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I'm gone from this place.Bye all.
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ChrisThis Forum is not for free expression, meaning anything goes. The Forum has a specific purpose, and for that purpose free expression is free but within boundaries - such as commonly accepted notions of decency, legal issues, privacy and a number of others. The question is where exactly to draw those boundaries, and of course there will always be disagreement about the minutiae of that. For me, the Forum's purpose is for both current premies to read and to start thinking for themselves about Maharaji and the part he plays in their lives, and for us no-longer premies to deconstruct our time as premies and return to sanity and personal integration. In my mind, those are supremely important, and anything which negates those must go. Now whether altered pics of Maharaji conflicts with those purposes or not, is debatable - but the debate must be in the context of those purposes, and not as 'free expression'. I personally agree with John, that while making fun of Maharaji personally, as in altered pics, may be helpful for some people, for others it is distasteful. I also think it distracts from attacking Maharaji's message. I know you can make the point that Maharaji is a public figure, and in some sense even *is* his message (worshipping the lotus feet etc). Remember, there are many *many* more people reading here than post here, mainly premies with the frisson of their doing something forbidden, and the forum is as much for them as for us who post. But a line has to be drawn, John has drawn it, I agree with him. It is to keep the forum on track as we see it, and has nothing to do with free expression as such. Take care -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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I am glad to read about the purpose of the forum and your take on it. I now understand better some of the responses and spins on the conversations. I guess we are in part managing for an audience that may never post. Good work, thanks for taking the project on I have a clearer understanding now. Well done! Stephen B
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As John said, anyone is free to set up their own forum, with their own rules.
I get the impression John is keen not to put off wavering premies that come to this forum with some images that may be amusing ( or not ). I think that is more important.
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Hi cq, Please don't feel like you have to go. I'm sorry I dragged you and others into this. It's my fault. Stick around OK? Hilltop
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"We" used to have a link in one of the forums to Anything Goes and what transpired there was pretty crazy. Premies harrassing ex-premies, and they would fload the place with porno, like they did in the Spanish Forum also, and making fun of us, poor souls, trying to recover and more. I'm wondering if we can place another link, to a place where that altered art can be shown. Some people find it offensive. I have to recognise, humor helped brake the "spell"; putting him "down" or laughing at him (like he laughed at me) was absolutley helpful. It helped me see him as a "regular person" (sorry humans), and by putting him down from the pedestal my blind devotion and sense of loyalty created was a good therapy. He even call us ex-follower HATERS! So, I'm open to help in creating/supporting another place to place that art to express that he is no special being but the opposite. We can explain why it is helpful. Is not our fault that we were brainwashed to believe that he was "GOD", that we needed darshan/kiss his literally stinky feet, and spent a fortune traveling to get darshan for decades, because oh, the yearning, and all the shannanigans he made us believe. You need the master. Throw yourself on the floor before the Knowledge session and promise at that time that you will serve him forever, and the techniques are secret kind of crap. It is fair game in my honest opinion. Many of our loved ones are still under his "spell": I didn't start the fire, he did, the liar. He could have quit while he was ahead, but greed won. If he recignise PUBLICKLY as we ask him to appologise, he knew that the lawsuits would have being many, so, he opted to re-invent his gig over and over. Fair game.
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............amusing though they can be, or not, these things being entirely a matter of beauty being in the eye of the beholder, isn't a substitute for the written word, & I'm surprised you don't see that.
There've been plenty of contributors to the predecessor forums to this one, going back 8 yrs & more now, who've ripped Rawat a new one in prolonged inspired rages of Greek Comedy/Tragedy intensity, & with great wit too.
I seem to remember you being a part of all that.
So what's the problem.............getting lazy in your old age? Or is it that you don't have anything left to say. That I can relate to.
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Picture x1 >/= word x 1000. I'm sure you get the idea. We'll have no picture apartheid round these parts! (you're familiar with the inhabitants of Royston Vasey I hope). Unfortunately it seems we will have.
Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 16:33:33
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Stick around. That wonderful art can be placed somewhere else, with a link in this forum and a warning, for those who do not want to see them.
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Thanks for expressing your point of view and that of Mike's concerning altered photos of Rawat. I've concluded that I don't care either way about the altered images issue, and as you know, my opinion has fluctuated a lot on this for many reasons. I don't agree with cq that this is a freedom of expression issue -- not at all. Having said all that, you didn't ask for anyone's opinion! Thanks again for the clarification, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 12:41:39
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I do love some of the altered images but worry how they might look to someone who isn't well versed in recovering from a cult. If someone, especially Hilltop or Frederic, posts a link to altered images I'll look at them. Some of them are darn near art..in the picture is worth a thousand words. But I can see that in terms of having this forum be a relatively safe space for people in all stages of exiting those images might be offensive. I think its the right thing to do and you have my support.
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Hi John, Your right and I should know better by now. Please delete those altered pictures for me ok? I'm sorry for making your job more difficult. I'm also sorry to those I have offended. Hilltop
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John and Mike Visual parody can be fair comment for politicians sometimes and Prem Rawat does put himself in that arena when he offers himself forward for civic awards etc. Nevertheless it is wrong to be hurtful and this forum is certainly at its best when it is not only intelligent and insightful but also laced with kindness. Certainly the premie/ ex-premie line is a fine one and it is only a long haul and good luck that led to the perspective that we can now enjoy. From this position of strength a little sensitivity and generosity is certainly in order thanks for putting us back on track Tim
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Some of you will be aware from previous discussions that I don't like altered images on this forum. My personal opinion is that any cathartic good they do is more than offset by the harmful effect they have on the reputation of ex-premies generally, and hence our capacity to help others. I can't prove this, and I know others strongly disagree with me on this point, but given that I pay for this forum, have configured the software (with help with initial installation), and administer it (with of
course much help from Mike who agrees with me on this issue), then my view stands. So, to save any debate about which altered images are tasteful, and which aren't, do not post any more altered images on this forum. Of course, as has been said before, this forum isn't for everyone, and anyone who wants to set up and run their own forum allowing, for instance, altered images, is welcome to do so. I am sorry to hear that John, but of course, I respect your opinion, and since you do hold the purse strings you are free to wield the power. I personally think it makes for a livelier and more interesting forum to allow the use of imaginative altered images that deconstruct the myth of the sacred fellow we once feared as god almighty incarnate. Sometimes words just don`t pack the punch of a good image and some of us prefer visual rather than verbal debate, more than others. I followed the image thread and it was very meaningful to me. Words like Mohammed… Danish Cartoon… Offence… spring to mind. I am puzzled as to what you mean by the reputation of ex-premies ? Dave
Modified by Milarepa at Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 18:01:01
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Dave,This issue has been debated many times, and while I cannot prove my position is right, on this forum I have to go with what I think is right. I don't hold any purse strings but my own, as everyone else does. I really do believe in freedom of speech, and I wish others would start their own forums where they could express their own views. When these forums first started, there was an air of innocence between ex-premies and premies, but extremist premies have since spread the word amongst premies that we are a hate group, and this has had an effect. Although there is little we can do to stop the extremist premies, there is no need for us to give them ammunition. John.
