I recall one of the most important things that was stressed in the premie community when I had first contact in 1973 was that Guru Maharaj Ji was beyond normal ethical rules as Gurucharanand later said "M.is M. He can do anything" and it was subtext in stories about him. It was in the satsang air.

'Lila' was one of the rationalisations /excuses used for his behaviour. I was very impressed by all those people in the ashram who I then thought were manifesting the Knowledge through their asceticism. I later realised they were doing so because they thought they should, not because of some higher consciousness. These people seemed to consider Rawat could do anything blamelessly. Some of them learnt he did and kept an x-rated silence.

Now some of them are demonstrating there is nothing Rawat can do or has done that cannot be accepted by them.

One post by John Miller says: "Hans, we both go back a very long time… I was in the room when you were born. I was your childhood play-pal for years. I spent my days with you in your homes for years, until your family moved to California when you were 7."

Another astute person pointed out incredibly weird that was.

Shana is an incredibly compassionate, wise, caring person as well.  Her judgment in many situations has been better than mine especially with regard to assessing someone's motives or character.  She was also never a premie. 

I can also see there is affection and love between them and each is concerned for the welfare of the other.

They are both involved devoted parents who very much want to raise their child in a healthy and safe environment. 

I have first hand, recent, experience spending time with them. I feel very comfortable saying Hans thinks seriously about things, is perfectly capable of saying no, or correcting someone, respectfully. He makes his own decisions. His politeness, was notable for me, because he looks like he got the best facial features of both his parents, and at first I couldn't help but see their faces in his. But as time went on, he is just himself. He is very respectful in how he converses with others, much more so than you would expect someone raised with such wealth and status within a group to be. He seems to have a distaste for elitism.  There is just no truth to the idea he is some puppet of his wife. It's incredibly insulting, as is so much that was said, but this particular thing, the idea that Hans is in the control of Shana or ex premies, is just not what I have seen at all. 

Another thing, Shana pointed this out to me, I hope she doesn't mind my repeating it. They both have made Facebook posts, it's very clearly written by two different people, she volunteered, to me, that  her writing often has typos or spelling errors. She is self conscious about that too, but was self effacing in how she said anyone could see it isn't her because of how well he writes.  Any one can see her "voice" in her writing. And Hans, also, has a distinctive different writing style. I have read both styles both off and on Facebook. I don't even believe the people who know him, and say that they question whether it is him, likely believe what they say, he clearly has a writing "voice" and it's very much the person you meet when you meet him. 

I would may write more. But right now, sticking to my first person experience and observations and opinion, I am comfortable sharing this.

I am so concerned for both of them. How incredibly difficult this must be. We all know how nasty this cult is when threatened, and no one I know of advised them to speak out. In fact, at least with Shana's first post here, I urged her to edit some not because it wasn't true, but because without the context it might have been misconstrued. We I think most people advise caution. 

But do I understand why they speak out? Of course I do. It's their lives, their experiences, their right to speak of it.  

A long time ago, when A posted her story, Cynthia responded with "you did it, you are free".  Secrets are burdens, the shame is the perpetrators. Sometimes, telling the truth about the impact of abuse in your life, and trying to protect others, is healing. 

 

There were a couple of points in Don Johnson's article that might be overlooked amongst the more horrific accusation.

Hans Rawat: For the record, My father first gave me alcohol and cannabis when we lived in Miami Beach; there were several premies who saw this. I was seven. ... Also (He) drank cognac daily starting in the late afternoon and would regularly throw uncontrolled fits of rage directed at followers or family members, including his young children.

I turned 15 in 1965 living in a beautiful beach suburb of Sydney and basically living at the beach. It wasn't long after, that booze and then dope and LSD became a large part of the lives of our group. By the time I was 21 I was looking for a more spiritual life and left it behind but I've certainly seen a lot of dope and booze casualties and some deaths then and since.

I really hoped that my children would avoid or escape those possibilities.

Booze, dope, Rawat DNA and John Miller as Hans' live-in child minder! It's a miracle the kid turned out alright. 

We know Rawat started drinking in relative secret at least as early as late 1973 while his public life was all about "spreading Knowledge." I'm becoming more convinced that he never believed any of those "Indian ideas" - many of which are worthwhile that he was explaining so badly. Not another Sugar Ant and Salt Ant, not another Necklace in the Stream, not another Thief and the Traveller, not another Ocean Frog and Well Frog, not another Taste the Mango, not another Drink the Water, aaagh ...

This is a son and a victim exposing his Dad. The details he has given corroborate so many other testimonies by people who have know Prem personal. He's clearly a troubled man, manipulative, bad tempered, self obsessed and very likely alcohol dependent. And he's molested children and may be an ongoing danger to others. 

