tommo wasn't such a fringe premie
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Posted by:
ocker ®

11/19/2006, 15:01:12
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tommo did regular service, therefore tommo was one of the minority of premies who do, at least that would be the case in Australia.

tommo in your list of 'drips' you didn't mention what is probably the most contentious point for long time ex-premies, at least it is for me. That is the revisionism of the history of DLM/EV and Prem Rawat in which EV claims that Prem never claimed to be a divine incarnation and all the premies were simply mistaken about him because they were too unsophisticated to understand that this whole Lord of the Universe, Guru is Greater than God, "If you have a Perfect Master all you can do is worship him", foot-kissing stuff was just Indian cultural baggage that Prem Rawat certainly didn't mean literally even if he had said it which he didn't and if you have video clips of him saying it then we'll sue or it was just lila or you're in you mind so get over it! Some of the snider premies even claim that they, in fact, knew that all along.

Were you aware of this at any time during the last 10 or 15 years?






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Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie
Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- ocker Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
tommo ®

11/19/2006, 16:58:38
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Hello Ocker,

'Wow..a whole thread on my confessions!'.

Yes fair comment...I probably did give it a 'fair try' and especially over the last few years.   I saw myself as 'fringe' because, despite practising most days, I really didn't know or mix with many other premies;  and also because of not having such a level  of experience as to make me feel really comfortable or clear about propogation (which I assumed somebody must be).  i.e. it’s a good test.  If you are going to intrude on others with your belief and possibly influence them then you have to be very sure…at least I do or I feel uncomfortable (e.g. felt deeply ambivalent about taking my kids along).    I assumed that the other premies that led this activity had a different level of experience and confidence.  6 months ago I interpreted this failure as ‘not trying hard enough’….  Now  as ‘It doesn’t really work in real life’

Anyway. it is a good question that you raise about the revisionism ...as a typical, indeed active, member of the species premie ca 2006 ...did it bother me?  ..and if not why not? 

I must say that it didn't   ..which is odd because I was there at Kissimee and the rest.. I can only see now how strange it all was.    I just passively lapped up videos like 'Remembrance' or 'Passages' and just thought how great it all was and how fortunate I was.  Probably like most long term premies  I felt privileged that to 'know' that 'Rawat' was so much more than an 'Inspirational Speaker' and therefore always tacitly saw it as a change in presentation rather than in the underlying reality.   If the change in emphasis was necessary in order for him to reach more people then so be it.  The words change but in fact the whole trip around ‘the master’ and ‘the knowledge’ remain the same.  He is still the unquestioned and unquestionable ‘authority’ and it is still ‘that’ knowledge and ‘that’ place.  I would not personally give any credence to any long term premie who claimed that they ‘always knew’ that darshan, arti and all the rest of it  were make believe and that an inspirational speaker would eventually emerge from the chrysalis.  Actions speak far louder than words.  You don’t hang on someone’s every word,  attend endless hours of DVDs, practice their teachings every day, try to ‘participate’ in their work,  travel the world just to be ‘in their (distant) physical presence’ for a few precious hours  unless you are in a de facto religion with Rawat as the main man.  Private unspoken religion remains the core that fuels ‘Rawatism’.   Gopis still jostle to be near the front.  When I exited I wrote a note to my local community explaining my feelings, my discovery of EPO  and questioning whether or not other people knew ‘this stuff’ already.  Amongst the replies one person …apart from likening EPO to the Sun newspaper asked whether or not ‘ I had simply been in a religion these past 30 years’.   I replied that I didn’t know.. but probably had been.   I think that is about the size of it Ocker,…  blinkered belief ever more disconnected with real experience and bolstered by familiarity, comfort, a sense of security and intellectual laziness. 

Best

Tim

 






Modified by tommo at Sun, Nov 19, 2006, 17:09:52

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Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
ocker ®

11/19/2006, 18:14:23
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I'm probably more interested in how premies actually thought and felt because I exited back circa 1980 but have been married to a premie and so I've maintained contact without belief and I've been astonished (and horrified) how the movement has moved in the last 25 years.