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John, I appreciate your position, I know you believe in freedom of speech, and I support your effort to avoid ex-premies being branded as a hate group. But really, banning altered images is not going to do much for that. There is plenty of ammunition already for anyone who wants to take that line. I`m just sorry that two of our most creative visual posters.... Cq and Hilltop... have been hurt by the censorship. In my opinion, their work is of huge value to this process and I love them for it. I hope we can find a way of encouraging them to come back and contribute. It will be a great loss to this forum if they don`t. Axis suggests... I'm wondering if we can place another link, to a place where that altered art can be shown. Cq and Hilltop what do you think.... would that work for you? I agree with Axis ... I have to recognise, humor helped brake the "spell"; putting him "down" or laughing at him (like he laughed at me) was absolutley helpful. It helped me see him as a "regular person" (sorry humans), and by putting him down from the pedestal my blind devotion and sense of loyalty created was a good therapy. Let us keep laughing at HIM Dave 
Modified by Milarepa at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 03:26:12
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And I just wish someone who does disagreee with me would set up their own forum and run it how they want. After Forum8 was closed down, and I (and others) were subject to some serious abuse on Drek's forum, I vowed to wait a month in the hope that someone would set up a forum I would be comfortable posting on. No one did so I set up this one.Chris and I have had so many serious disagreements about forum management in the past I have been surprised that he has deigned to post here up to now, and his departure is no surprise, and, in my opinion, no loss. Hilltop has retired from posting several times, and has so far always come back. Whether he does or not this time is his choice. Maybe he and Chris will reappear on their own forum. John.
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Chris. was never involved in the ghastly melt-down on Drek's forum.I know you didn't say he was, but your post may give that impression. I know that Chris gave practical,voluntary help with the admin. of the finances for this forum over a period of time in order to help you. Your comment about Chris. being "no loss" to this forum may be your opinion but is also hurtful and an unnecessarily bitchy comment to publish for all to read. Not one of us is perfect ( thank goodness ) but I'm glad that Chris was a part of this forum when I exed as he made me laugh and has been a friend to me. P.S. Don't forget that the mods on forum8 were anonymous so Chris.probably didn't know that he was disagreeing with you. Although he said he was " out of here" he is surprised to have been "blocked" and unable to reply..... However, Hilltop,who (- sorry to drop you in it Hilltop, but John brought up the subject-) was involved in the dissing on Drek's forum has the choice about whether to come back or not.I would like to see both of them back if they choose.
Modified by lexy at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 15:08:43
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I love CQ too! We have been around here for about the same time. If "they" get creative, so can we. Ammunition, key word in JHB's words. Hi Lexy! A PS: You won't believe all the ideas that got generated by this thread. Is all good!
Modified by Axis at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 13:51:37
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Chris was never involved in the ghastly melt-down on Drek's forum.I know you didn't say he was, but your post may give that impression.Sure Chris didn't accuse me of being worse than Rawat's PR, but he was one of the critics of the Forum 8 moderators which was the main topic of the 'melt-down'. I know that Chris gave practical,voluntary help with the admin. of the finances for this forum over a period of time in order to help you. No, Chris never helped me - he helped with admin for ex-premie.org, as have many other people, including myself. He withdrew that help because of some childish spat. For the record he has never, to my knowledge, helped administer this, or any previous, forum. Also, for the record, he has done valuable transcription work for ex-premie.org. Your comment about Chris. being "no loss" to this forum may be your opinion but is also hurtful and an unnecessarily bitchy comment to publish for all to read. Yes, maybe you're right, but sometimes one does let slip one's personal feelings, doesn't one? Not one of us is perfect ( thank goodness ) but I'm glad that Chris was a part of this forum when I exed as he made me laugh and has been a friend to me. Yes, you should be glad he's your friend, as it's not very pleasant to be on the receiving end of his nastiness. John.
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I remember the Drek fracas.I know that Chris didn't post during that fight.I did though in your support and Drek turned one of my posts into a rap.
Modified by lexy at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 14:48:02
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...but at the moment you can criticise Chris in public but he has no right of reply as he's been blocked. I know he gave practical help with financial admin.for EPO ( I made an irrelevant mistake about which forum) I don't think "lots of people" did that. Anyhow ,I give up now.....but I'm rather sad that Chris has been blocked. I will email you when I get a moment. Lexy.
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Here are the people who have made significant contributions to EPO:-Scott Perry
Jim Heller
David Sterling
Brian
Katie
Jean-Michel Khan
Joe Whelan
Mike Dettmers
Mike Donner
Mike Finch
John Brauns
John Macgregor
Chris Giles
The supplier of the training transcripts
The over 100 authors of the Journeys
and all the people who have posted in the forum archives and the Best of Forums, and who have supported EPO financially. I would hope that all these contributors were motivated by the wish to expose Rawat and to help anyone still or potentially ensnared by him, and that such motivation would be unaffected by any personal disagreements. I blocked Chris to stop his childish responses to my Admin post. He is now unblocked, but as he said he was leaving, why would he come back? To argue with my comment? I said it was my opinion, and it will remain my opinion. John.
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....I read it. No good having a site if nobody reads it.
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In the last year, there have been over 540,000 separate visits to EPO, and 1.3 million pages opened. But you're right - I should have mentioned the readers.
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By that reasoning, this forum is a product of ALL its contributors. As such it belongs to them too John ..You ask (of me): "as he said he was leaving, why would he come back? 1. To respond to those who have asked me not to leave. 2. To respond to the accusations you made in my enforced absence. I intend to do both. After a good night's sleep.
