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Since reading the details provided by Prem’s children
I’ve spent some time mulling over what I felt, what I wanted to say and whether
I should in fact post anything at all – the sense of intruding on private grief
is difficult to get to past and what I write below is not intended in anyway to
diminish the scale of that private grief. In the end I decided there was a responsibility to
make some comment, I’ve broken it down into three sections: Part 1. By way of intro and a bit of history. I used to post on this forum and its forerunners quite
extensively – mostly numbing everyone with numbers, money, and waffle about
organisations and Charity Law; for new readers/posters who didn’t know me back
then, here’s a cult involvement bio https://ex-premie.org/pages/journs/nikw.htm I would add the fact that as an outspoken ex
premie I attracted the cult's attention, was stalked and my family, including
at the time a child, doxxed. I can’t pretend these behaviours do not colour my
view of Prem and his followers. My immediate response to the family disclosures
surprised me, I felt genuinely saddened – I’ve known about all the large scale
dissemblements, the fakes, the lies and the petty fraudulences surrounding Prem
for over two decades, but the failures we are now seeing presented seem
especially depressing. I suppose my unexpressed wish for the end of Prem’s
career as a ‘charismatic’ was for a philosophical defeat, that at some point it
would be obvious to everyone that the fictions, the dishonesty and the unreason
would simply bring the circus to an unremarkable halt. To have Prem’s career end– and whatever the WOPG/PRF
priesthood wants, this is emphatically has to be an end, - as a miserable loss
of all authority because of harm to children is an ignominy that will taint
everything and everyone associated with Prem. In reality challenging the dishonesty of Prem’s
movement in the early 2000s required not so much a philosophical engagement,
but rather addressing the affront to the public interest of exploiting
charitable and tax exempt status that Prem’s backing organisations employed. Prem’s abandonment of Church status in the US, and
replacing most of the Elan Vitals was a direct response to ex premie activity,
and which had more to do with consumer rights than the questioning of beliefs. Ironically
ex premie activity likely made Prem’s movement just a little bit more honest
than it would otherwise have been. An unavoidable result of the family disclosures is that
once again the Prem supporting organisations are in the centre of focus; as
Maria 77 puts it a post below: “Given
that Rawat has access to children all over the world and most and foremost to
his grand children, the abuse does not concern only the past but the
present.
That makes
his strategy to make people not care about abuse even more dangerous because it
allows him not only to get away with his past crimes but continue them in the
present uncontrolled.” I’ll
deal with what I think a the key issues for the organisations in Part 2 >
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Part 2.
Trustee and Organisation Management: Safe Guarding responsibilities Whatever was hoped or expected by releasing the
private family discussions, the managements of the various Prem supporting
organisations have legal and moral obligations to acknowledge, consider and
explain all of the following: a)
that the allegations have been made
b)
what are the Rawat family’s and
specifically Prem’s personal relationship to the relevant organisation.
c)
the steps the Trustees/Management are
taking under Duty of Care and Safeguarding responsibilities.
d)
what action the Trustees/Management
are obliged to take in reporting these allegations as i) Law enforcement issues, ii) Regulatory issues, iii) public reporting issues, as material facts in respect of garnering
donations and other activities. In the post Epstein era, even where allegations relate
to historic abuse, publicly registered organisations cannot collude in covering
up material that may be relevant to safeguarding concerns. It is not necessary
for legal action to be in play. Beyond the fact of the disclosures, how the
family now seeks resolution is private to those hurt and abused. But the
organisations need to demonstrate their compliance with all regulatory and
legal duties to the public in the face of the information that they now
unavoidably have. What those duties are will depend on jurisdiction and local
regulatory structures – what they can’t do is pretend it’s business as usual. If the Trustees/Managements have integrity then every Prem
supporting organisation will immediately suspend activities, acceptance of
donations etc, and institute a review, bringing in external Duty of Care and
Safeguarding advisors to establish how each organisation is to respond to the
fact that its ultimate person of control has been accused of behaviour that may
suggest a continuing threat to one or more vulnerable individuals and groups
that the organisation may come into contact with. The key jurisdictions are the US and the State of
California (TPRF), Australia and the State of Queensland (IRF), Spain and
Netherlands ? (WOPG) and the UK (HDSK). While I can’t speak to the other jurisdictions,
the UK situation is unequivocally set out at: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-report-a-serious-incident-in-your-charity
and which defines loss of reputation as a serious incident that must be
reported. With potential media investigations in play, the HDSK Trustees can’t
say there is no substantial reputational risk facing HDSK, and they should act
without delay. Truthfully, if Prem has any integrity and was
concerned about his family and those who have followed him for fifty years and
more, he would now retire, close all the organisations and give up any kind of
public presence. Not that I have any hope that is what he will choose but it
would be the honourable thing. I leave it to others whether they see value in
contacting organisation Trustees to enquire about or remind them of their
duties to the wider community as well as premies, or whether contact with
oversight bodies is relevant. I’ve yet to decide what action if any I will take,
although if the current journalistic interest in Prem’s UK activities makes it
to publication anyone that maters will have been alerted. I some views on the wider issues of abuse, cult
history and responsibilities which I’ve posted as Part 3. >
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Part 3. Blame, responsibility and guilt I know that a lot of former followers disagree with my
perspective on this, I’m repeating because in my view the family disclosures go
the very heart of the thing that is unique about the Prem Rawat cult. For those of us who were early western adopters, broadly
the 1970 to 1975 premies, we did a very strange thing. For nearly all of us except
perhaps a few young children who were inducted by their parents, we teenagers
and young adults adopted as their focus of veneration a living person who was
younger than us, something which was not just culturally peculiar but a very
real transfer of the normal distribution of responsibility. Although I’m only a year and bit older than Prem, I
look back on that time with a degree of guilt at having accepted someone who by
dint of relative maturity, must have been more vulnerable than me, and was in a
position of exposure to what can fairly be described as ‘group madness’. Not
that I had any determined influence, I was just some kid in the crowd, but
being in a crowd doesn’t absolve personal responsibility and even a young
person can step aside and say “this is wrong”, I don’t recall anyone doing
that. When I left, I left quietly. Of course veneration of Prem started in India – Prem
was elevated to godhead long before all but a very few western recruits got
involved in the hysteria, undoubtedly those who bear the greater blame for
stealing Prem’s childhood are his family and the so call mahatmas. Those
individuals gave Prem the most disturbing childhood and adolescence, lacking
any meaningful passage to maturity he was propelled to an adulthood for which
he was wholly unprepared. Amongst the
most blameworthy of course are Prem’s mother and assorted mahatmas amongst whom
we know one to have been unequivocally a child abuser but I would suggest there
were others who were equally malign influences. The precise combination of
malignancies we’ll probably never know – unless that is Prem chooses to honestly
examine his life and make it public. The abused individual, whether the abuse was
psychological, deprivational, injurious or sexual does not of course have free
pass to themselves become an abuser. But the early life of an abuser is
important to understanding what is frequently a cross generational propagation
of abuse, it is a sequence that is often hugely difficult to break. It’s to be
hoped that at the personal level Prem’s children have found a way to break the
cycle, all the evidence from family psychology tells us it’s a hugely tough
journey. The cult that, depending on your perspective, Prem was
born into, or alternatively which was built around him, has been abusive in
multiple forms, and albeit largely lacking the intimate abuse experienced by
Prem’s children, in many ways it has the character of an abusive family. The
structures of the cult, its hierarchies, its legal supports, its organisations,
its money generating enterprises need to address their inherent abusive nature –
without that all involved, including the Rawat family members are not going to
be released from the abusive grip. I want to make one final point about responsibility.
