and couldn't stay out of them.
The rational answer is simple and appears soundly based in evolutionary psychology: Human beings are not rational and if they're enjoying the non-rational 'spiritual' experiences of their life they should be thankful (though not to Prem Rawat).
I get "blissed out" at religious ceremonies, love being with religious people and can drift off into "Wordsworthian" mystical reveries at the drop of a dawn sunbeam slanting through the clouds over the ocean. But then I'm also a thorough going atheist who believes all religion is in the mind - but then isn't everything?
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That I just can't do what you do (apart from "Wordsworthian" reveries, but without the mystical bit). Human beings are not rational and if they're enjoying the non-rational 'spiritual' experiences of their life they should be thankful Sorry, but I just don't get that. But then I'm also a thorough going atheist who believes all religion is in the mind - but then isn't everything? Umm - Yeh, everything is 'in the mind', in the sense that the mind processes the world, but some of the everything is outside the mind too, ie real. I could spend this evening with a spirit guide, Captain Kirk, or Nige - they are all in my mind...
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If we were talking I'd probably understand what you meant by that as I'd have the non-verbal cues. I think you understood the meaning of the sentence but in case it was too brief I meant human beings have a rational component but it's importance in our complete experience is normally overrated. There are lots of aspects of our lives, especially including the religious and spiritual ones and interpersonal ones that are a-rational. Your post sounded as if you enjoyed these 'spiritual pathways' ie you liked being in the laid-back, peaceful, happy, even fatalistic, bits of you. It seems to me that if you actively disliked being in those 'spiritual pathways' then that would be a real problem but as you enjoy them why not accept them even if they are just a 'placebo effect', a residue of millenia evolving on the savannah or something that will never be explained.
I think most people can only spend a few decades worrying about this before age kicks in but I guess you're too young and you English are so hot-blooded and tempestuous you'll probably go down raging at the dying light shouting "what do we do?".
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too young ... hot-blooded and tempestuous I wish! But, seriously, I think I understand you.. My thing is that I can't enjoy something if I think that the thing I am enjoying is not what I think it is, but merely the placebo effect.
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Merely the placebo effect. Where does 'merely' come into it? Here we have an effect that can cure people from many deadly diseases without the need for medical treatments that required the investment of billions of dollars and thousands of years of human cultural development and you call that 'merely'.
Here you can experience all the joys of the religious and spiritual life without having to accept the conceptual baggage of thousands of years of human religious history - a history full of savagery and evil and ideas full of intolerance and hatred - and you call that 'merely'?
Your heart certainly seems to be in the right place but your ideas need some updating.
Modified by Ocker at Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 21:20:48
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'Yet I like being in the bits of my brain that were programmed by spiritual stuff - i.e. the laid-back, peaceful, happy, even fatalistic, bits of me... (ok guys - send for the straight-jacket people!).' 'I just got a real strong sense of 'belonging' when talking to the proprieter. I 'know' its cos of my past spiritual-seeking phase ( a very long one!), but that doesn't make it any less real, or less convincing.' You are assuming that the spiritual sensations you are describing were inculcated into you by the cult. But is it not possible that it was through the cult that you gave expression to feelings already existing inside you? These feelings are common to people of many different spiritual persuasions. When I see a certain look on the faces of Buddhists, some Christians I know, I believe that they are all experiencing something very similar, if not identical. In fact, they are experienced by many people who don't consider themselves 'religious' anyway. It’s becoming cliched to say that Maharajism subverts a natural process by associating all such internal feeings with the notion that these are Prem within, but this is the reality of cult involvement. The immense psychological pressure to abandon conventional logic and cause and effect in favour of surrender to guru in return for grace (arbitrary reward depending on ‘divine’ mood) means that on leaving a cult one will flee for refuge to total logic and maybe atheism. If one is atheist by nature (and it’s a perfectly honourable position), it may be relatively easy to transfer previous ‘religious’ awe to natural phenomena. However, if one is in fact spiritual by nature, the odds are that we will never succeed in this. It will always feel contrived to feel ‘satisfied’ by a good delve into evolutionary theory and study of the moons of Jupiter, even though these things are deeply impressive. The answer may be to find a new avenue of spirituality which combines with free use of the intellect and good basic sense and conscience, and many options for this exist within the western enlightened tradition. These are just immediate reactions to your posts, and naturally we all have to make our own judgements.