Modified by cq at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 18:09:46
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By that reasoning, this forum is a product of ALL its contributors. As such it belongs to them too John ..I didn't see all the forum contributors rushing out and registering domain names, buying server space, and configuring software after F8 folded. EPO is different because so many people were involved in its creation, development, and financial support. No one person could claim to own it. This forum clearly belongs to me, and while I welcome those who post here, anyone, like you, who gets the idea that this forum is run as some kind of democracy is very much mistaken. As I have said many times, if you don't like it, then set up your own forum. You made life very difficult for the F8 Moderators - you will not make life difficult for me. Regarding altered images - accept my decision or post elsewhere. If I visited your home and started smoking in your kitchen, and you told me to stop, what would you think of me if I continued to smoke and argued that I have a right to smoke anywhere I want? Even if other smokers spoke out in support of me you would have the right to throw me out. It's time you grew up, Chris. John.
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The analogy is not so strong John (altered images do not present a health hazard though they may appear as anti-social behaviour to some) but you have a point and it is something that has been debated before. I`m just sorry that it got rather too personal. Let`s not lose perspective guys... it`s no big deal. There are far bigger issues. I regard altered images as simply another form of language, an alternative to words, but there have been some very good points raised by this topic about the way others perceive them, especially from different cultural backgrounds. The majority of posters here agree with you and I respect democracy and your rights as the owner of this house. Thank you for inviting us all here. Dave
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I think that's a fair analogy 
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And a hugely amusing one at that! Almost as good as a Peter Sellers sketch. I`m still laughing whenever I remember that image in the pool
Modified by Milarepa at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 08:56:07
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you are being rude, using foul language.  JHB, do you have my e-mail address? or, do you still have the same one I wrote you to? I need to talk with you. It is very important. Thanks, A
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Hi Dave,Without becoming too pedantic, couldn't it be argued that altered images could be bad for some premies' mental health? I'm not joking! When I first came across these images I was in the very early stages of exing, having just discovered EPO. And thank goodness it happened that I read EPO first, before I came across the images. As a premie, they are very distressing and I probably would have run a mile and would not even have looked at EPO or this forum, if that had been the first thing I'd seen. I would have thought 'Now I know why M tells us not to read here, and why they're called a hate group'. Thankfully, the first chinks in my devotion to M had started to appear because of the discovery of M's true nature, behaviour, abuse etc. that I had already read about on epo. I think it would be a shame if we alienated premies before they had the chance to read here and epo. However, these days I don't find them in the least bit offensive. And I can appreciate the value that they can have for some ex-premies, myself included, which is great. But as this is John's house, it's up to him, and also I agree with him on this too. I appreciate the fact that he's made this place available for us all to hang out in! Thanks John Good to see you posting here Dave
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... in this whole argument Stardust. couldn't it be argued that altered images could be bad for some premies' mental health? Yes, quite possibly. But one could also say these altered images are very good medicine and promote mental health, once the recovery process has started. However, if we take the line that premies are actually suffering from a severe mental illness now, perhaps they do need a gentler, milder medication before they can take the full on Rawat-de-mystification-medication without rejecting it. That makes sense to me. I think this whole topic has been a very healthy one to address and we are all working toward the same goal so please, let us all move on, together. I support the idea of a site set up where links can be made to strong medication (with health warnings)for those who can handle it safely. Dave
Modified by Milarepa at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 09:15:30
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"However, if we take the line that premies are
actually suffering from a severe mental illness now, perhaps they
do need a gentler, milder medication before they can
take the full on Rawat-de-mystification-medication without rejecting
it. That makes sense to me."
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"disrespecting Maharaji is a virtue, nay a duty. Those who cannot do it are still entrapped in a very vulnerable and dangerous state of mind, or extremely polite".So who should this forum cater for?
Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 16:16:21
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One minute you say EPO belongs to all the people who contributed to it - wrote journeys, posted "best of" posts, etc. But when it comes to this - YOUR forum, oh no, it's double standards all over.You seem to think that I was aware that you were a "moderator" on previous forums. In those days, the moderators were anonymous, you must surely remember? Then you insinuate that I had something to do with the attacks against you on Drek's forum. Let me state for the record that I had nothing to do with them whatsoever. Your attempt to incriminate me in them is quite frankly unconscionable. John, you're playing a very underhand game here. The only posts you deleted about altered images weren't Hilltop's, they were exclusively mine. Blatant discrimination I'd say. You conveniently forget the time and effort I expended - solely for your benefit - when I set up an account to transfer EPO donations to you in Latvia. Now you say that I "have done nothing to help you", and that my departure from here will be "no great loss". I feel like laughing! So! - this pathetic grudge you've been holding against me for ... who knows how long? - this is how it culminates, is it? In you telling me to grow up? Hah! That's rich. Don't worry, I won't hang around on this forum for more underhand discrimination from the likes of you. I've seen your "true" colours clearly this time - and I'm no sucker for any more of that punishment. PS - Hilltop needs to know that my decision to quit has nothing to do with him, and that he must make his own decision as to whether he returns or not. In the meantime, perhaps he can post his artwork on Hamzen's forum.
Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 16:03:39
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For the record, all altered images were deleted off of F8, not just yours. I was a moderator and I remember it quite clearly because it was discussed to death by the moderators at the time -- and it was a written guideline on F8 that altered images weren't allowed. Please don't rehash this now the way you are doing, cq. What's the point? Why are you bad-mouthing John like you are doing? He just doesn't deserve it at all and what you're arguing about doesn't make sense to me. Didn't you see your name on John's list above as one of the major contributors to EPO? Do you really think that what you're saying in your posts here is helping premies to leave the cult? Can't you simply agree to disagree with John while respecting John's and Mike's wishes? I'm sorry but I just don't see why this is such a huge deal.
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And while I can accept Mike and John's decision not to allow altered images here, I don't feel I can respect their reasons for implementing such a policy.From the "Cult Survivor's Handbook":
"Art therapy is fundamentally a process of adding meaning to one's life. All artists experience a type of spontaneous therapy when they create. Artists' creations are often deeply personal and profoundly touching to many people, besides just the artist. The creative process taps deep layers of the collective consciousness that includes the world of myth and dreams. Thus, art therapy gives the client resources that would not be available in ordinary talking therapy. Artistic ability is immaterial. Even the most minimal drawing, done sincerely, may express something from deep in the unconscious. In non-directive art therapy, the client is ultimately responsible for interpreting his or her own artwork. The therapist does not impose a particular meaning on the client's piece prematurely. After some time, the therapist learns the language of the client's visual imagery. Symbols are a language, but not a ready-made language. Rather, symbols lead us into a process of understanding".
