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My experience of M at the moment is that he is a very dangerous individual. I think that this site is too complacent in how it deals with M. Hi, ISOT! I disagree that Rawat is a 'very dangerous individual'. Sure he stills holds some people in his power, and is a danger to unsuspecting potential followers, but for an ex-premie who walks away from him and his so-called teachings he should represent no further danger at all. I don't know you so I could be wrong but I suspect you still invest him with some power over you. If you are doing this telling you to stop might be useless, but I'll do it anyway. STOP INVESTING HIM WITH POWER OVER YOU!  Regarding this forum, it's just somewhere to have a chat - that's all. John.
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Hi Insearch.
In many ways it's safer to be here. We know you're ok, you can sound any alarms, and if you check in regularly, your continuing safety is publically observed.
If you get a weird phone call, or whatever, post it here.
For this reason I suggest you keep regular contact (and I suppose inadvertently suggest to ourselves to maintain regular contact). Absence is more worrying.
It is its transparancy which typifies openness and for that matter enlightened consciousness. The light of day is no place for the survival of scams, no matter how devious their devisers.
Let the net take the strain, it always feels good to know once and for all, come hell or high water, where we stand. Sometimes stating our observations in the clear light of reason, coming out with it, is a commitment to ourselves, there's no turning back, no begging for grace. "Never will I allow that blindfold to come down over my eyes again." (To quote a future song.)
Take advantage of this blank piece of paper the world reads.
If he is dangerous, then he is not a benefactor. Drop the whole package. Nothing is worth living life like a cowed dog. Better, a day spent walking upright in the sun, but I wish you, and all, a long and healthy life, happily, recovered from this subtle but penetrating affliction.
It feels good to be true to something that can remotely be called the truth again, I must admit, I was beginning to forget how that felt. Nice to be part of a real noble cause. Coming out is a bit like going to the dentist, better behind you. But no point unless you're aching to.
Ananda Giri.
Modified by Saph at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 06:38:50
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I'm not sure what you want out of this forum because you post desperate-sounding thoughts on occasion, then you ignore the responses. As John said, Maharaji only has as much power over you that you allow him to have. The fact is that he doesn't have any powers, special or otherwise. I don't even consider him a "madman" whatever that means. Maybe your problems (as you describe them) are far more serious than could ever be solved by posting on a forum like this one. I recommend you get some medical assessments as soon as possible and see if someone in the real world can help you resolve these disturbing thoughts. You also might want to consider if it is something else (besides your involvement with the cult) that is making you feel so ill. That's what I did. FYI, a forum like this is for back and forth conversations to take place, not hit and run posts that are virtually identical every time, as yours are. Sincerely, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 08:14:13
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>Really Cyntia I am really only posting here because i >really need help >In my search for truth I have come to believe that there >are bad spirits in the world >There is no reason to believe that there is not a devil in >the world >I agree entirely that I need help in the world, but that is >not as simple as it seems. And as you look for such help >you find that things are very droll >Hey I have been in a cult for 35 years can you please help >It doesent exist >I really apreciate your replies here If I dont answer it is >just me >I really take everything on board INSOT
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ISOT,Please seriously consider the possibility that there are no bad spirits, and that the pain you are suffering is simply pain. Be honest, you don't know for certain whether there are or not, so ask yourself which is better to believe - there are, or there aren't? Life can be a lot simpler than you make out. John.
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Why not try to follow up your requests with explanations of the sort of help you need.
No one here who would not rush to find words or helpful suggestions if they had a clearer picture of your problem.
As for "no reason to believe there is not a devil," why not leave out the "not"
No reason to believe there is a devil.
There are always natural disasters, of course, but the rest of earth's problems can be quite plainly traced back to mankind. We are learning lessons. We just learnt a huge group lesson about making gurus of people.
But really, you should get involved in conversation more. Just letting us waffle on until we get the impression you're not there is a bit unfair.
Modified by Saph at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 17:56:57
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Hi Saph How are you >Your question> 'What sort of help do you need' I find >interesting >and the whole thing rests on that >If you believe that there is a hell, then that is where I >am >that is what this K has done to me >i have tried to push for answers here in the past as >much as I can >I make the following statement >'I am not mad' >Yet what is happening in my life is mad >Think of the series ...The Twilight Zone, ......That might >give you an idea >People here only seem to discuss worldy things >M's women, M's Champaign,M's Cigars ETc >I dont believe that prems who practised k did not have >exoierences outside the normal reality >and are not grapeling with them here, which to me is >what this whole thing is all about >If it was a matter of ...'Walking'....you would if you .looked only see the dust on the horizon >And as an aside I am bursting for answers >Anyway over to you INSOT
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Thanks Insearch. for getting back again,
It's personal really, I get quite involved in posts like yours and like to know that you will keep coming back. I have a lot on for a few hours, (chimney sweep coming).