Obviously it was a change in presentation without a (false) reality change and most of those few premies with which I discussed my outlook on what I saw as lies and deceit saw it the same as you did. But of course he isn't  "reaching" more people. Did you think about how the post-70's message was obviously not working and so what was the point of the false presentation? Did you believe the phony statistics showing how he was always preaching to more people and more and more people were being taught the "techniques of Knowledge" but premie numbers had seriously declined since 1980? Of course numbers seem to have remained pretty well the same in Britain over the last 10 years judging by the donations. How did you see the numbers over the last 10 years?

Thanks for your answers






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Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- ocker Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

11/20/2006, 08:02:24
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I would say the significant point is that Tim felt that he was a 'fringe' premie even though others may have considered him 'involved.

My guess is that this is a very common feeling amongst premies simply because there is no centre to 'the movement'. Apart from a very few 'empowered'  individuals I think pretty much every premie sees themselves as being only on the 'periphery of Prem's mission. There maybe stuff happening - but it all happens 'somewhere else'.

It's a disasterous way to run an organisation, although clearly in EV's case it serves a purpose as indeed, the all important donations stream is being maintained. This though I'd suggest is achieved through ever greater reliance on the 'major donor's, something which only serves to further alienate those on 'the fringe'.

Nik







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Exactly, Nik...
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- Nik Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

11/20/2006, 08:17:34
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How can somone feel they are a part of an organization like Elan Vital, when they contend there is nothing to join?  EV is a "minimal organization" run by "skeleton crews" that have no members.

It's designed to make people continuously feel off-balance, non-participatory, disenfranchised, and useless.  That's the Maharaji way.






Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 08:18:35

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Re: There are new local orgs now
Re: Exactly, Nik... -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
ocker ®

11/20/2006, 15:15:03
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When I last had some sort of contact with what was going on locally the situation was that each local community (at least here in Oztralia) had to create a non-profit organisation that had to get registered and get insurance cover for any "public programs" or are they also called events now? These had to have promoting the message of peace of Prem Rawat as their reason to be but did not have names that would be associated with Elan Vital necessarily.

I actually think Rawat would prefer to have organisations staffed by thousands of incredibly enthusiastic blissful premies dedicated to serving the Lord and shouting his praises and working to create world peace in his glory but as that is just a pipe dream he's got to settle for what's available. There are still a fair few "church lady" premies out there and as one said to me last year when I asked her if she still thought propagation was ever going to take off: "I live in hope!"






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Re: There are new local orgs now
Re: Re: There are new local orgs now -- ocker Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

11/20/2006, 16:58:56
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The Oz regulatory system makes it easy to set up these local scale entities and still get some tax relief. In the UK Charity Registration is the only route for tax relief, although any group of three or more individuals can set up an Association without needing to register anywhere.

Of course letting premies set up their own local organisation runs the risk of some overexcited church lady claiming publicly that Rawat has addressed the UN.

Nik







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Re: Exactly, Nik...
Re: Exactly, Nik... -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
tommo ®

11/20/2006, 17:36:58
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while leveraging as much of people's skills and time as possible for minimal financial outlay...

--------------------------------------------------------------

As we prepare to invite Maharaji to the UK next year & with so much outreach activity starting to happen, many opportunities to participate are opening up and are listed below.
Please respond directly to the relevant person if you want to volunteer.

