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Modified by turey at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 05:36:52
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Now whilst I think such experiences are probably generated by our own minds, I am not completely convinced, and I want to explore, for the sake of argument, the possibility that there are people, perhaps potentially all of us, who have the power to generate such cosmic experiences in others. If this is true, then I would argue, rather than this being evidence that Rawat should be more respected, it is further reason to be more vigilant when encountering people like Rawat. It's the power of suggestion, but I can't say I understand the machinations of how that works. I again recall Marjoe Gortner's expose of himself as a such a conman. He explains it in this interview from the book Snapping, excerpt below, in which Gortner explains to a class in a lecture called "Rhetoric and Charisma": "Today Marjoe restricts the use of his talents to his acting career and to social causes he deeply believes in. Foremost among those causes is informing the public about some of the rhetorical techniques that are being used to manipulate their thoughts and emotions. Most techniques Marjoe is in command of are simple and age-old, but so effective that they can be equally powerful even when and audience has been explicitly forewarned of their use. Toward the end of our conversation, Marjoe told us a story that revealed the fineness of his rhetorical skills. In contrast to the massive physical experiences such as intense group rituals and intimate personal crises that have been recognized as major contributors to the snapping moment, Marjoe demonstrated how words alone, artfully manipulated, may be used to influence groups and individuals, even to the point of evoking the overwhelming emotional response of being "saved." "I lecture in about twenty colleges a year," he began, "and I do a faith-healing demonstration -- but I always make them ask for it. I tell them that I don't believe in it, that I use a lot of tricks; the title of the lecture is 'Rhetoric and Charisma,' so I've already told them the whole rap explaining how it's done, but they still want to see it. So I throw it all right back at them. I say, 'No, you don't really want to see it.' And they say, 'Oh, yes. We do. We do!' And I say, 'But you don't believe in it anyway, so I can't do it.' And they say, 'We believe. We believe!' So after about twenty minutes of this I ask for a volunteer, and I have a girl come up and I say, 'So you want to feel better?' And I say, 'You're lying to me! You're just up here for a good time and you want to impress all these people and you want to make an ass out of me and an ass out of this whole thing, so why don't you just go back and sit down?' I get really hard on her, and she says, 'No, no, I believe!' And I keep going back and forth until she's almost in tears. And then, even though this is in a college crowd and I'm only doing it as a joke, I just say my same old line, In the name of Jesus! and touch them on the head, and wham, they fall down flat every time."
Related link: Entire article: Marjoe Gortner
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Modified by turey at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 06:47:57
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Having survived are we not innoculated? Stephen B
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We are innoculated - but vaccinations are rarely 100% effective. And consdiering what many of us lost through involvement with the cult, you'd have to be stupid not to keep your critical faculties switched on. We may not get reabsorbed into another cult, but there is still plenty of magical thinking to watch out for.
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Many did become re-absorbed into another cult.....they didn't have the advantage of the Internet,therapy or knowledgeable books on the "cult" subject. cq and Milareepa were both followers of Rajneesh; and I was friends with a french premie who left Maharaj ji to follow Hare Krishna, and then became a premie again....you see...there's hope for us all 
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Oh! I never knew any that went to another cult. I thought if the Lord of the Universe thing didn't work out, why would you bother with a lowly meditation teacher, or inspirational speaker or whatever - I mean, what a come-down!
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"I Had Trouble in Getting to Solla Sollew." A story about a fella that gets invited to "Solla Sollew, where they don't have any problems, at least very few". He experiences tremendous difficulties and at last arrives and there is just one problem: A key-slapping slippard. No one gets in. He then gets invited to a place "where they have no problems, no problems at all". He starts off then decides to return home and vows: "My problems will begin to have problems with me" DLM was a fantasy world of epic proportions. I realized that I had to face life head on.........I had never read this book as a child (Published 1965) and first found it as I was leaving the DLM. I remember thinking of it often in the hard time I had in separating. Once you have made the journey and gotten your ass kicked, it's hard to get sucked in again. Anybody else remember this book? Stephen B
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That sounds so strange, is like saying that it is okay. Are "we" confusing anybody reading this pages? cq and Milareepa were both followers of Rajneesh; and I was friends with a french premie who left Maharaj ji to follow Hare Krishna, and then became a premie again....you see...there's hope for us all Maybe I cannot read between the lines/words. Please, explain that to me? Would you?