There are two individuals both entirely peripheral to what most of us would see
as the main story of the cult, but whose actions had profoundly harmful
consequences. Firstly the English lawyer whose inventive legal structure
redirected donations from the nascent US Divine Light Mission, to 15 year old
Prem’s personal bank account. Secondly the California Judge who without any
serious consideration granted Prem “emancipated child” status. In concert these
two actions set up a culture shocked adolescent, surrounded by unquestioning
enablers and self interested grifters, to have access to wealth, power, opportunities
and temptations that he was wholly unprepared to deal with and for who there
was no supervising adult to step in and say no. In this circumstance, while no individual can be held
up as the abuser, the young Prem Rawat was IMO undoubtedly subject to a profound
structural abuse. It’s easy to berate Prem for his multiple failures as an
adult, some of which now seem possibly to meet the level of outright
criminality but in considering the whole story we shouldn’t neglect how that
adult was made.
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Back from retirement and you brought the calvary with you. Thanks for taking the time to put that together. As always your posts take a unique and vitally important perspective.
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Hi, and thanks for your posts, past, present and maybe.
I think there is evidence that I only became aware of over the past 20 years from his own reminiscences about his childhood that show that the young Rawat was often unhappy, fearful of his father, hated his education and was deeply resentful of his mother and her control of him and that he had no belief in the reality of the claims being made about him.
So I believe your sentence should read:
In concert these two actions set up a determined adolescent who knew exactly what he wanted, who chose unquestioning enablers and self interested grifters with whom to surround himself, to have access to wealth, power, opportunities and temptations that he was desperate to have and for whom there was no supervising adult to step in and say no.
I haven't yet collected this evidence into a coherent story but it has another claim to be true, it fits the Ockham's Razor test better than any others. It makes the young guru's actions, sometimes difficult to understand, comprehensible and also fits Dettmer's evaluation of his character.
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There are two group psychology phenomena that I find disturbingly relevant. One might be called the ‘doctrine of the conserved extra-ordinary’ – where some eminent person shows themselves to be fallible, and because they are extra-ordinary they are not allowed to simply fall to the state of the everyday mortal, they must go from angelic to demonic, from the very best to the very worst. The recasting of Prem from deity to sociopath seems to me to, too closely match a group behaviour, rather than the simplest of explanations, which is that Prem was just an ordinary kid in the extra-ordinary circumstance that some people pronounced him God.
The second phenomenon is a mirror of the first but is specific to children, it could be called the doctrine of ‘acquired adulthood by dint of evilness’ - we see this in criminal legal systems where a minor commits an act judged so horrible that the minor loses all the legal protections otherwise given to a minor. It’s a perverse response, it has nothing to do with the child but with societal demand that the fallen ‘angel’ should be branded demonic, and because there are no child demons, the demon must be an adult. Again this seems to me to be too close to giving the young Prem extra-ordinarily malign characteristics opposed to being just averagely adolecent.
There’s no doubt that as an adult Prem was never going to win a ‘good guy’ contest, but to place all the responsibility for the creation of this failed adult on the desires of Prem as a manipulative adolescent seems bizarre when we see a sequence of a child who: loses a parent at age 8, who is immediately declared divine, is set up as a perpetually performing satsang doll, and whose close adult influences include a subsequently revealed paedophile, a subsequently revealed murderous psychopath, a pathological germophobe, a fantasist grifter, an implicated child trafficker - and that’s before Prem even gets into the Western madhouse and whole new set of sycophants and enablers.
The recent revelations are about Prem as a parent, and in my view you can't understand the parent without understanding the parent's own childhood which necessarilly includes having an understanding of the adults who shaped that childhood experience.
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I think you're reading far too much into what I posted. We have evidence that Rawat was often unhappy and frightened in his childhood because he said so in times when he was sitting in the Kissimmee afternoon sun and relaxing as well as other times. His situation was pretty well unique and there were influences we cannot know.
I am saying on the evidence of another talk he had a few years ago he never believed the whole Prefect Master shtick because he says so. That is all.
I have edited the conversation to show the important point. TF is Tim Freke a New Age philosopher, by 'here' he means the West:
TF: I guess the question I want to is like when I was watching some videos from that time, when I was reading, after I read your book and looking at the difference. Thinking that's interesting, that journey that you've made, its a huge journey. At that time did you believe your own hype or not? ... I mean did about the you know the the whole Perfect Master and all the the Lord of the Universe
PR: Look, I had to go to school every day.
TF: No, I mean when you were here, here, when you were here
PR: No no, but in India too. I was already hailed a Perfect Master and I have to go to school and I was no Perfect Master in school so already this duality existed where you could be and you couldn't be so I come out, I come home, I'm not a Perfect Master. My mother is telling me, you didn't do this, you didn't do this, do this, do this. I go in on weekends or on school holidays out there and there's thousands of people cheering and going "Yay yeah yeah of course you are" and I was like well which one is it? Is it that one? or is it that one? See, and I realized I have to be me. I wasn't a student nor I was the Perfect Master.
So I'm saying that Prem is simply a boy who doesn't believe what people are saying about him but is going along for the ride and playing the role because of what it can bring him and the alternatives. That is not unusual, what is unusual is what people believe about him and the situation he was in.
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good thread, thanks Nik and all.
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Hi Nik,
I searched for California statutes governing board members/charitable organizations' Duty of Care and Safeguarding, but I was unable to find any. I did, however, discover that TPRF earned a four-star 100% rating from Charity Navigator and other rating services and it appears to be doing relatively well financially. In 2022, the most recent year available, TPRF took in $2,761,064 and spent $2,449,107 for a net income of $311,957. Year-end assets amounted to a healthy $3,925,825 from which it derives interest and investment income.
Relative to its small size, TPRF is a thriving, highly rated, reputable charitable organization, which, having a sense of the cultish impeccable standards set for its operations and employees, doesn't surprise me. I wouldn't expect anything less. Among all the organizations, TPRF and Timeless Today stand out beause Prem Rawat's two daughters, respectively, serve as presidents.
I mention all of this for two reasons: 1) to demonstrate for all to see how rediculously flimsy my efforts are and have been to imitate your well-researched fact-based statistical and legal analysis of such matters; and 2) to say that it's the gap between the public facing glossy images of those organizations and (versus) what transpired/transpires behind them that frustrates me.
Ever since these family disclosures surfaced, I've posted about my disgust with people who know the truth and continue to promote Prem Rawat anyway, especially when it comes to soliciting tax-deductible donations - from the public - in his name. How can people of integrity do that? And it's not just their awareness of these recent family disclosures, it's also their awareness of all the other hidden circumstances that are severely inconsistent with their public image, objectives and Prem Rawat's message of peace. It was the callousness and disregard with which followers of Prem Rawat decieved the public that in part caused me to leave the cult.
Far beyond how I feel about it all, which doesn't translate into anything, your insightful posts elevate it to the appropriate practical and real-world level. That's why I've continued to quote you occasionally during your long absence.
Thank you for your keenly insightful posts and it's great to hear from you again!
Bob
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They are rated highly based on their -
Whistleblower policy and
conflict of interest policy
Is having a policy good enough or do you have to follow your policy? Are the policies available to anyone to look at? If an organization doesn’t follow its own policy who is accountable?