Project Teams & Managers

There are several projects with which we need help.
IT Management
General Marketing
Internet Marketing
Public Relations & Publicity

Contact Steve Brenman steve@deepb.com">steve@deepb.com with details of relevant experience and contact details


Students Wanted

Calling anyone who is at university now, or graduated within the last 6 years. We need your help…

Contact Steve Brenmansteve@deepb.com">steve@deepb.com


Urgent Help Needed Distributing Materials/DVD's etc
North/North East and SE London

A few hours at a time each week
No experience necessary- just time

Contact Dave Mackie dave.mackie11@btinternet.com">dave.mackie11@btinternet.com
or FC


UK Event Set Up - Help Required

Are you keen & committed, physically fit, mobile, reliable and available for 2 or 3 days at a time. Other on-going projects
within productions also available.
Skills required vary from simple labouring to professional knowledge in related event set up areas

Contact: Nigel Goss 01424 777822shed.nj@virgin.net">shed.nj@virgin.net


Help needed for London Events and other London Projects

Lots to do including:
Venue Research
Ushering
Finance
Event organising
MC
A/V
Driving
If you have relevant skills, let us know but training will be provided as needed.

Contact: Richard Nash rnash747@hotmail.com">rnash747@hotmail.com
or
Helena Brown 0208 761 3049 helena@bobbrown.demon.co.uk">helena@bobbrown.demon.co.uk


Ushering at main events with Maharaji
Requirement


Enthusiasm and willingness to work as a team.
Ability to give good customer care.
Punctual
English speaking
Good communication skills

Ushering training will be provided

Contact : Mina Vadher 01509 219259minav@fedup8.freeserve.co.uk">minav@fedup8.freeserve.co.uk


Reaching for Excellence

The European KSCT is responsible for activities related to KS & KR in Europe. With the great possibility of more people asking Maharaji for Knowledge, we are looking to expand the team in order to operate more effectively.

Below are the specific roles which we are looking to expand. If you have the necessary skills, have the availability and the willingness, then we would like to hear from you.

For all of these roles, there would be an induction period to help you assess if you are suited to this area of participation.

For further information and to register your interest, please contact the named individual. Please respond by 30 November 2006.

Basic Requirements for all roles:

Effective team player
Competent in communicating effectively in English (written & spoken)
A home computer on which you can safely store information without accessibility for a third party
Good computer skills: MS Word, MS Excel, FirstClass, Internet/Email
Availability:
o Able to attend a 5 day international training
o Able to attend & plan a 3 day re-certification every 6 months in Europe

COACH:
Contact: Mitesh Desai via: FC Email: mitz.desai@btopenworld.com">mitz.desai@btopenworld.com

Within the KS area, there is an emphasis on continuous improvement and reaching for excellence. As such, the coaching role involves coaching the KS Team members (i.e. conductors, operators and Key 6 Facilitators). The coach provides support so that a KST member can construct a learning plan and also reach their learning objectives, which aim to help them perform their role with excellence. We are aiming to provide a coaching: KST member ratio of 1:5 to permit effective coaching. At this moment, we are looking to find 6 coaching candidates.
This role is subject to an induction period.

Required:

Experience related to coaching - ideally in a work environment but may also be in terms of
other activities eg., volunteer activities, leisure
Excellent organisational skills
Availability: 4-5 hours/week

Desirable:

Able to construct training / re-certification modules
Able to successfully deliver a training module
Competent in communicating in another European language

ASSESSOR
Contact: Sheila Jane Malley via FC

The assessment function is debriefing and evaluation of KS Team members - this evaluation takes place on a regular basis after Knowledge events. The assessor role also works to help KS Team members develop their own ability to assess their performance. We are aiming to provide an assessor to KST member ratio of 1:8. Currently we are looking for 2 assessment candidates. This role is subject to an induction period.

Required:

Experience of assessment, performance appraisal or coaching in a professional context
Sensitivity, very good communication and listening skills
Availability: 4-5 hours/week

PLANNING & LOGISTICS
Contact: Beth Burrell via: FC Email beth.burrell1@btinternet.com">beth.burrell1@btinternet.com

The Logistics function co-ordinates Key 6 ( Knowledge Session & Review) proposals within the European region. This involves communicating and planning ahead with the many countries in Europe, in order to provide a schedule of Key 6 opportunities to anyone who, having prepared through the Keys, asks to receive Knowledge. This role also has an interface with the Key 6 facilitator team to schedule them appropriately. Logistics helps identify when new KS team members are needed to be trained. We are currently looking for someone who can learn every aspect of this role, and help implement the strategy & standards from 2007 onwards.