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It was a joke.What I said about cq,Milarepa and my french friend was true but then I made a joke and because I was posting quickly,I didn't explain it. "You see,there's hope for us all" ......I was joking, meaning if my french friend could leave Maharaji ,to be a Hare Krishna person, and then return to being a premie then maybe we ex-premies could return to Maharaji.....but I was completely being sarcastic and joking. Sorry if it caused you confusion.
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You don't have to answer if you don't want, of course. Did you live in Florida around 2002? I'm looking for somebody who used to post here with the name Stephen, Or Steven, I don't remember well his name. Thanks. That was funny!
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Nope, never lived in Florida. I must be a different person, I did register for this forum 4 to 5 years ago, then never posted. Thanks for asking... I have enjoyed your posts here.
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I don't think ex-premies are immune from getting hoodwinked again unless they first gain a good understanding of why they got scammed by Rawat. For instance: What drew me in?; What were my needs at the time?; What was I told to expect?; What did I expect?; Why was I so susceptible to believing the unbelievable?; Did I place too much value on feeling high versus rational thinking?; Why was I so eager to join up without doing any research and homework about it?!?! Another thing tricksters do is the "This is it! Get it while it's hot" routine, which is how knowledge was presented to me. The "one and only way and now or never" mentality scares people into not looking more deeply and skeptically into a movement or leader, and later serves to keep people hooked into a cult. Lots of premies buy into all kinds of woowoo new agey and old agey tricks and practice them and promote them. The most important thing about any trip, religion, spiritual path, imo, is to test if it can be questioned. If it can't be questioned or critiqued, then that's good reason for anyone's red flag to start waving fast and high.
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 12:48:39
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Cynthia, I was also thinking, in relation to the idea of immunity, about ex-premies who have gone on to other delusional trips. Someone ex recently posted or I read on EPO the idea that 'devotees need a master', and so some who haven't outgrown dependency aren't ready to move on from M. "You can't handle the truth!" (Jack Nicholson in 'A Few Good Men') Similarly, some of us left M but didn't outgrow the need for woowoo and juju etc. See my post below (we are the magicians?): One reason I was attracted to GMJ was for the light show etc., --same reason I liked weed and LSD. I still enjoy a good light show, a little universal love--but I'm a LOT more skeptical of the people involved (including me). Most astonishing for me, and one of the larger issues I am working on (hone, hone) thru posting here is when the good and the manipulative, the loving and the parasitical, are mixed. You might say 'walk away'--but I think that description fits all of us to some extent. I am unwilling to let M get the better of me to such an extent that I walk away with nothing. 'That beauty is in you' was what he told me. I SAW the beauty. It's still in me. I don't need him for a mirror any more. How do I get it out without getting ripped off again? BS detector. I used to want to get rid of my ego. I have come to understand that no one can live without an ego--if nothing else, a reasonable boundary around your sense of who you are that keeps you from trying to ingest others, and from being ingested. But I also think that most of us suffer from some version or other of a cult of 'me'. Often it's just a big snaggle of low self-esteem, resentment (!) and stuff--what used to be called, when Freud was in vogue, a neurosis, a 'complex.' Part of my attraction to the LOTU was that he offered me some real relief from my 'me' issues--for a while. It still makes sense to me, though, that if we could dream ourselves as part of a big, beautiful trip like 'Guru Maraji's world', then we can wake up to ourselves as parts of a tougher, trickier but still big and potentially beautiful world. IMO, it's possible to practice critical thinking and still 'feel the oneness'. Not EASY, but possible. The most important thing about any trip, religion, spiritual path, imo, is to test if it can be questioned. I came to similar conclusion writing earlier today (in response to a snow white post) about how I saw the response to questions shifting in my time in the K world, from 'it's OK, keep practicing' to (more or less) 'you're a loser if you're confused'. If it avoids questions, it's not nice. Love to Cynthia and all Chuck