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Duty of Care is a bit opaque in US Law but it is there, it comes under State Laws of Tort which does make it a bit different from most European legislation which is informed by Human Rights principles.
Nevertheless there is clear recognition that duty of care in US non profits has a significant role, although the focus is expressed more internally than to care of those impacted by the non profit, however in practice they should amount to the same thing: e.g https://www.councilofnonprofits.org/running-nonprofit/governance-leadership/board-roles-and-responsibilities What it means is that the Trustees of a non profit can’t, if they are acting ethically, pretend that some uncomfortable truth doesn’t exist, they have a duty to acknowledge it and where needed, respond accordingly.
Timeless Today is a private business so probably immune to outside influence, but the Trustees of TPRF should at the very least have had a formal discussion about what the implications of the recent public revelations have on an organisation that bears the Rawat name, not least any ongoing risk: https://nonprofitrisk.org/areas-of-expertise/youth-protection/ In the case of TPRF its President especially has a duty and if family loyalty involves a conflict of interest, then the post holder has to step down at least temporarily.
Anyway the responsibility is with the Trustees and it’s a measure of their ethical standing how they choose to act – or not.
Hope that helps
Nik
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Nik, thank you for posting again and sharing all of this. I love your part 1, 2 and 3. I can't help but think (as someone who loves to watch trials on tv; no special expertise) that it's like parts of a trial, in how you presented it.
1- is the problem. The moral or legal transgressions. Perhaps not just by the leader, but the followers and those who respond to an allegation of abuse. Did they respond as family? Did they respond as officers in an organization are supposed to when faced with an allegation that could endanger children by the person at the top ( never mind that the person at the top used to give Agya, and that people in past have found the idea that he could make a mistake, never mind do something morally or criminally wrong, as impossible, and a test of faith, lila, maya) . But pointing out that something like that should not be evaluated from within, in any organization, never mind one often called a cult, is so valid. I have the impressions on how the cult is messaging on it, and it's disgusting in how similar it is to how the Jagdeo issue was handled, and that is also relevant, because when something like this becomes a pattern of behavior, it's just a lot more serious. How it's not similar as this can be framed, and seems to be framed as, a family matter, and Maria77 as you cited, explained exactly why that is a dangerous way to think that may put the most vulnerable in danger. Of note too, if a group of people organize to protect an individual and organization around an issue of safeguarding children, that is problematic in itself.
2- you set up, a what are the "rules of the road" or at least, that is a charity in many countries, all of them, having their own standards and laws they are ethically and sometimes legally bound to abide by.
3- at what point, in a legal case, does someone consider mitigating factors? Many if not most criminals come from backgrounds that should lead, at least in part, in some level of mercy for their behavior. It rarely absolves them entirely. And maybe that's why they kick people off juries who know the witnesses, the lawyers, the judges and the accused. We wouldn't be chosen, but more importantly to your writing, neither would any of Prem Rawat's followers, and most importantly, none of the people in TPRF, Timeless Today, Priyan or whatever else, nor would anyone in his family.
But I have definitely heard rumors that premies and others are also focused on his bizarre upbringing and youth ( including the time where he was a young adult) as an excuse of some kind.
I don't think that is what you are saying. I know it isn't how I feel. Plenty of people are victims of abuse, even systematic abuse, and don't abuse.
I think it's so good to bring up the Colorado judge who made Prem an adult and the people around Prem Rawat as a teenager, who used him to their own ends, and that does include some PAMs, family members, and maybe his wife, as I see her as perfectly capable of realizing she had incredible power over the teenage perfect master, and exploiting that, and the reports of her being "gopi" like and him berating her bringing her to tears when angry being true too. Just a toxic mess.
I guess I would say, is juveniles are sometimes held responsible for their behavior. Adults, usually what is first considered is simply are they guilty or not. Then, once that is decided, comes the phase where people can discuss the life circumstances of the criminal. What is also considered then too is the victim impact too.
Two relevant links
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh7GPddTdN8
https://www.justia.com/criminal/aggravating-mitigating-factors/
Thank you for your amazing post. I volunteer you to write his biography.
https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/obstruction-of-justice-it-s-not-the-34658/
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"it's disgusting in how similar it is to how the Jagdeo issue was handled"
Or how similar it is to any wrongdoing that might result in extremely negative consequences for those at the center of it. As so often is the case, the choice is to acknowledge it and do the right thing, or attempt to obscure it and hope it all goes away. That choice, however, typically doesn't come into play until those at the center of the wrongdoing feel their interests are sufficiently threatened by someone influential enough to make a difference. Absent the authorities, press coverage, someone within the cult, or some other source, it appears to be much like waiting it out in the ominous eye of a hurricane.
Based on publicly available information and my own speculation, the story seems to go something like this:
"Oh s**t! Now what do we do?"
• Act normal. Don't panic. Don't tip your hand. Try to ignore it.
• Throw him under the bus.
• Undermine his credibility, isolate him and try to discredit his story.
• Blame it on false memories, possibly due to an accident, alcohol or recreational drugs.
• He's influenced by his wife.
• It was common in India. Unremarkable.
• Claim the recording was fake.
• Tell them the only thing real and important is this moment and that any pain or confusion (don't mention the victim or why you're bringing it up now!) anyone feels is by their own choice because they've chosen not to be in this moment.
"But I have definitly heard rumors that premies and others are also focused on his bizarre upbringing and youth (including the time where he was a young adult) as an excuse of some kind."
• After all, who's the real victim in all of this? Play the sympathy card based on his difficult childhood.
• You're either with him or you're not, and if you're not, you're in your mind.