Related link: http://surrealist.org/writing/handbook6.html
Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 16:25:53
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I didn't look at that thread again, because I didn't pay much attention to that section of it to begin with. The altered images don't really do anything for me anymore, but I can see their place. Chris, I agree that art therapy can be beneficial for people. I endorse people doing art therapy if they want to. I've gotta tell you though, I've done art therapy and it's not something that I would promote somebody doing in public. True art therapy is so intensely personal because it is all of the things you quoted above, so its therapeutic value is usually/mostly for the people themselves who are doing the artwork. Plus, normally a therapist is nearby to help the person go through the process of understanding what they've created, as well as their emotional responses which can be severe. I've done art therapy I wouldn't even show my husband and didn't want to show him. It was for my personal benefit and disturbing at times. I wouldn't really call yours and Hilltop's altered pics art therapy. You comment frequently on people who may be new to leaving Rawat. Who's nearby them to help them through an emotional reaction to those altered pics that may be disturbing to them? That's not art therapy for them, it's shock therapy! That said, I've been all up and down on this issue and I just don't see the point in rehashing it again, when John made a simple request. I think your reaction was disproportionate to his request. I've done this kind of public arguing in the past and I've learned that it isn't the best way to go. Maybe you and John can work out your differences -- I don't know -- but trashing him on his forum isn't a good approach. You had your say about this, and we all know how you feel, so I don't know why you insist on perseverating your points.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 17:02:20
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"Maybe you and John can work out your differences -- I don't know -- but trashing him on his forum isn't a good approach.You also say that you "didn't look at that thread again, because [you] didn't pay much attention to that section of it to begin with". It's this thread Cynthia. The one where John started trashing me - after I was blocked and didn't have the right of reply. If you don't know the background, may I suggest you keep your nose out of it, old girl? Otherwise you're just confusing the issue.
Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 18:09:30
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You don't want to talk, read what's being written to you and respond reasonably, I think you want to be pissed off. So, I'll stay out of it, no problem. Cynthia
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I really thought you were handling the donations for the same reason as I give my time; to help keep EPO running, because you thought it had value. But I now discover you were doing it for John Brauns, who you had briefly met a couple of times, and you had no altruistic motives whatsoever. Very strange motivation if I may say so. Do you think the people making the donations were doing it personally for me as well, or the people writing the journeys, and other articles? You must have been the only person helping with EPO who was doing it for John Brauns.BTW, could you remind me why you stopped handling the donations? I think our bystanders might be interested. I explained very clearly why EPO isn't mine but this forum is. If you didn't understand it the first time there's not much point explaining it again. Oh, and are you admitting you behaved badly to the F8 moderators, but that it was all right because they were anonymous? It certainly sounds like it. I don't have a grudge against you, it's just that you are the person who keeps reacting like a spoilt child. John.
Modified by JHB at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 17:07:32
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Modified by cq at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 17:15:03
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Chris,I apologise for my 'no loss' comment, but I was annoyed at your 'pathetic' comment, and your accusation that I stifle free expression when I'm the only person here who is providing any sort of ex-premie platform for any expression. Look can we agree to differ and to respect the good that we see in each other? If you want any of the posts in this exchange deleted, I'll be happy to do so. John.
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this is a private matter guys, you are both well-respected (by me anyway) so please take this o0ff-line as it is not relevant to this forum. We do need a Latvian soon, are you coming over John? big Love Falcon
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Sorry, no plans to visit England at the moment so you'll just have to come here for a real Latvian!
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yes, it belongs to everyone who JOINED forces at different times for all the reasons cited by JHB and CQ. Please, what about doing this in the other forum? THINK.
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Please don't give me orders Axis. Your posts come over a bit heavy at the moment. I think you said you are having a hard time caring for your mother ,who is very sick. I was in the same situation re. my mother (who died last year). It is important that you take care of yourself aswell, and that you have some support from friends and family and try to get enough rest. warm thoughts to you.
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I still remember it.
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Maybe there can be a section added, a link on the INTRODUCTion with warnings on a main page, explaining WHY some benefit from such a art. Agree: Divine laughter...cleaning, healing the wounds, healing the heart. ~Axis~
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I DO understand CQ's butt photo can be little too much for some delicate sensible viewer. I understand your point. There are so man yways of combating the lies about that. The best is yet to come. Be well, A
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I think not Axis David from NE
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Thank you, John and Mike. It is very hard to try and show current premies that the ex-premies aren't just a bunch of angry, frothing weirdos. Anything premies can use to "prove" their point, they will latch onto with a death grip----as indeed, they did with the MacGregor affidavit. I have found it extrememly difficult to maintain my position that all ex-premies are not raging crazies "out to hurt Maharaji" in light of things they have seen here. A second point is that the actual pictures available are so damning, it is more effective to post them exactly as they appeared, either in print or from videos. Nothing can beat seeing what rawat did to himself with those costumes! With his quotes included, they are priceless. On a lighter note, I sent a picture of the lord sitting on his throne in his Krishna getup to a friend. That friend's response was, "Oh my God!!! Where are his spike heels? It looks like he went into the Dollar Store, bought every tacky thing he could find and glued them all to that hat!" That's a photograph that presumably rawat approves of. He was a big boy, no doubt he dressed himself in that mess, and he is smiling at the camera. Nothing could speak louder than that.