Required:

Some experience of managing projects/ teams
Ability to assess Keys data for planning purposes
Very good administrative & organisational skills
Availability: 8-10 hours/week







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Re: With the great possibility of more people asking Maharaji for knowledge
Re: Re: Exactly, Nik... -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Saph ®

11/20/2006, 18:07:29
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 more than what?  or just some more...






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Re: Exactly, Nik...
Re: Re: Exactly, Nik... -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
13 ®

11/21/2006, 01:42:46
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"Reaching for Excellence

The European KSCT is responsible for activities related to KS & KR in Europe..."


There used to be some idealistic hippie types having some fun. The suits have definitely taken over the asylum. Doesn't this sort of management speak completely deaden any inspiration to bring peace to the world?

Peace and truth has left the building.










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The suits have definitely taken over the asylum.
Re: Re: Exactly, Nik... -- 13 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Saph ®

11/21/2006, 01:52:25
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 Nice line, 13. I could try, but cannot promise not to use it again. It might just escape.






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Re: The suits have definitely taken over the asylum.
Re: The suits have definitely taken over the asylum. -- Saph Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
13 ®

11/21/2006, 03:50:56
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Thanks

There was always this push going on to make our presentations to the public more 'professional'. It was hard to present the Lord of the Universe professionally. Now that he has reincarnated into an inspirational speaker it looks as if professionalism has entirely won out. Boy, am I glad to be out of it all!






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Re: The suits have definitely taken over the asylum.
Re: Re: The suits have definitely taken over the asylum. -- 13 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Saph ®

11/21/2006, 03:58:36
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 Yeah, if I was put back there now I reckon I'd pop right back out like a squeezed orange pip.






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Management Message
Re: Re: Exactly, Nik... -- 13 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

11/21/2006, 06:20:03
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>Doesn't this sort of management speak completely deaden any inspiration to bring peace to the world?<

It depends what is meant by "bring peace to the world", as a slogan it's got huge market value. Prem's mission is certainly far more shaped by "The Inner Game of Tennis" and the Pascotto EOS brand than it is by anything Hans Ji might have intended.

As a 'religion that is not a religion' Elan Vital offers an attractive 'non philosophy' for signed up members of the 'management class'. And these A/B1 managerials are an attractive market segment for Rawat - plenty of cash, few inhibiting moral concerns and a competitive, intollerant view of detractors/competitors.

And who more fitting than 'managers' to take forward the Rawat vision from Knowledge lite to "Knowledge barely mentioned" - this from the Chief Suit himself chanelled by 'key person' Brenman:

Maharaji posed the question "Is it enough that people just want to listen and in doing so feel peace ?" The answer came loud and clear Yes ! Of course we clarify that there is Knowledge for those that want to take it further. But if people are satisfied and feeling peace by simply watching and listening to the message, then that's fine. (from sparkleintheeye)

Elan Vital is a church for Club Class players and a passive daytime TV proletariat -  a play worthy of Orwell, scripted by Ron Hubbard.

Nik







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Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- ocker Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
tommo ®

11/20/2006, 13:30:50
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Ocker, I think your early exit path is really the most common (of the maybe 20 or so people that I knew who received K around 73 not one is now left).   Most left quickly or sometime later on during the seventies.  I do wonder though how many found closure and may still half suspect that there was something in it  (which is something this forum and EPO helps with imo).