• Setting this moment aside for a moment, cross your fingers and hope it all goes away.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Apr 01, 2024, 10:02:31
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Yes, that seems right to me. Another I have heard that PAMs have said, as if this somehow means something- "that's old news"
Let's look at how one Jagdeo victim was treated-
Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:53:20 (GMT)
From: ******
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pathologizing the victims
Message:
| Dear All, I just went into the 'Charles' site and was shocked and affronted by the patronising and abusive tone taken by this man towards the people who have been damaged by Mr Rawat and his cult. He seems to think that by portraying himself as an upper-middle class legal achiever his claims about EPO and Maharaji have validity. Doesn't he realise that there are a great deal of far more successful people out there in the world who would take less than a minute to recognise that Maharaji is the head of a cult. We have the weight of the worlds public opinion on our side and all EV have are a few, increasingly desperate, attempts to defend themselves. In the Wednesday edition of The Australian there was an article by a producer with 60 Minutes who described how his television team tracked down a pedophile called Dunn who was in hiding in Honduran. Once found he was extradited and is now in prison. Steve Barrett writes: 'Some of Dunn's victims became male prostitutes, some are heroine addicts, some are serving lengthy jail sentences - and some are dead' (p.4). We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. *********************************************** (deleted by Susan but a very serious statement) If we become angry about the abuse of human rights that has gone on in this cult and we speak out against it that doesn't make us pathological. The shame is all theirs. The fact that this apparently decent man 'Charles' remains silent about the Jagdeo issue says it all. ******** |
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: *********
Subject: Please forgive me ******* for posting this
Message:
| This is a post that appeared on Lifes (sick) Great this morning. I think the exes need to see it to understand what kind of deluded cult thinking is taking place there. Here is the post: Please send this to ********i: Dear *********, If what you say is true about Jagdeo (and I could believe you) It must be pretty awful and I sincerely understand your feelings. But you see: People go through many awful things in life... and somehow through their strenghts as human beings they overcome these bad things and have a joyful life. People have been raped, tortured, put on the most awful situations for long periods of their lives and they somehow overcome. Problem here ********* is that you are 'used' by the active ex-premies to promote their hatred and confusion. Are they helping you? I doubt it. They are just perpetuating your bad experience. Who suffers: you. They don't. I am moving away from the discussion of who is responsible for what happened to you, and who should be held accountable. As a person you have the power to overcome whatever happened and move away from being the victim. The ex-premies want you and need you to STAY AS A VICTIM. You do not have to oblige. You have a life to live. You are a beautiful human being and you have the power, the right and the strength in you to be and enjoy your life. Do not accept any longer to be their pet victim. Sincerely nino |
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT)
From: *********
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks Pat
Message:
| Pat, I guess I just have to say it very clearly: I am not being exploited or pathologised by EPO. Sweet of Nino to care I suppose. ******** |
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:27:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: *******
Subject: Thanks ********, Saw it quite a while ago but hesitated
Message:
| to repost it here as I felt it was a bit snide and subtly insulting. His crocodile tears might fool himself and other premies. |
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:47:10 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: all
Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist
Message:
| the warning at the end of this post to NOT post it on FV. A Post by Rachel Cunningham on Lifes (sick) Great: A guy called Richard said this (and a lot more, in a calm, clear, polite manner) to the FV's favorite victim, the woman who seeks not a cure for her ills but vengence. - Naturally he was lynched by the rabid dogs for saying.... 'Your attempt to demonize Maharaji has the collateral effect of funneling hate to all premies. Posts like *****’s have that effect by pushing emotion-charged buttons in people such as “child abuse”, that they lose perspective and react strictly out of emotion. Incidences of child abuse by an Elan Vital representative were so rare that to harp on it like you guys do completely skews the reality of Maharaji and the people who have served him over the years, some of whom are the most genuine people I’ve ever met. If you really don’t like hate then why don’t you do your part to diffuse it instead of formenting it.' --- Want to see an emotionally charged button? The following is emotional manipulation at a truly vulgar level and is what Richard and many others find so ugly about this 'child abuse' crusade. --- 'We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. I know that *************.' ( statement deleted again in case the writer would prefer that) Straight off a National Enquirer cover? Unfortunately not, but FV can be very similar. The exes keep crowing about this woman's 'courage'. It takes a lot more courage to say - THAT is not honesty, THAT is not truth, That is NOT someone seeking justice. It is emotional manipulation and it Stands Out A Mile. And they wonder why Maharaji doesn't arrive on her doorstep with chocolates and roses?
---(emphasis added by Susan and perhaps there are reasons we didn't imagine back then) This post is not intended to insult or enrage the woman in question. We all sympathise with her (them) and yes, the offender will be held accountable. There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes, to uncover not cover up. Patience will pay. ----- WARNING: This post is an attempt to clarify the nature of the ex.premie stance on the subject FOR PREMIES VISITING THIS SITE. If any ferreting ex wants to try and play the big hero by grabbing it and running back to ex.org shouting 'look at this!!' then you must WEAR THE CONSEQUENCES UPON YOUR OWN HEAD. There are unwell and unbalanced people on FV who should NOT be privy to information and opinion such as this. Enough said? I will respect this forum administrator's decision if he deems it necessary to remove this post due to the possible irresponsible behaviour of some people.
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:42 (GMT)
From: *******
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist
Message:
| Pat, I just SO don't experience anything which Rachel said as sympathy. Her lack of sympathy and her veiled hatred towards me comes across loud and clear. I am 'that woman' etc. I just wonder how Rachel can describe the use of inflamatory words like 'crap' and 'fucking' as polite? Because this is how Richard the Lion Heart addressed me. Charming it is not, ugly it is. I think the term is 'secondary abuse'. It looks like they want to persecute me for speaking out about Jagdeo. Maybe they want to break me so I'll shut up. They'll have to try harder. You see, apart from what happened to me, I have this little problem with pedophiles. Call me neurotic, call be deranged and unwell, but gosh I just can't stand child molesters. And the 'polite' Richard did not even have the courage to answer any of my posts. What a gentleman. Who ARE these people? ****** |
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Apr 01, 2024, 10:17:28
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Yes, add:
• Old news. Nothing to see here.
The relevant sentences in the thread you posted are cringeworthy. I started to write about how and why, but hopefully it's obvious to anyone not under the influence of this cult. I wrote words like avoidance, denial, suppression and tortured rationalizations - anything but accountability.
To them, insisting on accountability is hateful, but only when it comes to Prem Rawat and not when it comes to any other circumstance in their lives.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Apr 01, 2024, 10:52:40
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An old forum thread I have reposted at the end here the exchange with CPG is a good reminder of the events surrounding Jagdeo. Months after the other victim A asked her posts be removed, this poster CPG posted to say there was only ONE victim. Could this be someone involved wanting the success of getting that report off the site noted? Note, at the end, I agree, that it was a cult with a pedophile not a pedophile cult.
I no longer know what to think on that.
It wasn't the Children of God where it was part of the dogma, but it no longer looks like the one bad apple either, especially, given the excuse offered.
"No,it didn't and the reason why it didn't because in our
family, in our, in our whatever India was, it was very common. It was
not a, it was not a taboo thing"
Recall that Shana reached out to me in 2019 because she had read the following on EPO-
"Assistance:The women who were once the children of Divine Light Mission wish to thank everyone who has been so supportive of their telling the difficult truth about Mahatma Jagdeo. All these years later, to have the truth acknowledged, and to have people care, it is still very healing for those who were victimized both by this predator and by those who seek to cover up the fact that Jagdeo was reported, on at least two continents, in the 1970's and early eighties. Susan and 'A' especially wish to ask the help of anyone who may know more facts about this situation. They both know other victims of Jagdeo who do not wish to speak out and these wishes are respected. But anyone who knows anything about other incidents of abuse by Jagdeo or is aware of evidence to corroborate the fact that they reported this man in the 70's and 80's is encouraged to come forward. Of course, being ex premies, we know that the prospect of telling the truth about this is frightening. But as the years pass, if no one tells it, Jagdeo, and those that are willing to protect him in order to protect their "Master" stand a greater chance of never being held accountable for what happened to the children who were unfortunate enough to cross paths with Jagdeo. Please write epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk">epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk." https://www.ex-premie.org/pages/jagdeo.htm
"Webmaster's note:-
'A's story appeared here until May 2002. At that time, she requested that personal details of her story be removed from the site. Although she never confirmed it, the webmaster of this site believes this was a condition of a settlement she had reached with Elan Vital. It is also believed that another condition was the publication on Elan Vital's website of an invitation to other victims to come forward. This invitation (http://www.elanvital.org/policies.html) is so well hidden on their site, it is unlikely that any victim of Jagdeo would ever find it,"
https://www.ex-premie.org/pages/jagd_abuse.htm
Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult
From: CPG
To: Joe
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:06:25 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
If true, the allegations against Jagdeo are reprehensible and deserve to be looked into. However, with only ONE victim coming forward out of the hundreds of thousands in contact with Jagdeo over the years, this sounds very difficult. How does one contact other victims if they don't come forward/. And lets make it clear there were no allegations of complicity by Maharaji in this alleged crime as reported by the one alleged victim. |
Subject: More than one victim.
