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Hi, This means that if I would like to hear your stand on Darshan I must e-mail you? I understand darshan. I did it many, many times. And you? Am glad you came back! 
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A very polite and unwasteful lovingly altered old picture IMO,
Thanks Hilltop
Lp
Modified by Saph at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 09:42:17
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Hi Saph, I read your post to me, posted here, a few days ago, in Berlin, thanks for reposting it. I'd forgot my password or name or something, so couldn't reply. Thanks for putting it up. (and thanks for sorting me out John) You can follow our progress, or lack of it, on http://blog.myspace.com/anthonyginn Hope all is well with you and yours. Glad we got together before we left. See you when we get back. Dot and I leave for Moscow on Sunday. take care, anth the self publicising bloody blogger.
Modified by Anthony Ginn at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 16:00:40
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From "I show you God" he became "GOD" to his followers/devotees.  Vampire of LIGHT. PS: Did you e-mail me? Hilltop, every time I begin posting in this site, between brakes, only then I get viruses in my PC. Many of my programs have been corrupted. Somebody is coming Saturday to help me fix the problem. Best regards and thank you once more for your posts. Â
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Hi Axis, Yes I sent you another e-mail yesterday and so far it hasn't come back. Sorry to hear about your computer problems. I'll call you over the week end... Hilltop
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Jon, The point about this forum and its predecessors is that it is PUBLIC. Anyone with Internet access can read what is written and that gives a a vital relevance to the process. Taking the discussion off into some corner of cyberspace simply reprises the standard premie behaviour of moving difficult questions into a private space where they can be 'dealt with'. Of course you don't have to answer/respond to anything you don't want to - but if you are going to respond at least have the courage of your convictions and do so openly. So far you've been very selective about how you have responded and you've avoided all challenges to the propaganda that you've written here. Here's a reminder of something you haven't addressed: >NO MATTER WHAT happens we can go to that life-giving place within each one of us< Define life giving. Premies show no greater grasp of life than the rest of humanity and apart from the wealthy international crowd, many have fallen into early decrepitude. What is "that place" ? Can you show that it is anything other than an anoxic response ? A boost of endorphins and rebound seratonin ? And that 'love' you feel for the master, is that not merely an habituated secretion of oxytocin prompted by sensory cues ? Nik
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Not only are you trying to manipulate people here into emailing you privately so you can avoid open ended, public discourse, you've gone brazenly ahead and told us what to say if we do email you! That's control freakery.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 05:15:07
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"That's control freakery."
I can't imagine where Jon learnt that from.
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That takes some chutzpah.
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>That takes some chutzpah.< Or just stupidity !
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Probably he thinks we need 'saving'. 10/10 for effort, it is not worth scoring other attributes that come to mind. Mind, oh yeah, that it what we need saving from. T
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....by sending me the 2 grand (sterling) he'll save by not having to go to India next year, then I can send it on to Gordon bleeding Brown who I owe it to, & he can then use it to help save the social fabric from collapse.
Simple really, mind doesn't come into it.
ps apologies for not getting in touch.......maybe we can meet up sometime, before Christmas.