Obviously there is so much, its hard to know where to begin. The word deconstruct is a nice one to dwell upon here. All these bits tangled together seem so interconnected it's like a chinese puzzle in the shape of a very badly built hut.
But we have no choice but to dismantle it, piece by piece,
Pick one plank, carefully disentangle it, and look at it. Then, later, another. Just a thought. 
be back in a bit
Hope to communicate more, don't forget all the email adresses you have, for more personal subjects.
Lp
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It was a trait of this cult and others to propagate the belief that the world is not real.
Whether or not this is ultimately, in futures true, it is clear that the physical material nature around us, relative to our own experience, and relevant to our life here, exists.
Not accepting this very relevant fact, relative to our life, leaves us looking for what is real, relative to our life.
Perhaps it is from here that the pandora's box of gods and goblins, good and evil spirits is born.
There is no neutralising ray, other than to stand and know that the evil spirit is not real, it works, because it is not. But in doing so there is erosion in the substance of belief.
One would have had to have stood on solid ground to dispel the devil, or the belief in evil as a self existant entity or power.
These things are exhausting and recovering one notices a bad taste in the mouth. There is something about one's battle with evil which took bites from the trunk of the tree in which Maharaji and his believers live.
Who were we if only in our dreams to stand our ground and stare the devil down. We should be ashamed, only Maharaji can do that.
And after a while, when the wind blows, the tree of beliefs sways more violently as the wind finds the weakness in the trunk we made ourselves.
Weakening beliefs, we have weakened our guru! Fighting the devil we fought a piece of him. We eroded the belief in the insubstantial nature of the world and substantiating the invisible imaginary worlds we make up with our expectations and our fears, and in so doing undermined his hold on us.
But, after our exile and in the weakness of our despair, there stands a simple fact, we had been made blind to. Look closely. The link is greater than that. The link is the thread of evil that runs through both, that is how we had, in someway, insulted our guru, in only doing our human duty. Our resistance of the devil is the resistance of Maharaji. See this once and take some comfort in resisting one and both with all your might. Stop believing in them and watch, with delight, as they shrivel, dry up and blow away.
Modified by Saph at Wed, Nov 22, 2006, 08:13:10
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And I understand that the more experiences of that type you have, the more sensitive and open to those kinds of experiences you are.
And that while having those kind of experiences if you then realize that M is actually a nasty piece of work, then it is going to send those experiences into an even weirder space.
Time for some grounding I would say.
It might not get talked about much here, but a number of people have had experiences that are hard to explain by normal reality logic.
But the ones who are here by and large seem to have come to the conclusion that the best way of dealing with it is to get grounded first, whether that is by counselling or any other form of grounding.
Much easier to make rational judgements if you are grounded, otherwise you are just playing into his hands, and investing your power onto him still.
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I heard this great radio program on 4 that put some of my experiences in perspective.
Even if you don't have time to listen to the whole thing, try listening to the first couple of minutes at least - hilarious!
If you hit the link below, you get a listing of radio programs - click on 'Am I normal?'.
Related link: Am I normal?
Modified by 13 at Thu, Nov 23, 2006, 01:55:01
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Thanks 13, The BBC at its best, IMO. I loved that line where the woman says she managed to get more disciples than the real Jesus. (Hey, was Jesus delusional too...?) And just looking at all those Radio 4 programmes makes you realise what an amazing institution BBC radio is. I'm not sure how many other countries have anything like it: great news analysis, documentaries, disucussions, drama, humour etc. and *no adverts*. I'd highly recommend non-UK posters to have a listen.
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....you could almost sing Arti to it.
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Contains the immortal idea: "If you can persuade other people to think the same odd things as you, you are in a cult;if you think wierd things on your own, you're psychotic".
Their research seems to suggest that the key factor in defining "madness" is not so much what you think, as how you feel while you think it.
Insearchoftruth, may I suggest you stick around here,and contribute a post or two as and when you feel like it.
Love
Bryn
Modified by bryn at Thu, Nov 23, 2006, 15:24:59
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Thought the whole programme was fascinating, especially the way they are realizing that irrationality is a regular part of the human condition, on a continuum from minimal to a major part of a life.