Modified by Anthony at Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 06:06:51
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Hi Anthony. My first reactions to your post. (am going out, but might do more considered one later)... I'm not making a connection between my 'spiritual brain' and the cult. It's the other stuff - eg tibetan buddhism - that I've not had bad experiences with, that has a certain resonance. I'm interested in your aetheist by nature/spiritual by nature dichotomy. Can you elaborate? The answer may be to find a new avenue of spirituality which combines with free use of the intellect and good basic sense and conscience, and many options for this exist within the western enlightened tradition. Its the 'free use of intellect' bit... the rational bit of me (ie intellect) - free, I hope (but maybe not, and that's the problem!) that can't take on board any religion.
Modified by moley at Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 10:40:56
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It's not surprising that you may feel this sort of empathy with Buddhism in the bookshop, because it is a feeling of wholeness, of integratedness, which is quite natural and has zero connection with cult indebtedness to a teacher.
It's just beautiful in its own right. Maybe the people there were tuned into a common emotional vibration. Whether this was actually a spiritual sensation or just a type of psychological atunement could be argued. This would then introduce the question of what we used at best to experience in community satsang, whether it was spiritual or an emotional coalescence. Personally, I think it was a common love centre which was touched and amplified through the group. It doesn't surprise me at all that this centre should exist inside us, and be completely independent of anything 'religious'. Indeed, religion seems to me to try to monopolise this, whereas it is quite innate, and should be preserved as such against the encroachment of any ideology. When I feel this feeling I sense it inside everything around me - that it's in the trees, grass, plants, light, colours, it's infiltrating everything and the power inside it all. Naturally, this could be a bio-chemical state, but I love it, and couldn't exist without a good dose of it. This is probably what I meant by people being naturally atheist or spiritual by inclination. By our own nature, we will tend always to analyse these things objectively or just feel they are part of a natural all-embracing loving power. I tend to think of this as the said power, but believe that we simultaneously have a totally free mind, completely independent personality and free conscience. Even in saying this, I can feel personal objections arise, but it remains a very profound human experience that there is a universal entity or power of which we are all part, and will give some of us no rest until we acknowledge this.
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And thank you. Nige described the Tibetan buddhist shop experience as 'centred' - and that from a hard-boiled aetheist. (I wonder why 'hard-boiled' and 'aetheist' trip off the tongue together so easily- perhaps a common, but misguided, view of the aethesitic mind-set?) Terminlogy is tricky, ain't it? When you say: When I feel this feeling I sense it inside everything around me - that it's in the trees, grass, plants, light, colours, it's infiltrating everything and the power inside it all. And what you go on to say (about a universal entity/power) is where I have the problem... Funny, as you indicate yourself in: Even in saying this, I can feel personal objections arise, Yeh, that's my dilemma. Would that it were easy to just acknowledge a very profound human experience as opposed to a universal entity or power of which we are all part, and will give some of us no rest until we acknowledge this. Yet, as you allude to, some sort of 'out-there' power/entity is a focus for one's feelings (doubtless real) of something we have labelled as 'the divine'. Pat C. (who, sadly, doesn't post any more) once said that he could 'worship' human love and joy. I liked that ( and I'm sure many aetheists do - hence 'hard-boiled' is innappropriate), but (and it is a big BUT) I still feel somewhat drawn to some sort of 'out-there' system of belief (or, rather, experience). New Age believers (whatever persuaion) often seem to me to have no problem deleting whatever they like from religious philosophical systems and keeping whatever they like (pic'n'mix style). For me, I see where they are coming from... but it is like 'making things up as you go along' - nothing wrong with that, as regards individual free-thinking, but it is, 'making things up', which I think may become increasingly solipsistic if one doesn't compare and contrast with other people. Hence, I am grateful for your's and others' replies on this thread.
Modified by moley at Tue, Mar 07, 2006, 12:22:11
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Surely it would be a problem if you took on another set of baggage, not the attraction to those experiences, which after all are quite natural to have.
The god spot, and lots of other chemicals in our brains and bodies can induce those feelins.
I would say explore, but slowly/warily when it comes to conceptual frameworks, but enjoy otherwise.