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Hiya Jon I may have seemed snide when I accused you of 'masturbating in public' but sometimes thats whatit boils down to. If you are interested in analysing bliss/ the relationship between the 'Master' and student, then Im sure you would have found a way to answer people or to confess doubts as well as 'certanty.. however you havnt. I wonder if by email correspondence you would simply like to broadcast more satsang. You dont really need us to say a thing do you, just 'wow' and 'you've made it all so clear again' | I may have seemed a little harsh, but I do find Maharaji porn stories and films a bit sick making these days.. its odd cos I had an insatiable appetite for darshan stories and glimpses of his boundless love and glory, but nowadays its a bit like smoking in front of born-again ex-smokers... it seldom goes down well. Putting that aside for a moment, I think it is worth reiterating that the state of post-premiedom is actually a very clear and happy one, once you get through a VERY tough period or re-orientation. I was surprised at how much fear there was in me, fear of walking away from the only good thing, fear of annoying Him, fear of rejection, fear of the consequences of my actions etc.. tons of fear.Now, where did that come from ? On the surface M's modern (as opposed to 1970s/early 80s) message is all very open and 'take it or leave it'/ 'the door is always open' etc.. so why the fear? Dependency. It wasnt love, or 'the heart' or even 'bliss' which kept me with him so long, it was a subtle and not so subtle campaign to engender dependency upon him which only became apparant to me once I was on the outside... BUT the good news is.. the 'heart' the 'bliss' and KNOWLEDGE come with me ! Now.. what are those things without 'the Master?' BETTER. Much much better. Sounds impossible but its true. The psychological throne on which Maharaji sits is the same one occupied by the other phantoms of our age, Jesus, Allah and Elvis. It is a place beyond dispute or accountability.. and its a throne which the 'masses' are all to eager to have someone occupy... especially when the rest of the world is dark and scary. Well Ive lived through one such manoever, and its taught me a LOT. Im free as a bird now,and able to live and learn and love without an unhealthy weight of gratitude burdoning me .. oh I know the tears of gratitude are sweet, but a TRUE teacher would tell you to get a grip and get on with life. Dont get stuck in his emotional swamp... not for too long. Blessings to all the Premies x |
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Hi Jon, Thanks for coming back.
"Please don't waste our mutual time by being disrespectful and please don't betray my trust"
OK, I'll try. I'm sure you mean that for here too.
"I love the Love which gives me Life"
This seems a logical step, but I find it is not clear; what, if anything, is the Love which gives you life?
I am not so far away from premiedom, that you will have to explain it to me. I know all the rap, the concepts, the beliefs trying to be incontravertible truths, but I truthfully do not know if any Love gives me Life, it's a nice idea, I could wish it were true. That still, however, would not in any way lead to a conclusion in me now, that that has anything to do with Maharaji.
I appreciate that breathing (along with many other essentials) has something to do with life, but still a blank. Maharaji did little more than try to ride his whole entourage on the idea:-
That becoming conscious of the sound of the breath, and recognising that to be in a remote way related to the identity of the force which sustains life: to the point where it might be construed as the "name" of that force; can (by further extrapolation) be construed to be: becoming conscious of god.
Not a totally stupid idea; but an implausible mental pretzel forming leap of wishful thinking and optimistic association; and one proven to supply a steady income, in the past, to the purveyor. But Maharaji couldn't even say or remember that, so he simplified it all down to "focus on your breath!" 
"If you don't like me for that, for loving Maharaji as well, no problem."
May I split this in two?
How could I not like you for loving the Love that gives us life. If such a Love exists (and I accept happily the possibility) I thank you for loving that which, potentially, gives me life also.
Now again the old chestnut:- I see no reason to connect Maharaji to that either.
Thousands of people in India give this knowledge, now the Internet gives it. Is the W.W.W. the Love that gives life now too? (The time that I spend sitting bowed before it, you'd think so.)
But no: "knowledge" is a relatively insignificant idea in the wealth of method and practice associated with the science of Yoga. It is a health orientated system of inner and outer self discovery, not worship, or enslavement, or asset stripping or need to keep gathering in a field with a man in a foreign country, regularly.
And besides: Maharaji is the worst practicing premie I have ever known. I witnessed decades ago that he neither meditates nor understands this knowledge. He is a showman who has learnt the family business by being born into a very active example. He's heard all the words, all the obtuse, convoluted arguments, he knows all the arm twisting rhetoric. He didn't have to even try. He started (he thinks) from a master position. His way is exactly identical to his father's. He is inventing nothing, just trying (very badly) to copy him. But he is attempting to do this without any of the virtues his father might have portrayed; and in a West which does not emote in the same way as India over these matters. Nor, probably, has Maharaji anything like the same yogic attainment as his father, but who knows, we must give them the benefit of the doubt: Shri Hans might have been equally; a great showman.
I felt and talked just like you once. Now I feel like this, free, clear, alive, connected, and fulfilled. Anything's possible.