Also that there is no shame in being irrational, and that it is only a problem when you are over focusing on the dilemmas it brings to the detriment of your life, so the grounding thing will fit especially if you don't wish to take the standard approaches and give up your reality model, although that is a lot tougher route without proper support, and could be more dangerous to mental health.
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ISOT, I understand why you would feel that a discussion about Rawat's love of luxury would not offer much help in your 'search'. However I would urge you to consider that a source of your current distress is that you are looking away from the 'world' for answers - and frankly that's the wrong direction. Rawat's cigars are of course not likely to be a helpful issue for you to pursue but I don't believe that so long as you tie yourself up in philosophical knots that you are going to get to a place where you feel better. Whatever philosophical or religious or moral direction you feel you have to take in the long term, in my opinion , NOW you have to give up all these grand constructions and for a time at least just live an ordinary life. And if living an ordinary life is painful - seek ordinary help, from ordinary friends, ordinary family, ordinary health professionals or ordinary counsellors. Just like any other member of our species has to do. Nik
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I second everything Nik has said. Grandiosity and feeling like everything you are experiencing has to be special and apart from the rest of humanity is part of the cult indoctrination. It leads to the spiritual arrogance you encounter in most premies. Immersing yourself in everyday life is definitely the way to deconstruct it all, not searching for better spiritual paths straight away. Enjoy the little things of life, and take pleasure in them, there is no guilt in doing so. Go see good films, cook beautiful meals, take walks in the country, go to concerts, etc. Take a holiday that doesn't involve going to see him. There is a lot of pleasure to be had in living an ordinary life, and enjoying this creation. That's what worked for me. Best of luck,
Joy P.S. I don't mean over-indulgence in vices, just treat yourself, and the world with respect, and enjoy it all. For so long Rawat has told us it's all "maya", empty, mind, etc. Not true! (all the while, of course, indulging in the best of everything for himself)
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I don't believe that prems who practiced k did not have experiences outside the normal reality and are not grappeling with them here, which to me is what this whole thing is all about.....bursting for answers..
This sounds like something I would like to hear more about from you, if you feel inclined to enlarge upon it.
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I just though I'd edit the last quote of yours I borrowed, without loss of meaning. It's just that it contains those oddly premie double negatives.
"I don't believe that prems who
practiced k did not have experiences outside the normal reality and are
not grappeling with them here, which to me is what this whole thing is
all about."
I.E. "I believe that prems who practiced k had experiences outside the normal reality and are grappeling with them here, which to me is what this whole thing is all about."
If you believe that, then why don't you grapple here more? I wondered.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sun, Nov 26, 2006, 02:32:27
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>Do you still meditate?
>Do you drink too much?
>Do you smoke dope?
>Do you live alone?
>Do you have a job?
>If it's ' yes' to the 1st 4, & ' no' to the last, then I'd suggest stopping no1 immediately.
>K isn't the solution & never has been.
>If I'm barking up the wrong tree, apologies.
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Hello again, ISOT, In my search for truth I have come to believe that there >are bad spirits in the world >There is no reason to believe that there is not a devil in >the world Do you still believe in Santa Claus? The Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny? I doubt that you do. For the same reasons you no longer believe in those childhood myths you can stop believing in the myths of devils and evil spirits existing. They don't. It's as simple as that. So much emphasis is placed on the mind being so bad in the cult, and after 35 years, you're mind is probably like a dormant, dry sponge. What I suggest you do is start reading books, watching tv, going to movies, and socialize with people. You need to learn where you end and other people begin. We're not all one "universal consciousness!" We are individual people and each of us can decide our futures. From there, you need to claim as your own (not Maharaji's!) the space you occupy as an ordinary human being living in the world. Have you stopped meditating? I don't remember if you answered this when I asked you last time. Don't meditate anymore for a few years. Meditation is not good for you, especially if you're feeling as spacey as your posts sound when I read them. I really apreciate your replies here If I dont answer it is >just me >I really take everything on board I understand that you're scared to work on your own healing from Rawat's cult. That's normal. What's not normal is not picking yourself up and doing everything it takes to make yourself feel better. Mind you, it's not going to happen overnight because the fact is that there aren't any mix and stir remedies for the ups and downs in life -- especially when one has big emotional problems. So, it's really up to you to make yourself better. I'm more than willing to give you all the support I can, but not if you aren't willing to communicate with me. I'll tell you a story. I've been through a lot of psychotherapy and group therapies. In group therapy there were always some people who participated in the group therapy, and some who said nothing but just occupied their chairs sighing and looking bored. Why? Because some people are just lazy and don't want to do the hard work it takes to heal themselves from emotional and psychological problems. The funny thing about those "chair-sitters" is tht they were always the people who complained the most about how boring and unhelpful the group therapy was, and the ones that talked (about whatever it was they were working on) were the people who benefitted the most. You're not going to be helped by anyone unless you open yourself up to other people. I realize it's not easy to learn to trust people so you can try that a little at a time. Rome wasn't built in a day. I'm not saying you're never going to feel pain again because you will, but I can almost guarantee that if you let some of the pain out of yourself by talking, crying, laughing, typing posts here, getting exercise outdoors with fresh air, and getting some non-premie contact, that some of the pain you're feeling will slowly start releasing itself. So, it's really up to you to make decisions about your own life. Nobody, especially the devil, evil spirits and definitely not Knowledge and Maharaji have any control or power over you anymore. It's truely a wonderful place to begin living again. You can start from scratch! How fortunate! But, first you have to decide to help yourself by taking some small, but realistic steps toward good health. Best, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Nov 22, 2006, 14:23:44
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I sometimes wonder why I ever bother to post here when others such as yourself can say it so much better.Very excellently stated, wise woman!