Now for me music does it, and all the mates I've made through dance music have a strong element of 'that' vibe around them, as they recognize in me too. It's part of our being innit.
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Surely it would be a problem if you took on another set of baggage, not the attraction to those experiences, which after all are quite natural to have. Thing is, not sure how I can possibly get into the attraction of stuff that is just a figment of my imagination - bit like fantasising about Tom Cruise and moi. Waste of time! (not that I'd want to anyway when I've got Nige!) Music - lives in a different bit of me brain than 'spiritual' stuff.
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If you use those terms when referring to the effects of the brain and body chemicals on your experiences how do you differentiate between valid feelings and non valid in anything?
In which case surely they have validity because they are part of your bilogical reality, and surely also, the problem comes when you add doctrines, concepts and elevate them to a higher ground. It's the hierarchy that's at fault there surely, not the experiences themselves.
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If you use those terms when referring to the effects of the brain and body chemicals on your experiences how do you differentiate between valid feelings and non valid in anything? Hi Hamzen . Well, in answer to your question, I guess you can't! In which case surely they have validity because they are part of your bilogical reality, and surely also, the problem comes when you add doctrines, concepts and elevate them to a higher ground. It's the hierarchy that's at fault there surely, not the experiences themselves. Yeh I think you are right. Not sure where to go with it all as yet, but I think you have got something there. We can just experience this stuff without any concepts, I think you are saying... But where does this stuff come from - is it biologically determined, or are we programmed by early exposure to various religions? And if the latter, programmed to experience such feelings in the first place, or programmed to label such experiences 'religious'?
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In terms of the labelling I think some people have those feelings and experiences, both from a community level and as spiritual type experiences who would never even have thought about it in those terms, so I don't think the specific labelling is universal.
I've met loads of people in the last 15 years who have those feelings through different channels who just see them as a part of living.
Classic example. Last night I was out at a dubstep all-nighter, dubstepp is like a mix of dub and drum and bass, but where the sub-bass makes drum'n'bass sub feel lightweight. When they get the sub right in a venue you get more than the usual chest tickling with the sub, sometimes even feel your cranion pulsing from the bass, anyways I digress.
Heard a conversation like this last night
"nah, nah, really I was alright, it was just weird, it was like I
just went into the bass hitting my body and I went into a sorta trance
state, it was alright though" all the while shaking his head, perplexed
and intrigued by it 
And that's not the first one like that I've heard.Their phrase for the night is 'meditate on the bass weight'. and the people who run it are called DMZ, short for Digital Mystikz
Also in Persingers research they found different takes on the god spot when it was triggered by one of his helmets.
The religious experienced it as meeting god face to face, literally
Atheists experienced it as a universal feeling of oneness with no personality involved, and a third group experienced it as being probed by aliens
That in a nutshell is why I take my position now, while also being very conscious of the feeling I thought you were desribing, and still holding its value very highly.
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Sounds cool, Hammy. And strangely not unlike my Irish nuns (whom I look after) and their wierd and wonderful head-spaces...though they prefer the Irish Tenors
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Hi Moley When you say : It's not so much 'awe' that I don't know what to do with, more the feelings of 'belonging', 'home-coming', love, human spirit, in spite (not because) of nature 'red in tooth and claw'. And later say: It all seems so impersonal - looking at my baby grandchildren and thinking they are just made from nothing, and going to be nothing when they die. I'm not saying that's not the way it is - it is perfectly rational. But it so cold and cruel. Not awe-inspiring. My response is: I don’t really know for certain how to reconcile the apparently irreconcilable although I think having the “divine other“ safety net is not as important as we occasionally try to make it out to be. I know, for the sake of a certain degree of sanity, we live in our own little mental constructs and do our best to make them meaningful but I also know there are some exquisite, ineffable, mysterious qualities to our lives