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:23:49 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
There have been more than one victim who has come forward. I've been in contact with four of them personally, and have heard very disturbing reports of other victims. I've also spoken to an ex-national co-ordinator who told me that Jagdeo's crimes were discussed by small groups of honchos at conferences in the late 80s. And as a result of this, Jagdeo was eventually restricted to touring Asian communities in the Far East. What is your interest in this CPG? Anth Ginn. |
Subject: Re: More than one victim.
From: CPG
To: AJW
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:50:16 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Yeah, I spoke with four guys the other day who have been to Mars. But they won't come forward. Come forward means to publicly make your accusation, without hiding or passing messages through a third party. Anything else just isn't credible. Drawing conclusions on anything less is medieval. In the US one has the right to face their accusser. Would you like to be branded as something despicable based on rumor from unnamed sources/ Because of this approach this issue won't pass the snicker test to any independent thinker. |
Subject: Bollocks
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:50:00 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
CPG, So what are you saying here CPG. Because their names are not published here it didn't happen? Or am I a liar? Or are they lying? Or maybe it did happen after all. Get you head out your arse CPG. The sun is shinning out here, in a world where paedophiles are condemned, not defended. Anth Ginn |
Subject: 'independent' thinker
From: Dermot
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:25:53 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
that's hilarious. I take it your thinking is completely 'independent' of your obesciance to Prem Pal, yeah? You're just this 'independent' totally 'un-biased' seeker of the facts .....nothing at all to do with an attempt to ensure your master is free from criticism. Of course not. Only people who criticise Prem Pal are warped aren't they? Not folks like you. Like if your daughter told you she'd been raped by someone ...how could you possibly believe her? ....after all she's just SPEAKING to you....she'd probablty think she'd been to MARS too ....silly girl. You'd need DNA evidence, a host of witnesses and film footage first wouldn't you? Especially in your good ole USA ....THE BASTION OF TRUTH , JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY.Well actually, only if your precious Prem Pal was remotely conected to the tragedy I suppose....I guess you'd give your daughter a break....sort of like, the benefit of the doubt......if anyone but Prem was at risk of falling off a pedestal. So, mr/mrs/ms 'Independent' thinker you've conceded there's been one victim and you know how devoted Jagdeo was to his M A S T E R ...YES? at least I know how devoted he was ....like a dog actually.....that's how devoted.... (I came across him a few times and even had an argument with him over some matter un-related to his raping escapade(s). So what does your fine 'independent' brain think Prem pal knew about Jagdeo? And how many years ago did he know it ......just this ONE victim that you agree on that is.....ahhhh I see this M A S T E R knew fuck all!!! Right.....all these people were informed including that other lapdog Charanand BUT the M A S T E R knew nothing.It's like a miracle aint it? Sort of defies all reason doesn't it? Kinda like your great US presidents. Nixon ....Reagan....ah how convenient......how/why should the top man know ANYTHING about NAYTHING untoward? Just like Prem never knew that Fakiranand was still on duty in Switzerland doing his Masters 'propagation', so soon after bludgeoning a mans head with a hammer. Now you have a problem here. Your MASTER was interviewed by the press on this occasion (yup there IS film footage of that ) and he's ON RECORD saying 'he'll deal with it!. Now between me and you...what do you reckon a good way of dealing with it would be? Turn the lunatic over to the American authorities OR send the lunatic to propagate in Switzerland, to mingle with Premies and non-Premies alike? Bear in mind that it's a FACT that Fakiranad was sent to Europe and his driver at the time (a very honest guy....whom I know personally) has the whole story and the leaflets advertising him ,dates etc. But it's PREM PAL we're talking of here so I guess you'll get round those unfortunate FACTS somehow. Independent thinker my ass. Fuck off with your bullshit. |
Subject: Re: 'independent' thinker
From: CPG
To: Dermot
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 09:28:06 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Excuse me please for disturbing you, for letting a stream of light and truth enter your dark and dank little burrow. I know you were all comfy in there wallowing in your own shit, so I'll just let you get back to your anger and misery, you sarcastic, sad little wretch. Maybe someone else will will pick up the thread with the guy with the hammer, 30 years ago for gods sake. Get a life, then try enjoying it, its nice. |
Subject: Go rot
From: Dermot
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:25:54 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
away with your amoral, greedy, greaseball, master ...sycophant. My life BEGAN when I saw Rawat clearly....I pity you......almost. |
Subject: I was a litle over the top
From: Dermot
To: Dermot
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:45:46 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
with that 'go rot' post ....nevertheless you still annoy me with your supposed 'critical independence' when it's plain as night is day you're desperate to do a whitewash job. Easier to insult and leave than talk about Fakirand and Rawats role in that tragic crime AND his role in Jagdeos crimes too....it all mounts up and points to someone who puts his IMAGE before what is truly RIGHT. |
Subject: Oh but there is evidence of complicity...
From: Cynthia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:42:48 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
ONLY ONE VICTIM? How dare you say that! How many must there be? A. was seven, yes 7 years old when Jagdeo raped her and he didn't use his finger if you catch my drift. And even if he ''only'' used his finger, it is still an unimaginable heinous crime against an innocent child. Do YOU have any children? Know any? Just notice a seven year old girl next time you're around children and imagine a grown man raping a seven year old little girl. There is nothing worse that could happen in anyone's life, girl or boy. Where is your sense of decency? Where is your conscience? Educate yourself! There are people who have information that Maharji did indeed have knowledge of these rapes and other sexual abusive acts upon children of his premies. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. He knew it all and you just don't want to believe it because you're so in love with him. Well, I'm bursting your bubble, CPG. He knew everything and CHOSE not to do anything about it. He is and was too engrossed in himself to care. And guess what? He doesn't give a shit about YOU either! Wait until you realize that one. And you lurk here with no name, no evidence to the contrary, and say ONLY ONE VICTIM. Well, whoever you are, one victim is one too many. What's wrong with your mind? Have you been brainwashed? Do you believe Maharaji is above the law. He knew...he knew and he knew...and did NOTHING! Children were raped! Are you out of your mind? Children were raped! If you have evidence he didn't then prove it. Or contact him to have HIM prove it. You won't get an answer because he's a complete coward with no sense of morality or conscience. I plan on writing him a letter very soon about this matter because I've just about had it with you cult apologists who care more about a fat-ass guru than little kids who were abused at the hands and genitals of that maniac, Jagdeo, Maharaji's agent, employee and close associate. Tell me, why was Jagdeo guarded after these allegations came out during the time they happened? You have some nerve minimizing the rape of a 7 year old little girl for the sake of a no-good, creep of a cowardly man (if you want to stretch the definition of 'man') who you worship, namely, Guru Maharaj Ji, a/ka/ Prem Pal Singh Rawat, Malibu, California, among many other palaces (which we paid and slaved for). Fuck you very much. Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA -- who are you? |
Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity...