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Fine Premie Spouse, I'll stop posting the altered pictures OK? However, you might want to tone down your negative and disrespectful talk about Prem Rawat too if you don't want to offend anyone. Come on really. A few altered photos of Prem Rawat does not make me a raging crazy person. Matter of fact I don't think I'll post anything anymore. Even posting the old quotes and pictures will probably offend premies too. Just remember when I'm gone. I'm not the one who started this cult that scammed and ruined so many lives. I think Prem Rawat should be accountable for that. Hey Premies please understand I'm not a frothing weirdo. I'm just someone who had nothing better to do than to post some old Prem Rawat quotes and silly pictures. Prem Rawat please forgive me too. I say that so the premies can see that I'm not hateful. No more disrespect to you or anybody. It's time to move on. Good bye and good luck. Thanks to everyone here that was kind and helpful to me Sorry Cynthia for not responding to your post below but like you've said before... sometimes we need a break from the forum this seems like a good time for me. Hilltop
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Sorry Cynthia for not responding to your post below but like you've said before... sometimes we need a break from the forum this seems like a good time for me. I'm sorry to hear that Hilltop. Like I told John, I do see both sides of the arguments but I don't know what the answer is. It's not my forum, so I don't have a say in making decisions about what's acceptable here. I've discussed this issue a real lot online and in private with exes, although not about your latest postings of the pix below. I've seen all of the altered pix so they don't have any shock value for me anymore, so it's hard for me to say anything about that. I remember on one of the earlier forums there was that big boob photo of Rawat and the pix (the boobs) jiggled. It did shock me at first, because it was such a sacrilege. It didn't stop a huge number of people form leaving the cult during that time and even posting. But, that wasn't my forum either. One thing I know for sure. I personally don't give a hoot what any premies think of me or about what I write here. Who and what I am or what I do is none of their business, although they do think it is their business, hence the hatred they send our way. I couldn't care less what Prem Rawat thinks of me, either. I also don't think it matters what we post here because the meme of "ex-premies as a hate-group" has already been established and set in stone in the cult's belief-system about ex-premies. Rawat long ago labeled me and has endorsed and perpetuated that label by calling me a member/leader of a hate group and sticking it up on his website (the EV one). Truth be told, I don't think your posting some altered images (or not) would change that belief one tiny bit. But again, it's not my place to decide about this issue for this forum and I respect both John and Mike. Having said all of that, what I'd really like to see on this forum are more real names instead of handles. I believe very strongly that that would give us all a lot more credibility all the way around. It's so incredibly easy to be critical of Rawat in any way if one is anonymous -- that's another accusation made about ex-premies by the Rawat cult -- that we're all anonymous. When you put your name on the line, it dramatically changes one's perspective of the backlash. Take some time off, cool down, think about this, then come back, please. What you do with your archives is invaluable. Be well, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 21:32:54
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Hilltop, your contributions to this site are invaluable and I hope you change your mind and stay. I am upset right now because you appear to be blaming yourself for the exes' disagreement about the value of the altered pics, and I think my applause had a part in bringing you to this pass - I am sorry for egging you on so frequently. Please don't leave the forum because of this. I doubt if I'll post again myself (for reasons unrelated to the subject of this thread), but I'd sure like to see your great posts when I'm lurking in future... and I don't think I'm alone in that.
Thanks all for your lively company - I have enjoyed the last few months. Best to all, Fiona
Modified by Fiona at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 00:22:56
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I love your art and your photos and that would be a huge loss. I was really hoping someone would find a linked site for your posts...so when you made a picture those who want can go there. I can tell you for sure your photo art is helpful to ME. I think some of it is SO CREATIVE that it says more than any post could. I am sure you must feel the rule is about you. That must suck. I feel really sad. Even though I think the rule might be the right choice I REALLY REALLY hope if you want you'll find a way to keep doing your creative stuff and post it somewhere else and then wouldn't you be able to link it? Anyway. I am sad and I really like you. If you need a break I know I have and its good. But know I will enjoy the forum a lot less without you, and your quotes and photos ( altered or not ) posted at the right time and saying a thousand words.
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Hilltop, nothing in my post was meant to be disrespectful of you or to insult you. I tried to add my feelings and my experience to the discussion. It is very hard to convince premies that ex-premies are fine, intelligent people. If they can pull up a picture like some that have been posted here, the cause is lost in many instances. Do the altered images serve some purpose? No doubt they do. I believe there is a place for them. I don't believe, however, that it is here, on what is many wavering premies introduction to the possibility of a world without knowledge. Yes, I have posted negative, blistering comments about rawat, as have many people. At least text must be read, not glanced at and disposed of in a second as "What a horrible picture. Did you see what those exes did to Maharaji?"As I said earlier, the actual images or rawat are invaluable. I don't have access to those, as I was never a premie. What those archives of text, photos and videos has meant to me cannot be calculated. I believe the strength of images is in those, the things rawat actually said and did. The truth is the best, the only way to fight rawat's cult. Bring the truth to light! He can't deal with it. It would be my guess that deep inside EV, the altered images are made use of to discredit all ex-premies. This is, at least for me, a fight for my husband's soul and for our marriage. It is deadly serious. If it can be won, it has to be won with facts.
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Altered pics, like all satire, can be good, bad, sharp, dull, effective or not and everything in between. We've fought over this before several times and the bottom line has be to that it's the forum admins discretionary call and that's that. It shouldn't be that big a deal one way or the other. On the other hand, I don't buy into the idea that premies might mistake us for wild-eyed crazies or whatever you said just because we make fun of Rawat's image that way. The might say they see us that way but they're lying. They know what's what. This is satire and parody and they understand that. They just won't admit it perhaps. If there was any chance that your husband would ever leave the cult, I can't imagine that would in any way be frustrated by satire on this level. But, like I said, I can well imagine your husband or any premie pretending it's a big issue. Premies are liars.
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My computer, for no apparent reason lost a system file, and repair in XP seems a bit hit and miss.. In short trying to get it back, I wiped everything..
When I finally got it back and reinstalled everything and got the internet connection going again it looked unfamiliar. all blue, not purple except for new posts.
When I worked out where I had read up to. I was shocked.
I accept and understand the position of admin and agree, having heard the explanation, but that does not mean you have offended anyone here Hilltop. I have really enjoyed your posts and not just for your artworks. They often helped me to burst any remaining bubble of fear of Maharaji, even though I began losing respect for him decades ago.
I'm afraid if something is funny to me I laugh. I do believe it is a virtue to respect all life and human beings, as an old Spanish friend made me see once, years ago, when we spent a week driving to and from a training seminar.
Yet in the case of Maharaji this rule does not apply. I started that week defending his criticisms of Maharaji's Rolls Royces and aeroplanes, and luxurious properties. Hollowly I tried to say that I was sure he used them all for good purpose to propagate. That they were not luxuries but necessary tools to do his work.
I don't know where My Spanish friend is now and haven't seen him for many years, but I shall always be grateful, though we argued quite heatedly at first. I was already well disillusioned by the whole Rawat thing and had not attended a programme in many years. Yet still a block was in place that could not hear criticism of Maharaji.
Somehow he made me see that the inability to be able to stomach criticism of Rawat was a very dangerous characteristic, one which he had seen to his disgust in other premies that he knew.
In that week he weened me off this defensive stance re: Maharaji and by the end of the week I was able to not only hear and accept him call Maharaji many words which boiled down to his being a short, fat, greedy, uncaring megalomaniac. I was also able to agree and enjoy our drives.