also, beyond the point where we can pin them down and comfortably rationalise them. Whether we are destined to become worm food, and nothing more, or whether we are destined for something other, there’s nothing, really nothing, we can do but live life and accept life as we face it now. Here we are, enjoy it while we can, basically. I do think it actually helps to stop seeking for the ultimate answer - it saves a lot of frustration, at any rate - and to stop trying to fit things into some greater meaning. That, though, is just how I see it and I’m fully aware we each have our own ways to come to terms with the present reality of being here, right now, alive and conscious. It would be great if, even beyond physical death, we experienced some overwhelming expansion of consciousness, a deeper understanding of life and a sublime feeling of love the like of which we’ve never even known or, at best, have only felt little intimations of. Little teasing tasters, if you like. Though I’m sure our imaginations could conjure up less delightful “ after- lifes” too from the tortures of hell to whatever else.Personally speaking, I don’t need to believe in any of that, though, or even hope for it or dread it. I actually doubt it will ever come to pass but I don’t even need to doubt it either and make a big deal about my scepticism. And, of course, if the unconscious worm food destiny is it then I’m sure I won’t feel let down. I won’t feel anything anyway. Likewise, in your case, either way, you still get to love your grandchildren . They are still beautiful. And today,in my case, on an afternoon walk, the sunshine, the big white fluffy clouds, the lovely blue sky, the gorgeous slightly chilly breeze was a delight. And so was the cup of tea, couple of biscuits and a fag when I got home too. Life. And the resonance you pick up re the Tibetan encounter? I’m not sure I see your problem. Just feel what you feel. Or am I just stating “ obvious” stuff and you’re hankering for some feedback beyond the obvious? Maybe I’m incapable of seeing beyond the obvious and it’s sufficient for me. I know we each have our own peculiar slant on things at different times and under different circumstances. You don’t really need a spiritual construct in order to feel and experience the mysterious, beautiful inexplicable stuff and you don’t need to think your rational side is a party- pooper to it either. Basically, it’s best, IMO, just to take it as it comes and, even though life is shit at times, too ( I‘m not denying that either), what else can we really do? Cheers I guess what you’re asking is: Is it possible to make sense, satisfying sense, both rationally and emotionally, of such basic qualities as love, goodness and beauty ( with your grandchildren as embodiments of such qualities) faced with a world consisting of much more than just those qualities, (their extreme opposites, for instance, as well as all the other stuff in between ) and not feel a nagging doubt that, ultimately, everything ( including the good stuff) is just completely & utterly futile and meaningless? And also asking, so where do the intimations of something deeply “ spiritual” fit into all of that and how do I deal with them if, rationally, I‘m one of those who can‘t quite “ get“ the “divine other” thing but still experience such feelings and yearnings regardless?
Modified by Dermot at Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 11:36:16
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Nige just said that yours is possibly the best ex-premie post he has ever read. No kidding! This bit: You don’t really need a spiritual construct in order to feel and experience the mysterious, beautiful inexplicable stuff and you don’t need to think your rational side is a party- pooper to it either. And all the other bits too for that matter, I feel, are just the answers that I am needing to hear. Not quite sure how you did that, but you certainly did something! Ditto, cheers
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Nige just said that yours is possibly the best ex-premie post he has ever read. No kidding! Well, seriously, I wouldn’t rank it anywhere near the best as I’ve read so many amazing posts. Thanks for the compliment, Nige, but I honestly don’t think it’s warranted. Also, I wish I could still edit it as the first paragraph somehow got relegated to the bottom of the page when I tried to modify it and, last but not least, God knows how many red interjections Jim the master grammarian would scrawl over it as the detailed study of grammar wasn’t something I ever paid much regard to, hehehe. I guess there’s still time but I just don’t have that burning desire to get down to such study . Come to think of it a computer based “grammar-check” would be an amazing accessory to have but I guess it’d be almost impossible to come up with a decent one as it’d have to be so much more advanced than a basic “ spell-check .”All that aside, though, I was more concerned with responding to your post as best I could. Not quite sure how you did that, but you certainly did something! Actually, Moley, I first posted a rambling, disjointed, bullshit laden post which bore little resemblance to the one I came up with but deleted it within seconds. It just didn’t feel right, especially as I felt your posts were simple, to the point and sincere. Also, you brought up stuff I could relate to. I’ve considered it quite a lot but never really struggled with it to the extent you’ve obviously been doing recently. As always …regards to you both. -Dermot