From: CPG
To: Cynthia
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:13:42 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO. I am concerned about this issue too; i looked into it quite a bit a few months ago and after reading all of the material could not find the name of more than ONE alleged victim. So lets be clear about this and not blow angry smoke to try and cover it up OK/ It doesn't fool anybody. |
Subject: Like I said CPG
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:28:14 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Like I said CPG, I have spoken personally, face to face, to four victims of Jagdeo. I have no intention of publishing their names here. But as you seem to have an active interest in the matter, maybe you could ask your premie pals about a meeting that supposedly took place in Miami, around the late 80s, early 90s, to discuss what to do after Jagdeo had sexually assaulted the child of an Indian instructor. Somebody told me Maria Isabella was at the meeting. I'd like to know more about this. Anth Ginn |
Subject: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: Reprise from John MacGregor
To: AJW
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:17:53 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. |
Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: AJW
To: Reprise from John MacGregor
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:06:47 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Thanks for that informative post John. Everything you say corresponds to what other, unrelated accounts have told us about jagdeo and the big cult cover-up. Glen knew about what was going on at least four years ago, because I wrote and told him. They were personal letters, so I never published his replies. Then in November 98 I published my 'journey' on EPO, and he contacted me about he allegations officially. The letters are on EPO somewhere. Take care Anth the jigsaw |
Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: CPG
To: Reprise from John MacGregor
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
One guys completely unsubstantiated opinion. One guy I don't know from the guy who keeps emailing me get rich quick schemes. A guy who apparently had no personal knowledge of the crimes or M's knowledge of them. He talks about others having had to know. Internet story telling. Just the facts maam. Only there dont seem to be any. Only fifth hand stories and opinions from people who obviously despise Maharaji. What a joke. |
Subject: you are seeing only what you want to see
From: Susan
To: CPG
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:56:38 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Listen, it is HELL to come forward and tell the truth about this and get called a liar about one of the most painful things that ever happened to you. Both A. ( who has not said it didn't happened, just asked to have it off the web ) and myself know of other victims. The one I know has no intention of ever coming forward. We have discussed it. But what Jagdeo did to her was truly horrible. As I have said before his line was 'your clothes are your MIND, take off your clothes' do you think a 12 year old faithful, very believing young premie girl can deal with that without extreme pain forever? We who know of other victims owe more to those who do not want to come forward. Why would they , to be attacked? I know of at least 4 girls in seventies Miami who were molested or attempted to be molested by Jagdeo. I did report it, twice, but of course as we all know, no one I reported it to recalls. This is the truth. I am sick of it. I have done enough. I have said before I have no intention of suing anyone as I got away from that MONSTER before he could do much. But he did A LOT worse to his younger victims. IF you think they aren't out there you have huge blinders on. I also know EV knows of some of the other victims, maybe there are confidentiality agreements or maybe their parents are premies still or maybe people who it was reported to don't see fit to come on this board and report it. But that is the truth. Jagdeo was a MONSTER. Also, why would EV be suing him in India and saying he is a pedophile and then denying the truth of what A. and I say in the same press release. ( Like yes he is a molester but those two are wrong?) Anyone who reads that should get a grip. My biggest regret is I reproted Jagdeo to initiators instead of the police. But of course I would never have done that then, I trusted Guru Maharaj Ji and knew he would stop him. I was a 15 year old who believed at the time with all my heart. |
Subject: Hi Susan.
From: AJW
To: Susan
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:34:01 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Hi Susan, It's disgusting the way these creeps from the cult are constantly protecting Rawat's paedophile pal, and trying to discredit his victims. What a sorry mess of misguided, mindless, morons they are. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the nusiance. |
Subject: Re: you are seeing only what you want to see
From: cpg
To: Susan
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:51:52 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
I never called Susan or A a liar; personally I believe Susan and have to agree there were PROBABLY more victims. What I am responding to is the way others in this thread and elsewhere on here take there anger against M and convert it to 'facts' in this case. The fact is- there is only one victim willing to come forward. This makes it no less a horrible crime for this and any other victims, but to extrapolate from this a whole culture of pedophilia is pure fantasy. I have yet to read any evidence of complicity either. |
Subject: To CPG on Jagdeo, Maharaji and moral corruption
From: Livia
To: cpg
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:14:43 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Look CPG, I was a premie when I first heard about Jagdeo's paeodophilia. I read that he had abused several premie children, and knew for a fact that nothing official had ever been said about it, as I would have heard, being on the mailing list and having received every official communication for decades. My immediate feeling was an 'oh no' as simple common sense told me that if the information is out there on the internet, Maharaji must also know about it. So my first feeling was, if Maharaji knew about it before me (it had been on the internet for at least a couple of years before I read it) why had nothing been announced about it? Surely, if Maharaji was a genuine teacher with good ethical standards, the first thing he would do would be to send a letter to all the premies saying that these terrible facts had come to light. He would then announce that Jagdeo had been reported to the police, stripped of his instructor status and dealt with appropriately. He would also request all victims to come forward so they could be apologised to and compensated in some way. It doesn't matter how you look at it, CPG, anything less than that is totally unacceptable. Maharaji, as Jagdo's master, is absolutely not in a position where he can abnegate responsibility for Jagdeo's actions. That does not make him guilty of paedophilia himself - obviously not. But as Jagdeo's master the onus is most certainly on him to deal with the situation. If all this hadn't come to light, I would probably still be a practising premie. It was after finding out about Jagdeo and realising that Maharaji hadn't acted appropriately, that I began to doubt him. I never had a moment's doubt before that. And any premie who hears about Jagdeo and Maharaji's lack of appropriate action needs to look seriously at their own conscience, or lack of it. If they feel Maharaji has done nothing to cause them to doubt him, then they have lost their own essential moral and ethical sense. Their belief in him has superceded it, leaving them in a moral quagmire where anything goes - if Maharaji does it. I came to my senses at that point and for the first time began to see Maharaji as he really must be - a deeply flawed person whose own moral sense is seriously lacking. His desire to maintain his apparent credibility and 'keep up appearances' has overtaken any compulsion to 'do the right thing'. And what kind of person does that then make him? Not, absolutely not what we all thought he was, period. And you, CPG, just can't see it, because you have been too corrupted. And quite frankly I find that scary. Livia |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: CPG
To: Livia
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:18:00 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Tunnel vision ...take off the blinders, baby. You are so immeshed in your own view you can't see the illogic of it. You totally agree with 'Us' or you are a scary demented person. Maharaji is a god in a bod, the perfect being; anything less and he is scum. The world ain't black and white, there are many shades of grey, and these absolute and extreme conclusions based on inuendo and rumor are infantile. |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: The Falcon
To: CPG
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 09:54:25 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