Modified by Saph at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 12:23:04
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Jon,My own gripe with Prem Rawat is nothing to do with 'knowledge' and the concepts he has attached to it, but rather on the human level, which is where we all are, I am totally unable to accept his silence on all the abuse done under his umbrella and the lies he as sanctioned. It is for him to answer, but obvioulsy he thinks he is above everyone and has proved himself anything but honest. This says to me that premies have no real values and are as disingenuous as the Catholics who are ok with Catholic priests being relocated when they are caught sexually abusing. Or with Islamists shooting nuns. It is the same dangerous mindset. Premies have 'surrendered' basic honesty to 'whatever maharaji says', that is why so many remain isolated. At least Sai baba devotees don't lie, They say they are happy for 'god' to 'take the karma from their (male children)' just like Jagdeo told children to take off their clothes because their clothes are 'mind'. Premies need to get their heads out of the sand.
Jethro
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Jethro Sand?
T
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Hi John, You mention the "love that gave you life". The love that gave me life was the love between my father and mother. The love that gave my children life was the love between my wife and I. I don't love the love, I love my wife. I don't love the love between my father and mother, I loved my father and my mother (they are no longer with us). Can you see where I'm coming from? I agree, it's a miracle to be alive, and I have no reason whatsoever to dislike you. Some of my dearest and closest friends are premies, and I love them too. I may not be able to respond to any reply as I'm travelling around a bit at the moment and don't get to a computer too often. Anyway, good luck on your journey. Anth who was also initiated into the cult in 73.
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JOH is a self evident sophisticated religious megalomaniac (i should know). To me his tone is an obvious slap in the face and nothing more. Yet I recall two instances (maybe more) of his behaviour being assosciated by exasperated folks here with masturbation and ejaculation.Fair enough folks, no probs,I don't wish to inhibit,just my twocents worth. So call me old fashioned, but I would like to put in a good word here in support of those two maligned activities, particularly the later-just to redeem the language a bit. "Wanker" I admit does seem the ultimate epithet for the likes of JOH (perhaps even "complete wanker" considering his latest offering"-but using the word that way just isn't fair to it imo. It just isn't fair to wanking!. And yes male ejaculation is by defenition a psychic outpouring, directed towards another person too, but it surely mustn't be connected too often with psychic violence. Ejaculation is in itself a complex thing (I might also add "difficult to get right !". JOH is extremely strategic in his managment of intentions and of his competent high status thrusting. He is cool,witholding, but of course has no more in mind than destruction to his surroundings: so, yes, linguistically violent, with (he hopes concealed) intention to subvert and control. But that state of mind of his I think is simultaneaously beneath sexual metaphor and above it. I don't think masturbation and ejaculation can be realistically connected with the likes of him.(his behaviour that is).There should be some other ultimate verbal sanction found. Even "spiritual wanker" won't do somehow for such a cold and narrow psycho-artist. I think ejaculation and masturbation concepts should be preserved for warmer more spontaneous human situations. But as I said above I am not moaning here as of course I have no right to as we all know. JOH is soo interesting and transparent in his game.How he craves our respect. Maybe knowledge was/is sexual. Love Bryn
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Bryn, Ignorance doesn't have to be sexualized. It was a simple metaphor and nothing more. I suppose the reason I used it was because it was a crude way of expressing what I felt was coming at us from Jon. I think ejaculation and masturbation concepts should be preserved for warmer more spontaneous human situations. You have a point, but that doesn't mean I won't use the analogy again.
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Yes of course, for sure.
I just noticed that somehow female orgasm is sacrosanct as a metaphor, but male is available for usually low stuff.
All the best to you and beautiful Vermont.
Love
Bryn
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It seems to be a subjective definition. Anyhow, you are of course free to love whatever and whomever you want. I guess being "in love with love" is also okay, although of course it's a kind of meaningless statement. And if that's all Maharaji was about, that also wouldn't be a bad thing, but of course Maharaji is about a whole lot more than that, about a whole belief system that many of us have come to conclude is destructive, dysfunctional as well as being false, and we feel really happy being out of it completely. To use just one example, Maharaji is always talking about how "the mind" is a problem, about how "the mind" tries to distract you, make you self-conscious and unhappy, makes you desire things that won't make you happy to distract you from the peace and love "inside you," and all that. So, John, do you believe that? And if Maharaji is just about "loving the love," and having a nice exprerience of peace, why is the philosophy about "the mind" necessary? Also, if Maharaji is all about giving people a nice experience of "peace" or "love" or whatever you call it, why doesn't he provide that experience right when he tells people about it? Why do people have to wait 6 months or a year, watch a 100 hours of videos and be "selected" to receive knowledge? I mean, if it's not about indoctrination, why is all that indoctrination necessary? I just wonder if you have thought about these things, I mean in between feeling all the love for the love and all. Joe, who also got involved in the cult in 1973.