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I'm wondering Moley, if it's the sense of belonging to a community that you're missing, being part of a group of like-minded, or like-spirituality-minded folks, as in premie communities. I just got a real strong sense of 'belonging' when talking to the proprieter. I 'know' its cos of my past spiritual-seeking phase ( a very long one!), but that doesn't make it any less real, or less convincing. Maybe ask yourself what was it you felt you were belonging to? Was it the man himself you were speaking to that made you feel good, attracted to him as a friend, or your own thoughts of what you believe his life to be like? Were you feeling lonely at the point you ran into him and felt some abatement of that feeling? Were you feeling nostalgic for premie communities of the past? Nostalgia can be quite a strong feeling, and recently I learned that nostalgia is a form of grieving. From time to time I do miss the strong feelings of belonging I used to get when I was part of a premie community. There were many good moments then, but now I think the feelings were of friendship and a closeness to other people, which is a basic human need. ...but what do we do about the 'spiritual' parts of our brain/memory/consciousness that we actually like being in? But can't fit into rational mindset? I'm gonna run the whole thing past my other half (being as how he's a psychologist), cos it's bugging me... When I have feelings that I can't fit into a rational mindset, I just don't try figure them out because feelings/emotions are a lot different than thinking. Feelings often don't make sense and personally, I don't think I need to be figuring out what all my feelings are all about anymore. I've done enough of that for one life, so now it's time to kick back and enjoy what I enjoy. Nature plays a big part of that for me. It's not necessary for me to rationally understand all the feelings I have as a human woman, except for the feelings that confuse me, or cause me to feel bad. Those I want to understand. But, everyone is different. I never was on a spiritual search for anything in my life, as you were, so maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. When I first ran into premies, I was looking to figure out why I felt a strong feeling of longing for something, (a desire to belong somewhere I suppose). The community friendships filled that need at the time. Now I'm pretty sure it was love, acceptance, and friendship that I wanted, and humans are the only ones capable of providing it -- except for my cat and the wild things in nature I see daily...
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Mar 05, 2006, 12:56:24
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Lots to think about. I wasn't feeling lonely when I met the buddhist, nor was I nostalgic for a spiritual community. I am actually a bit allergic to group-consciousness ( premie-land only one sort of group-consciousness I've developed an aversion to). But maybe I was feeling some sort of 'lack'. (Or, rather, not feeling something?) I guess I do figure out my feelings (or try to!). It's been really interesting reading these replies to my post, as I'm beginning to realise how not everyone has the same drive to rationalise, and figure out, and label, their 'inner states'. Not that I want to rationalise a lot of 'woman' stuff I feel - I am quite happy to be an 'irrational' woman (!). On the feeling front, it's just the 'spiritual ' stuff I try to figure out. Yeh, you seem to have got into the cult for different motivations than me. When I got into Rawatland, I was 'spiritually seeking' big-style. I already was in a community - of hippy folk - and already had a strong sense of belonging, so none of that stuff drove me to Rawat. It was pure spiritual seeking ( if that isn't a contradiction in terms!). Well - I truly landed myself in it, didn't I? Went from wanting to be the first woman vicar, through Krishna worship, and then to Rawat!
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This is a lovely thread to read Moley.Thankyou for starting it. Sorry, I'm not up to replying at the moment. Lexy. P.S. I would love to read a reply from Susan.Where are you,Susan!
Modified by Lexy at Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 06:01:45
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Boy do I love to be wanted. All smiles
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Thanks Lexy. I like talking about this stuff. And where better to do it than here, with a bunch of folks who were so into the 'spiritual path', but have 'come out the other end' to arrive at wierd and wonderful destinations with their integrity intact.