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I am one of those who--based on my best interpretation of my 50 years' life experience--that there is some substance to some of the 'cosmic experiences'. No room or time to explain my POV, but I'm convinced that amid all the nonsense and deceitery is a certain amount of 'real' stuff that, say, can't be explained by physics, molecular chemistry and conditioned reflexes. That the term 'God' does sometimes refer to a reality. (For those who resist deist/theist explanations, here's how I define God: whatever it is in us and between us that makes it WRONG for me to lie to you, steal from you or rape your children--that's where God begins. If it doesn't go any further than that, that's still God as far as I'm concerned.) With all respect to those who (calmly) discount 'supernatural' & 'paranormal' explanations, I also think it highly likely--based on experience--that some of the 'special effects' may be more than 'parlour tricks' and psychological manipulation. I don't think the 'I was brainwashed by a cult' explanation is COMPLETE. I'm not saying it's wrong--I just read MacGregor's accounts of the ca. 1999 team trainings, in which he NAILED DOWN much of the manipulative technique in play. http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/macgregor.htm and especially http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/macgregor3.htm I hope the links pasted. I think all the cult-suction techniques were at work, but I don't think that explains some of the stuff I saw happen. Stuff I have experienced, w/ M and elsewhere, that's NOT accounted for by mainline psychology. Whether it's 'astral', 'cosmic' or just brainstem and neuro-chemistry, IMO there's powerful stuff at work in some of these cults that hasn't been fully explained in scientific/academic literature--as the cult phenomenon itself HAS been pretty well understood. In fact, by having such a power, shouldn't I have more responsibility in ensuring that I supported my words with verifiable facts rather than parlour tricks? And shouldn't I ensure that no one gives up their critical thinking because of my ability to create fireworks in their heads? UR beautifully correct that someone who can do neat stuff "in the astral", and/or use subliminal breath-messages and eye-contact-dances to trigger sparking in my pineal gland, brainstem or etc., has a much GREATER responsibility to cut the crap than someone who is merely a persuasive talker. And someone who claims to represent God? To bring a message of universal love? What kind of accountability should that person measure up to? Someone who messes around in whatever built-in circuitry we have for communicating with God had better not be a f***ing liar! Chuck
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......and as you are new to the forum.You should be informed that, having been taken to court by Elan Vital a few years later, John Macgregor also wrote this "letter of apology": link removed by Admin I think you can draw your own conclusions.
Modified by Admin at Thu, Oct 19, 2006, 07:49:00
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Lexy - the link you have provided is to a site which grossly defames a number of exs, additionally the Macgregor affadavit makes unsubstantiated allegations about several exs (me included). My preference is for folks NOT to give any oxygen to that particular site by publishing links, a preference which I would ask all here to respect. I have addressed MacGregor's claims about me, and written about my contact with him at: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/5504.html Nik
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Actually Nik....we don't necessarily know your name so wouldn't have known it was you being defamed. The JM "apology".........is a fact...it happened; and I felt embarrassed to see Chuck innocently quoting JM when he didn't know the full story and therefore couldn't make that decision (to quote JM ) with all the facts at his disposal.Sorry,but to me something seemed dishonest about that situation. I searched on EPO for a squeaky-clean link by keying "John Macgregor" into the search facility.All JM's posts came up except that apology.IMO it should be there,with the other JM posts ...on EPO. I didn't know about your post ( thankyou for adding it), which I didn't see probably because it wasn't found by the search;There was no bad intention on my part and Chuck seems an eminently intelligent person,able to make sound judgements from what he reads. Lexy.
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......transparently and laughably bogus IMO. It does far more to defame premies than those-who-were-once-premies.
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It's a website I don't like seeing linked here. It's filled with libel against some of us by name. The MacGregor affidavit is on EV's faq if anyone really needs to see it. Thanks for saying something, Nik. Whoops! I thought I was responding to Nik. Thing is Lexy, even though it's obviously trash, it still hurts to have it linked here. Thanks.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 15:33:40
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I was simply trying to link JM's "apology" etc so Chuck had the whole story.........as it does cast a different light on JM's previous posts (which actually I believe when he talks about his experience of 28 years a premie) when you know the end of the story. I was in a hurry.I looked first on EPO thinking it would be there.I think Nik's post is very important and should be published after JM's posts on EPO.When I couldn't find it I quickly googled " John Macgregor apology".....unfortunately "EV's FAQS" didn't show but "one-reality" did.I have never studied that site and didn't know the details of the content.....I knew it was a premie site but I was just looking for the "apology" which was there and so I linked as I repeat I was in a hurry. Since you and Nik have posted I have looked briefly at the rest of the site and discovered that they have even bothered to make derogatory comments about me there......ridiculous.I honestly don't really care.....but it gave me a little taste of how you guys must feel. Now that Nik has put up his post it is fine for JHB to delete the link. No harm intended.I feel the JM saga is a whole sorry story and, without the ending ,could be construed as misleading no matter how true (as I believe ) JM's earlier posts were.