I often suffered bouts of guilt that week but from that time on I have gathered momentum in the ability to call a spade a spade. In retrospect I regard that week as one of the most important stages in my exing. I was able to examine that block that causes premies to freeze when such talk ensues. It makes them feel uncomfortable. Before they even become aware of it, defensive words form on their lips.
Because he "gives knowledge" it's all OK they think. He needs all that to "spread peace". He deserves the best etc. etc....
He made me realize that the best: maybe the only tool that works; is to overcome that need to protect Maharaji's name and reputation at all costs. He made me see that in this case it is a duty and also the most effective and rapid form of "healing" for those who have fallen under the trance of premiehood.
Exing starts and never looks back if only we can just bring ourselves to say a few derogatory words about Maharaji. Strange though it may sound and feel at first.
As I said I am all for respecting every living thing, especially human beings. However, because Maharaji is the epitome and walking manifestation of the disrespect of humanity, it is, in fact, not disrespect at all to say things which bring Maharaji's image down to size. It is a duty and a service to humanity and it is grasping and utilizing a very strong, final and effective way of stepping beyond the cloying and detrimental influence of Maharaji in our precious life. It is one step in the direction of protecting humanity from him and his poisonous and devastating effect on human life.
I am deeply sorry to see the rift which has occurred here in my absence. I am very sad to see both Hilltop and Fiona saying they are going from the forum. I often post as if each post where my last; I usually am drawn quickly back though. You are important to me here, as I know you are to others: waverers yes; but also let us not forget those who have not heard; but may be about to hear about him for the first time.
I cannot promise that even after 3 to 4 decades they will not still be suffering many ill effects, particularly in their mental and emotional beings. Anything which can defuse, debunk, degrade or dismiss the presumptuous and deluded claims that are made my Maharaji and his mind bent subjects is a good thing, and highly recommended for the mental well being of the human race and its members.
While I do not disagree with the admin. decision and indeed welcome it, (we need boundaries sometimes): I strongly defend you, Hilltop from any need to feel apologetic or to feel that anyone (other than Maharaji who needs and deserves it) has been disrespected. The same goes for you: Premie Spouse. Your words have always been most welcome and to the point.
And I stress again, the words of my Spanish friend: that disrespecting Maharaji is a virtue, nay a duty. Those who cannot do it are still entrapped in a very vulnerable and dangerous state of mind, or extremely polite.
Hilltop you have always seemed a most polite, gentle and truthful person, I am glad to know you and hope to go on enjoying knowing you. Please do not feel any need to go, you are so appreciated, and your recent increase in posted words has been a pleasing bonus.
Fiona, you too have been an invaluable presence here. Although I don't know your reason for saying you're going, I thank you for your posts, especially your kind Phoenix Year posts and your Hakuin which I personally enjoyed, I would hope to hear from you again if you so decide.
Losing Pals
Modified by Saph at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 19:17:41
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And I stress again, the words of my Spanish friend: that disrespecting Maharaji is a virtue, nay a duty. Those who cannot do it are still entrapped in a very vulnerable and dangerous state of mind, or extremely polite.
Well said Brian... we need to remain clear about that. Glad to see you back online Dave
Modified by Milarepa at Wed, Oct 18, 2006, 05:37:44
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With reference to Maharaji. disrespect may not be quite the right word. There is no need to be impolite or insulting for the sake of it.
And yet, if that is what it takes to release the pain that is wasting a life, it is, I'm afraid; (cult leader), worth it, even though it is negative for the leader and his flock.
It is not his humanity that we are offended by, but his compulsion to lead and the ethics of his leading, once victims have been selected.
I realized, some time ago, (you might have noticed) I went from referring to the leader as m to m. to maharaji and then Maharaji. This is because I realised that: though we wish quite definitely to show the world that his teachings are hollow and his knowledge ill named and merely a hook to win pockets to delve into:
(I realized) that we cannot take this leveling of his molehill too far, we do not want a hole in the lawn. We cannot take away the fundamental dignity that all humans have. We can only decently chip away at all surplus and accessive respect.
We have to draw the line at the level of his basic humanity. Even now, if he would take my humble advice and use one of his other names and get a small garden nursery business, or flight training school? somewhere where he is unknown, (a hard one I admit). And if I were to see him walking down the street, in a few years time I might retain a fundamental respect for life and all human beings, enough to give a curt but unforgiving nod.
But because he insists he is above and better than us, he must expect that those who disagree will also explain themselves, and in some cases with equal ardour as they once spoke or wrote with to spread his errors.
There is no need to insult below the belt of his basic humanity, this will inevitably, (given the sweet nature, deep down, in all unspoiled human beings,) bring hordes to his defence from the human race at large.
We need I think to be very accurate about this, and carefully remove his crown and krishna outfit that he still wears inside, and pare them away gently where the cloth has become stuck to his inner flesh, so that eventually he is stripped to his inner under garments but unscathed in his humanity itself.
I desire the stripping of all his over exagerated boasts, but I can't take it past the level of his basic humanity, without digging into the foundation of the basic respect I insist is due each and everyone of us.
Thus, whatever he has done, I have to finally admit that standing there silly in his inner underwear, he is still a man.
(Just) (Sorry!) He is still, I have to relucantly admit, a member of the human race. Thus he gets a reluctant capital M. But he cannot accept just being a member of the human race. HE continues to insist in HIS Specialness.
So, I'm afraid old premie friends and associates, though it's hard for you, it is in fact, humanitarian to defuse the leadership of the self appointed false leader. I am actually sorry, because I know it hurts, but in being loyal to the human race at large and the "truth" (whether such a thing exists absolutely or not), I am trying to redress an imbalance. To restore the equality of humanity and to return to a level where freedom is again even possible, though, in my own case, I have little or no evidence to suggest that the mental and psychological damage which has been inflicted by his ministry on earth will ever be repaired in my life, for I am a broken man.