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I don't think a human can look at itself as an object. I mean of course: I can't look at myself as an object. I have to look at myself as an object that looks at itself. That bit- the "I am looking at myself" bit is capable of differentiation within itself, at the same time as the other "I am looking at an object " faculty/bit differentiates in its own specific arena. One changes as the other does and vica versa. There are new things and states to be discovered/felt/created. Blatent bootstrapping. As I see it there is no limit on what the reflective part of me (congruent as it is of course with the empirical part) can become. With attention over the years since exing, it is becoming many things it wasn't before. I think the guru/authority used to occupy/guard that faculty to create yourself that I am floundering to pinpoint above! We never really got a chance to spread your own wings there with our self creative faculty. He was always present. I like my surprising discoveries about myelf since reneging my one great all-eggs-in-your-basket please contract with the Perfect Maha. He should have had the decency to refuse my reckless offer. I would, if any one ever came near me with such an intention of self abandonment. It does happen in small ways. Now I don't know what is becoming of me, but I know I am doing it to, for, and in creation of ..myself. Love Bryn
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And I am having a very hard time describing my feelings on it. I have had phases since I left I have gone through. I have always felt since I became a premie at 13 and I had no prior religous upringing that my brain is sort of "stuck with" some of the pathways and ways of thinking about spirituality I learned as a premie. Sometimes I feel I can't look at another religous or spiritual way of thinking without trying to fit it into one of the templates I learned as a premie. For example, in 2001 I began attending an Episcopal Church and went to some classes there to learn about it. This was a huge leap for me. To me, the services at the church feel "safe" as an ex premie. The music, the ritual are all very dissimilar to anything at a satsang. There is nothing in the priests sermon that sounds "singsongy" or that someone is trying to convert me to a certain viewpoint. One thing I noticed in the classes was that people were all over the place in what they believed and that questioning was encouraged and that by questioning or bringing up sincere doubts no one was stigmatized. I remember a sort of confusion with it. So no one is really sure? What are we doing here anyway? But its incredibly preferable to people saying they KNOW something they obviously don't. ...........I have no idea if that was helpful or relatable. Thing is I have drifted away from that little church I liked for a lot of reasons. Mostly I think because the children's program I liked had some issues that seemed insurmountable. ( In case you are curious, nothing about the church, just a group of kids with a lot of behavior problems that don't seem to be leaving anytime soon, my child was learning stuff, words etc from them I don't need him exposed to ) But more directly in response to Moley's experience, when it comes to spiritual stuff I am sometimes as repelled as I am attracted. Once I went to an exercise class where they were using "Chi Balls" and when they teacher started talking seriously about New Agey stuff I was just so revolted I left mid class. Yet, certain things like Indian food, patchouli or hippie clothes give me that warm oatmeal feeling of nostalgia and safety. Then there are the songs. When I turned on some of the links to old songs I was absolutely revolted. But I used to occaisionally find myself humming a tune and found them comforting. Like they are hitting different pathways in my brain and memory. As you say, Atheism is logical. Logic is what got me out of the Maharaj Ji mess. So thinking about spirituality purely with logic seems to me the only safe path. But I would go back to my little church happily if I could make my son sit in the big service or I would go alone without a problem. It seems to satisfy something for me. But as to whether I will ever be able to really embrace it like I might have if I had never been a premie I doubt it. As to whether that is ultimately good or bad, that I am unable to wholeheartedly embrace anything spiritual, that I am unsure of.
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I don't know if you ever read this piece by Michael Lagone, Ph.D., who is a cult exiting counselor and expert. Langone is a good man. It's called: Letter to a Former Member of a Meditation Group. I posted the entire letter on the F8, so I'm just going to link it this time for you, Moley and anyone else who may benefit from it. (If you like it, make sure you save it as a favorite, because that website is difficult to navigate.) I love it and it's helped me understand lots of things about myself, both now as an adult, and when trying to read it from the perspective of what I was like as an immature 22 year old (or parts thereof), falling for Maharaji. Love, Cynthia
Related link: CSJ - Lagone Letter
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 12:09:20
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That is one of the most meaningful things I have ever read about post cult life. I am so glad you thought to post it I will be saving that one. Susan
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Modified by Lexy at Mon, Mar 06, 2006, 18:21:37
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Thanks from me too, that was really interesting. Do you fancy reposting the link as a new thread? I like discussing these things, especially when women join in, as I do feel we have a drive to be emotionally connected to something that maybe some (but not all!) men miss.
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Thanks for your imput, Susan. You got K very young. I can't imagine what that must have been like. I was mid-twenties when I got it, and had been a Christian as a kid, and then got into Buddha and Krishna (and hallucinogenic drugs!) before i 'found' Rawat. So I don't connect spiritually with Rawatland particularly. But having rejected all other religions in favour of Rawat, I am now left with a feeling that any religion would be 'going backwards'. When you say... Yet, certain things like Indian food, patchouli or hippie clothes give me that warm oatmeal feeling of nostalgia and safety. I can relate to that. Nige thinks that that was the basis of my 'experience' in the Tibetan Buddhist shop... he may be right. I dunno. Still trying to figure it out.
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