Modified by lexy at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 18:21:13
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Lexy,I've removed your link. Regarding the 'apology', what convinces me that it wasn't genuine is that Macgregor did not withdraw a single accusation made in his articles, and to my knowledge did not publish the apology anywhere where anyone outside the premie/ex-premie sub-culture could read it. For instance, he could have published it on Indymedia, and he could have sent it to the Australian newspapers where his articles appeared. No, I am convinced, until someone presents me evidence to the contrary, that his apology was either a condition of his settlement with Elan Vital, or it was his first move in pursuading Elan Vital to give him a settlement. The fact that he committed perjury in his affidavit shows that he was willing to ditch any integrity he once had to escape the persecution he was suffering. Having said this, I did (do?) intend to include the apology on EPO, and his 'not for publication' account of the harrassment his acquaintances were experiencing, with my comments, but it's just one of the many updates to EPO that lay near the bottom of my to do list. John.
Modified by JHB at Thu, Oct 19, 2006, 08:15:01
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Why this cannot be discussed in the other forum? Incredible.
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Why this cannot be discussed in the other forum? The other forum is also an ex-premie forum, even though it's for off-topic discussions. But, no one said you cannot discuss John Macgregor and the cult. We all decided a couple of years ago that we didn't want those premie websites linked here because they defame us by using our real names. They say horrible things that aim to hurt us in a big way. The stuff on that website is in part, a product of three years of trashing me personally every day on the premie chat forum. They hung me in effigy in a cartoon image, and said that I have no right to live and breathe. They hurt me a lot, and it just makes me feel a lot safer to know that the "response to ex-premies" website isn't going to be linked on this forum. To link them here would also be kind of giving them free advertising for their lie-and-hate spreading. I really can't endorse anyone doing that.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 05:22:01
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Because it refers to the John Macgregor saga and there fore is Rawat related. I felt the need to NOT be misunderstood as I have sometimes been in the past because communicating on a forum is less than perfect. I also wanted to point out the importance of the WHOLE of the JM story being accessible on EPO.
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The difference between JM's expremie writing and his 'apology' is plain to see. Truth is not always easy to sort out but sometimes sincerity and its opposite are easily sniffed. Nik, sorry my comment led us to touch on something so negative for you and others--but it has helped make even clearer to me how many ills M has been at the root of, that the darkness has so many spreading tendrils.
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No worries. It's just been an ad hoc practice for the last couple of years for the ex forums not to carry links to premie sites that attack individual exes. But no one wants to stifle appropriate discussion. The very worst premie defamation sites have been closed down quite quickly because they breach the most basic Terms of Service of the Hosting Companies. The site Lexy linked to has managed to stay just on the edge. And while it may seem very obviously a cult site to most people who read the forum, for those who are unfamiliar with the excesses of cults the material can seem plausible. Of course it is a salutory lesson in just what some of Rawat's followers are like. My take is that it's similar to lancing a boil, it brings out some very unpleasant material - in this case Rawat's Taliban. Nik
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John, Maybe I'm narrow minded but I can't even go with your conjecture that it is ever anything other than subjective. I think that those experiences say a lot more about the 'receivers' than the alleged 'transmitter'. Maybe the capability or susceptibility (I think it is the former) to feel such things is something that premies and we, ex-premies particularly share. I took a number of people along to hear Rawat who felt absolutely zilch while, simultaneously, us premies were so certain that something very profound was happening. Maybe one could simply say that people who are 'charismatic' should use the power this gives them responsibly .....but,of course, charisma and benevolence are not always correlated. best Tim
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Tim,My point is that for those people who see divine light streaming from Rawat's hands, regardless of the cause, it's no good reason to believe that Rawat is good (let alone God!), and no good reason to surrender anything to him. It's precisely when confronted with stuff we can't explain that we need our critical faculties more than ever. It's not even necessary to have an explanation for the cosmic stuff, but to look at the example of Rawat, and reject him for his morality and personal behaviour, and the behaviour and morality of his followers. John.