Lp
Modified by saph at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 07:40:46
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Saph, It is not his humanity that we are offended by, but his compulsion to lead and the ethics of his leading, once victims have been selected. First, please speak for yourself. Prem Rawat offends me deeply and I don't believe he is worthy of forgiveness or even a nod of the head. I don't begrudge him the right to live his life, of course, but he doesn't deserve anything more than that. He stole so much from premies and none of it ever belonged to him, not even on a basic human level. In fact, what Rawat has done to people is quite close to what I would consider crimes against humanity. I wouldn't call what he does as "leading people," either. I'd like to see him release the premies from the bonds he has created, return our money, set up a counseling fund, and get a real job or live in poverty for the rest of his life. Actually I wouldn't care what he did with the rest of his life. That's what he deserves. He created an enormous mess of thousands and thousands of people's lives. I've witnessed the grave harm he has done to countless people who've come to the forum so injured and wounded by him they could barely function. I've dealt directly with a few exiting premies who were suicidal over Rawat. Many premies did kill themselves because of him. I knew one woman who did. But because he insists he is above and better than us, he must expect that those who disagree will also explain themselves. He did say "I'm proud to be human." How noble of Prem Rawat to say that, whatever it means. I don't care in the least what Prem Rawat expects. He doesn't deserve respect or anything from people. Ex-premies have explained and complained for many, many years now and his response has been "unlit matches," "rotten vegetables," or "Hate Group." Not to forget his abandonment of the innocent children -- who were Jagdeo's victims -- when they needed Rawat's leadership and protection the most. Some of them still haven't been able to rebuilt their lives. When Susan and Abi were so vocal on the forum, and Abi was so ill in every way, he unleashed his cult honchos on them who did nothing more than harrass and blame her for the abuse and for not reporting it. Now how was an eight year old rape victim in a cult going to report it?!? Those actions are unforgiveable. Saph, you can write nice words, but where the rubber meets the road, Prem Rawat is a parasite of the worse kind. And if I were to see him walking down the street, I might regain a fundamental respect for life and all human beings, enough to give a curt but forgiving nod. Oh come on Saph. That's all you'd want to do? You wouldn't want to tell him off? Ask him to explain himself? You'd forgive him? Frankly, I'd expect more from you. Btw, I capitalize his name because it's correct English grammar to capitalize a proper noun. There's nothing more to it than that.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 07:37:47
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I will then delete this message
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This is a discussion, not an exercise in censorship.
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Ok.... I had already seen a few errors that I corrected before I noticed your reply, nothing much, (I was distracted by home problems during the writing) but one definite improvement I made was to change forgiving to unforgiving (please note I said if he left and got a job I might....) (now underlined) and to add flying school, and a few additions like:-
"But because he insists he is above and better than us, he must expect
that those who disagree will also explain themselves, and in some cases
with equal ardour as they once spoke or wrote with to spread his errors."
Forgive me if I'm not shouting at the fake Lord enough today, perhaps I'm all shouted out.
Modified by saph at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 09:00:42
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I was trying to not shout as it were but be rational and offer him one more chance to walk away. but of course it is imaginary I know.
I doubt if he will read it even if it is his old mate Ananda Giri. Personally if I was in his shoes, which I emphatically assure you I am not, I would find the thought of a gardening business with my own van in Khatmandu or a neat little flying club somewhere in Utter Pradesh quite alluring, certainly better than the crappy job he has now.
But that's just me. Please remember Cynthia that I am writing hoping firstly: that he will read this; then the waverers, then the premies; then the general non premie public lest they fall foul of his minions. I apologise to say, only fifthly am I writing to satisfy ourselves, the ex-premies, or, for that matter, to argue amongst ourselves: still less; in fact, not at all.
Thanks for the comment about nice words, writing is practically the only part left of me that still works.
Little Puzzled
ps. of couse what I might actually do if I saw him in the street I have absolutely no way of knowing and to describe what I might feel like doing is posturing, which is why I used might: (I might nod curtly or I might.............................................................................
Modified by saph at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 08:50:24
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But that's just me. Please remember Cynthia that I am writing hoping firstly: that he will read this; then the waverers, then the premies; then the general non premie public lest they fall foul of his minions. I apologise to say, only fifthly am I writing to satisfy ourselves, the ex-premies, or, for that matter, to argue amongst ourselves: still less; in fact, not at all. Saph, I'm not asking you to change and be different for me. I'm not asking you to change your writing style either -- I like it! That's the last thing I'd ever ask of anyone here or anywhere. I don't see this forum as a place to talk to Maharaji anymore because what I write here is mostly for myself and I consider it communication between the people with whom I conversing. I'm the chief beneficiary of what I write -- I'd be dishonest not to admit that I get a lot from the interaction here and from writing. I learn a real lot, too. That's also for me. One thing I love about having left the cult is the ability to be selfish in a good and healthy way. I don't know if Rawat reads this forum. I would doubt he could stand reading any criticism because he's such a pathological narcissist. Narcissists cannot hear criticism without becoming enraged. But, I do know for a fact, that Elan Vital monitors and documents all the posts here -- they must have huge files on us all by now. Why not write him an open letter here? I've done that before and aside from being very cathartic for me, it was the only way I knew there was a remote possibility he would ever read it. So, don't go changin'...
Here's a cyber hug. Cynth
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Yes, you're quite right again, dagnab it, I left myself out (again) so that puts ex-premies down in sixth place? No! I have to admit my grading system is far to austere. I mostly post because I love you guys, who was I kidding? Good idea about the open letter if only for therapeutic reasons. Do the EV monitors ever read it I wonder, I mean not combing it for fodder for their hate crimes but actually sit down and read it? I hope so. Well, if it just sits in stacks somewhere, they're the ones renting the space.
Lp
Modified by saph at Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 09:17:46
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Hi Premie Spouse, It is very hard to try and show current premies that the ex-premies aren't just a bunch of angry, frothing weirdos. Anything premies can use to "prove" their point, they will latch onto with a death grip----as indeed, they did with the MacGregor affidavit. I have found it extrememly difficult to maintain my position that all ex-premies are not raging crazies "out to hurt Maharaji" in light of things they have seen here. That's kind of a distorted way of thinking about it because it's not ex-premies' fault how premies perceive us because they view exes through Rawat's dark glasses. It's always been part of the delusion that Prem Rawat is perfect and above criticism and reproach, so any criticism is going to make premies upset and uncomfortable. Premies have been calling us haters for years now, before the Elan Vital website endorsed it. Plus, I don't believe the forum is for the satisfaction of a true-believing premies for if it were, this would be called "Premie Chat," and none of us would ever have gotten out of that cult. A second point is that the actual pictures available are so damning, it is more effective to post them exactly as they appeared, either in print or from videos. Nothing can beat seeing what rawat did to himself with those costumes! With his quotes included, they are priceless. I agree, although I know for a fact that premies come here and to EPO to get copies of the old stuff (photos, satsang, etc.) because one of the biggest hypocricies about the Leader was his call for the destruction or return of all those damning materials in the early 1980s. Premies always want to have things both ways, don't you think? On a lighter note, I sent a picture of the lord sitting on his throne in his Krishna getup to a friend. That friend's response was, "Oh my God!!! Where are his spike heels? It looks like he went into the Dollar Store, bought every tacky thing he could find and glued them all to that hat!" That's a photograph that presumably rawat approves of. He was a big boy, no doubt he dressed himself in that mess, and he is smiling at the camera. Nothing could speak louder than that.