Modified by Joe at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 17:41:02
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Dear Jon, I too received K in 1973..age 17 in my case. You say you are a 'premie'. But who or what were you in 1961 and 1971? In life we accumulate 'concepts' about who we are. Sometimes they limit us. 'Premie' is just another one. It is an illusion. It has nothing to do with who you are. How could your self ever 'become' something? Amongst the many concepts that Prem Rawat teaches is the concept that through 'his' Knowledge he can 'reveal' yourself to yourself but that to truly have that experience you must let go of your concepts. OK Jon, so do what he says. Let go of the concept that there is a human Master ..Let go of the concept that you 'have Knowledge' ...Let go of the concept that you are 'a premie' ....Let go of the concept that Prem Rawat knows any more than anyone else. ..Let go of the concept that your inner feelings of love are connected in some magical way with Prem Rawat. OK so what is left ? Just yourself ...a bit of freedom and self-respect regained .....and ..look a pile of dead concepts on the floor Yours respectfully Tommo (and the waterbabies) ..a more apt name for ex-premies than monsters imo
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Tommo, thank you for reminding me of that book... it was a favourite, and I've just spent a good hour being 6 again. That's so fun. Here is a site with those wonderful illustrations. Best, F
Related link: http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9906/babies.html
Modified by Fiona at Wed, Oct 11, 2006, 23:13:54
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My association is the wicked witch from the wizard of Oz melting in water and all is left on the floor are her black hat and coat. Thank you Fiona for the lovely drawings, they are magical.
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Hi Tim, That's a great formula that gets to the truth of the matter. Well worth reading more than once ~ it should be made into a poster of some sort. I hope Jon reads this seriously. And then another poster could be Saph's words of wisdom about humor, etc. I've got to start writing this stuff down. Hilltop, with a pile of dead concepts on the floor. Smiling!
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Such is the Grace. "When I fail to see another being as I see myself, [overweight and ugly?] then wars will happen. When the causes and the reasons become greater than the sanctity of peace, wars will happen. When I fail to realize what is the value - the value - of being alive, wars will happen." Would it be flippant of me to interpret that statement as saying that ‘wars happen when Prem Rawat forgets the value of being alive’? WWII, perhaps? Hmm, no, the Cosmic Kid wasn’t even a dirty twinkle in Shri Daddy’s eye back then, but it’s an interesting question. Imagine Prem Rawat, already fat on the wealth that running a cult scam can bring you – or, if you prefer, Shri Hans – living in a humble, three-storey, terraced house in Amsterdam, circa 1939. The Frank family live next door. Anne, a teenage girl, up in the attic writing a diary... I don’t know. Fuck knows. But I can’t imagine much in the way of heroic Rawat-clan risk-taking, even on the part of the man who started it all by not realising the value of life... I am pretty sure Anne Frank understood the value of being alive (as opposed to not being alive), as do we all. And we’ll all be dead, soon enough, as will Prem Pal. But he, at least, understands the value of your support while he’s on the planet. Shit, does any premie really still imagine that when his turn comes, Prem will merge with the infinite, after several days’ lotus-posed isolation, so calm, so peaceful that they’ll have to hold a mirror up to to his piggy mouth to check whether he’s still alive? (I bet he can’t even do a lotus) Or even that he’ll slip on a bar of soap in the shower, like his dad? That would at least appear attractively half-human. Rather than die in a drunken coma after another row with his four-armed, tiger-goddess missus over the Monica business, and dwindling trinket and video sales. The trick is, not to give him any more money than he gives you, in the meantime. It’s common sense, really. Never AGAIN... Nige
Modified by Nigel at Thu, Oct 12, 2006, 17:13:06
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