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..well only a quibble. People could never see 'divine' light streaming from anyone's hands. Only light...that they may interpret as 'divine' depending (in my view) on what gets said during preparation. Concentrate on anything hard enough and for long enough and it seems to be bathed in light. But I certainly agree with your main point. Tim
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Hi Tim: ..well only a quibble. People could never see 'divine' light streaming from anyone's hands. Only light...that they may interpret as 'divine' depending (in my view) on what gets said during preparation. Concentrate on anything hard enough and for long enough and it seems to be bathed in light. My requibble, gently offered: I am one of those who (except when sinking under stress and often even then) tend to respond to the whole thing (life) as 'divine' in some sense. IMHO that somehow/potential sacredness of 'anyone's hands' is what makes the behavior of someone like GMJ so truly abominable. Again, only MHO, but if it's all just dust, nothing holy or sacred in play, then it matters not what dust does to dust for a moment or two; the dust perhaps suffers, but so what? But if the wrong done is REAL -- which is the message of the whole ex-premie effort, that M's trip is really, REALLY WRONG-- then I ask myself what is the wrong against? Me personally? Us personally plural? Yes. But it seems to go beyond that. If I'm having a good time dancing with the LOTU, what's it matter TO ME if Jag is molesting kids, Charanand is encouraging abortions and divorces --as long as they're not mine? I'm OK, so why fuss and fret? Of course it DOES matter, and what I tend to think of as 'divine' or 'holy' in my life is the connection or kinship or possibility of being good to each other that is so blatantly VIOLATED by manipulators like M and trips like K. I see it in the natural world--beauty, wonder--and I see it in people around me. It's the potentials and joy and love that M has been ripping off--not just the time and money. If it's not divine or holy or something, then what does it matter if I rip some of it off? Please accept my apologies for the pushy/preachy tone, but M's betrayals cut as deeply as they do, in my consciousness, precisely BECAUSE he took advantage of the desire in me and in so many of us to touch that place (even if it's only neurochemistry) where we can experience all light as 'holy' or 'divine'--and then be sweet to each other because we all be part of the light. Yes, I know. It's the same old same old; it's the bait that M waved at me; it's the lie of so many bogus religions and juju/hoodoo trips; but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie. Just means we need to guard the more diligently against counterfeiters. 'The divine in me salutes the divine in you' or just simply Best Wishes Chuck
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Greetings all. Needless to say I have not been here much. I am neck deep in a college algebra course that is challenging my airy fairy nature, between that and the demands of preparing for winter I have had scant time to visit. Thanks to you all for holding this space.
I touched on this subject a little back in one of my early posts. From the perpective of each of us being a human energy consciousness system, the phenomenon of physics called 'harmonic induction' (when a tuning fork is struck and placed next to another it too starts to vibrate) is in play. We all experience this regularly when someone elses 'mood' affects us too. This phenomenon is more pronounced in group settings (eg. european football). The problem is that the ability to radiate frequencies that are called 'divine' is not in any way tied to an individuals level of morality, consciousness or even self awareness. Oh that it were!
The 'vaccine' for this(as such) is personal self awareness. As we become more able to track our own individual personal experience and understand it as it relates to what is happening around us, we become more able to discern what is 'us' and what is 'other' and be aware when we are being affected in ways that do not serve us. Our own individual 'bullshit' detector, as it were. Unfortunately it appears the the school of hard knocks is often the most effective source of vaccination. Hence, here we are in this forum!
The thing that is becoming increasingly disturbing to me personally is that there seems to be no place of refuge from my bullshit detector. The more I recognize (within and without), the less I am able to see a 'dependable' safe outlook. Each time I come to a new place of understanding that seems like it works, after a time it begins to show cracks and the bs starts to leak through and I have to find a new one. I have come to understand this as the path of growth in consciousness, but it still has its moments of distress that I find less than comfortable.
I suppose in a fashion I should be grateful to M in much the way that Billy was probably eventually grateful to Johnny for the 'smartening pills'. They sure tasted like shit, but they did have some effect.
regards,
spark
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