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Modified by PatD at Wed, Nov 22, 2006, 19:59:30
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As I have read more and more of your posts, I really respect your thought process. You are compassionate to a fault when needed, and when it looks like people may just be using you/manipulating on this forum, you are upfront. I actually am begining to wonder if this person, insearchoftruth, is just yanking us around. (Your observation of no movement or action speakly loudly.) The tone of his/her posts just dosen't seem to ring as true as they did the first few times. However, if by some chance, I have missjudged, I am willing to hear more. (oops, I got a thumbs down instead of up.....cannot edit...was mean't to be an attaboy to Cynthia) Stephen B
Modified by Stephenb at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 16:28:07
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(oops, I got a thumbs down instead of up.....cannot edit...was mean't to be an attaboy to Cynthia)
(-- still works!)
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Hi Stephen, That's funny. The thumbs down. I don't have any information about ISOT's intentions here and I'm not accusing them of anything. But, sometimes I do get tired of his/her long, endless sigh of pain. Like my Mother always toldl me: If you're tired, sleep; if you're bored do something; if you feel too fat, stop eating so much; and if you're sad, do something good for yourself.
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It's no wonders people got and get messed up for having been in this cult. Prem Rawat is a mind abuser and nothing more. Get or find the help that you need. Forgive yourself too. Be your own best friend, without the mind abusing scam. Yet... please remember Prem Rawat is not the devil, he is just a greedy conman. Who got filthy rich playing god. Best Thoughts, I hope you get the help that you seem to need... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Tue, Nov 21, 2006, 03:33:44
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Great deal huh? We try to get more and more pure and humble so as to be able, at last, to surrender to "he who gets less and less pure and humble".
yep!... getting rich selling air.
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Dear ISOT,I'm glad you posted again. Keep coming back when you can. Normally I would encourage people to come out under their real name, as it lends more authority to our statements and arguments against Rawat and also helps people be clearer in themselves that they are well and truly free of the cult. However, in your case perhaps you should wait a bit until you are really confident and comfortable about no longer being a follower of Rawat. If you have premie friends, you don't want to find yourself in discussions or arguments with them, which would add additional stress and emotional trauma right when you don't need it. I wouldn't worry much about Rawat being a devil. Basically, he's just nothing and nobody other than who we gave him power to be. The longer you are away from him, the more you will see this. If you try and make him out to be evil, he will still be a powerful force in your life, just a negative one. Try your best to forget him. Come here and chat with us as often as you like, there's lots to talk about and nobody's going away. Welcome to the rest of your life, it only gets better from now on (even though it often doesn't seem like it). Take care,
Joy P.S. Have you tried talking to your local vicar or priest for counselling? That would be free and they can be very understanding. I went to see a "cult counselor" after first leaving, and it was very helpful, helped me step back and see the group and my involvement much more clearly. It was hard to see it as a cult at first, because of the heavy indoctrination about it being the only way to experience Truth, Maharaji being the Lord of the Universe, etc. But listening to people from other cults talk about their groups, I could see similar situations and dynamics with the other supposed God-incarnates (Rev. Moon etc.) and it was a real eye-opener to understand we weren't so special or different after all, just caught up in a garden-variety cult.
Modified by Joy at Wed, Nov 22, 2006, 01:10:30
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