please stop! the facts, that's facts, are this (and well documented) Jagdeo raped and indecently assaulted young girls throughout his tenure as the representative of Maharaji in the West (and wherever else. Maharaji was told, did nothing and said nothing to avoid compensation claims (in my opinion). How you can come here against the agya of your guru and attempt to deny, revise and question this is appalling! It takes a lot to rile me but you have succeeded. Little comfort to your conscience, however. Get a life (of your own) and have some consideration and compassion for the victims of this monster mahatma of your guru. Where is your fucking heart, premie with emotions in suspension!!!??? |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: Livia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:24:09 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Look, CPG, your total inability or downright refusal even to contemplate that there may have been a cover-up speaks volumes. Rational, discriminating, thinking and aware people generally sense when it's the right time to smell a rat. Irrational, non-discriminating, unclear and unaware people tend to miss the truth of a situation. This is because for one reason or another they have lost the reason, discrimination, clarity and awareness they were presumably born with. Membership of a cult has a tendency to remove one's reason, discrimination, clarity of thought and awareness. One may join a cult in all good faith, unable to see the fact that one is joining a cult. One may even join a cult without knowing it's a cult, in the sincere hope of increasing one's awareness. Sadly however, years of cult membership tend have the opposite effect, replacing awareness with a sort of fundamentalism. This fundamentalism can even pose as 'increased awareness' but it's fundamentalism alright. It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it. One of the attributes of fundamentalism is the inability to see the possibility of any fault in one's chosen leader. In this way, Moonies have total faith in Sun Myung Moon, the Rajneeshis had total faith in Bhagwan and Sai Baba devotees have total faith in Sai Baba. Moon has links with far-right organisations, Bhagwan oversaw a murder and used his devotees for his own sexual pleasures and Sai Baba has sexually abused young boys and men for decades. Thousands upon thousands of devotees of all three of the above had total faith in their masters, even after finding out what had been going on. Some of these devotees are seeing the light and realising that their masters were charlatans. Others can't see it and cling to the belief that their master is/was perfect. I have a Sai Baba devotee friend who just cannot believe the abuse allegations around her master; her fundamentalist need to believe is too strong. I also know premies who have heard all the allegations about Maharaji and just cannot believe them; their fundamentalist need to believe in him is too strong. What would you say to my Sai Baba devotee friend? I'm serious - read the Sai Baba ex site, and then please get back to me. Do you think the allegations could be true? If you were a Sai Baba devotee do you think that you, like her, might have difficulty believing the allegations and may try to look for rationalisations and explanations, as she does? If you go to Google and type in 'ex sai baba', a site will come up 'for concerned ex followers of Sai Baba'. I'd be genuinely interested to know what you think. Livia |
Subject: ex premie logic primer-
From: CPG
To: Livia
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:46:26 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
EX PREMIE LOGIC PRIMER - everyone must agree completely with the ex party line as enunciated on EPO and this forum - anyone who doesn't agree or questions any aspect of the party line has been brainwashed by The Cult- not the ex-cult, the non-ex-cult. This is a very safe belief system for the persons emplying it; I have seen it employed by many. Eg, I have seen alcoholics use this system- if you drink you are an alcoholic; if you don't agree with me you are in denial. Either way you are in their view an alcoholic, there is no question that their belief system is intact and correct, the only question is whether the person in question is too messed up to see your truth. Talk about a cult. This is a very dangerous belief system and is by definition FASCIST. -look it up if you don't agree with me. Livia, I appreciate your concern but in fact I have looked through all of this stuff extensively because I want to know about my teacher. I have stated my conclusions here; no one was interested because while I accept some of the things said here I don't all. With my belief system and experience of K I can accept M as my teacher even with minor faults. I have seen no evidence or even decent circumstantial evidence of anything more than this. I object to people on this forum mistating others experiences or observations, quoting completely unsubstantiated rumors as fact, and , as in this case, expanding one alleged incident into a culture of pedophilia and a cover up. The cover up is only wishful thinking on the part of those who wish M harm. There is absolutely no evidence of this. ' He had to know' doesn't count. Susan telling someone to tell him 25 years ago doesn't cut it for me. There are far more benign explainations than otherwise, all just as viable. If the purpose of this forum is to enlighten others, meaning with the truth, everyone will be better served by sticking to the facts and claiming your opinions or hopes as just that, not as reality. |
Subject: Re: ex premie logic primer-
From: Livia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:45:40 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
look CPG, you're still clinging to your abject refusal to entertain the idea that a, there has been a cover-up, and b, you are in a cult. Calling doubters a cult is sublimely ridiculous. Would you call former communists or former born-again Christians who no longer subscribe to their earlier belief a cult? I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's Witness and is now dealing with very similar issues to ex-premies. All these people are EX CULT MEMBERS, geddit?!! Being an ex cult member and communicating with other ex cult members doesn't make you a member of a cult!!! It's a temporary phase of deconstructiing with the help of others who are going through the same thing, before freeing oneself and moving on. And cults have leaders, by the way. And another thing, you completely ignored my suggestion that you look at the ex Sai Baba site and come back to comment. This would take you five minutes of your time. I asked you to look at the site and comment, as an outside observer, on the allegations of these Sai Baba devotees, who seem disillusioned in the extreme. Well? Livia |
Subject: Flawed Logic and Convoluted Thoughts...
From: Cynthia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:49:09 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
CPG Your post above makes no sense. Especially your attempt at using alcoholism as an analogy. Alcoholism is a disease. You also speak in absolutes. For instance, ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' with the party line. How would you know about ''everybody?'' Impossible. If ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' there again you are claiming some special or magical way of having information about all ex-premies (who post here, anyway). I think you're projecting because it's my experience here that many of us disagree with eachother on various issues. I wonder about the evolution by premies flinging back their (your) cultist thought proceses by calling us a cult. It's an interesting 'back in your face' turn of events and is absurd. You can't think clearly or see Maharaji objectively because you've given up your freedom of thought to Rawat. You can't see that you've done this because you already gave it up...you're programmed, locked in, brainwashed, call it what you want, but you're in over your head. Look, when it comes around to child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, I won't stop talking until all child abuse ends. Someone over at LG criticized my first post to you about victim A. Being a survivor of horrific child abuse, I can tell you this: if you've never been sexually abused as a child, it's almost impossible to know what the experience is throughout one's life. It is a wounding of a child that is life damaging. The only way out of it is to strive to heal, whichever way works, but usually it takes years and years of therapy. Furthermore, having worked very closely with Maharaji for an extended period of time, a year, I know that not much happens around him that he doesn't know about or have control over. He's a control freak. He micro-manages. And he has lousy personality. He may be great on stage to you, but behind the scenes, he quite a piece of nasty work. Don't tell me about child abuse until you've walked a day in my shoes. If you continue to be abusive to Livia or anyone else here I'm going to ask that you be blocked. Maybe you need to stop meditating for a few months, not listen to Rawat's videos, get out of touch and see how much better you feel. Then come back and argue that we are the cult. I won't even bother to address your comment that ex-premies are fascists because by saying that you reveal you don't know what fascism is. Look it up. |
Subject: Smell the coffee cpg.
From: AJW
To: cpg
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:38:48 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
cpg, I've spoken to four victims. Ihere is a report of a mahatmas child being abused by him. There are reports that he had special sessions with young children, in darkened rooms at Unity School in Denver and Wringford in England. An ex-national co-ordinator told me his tours were retricted because of reports of his paedophilia. Wherever Jagdeo went, it seems there was a culture of child abuse. It was reported to Gurucharanand, Randy Proudy, and Judy Osbourne. There were all full time officials in the cult at the time. Nothing was done about it because Jagdeo is a big pal of Rawat, the ver imperfect master. Grow up cpg. Anth Ginn. |
Subject: Who do you see....