How much more detail do you want? The plane's going down. The wings are on fire. You want to know which wing has the biggest flames? I'm sure no matter what Hans says there'll be plenty of people demanding more detail.

It's his Dad. His family. What Hans is doing can't be easy. We can't ask for more from him. We have no right. 

Make your mind up with the evidence presented so far. Christ! There's enough!

The only appropriate people to ask such questions are law enforcement officers and therapists, not just ordinary ones, but those who have specialized sexual assault education. 

Such questioning may also happen in the context of civil or criminal litigation, and because the experience is so traumatic for victims, it is part of why sexual assault is so underreported. 

Thank you 13, so much of this brings back memories from 20+ years ago. 

It's understandable that a more complete story would help. You were very clear it wasn't that you wanted. I was very upset back in the day when the other Jagdeo victim was harrassed for details, ... not an excuse. I am sorry.

Did I ask your identity? I don’t believe I did. I asked you if you had used other anonymous pseudonyms here and had some specific other anon names I asked if you had used it the past. Was I trying to figure out who you might be? Yes. You remind me of other anonymous posters in years past. Rest assured, I do not know who you are.

I don’t have that luxury. That was my choice when the people I reported Jagdeo to got named even though I had intended to keep their identities off the forum. I decided if they were named, I should be too. But I knew Randy Prouty had already likely shared exactly who I was. As I was telling the truth. 

I support Hans in saying as little or as much as he chooses. I would support him never speaking again or clarifying all of this. I do know, he is absolutely freely speaking and not under anyone’s control. I spent a couple days visiting with Hans and Shana last month. Hans is no one’s puppet, premie or ex or never involved. 

I am extremely skeptical of the people who are posting as if he is being held hostage by Cruella De Ville. It’s ridiculous if you have met them.  

  

I think the long term premies can be seen in two camps - those who it suits them, to be affiliated with Mr Rawat.  And those who believe in Maharaji and use their faith to put a lid on their distress.

I am just wondering where you are going with this?

Are you feeling the need to excuse Rawat's behaviour towards his children?

Or is it just an act of service - an attempt at a bit of PR.

We are all getting towards the business end of life.  

Just recently I read an article about a group of gay husbands in the LDS church and one of the phrases that came up was 'Suspension of Disbelief'.

Step A - set aside innate belief - that a mixed orientation marriage won't work.

It was the same becoming a premie - set aside your innate belief in yourself.  

All I did was open the door to a nice young man, we hit it off and I listened to what he had to say.  He was a premie.  

I clearly remember thinking that before I went ahead with my plans for my life (unformed but happening), I should stop and listen to what God has to say.  

I so don't believe in the idea of God any more, it was not something I ever thought about as a teenager but when the idea of God's messenger was put before me I already had the idea that God might exist in my head.

I think this is the best description of Prem Culters' attitude I've ever come across. I wish I'd written it and will certainly use it in the future.

Let's bear in mind that Prem was living in the US, married an American woman and abandoned his Indian traditions so much that his mother and brothers abandoned him. He in turn surrounded himself largely with people from the West.

I think it worth stepping back to remind ourselves why - distasteful as it is - it is genuinely a service that you do in exposing this stuff - and that prembio does by keeping the historical files.  Because frankly I don't like reading it and generally I don't like salacious gossip.   

But the fact is that Prem Rawat is a public figure who for many years  has and continues to make his considerable wealth and career by retaining and attracting new  followers.  He claims to have some special insight, method and teachings that bring the possibility of personal peace and self-knowledge.  The credibility of this claim entirely depends upon his personal example -- in the 'spiritual' advice market that he operates in his own personal life is of core relevance and should stand clear and open to any reasonable level of scrutiny.  There should never ever have been a need for such a thing as an X rated premie.

Seriously -- would anyone even give the time of day to any supposed teacher of self-knowledge whose pitch ran along the lines of  ' I am a man  who acted out the part of Lord of the Universe/ Krishna while extorting the labour/ money/ inheritances as well as curtailing the careers and life-opportunities of my most dedicated followers who I hoodwinked into serving in my ashrams before I cut them all loose without a penny or thanks. I then pretended that noe of that ever happened and reinvented myself as a 'messenger of peace'.   I have a serious drink and anxiety problem and sometimes rage at/ bully and seek to humiliate members of my family and close follower.  I have been accused of enabling paedophiles within my organisation and even of interfering with my own son as well as feeding him drugs and alcohol as a young child.   But don't worry about any of that -- it is all just part of quaint traditional Indian family customs - a cultural thing.  So here we are again-  just keep listening to your breath,  attend my events, buy my books, listen to my talks and I will tell you about the possibility of peace - until your dying day.

Maybe something like the above could be included as a little disclaimer on TPRF or whatever Rawat inc's  current website is now?