That struck me as hilarious because it reminded me of 1979 and 1980, when I lived in Miami and spent some of my "spare time" making malas and embroidering gold threads onto some of Rawat's Krisna pants with another devotee, (name withheld). We absolutely shopped in cheap stores for doo-dads and other baubles to put on the pants and malas that he wore at the programs of the time. We didn't have dollar stores back then, we had the "five and dime" type stores or typical craft stores. And we did call it shopping for "doo-dads."
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 06:56:53
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Lovely to get your "outsider" , untainted take on things Premie-Spouse.Thanks. Axis is so right......All that brainwashing over years and years runs deep. Just one point re: Krishna Crown LOTU sitting on throne photo of which you say..... "That's a photograph that presumably rawat approves of." " approved of " at the time maybe, but now I think that whole section of his manifestation on earth in a human body has been airbrushed out of history. SSSHHH !! You never saw the photo Premie-Spouse.It never really happened. p.s. I have to agree that the true images of our little chubby Lord, all dressed-up are the most telling.
Modified by lexy at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 07:41:13
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All is so wonderful! We have come to a new phase, rejoicing for having found freedom. Victorious, we may behave at times like children, but we stand virtually "holding hands", together, to defend the TRUTH and will remain here until we receive the appologies we deserve. The game keeps changing. We must stay strong. Is all good! The "monster" has new tactics, and being that the best is yet to come, we will do the same: We must change our tactics also. There is always room to grow. LOL. I hope not to the sides. The photo of a butt (LOL=laughing out loud) was too much to me, so, I understand how you premies may have gotten offended. And if you want get EXTREMELY offended, all you have to do is visit EPO and read how your teacher is in REAL life. Then you tell me if you want to follow THAT. That will be an eye opener! Coming soon: A LINK DEDICATED SOLELY to his "quotes". Stay tunned, pray for grace, etc. LOL. Sincerely, ~Axis~
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"All is so wonderful! We have come to a new phase,
rejoicing for having found freedom. Victorious, we may
behave at times like children, but we stand virtually "holding
hands", together, to defend the TRUTH and will remain here until
we receive the apologies we deserve."
"The game keeps changing. We must stay strong."
You are one of a kind.
Left Premie
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The altered images issue has probably been the longest running of contentious issues on the various ex premie forums - on that basis alone it's probably worth all our whiles pondering why it is so contentious. However there is one thing I'm certain of - that is that forum owners/administrators/moderators must have the final say in all questions of how a forum is run. One of the things that cult members are very poor at is accepting disagreement - the reason for that (IMO) stems from the fact that disagreement introduces ambiguity, and the 'absolutes' on which cult thinking is reliant, get removed. No one is compelled to post here - although of course there may be a sense that there is no alternative place to express oneself as a former Rawat follower. Given that there is little in the way of restriction on language I think that an important function of what happens here is that posters learn to accept disagreement without running off to their respective bunkers. It happens that on the question of altered images I agree with John and Mike. One of things that concerns me is that in both language and imagery, ex premie forums have been predominantly culturally Trans-Atlantic anglophone. This cultural base is hardly surprising but unless there is some sensitivity toward other cultural sensibilites contributions from exiting Rawat followers from India and other parts of Asia may be inhibited. The growth of the Internet in India is now significant and there is every possibility that Indian premies are reading the EPO and PRMI websites. If any of them do come across this forum the language alone is likely to be shocking enough - but the altered images of Rawat while a source of humour to most of us regulars is likely to be grossly insulting to any potential ex in most Asian countries. We may never see Asian residents postering here but giving up one form of expression on this one forum seems a fare exchange for increasing the possibility that an Asian ex may post here in the future. Nik
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interesting point Nik, Curious question..is there any Spanish-language EPO equivalent? Tim
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I wasn't sure what I thought about this topic, until I was waiting for a fairly long post to upload, and thinking about the server space someone was DONATING. I like some of the altered images, understand some of the reasons against posting them here, but mostly thanks for reminding me that someone opened their house to me. I hope there is or will be a place for those images to be available. Maybe with appropriate warnings. Thanks ADMIN Chuck
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John, I don't honestly know whether you're offering to apologise because you truly regret your actions, or whether it's just a damage-limitation and face-saving exercise on your part. But I'll take your apology at face value, though you might see my departure from this place as a welcome loss (much as losing a pain in the neck is welcome). My leaving is something I don't have too many regrets over, and I hope others don't either (for whatever reasons!).As for Hilltop being able to post his valuable scans and decidedly individualistic artwork again - well, this isn't the only ex-premie forum, despite your protestations that it is. Hamzen's forum is still up and running, and in fact you have a link to it at the top right-hand corner of this, your "Prem Rawat Talk Forum". I've taken the liberty of posting quite a few pics there already, and if anyone would like to check them out, they're here:
http://hamzen1.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=duh I've often enjoyed contributing to this forum in its various incarnations over the years. Occasional differences of opinion are bound to happen - some of which might still be unresolved, but that's life. I'd like to wish everyone well, say "goodbye", "good luck", and "keep telling it like you see it"! Cheers
Chris (cq)
Related link: Folder for artwork at Hamzens' forum
Modified by cq at Sun, Oct 22, 2006, 13:20:08
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Chris,Yes, I know about Hamzen's forum, and no, I have never made any 'protestations' about this being the only ex-premie forum. What I have said is that if people have serious problems with the way we run this forum, then they are free to set up their own. I should perhaps have added 'or post elsewhere' as you are now doing. Hamzen's forum has been very quiet but maybe your pics will liven it up. John.
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You may have forgotten, but your actual words were:
"I'm the only person here who is providing any sort of ex-premie platform for any expression" Now I really must be going!
Related link: http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/11862.html
Modified by cq at Mon, Oct 23, 2006, 12:04:53
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What I wrote was true - Hamzen wasn't here at the time
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What I wrote was true - Hamzen wasn't here at the time
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