From: PatD
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:05:04 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
...when you stand & clap the speaker? Then sit & listen to his words of wisdom that you can't remember 5 mins. afterwards. 'Wow,that was great'....'Yeahh right,just the same,it's amazing,he's saying the same thing he's always said'...'Did you hear him say so & so'....'No,missed that one,must've nodded off at that point'....'I know a great Chinese restaurant just round the corner'....'it's amazing to see all these people I haven't seen for ages'.....'who is this guy'...dunno.....'stopped thinking about that'....'do you still meditate'....'I know what you mean,got to get it together'...'I remember when blah blah'....'do you reckon he'll dance again'....'who're those fuckers in the front row seats... 'he's trying to change all that'....'he's the man though isn't he'....'yeah fantastic,let's get a drink'...'nice to see you again'... 21st century satsang,nice & easy. That's not at all the vibe that the greater than god built his wealth on & you know it. The children who were abused by Jagdeo were given into his care by parents who believed that a realised soul,appointed such by the Lord of the Universe,were on the road to bliss & god consciousness under his(mahatma...great soul) guidance. So that turned out to be the wrong way to look at things did it? ...'yeah,the closer you get to the sun the more you get burned'...'those that were 1st shall be last'...'she's got a really good job now & can get to all the events'...'I don't know what to make of him ,but it's nice to see you again'... FUCK YOU cpg, & all your friends. |
Subject: Of course people are angry at Rawat
From: gerry
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:09:50 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Complicity lies in the disputed fact that Rawat was told early on about Jagdeo's uh, predilictions, and Prem chose to look the other way while continuing to send Jagdeo out on 'missions.' You know what, pal? It would not take much, just some time and dedication, to track down Jagdeo's victims. Rawat has the resources to do so and he certainly could be doing a whole lot more to reach out to victims. But I know that's expecting way too much of him as a man. Think about this: if Rawat DIDN'T know about Jagdeo, then he would be doing something about it, if he were an honorable and accountable adult. The facts are looking like he was told by at least two different sources. Probably more and I'd guess they had a lot of discussion about it. But if Rawat did know about Jagdeo and did nothing but shift Jagdeo around, than that's even worse. Either way, Rawat is fucked on this deal and it's his own fault that he's in this predicament. |
Subject: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia
From: Susan
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:30:11 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
I have not seen anyone say that. In fact, the Hare Khrishna's HAD a culture of pedophilia, where children were sent to GuruKula's ( boarding schools) and tortured. It was my belief when I was a premie that Maharaj Ji cared about children, thus I reported it to him. But without the people I reported it to to back me up, I can't prove anything. There are a few people I told who remember my telling THEM that I had told the two initiators. But the initiators themselves do not remember, or claim not to remember, my telling them. This would not make Rawat 'complicit' until he did not remove Jagdeo from duties, I cannot even imagine Rawat reporting Jagdeo to the police as should have been done. It simply was not 'our' culture at the time. We believed Rawat was the Lord of the Universe, who would be a higher authority to report it to than him. Thus that is who I attempted to report it to, and I still believe got the message. Because of the response of him being glad it was not a new report. I believe Rawat did do something about Rawat, but perhaps he ( like most of people in the seventies and eighties ) thought he could discipline Jagdeo out of it. But that is pure speculation. It is so like the Catholic Church. I am angry too at the Cardinals who protected themselves and their reputations rather than protecting kids. That is complicit, and that is the way he is I believe complicit, how he responded, once he knew. I am not saying he approved. I am saying I think he knew, did something too little, and thought he had taken care of the problem. The culture of the time is complicit too, as we all believed with Rawat's full endorsement he was Lord of the Univierse. He didn't tell us the words to arti were not literal, he did tell us Guru is greater than God, no matter what all the revisionists say , lots of us, myself included, really believed in him, and that he cared, and that he was the Perfect master, or the Messiah of our time. And we all know his satsangs encouraged this. At the time, any quote of his was He said, not he said..... His being LOTU has a lot to do with it being brushed under the carpet for so long. I am sure he did not approve of Jagdeo being a pedophile. I just think he was too cowardly, ignorant or into protecting his own reputation to do anything about it. By the way, thank you for believing me. Every word is the truth. |
Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia
From: CPG
To: Susan
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:42:59 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Now that is a clear, rational message. Others have extrapolated far more from your report. 'Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult' implies to me a widespread problem or cultural acceptance of it, and others have posted those sentiments here as well, stating rumor as fact. As the only victim to come forward, if I were you I would correct them to maintain the integrity of your story. There are many possible scenarios fo M being told or not. Some make him a scumbag, some make him innocent, and most lie in between. Would you imprison a cardinal and dismantle the Catholic Church if he had heard 3rd hand of one incident 25 yrs ago, unverified, had not heard directly from the victim, and didn't follow up as conventional wisdom about pedophiles would dictate in todays world/ Me, I would say in a perfect world he should have handled it differently, but in light of medical thought of pedophilia at the time I wouldn't condemn him for it. On the other hand, these cardinals who knew priests were raping kids, because they came forward directly and severally, then sent the priest out to be near kids again, I would throw them in prison. The point is there is no evidence or even suggestion that anything remotely like this was the case with maharaji, yet many on this forum state that just that is the fact. Those who state this demolish their own credibility and integrity by doing so. |
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Date: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 13:04:43 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gmom
Subject: Thanks Gmom
Message:
| | Thanks, Susan, that's nice of you to say. Obviously, I don't know if 'nothing' was done to protect kids from Jagdeo. I mean something might have been done that I didn't know about. But clearly, if anything was done it wasn't MUCH and clearly, like everything else scandalous in Maharaji's world, it was hushed up, ignored, and shoved under the carpet. The same was true when Parlokanand was found molesting little boys and some of the other mahatmas were taking advantage of female premies. Not to mention Fakiranad and his hammer. |
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Apr 01, 2024, 06:11:28
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Thanks for that erudite and thought-provoking analysis Nik. Lots of interesting points. Just commenting on a few ..
Yes curiously we went for a cult led by someone younger than most of us. In my case as a a very immature 16 year old by only a couple of years. Like many perhaps I saw the similarity in age as perhaps more of a reason to trust and identify with him - an imprimatur of purity and innocence -- as in this kid can't possibly have made it all up (because I knew that I couldn't have done so myself) -- and of course having no conception at all of the forces that had moulded him - the naivety of youth to think that we are all the same..
As he became an adult it appears that he lacked anyone to stand up to him and tell him what is what (though some tried in 1976 I believe - a watershed moment perhaps). But aside from the corrupting start to then continue on in life surrounded only by sycophants can't have helped. Does he still even partly believe that he really is special in some way? Who knows? You can see how it might work psychologically - constant unquestioning applause for every mundane utterance, crap poetry or music -- providing ongoing validation - alcohol burying the doubts -- and so the shit show labours on over the years.
You just kind of hope that it all crashes, burns and resolves at some point -- at which point everyone would benefit - even Rawat himself. Anyway there would certainly be a great deal more of real 'self-knowledge' for everyone in the end -- which ironically would be no bad thing
Tim
Modified by tommo at Wed, Apr 03, 2024, 10:46:07
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Hi Nik. Thank you for these posts. Good to see/read you once again.
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Wow Nik ! What a comeback! It's great to see you again and armed to the teeth! Yes I think this info and approach is very important. Will be in touch. I need a bit more time to absorb this!
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Thank you Nik for your excellent post !
as regards Part 1 I have the following additions to bring to our attention:
1. I have heard from high officials of the cult and Rawat himself that they changed the church status because of tax / financial reasons.
2. not being called a religion, in the "corporate" and "humanitarian" phase of Prem Rawat's cult, made the cult less honest since Prem asked his followers to lie about the religious core of the movement in order to fool the media and the public (to better do "propagation"  , and the organizations could be called fraudulent since they present another "public image" , a fake image, consciously asking the initiated followers (premies) to lie about the actual religious belief system promoted by Rawat and the organization and leader's past.
Thank you for quoting the concern about the safety of children around Prem Rawat, because Rawat is a religious cult leader who has set up a cover-up organization around him based on his followers "devotion" to him.
Do they cover up their Master even when he is sexually molesting his own children?
It seems they have already done so and they are keep on doing so.
Would they cover up their "Master" sexually molesting his grandchildren?
Based on the cult's track record they would...
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