In answer to your questions... yes, the obvious futility and ineffectiveness of propogation versus the determinedly optimistic spin ...the ever lower turnouts etc were all drips for me.  I believed the big programme numbers in India (no reason not to?) but the obvious sham of the 'prestige' events did puzzle me.  My impression of the UK is that numbers have steadily fallen this past 10-15 years  ..my guess of the situation now.. a core of ~ 1000 (i.e like me) and maybe anything up to a couple of thousand  occasionals?  Anyway it will all be different next year apparently ...  after the 'avalanche' and the next big push .   One comment I had is that 'world peace' is 'not our business'.  Thus I believe that some premies simply see it all as being about their own inner peace and don't care at all whether it all works or fails. 

all the best

Tim






Modified by tommo at Mon, Nov 20, 2006, 14:42:21

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Re: No reason not to
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
ocker ®

11/20/2006, 15:21:22
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Well you could hardly blame any premies for giving up on world peace by now. I remember hearing one thing Rawat said maybe 20 years back. He claimed he'd already brought Peace to the World cause there were premies on every continent so his job was done and now he could just retire.

As you say no reason to suspect those Indian numbers. Exactly what the people at the programs think is something we'll probably never know. It's a shame that the Rawat brothers seem to have come to a "I won't mention you if you don't mention me" modus operandi else we'd probably hear all the Indian dirt being thrown around publicly.

Western followers give Indian gurus lots of credibility and I guess Rawat's helicoptering and Western technology must help as well.

'Remembrance' is a new one to me. Do you have a copy?







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Re: No reason not to
Re: Re: No reason not to -- ocker Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
tommo ®

11/21/2006, 18:08:34
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Hello Ocker

Yes ..afraid that I do!  1996 production ..18 minute video of snapshots from M's early years in the West...1971-1974

What will you offer?  Ticket to the second Ashes test in Adelaide possibly? 

best

Tim







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Re: Maybe we could discuss this by email
Re: Re: No reason not to -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
ocker ®

11/21/2006, 19:07:54
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That is an excellent post Tommo.
Re: Re: tommo wasn't such a fringe premie -- tommo Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
lexy ®

11/21/2006, 03:25:28
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........with much that reflects my own experience.I exed 2 and a half years ago after reading EPO and Mike's site.

I wonder if I once knew you ? South London ?

You explain so well how blinkered we were about the revisionism......although I did notice it in those various videos and started to feel puzzled.I think by that time I was so used to justifying the completely bonkers presumptions we were supposed to hold regarding the Lord and Knowledge,and never leaving room for doubt in my mind that I had simply given up trying to rationalize anything around the whole circus.

I was totally oblivious to ex-premies,premie cyber attacks on ex-premies and so on.Anything like that was completely beyond the reaches of my imagination.

It's amazing ,once I had the information,how quickly the whole thing unravels.However I think the the sweeping out of the dark corners of the legacy of over 30 years in that culty religion may take a long time.

Many thanks for your clear,grounded and honest posts and very warm wishes to you Tim.

Lexy.   







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Re: That is an excellent post Tommo.
Re: That is an excellent post Tommo. -- lexy Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
tommo ®

11/21/2006, 18:02:35
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Lexy,

Thanks for your kind comments!  Judging from your posts we had rather similar experiences and both held on in there for way too long. 

It's amazing ,once I had the information,how quickly the whole thing unravels.

Yes I can relate to that...it is amazing what a big difference simple access to information makes.  We owe the likes of John and Mike a huge debt! 

Exiting has brought a real sense of relief, broadening horizons and re-integration of my intellectual and moral self.  I post out of happiness rather than sadness.  It is so good to feel and see all our 'inner scruffy little hippy' selves all re-asserting themselves on this forum and kicking EV its corporate peace via DVD and project management courses off into touch.  All John has to do is to keep the EPO site going ..and ..just as 'that droplet eventually finds and merges with the ocean' ...so more and more premies will remember their true selves and find their way here and move on.

Yeah..I was in South London  .74 to 77 while I was at University.  Streatham area..

warm wishes to you to Lexy

Tim







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