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I have heard the "Knowledge works" argument by people who KNOW that Prem Rawat is more than a conman, a criminal personality with no empathy nor remorse, and justify their involvement with his cult by the "fact" that "knowledge" works.
Knowledge is a religious belief system where a subjective feeling is given the status of "the divine", and the "people who have knowledge" believe that this feeling they have makes them "having" a "knowledge" of "the divine" vs the other people who dont close their eyes, turn their tongues around, close their ears and sit still for an hour per day, are "ignorant" and don't have "knowledge".
This arrogance the premies have derives from their belief in a straight LIE: that doing some physical yoga techniques brings "knowledge" .
Unless you want to re-define knowledge and say it's not about knowing something but believing you know- no it does not bring "knowledge" it just brings various feelings, as many physical techniques do, some of which are self-induced trance, and the same feeling of "knowing the divine", of self-induced trance is felt when premies do other stuff, irrelevant to the "techniques", like "listening" to the "message" (ie prem rawat talking in a hypnotic way about how nice it is to be cut off from the world, not give a sh** about the rest of the world but only focus on "the feeling" inside) etc.
Hans Rawat has expressed in his post on facebook under Don's post and discussion that followed in a very moderate and very accurate way, the "knowledge works" trip:
"When I read the descriptions of the four yogas online I realized instantly what my father had never told me. These were the components that create the experience of “knowledge”. It has nothing to do with my father’s claims of being a master of “perfection” as he puts it. In fact whenever someone comes along who has a greater grasp of language and speaks more convincingly about the spiritual con that is Knowledge, my father quickly puts them in their place. The last thing he wants is for someone else to run away with his golden goose.
Behind the scenes, he acts more like a mob boss than someone with spiritual mastery.
Gurus are ubiquitous in India. An expert recently estimated that there are over ten thousand cults in the United States alone. People think this experience is special and devote their life to this man. Why? So many premies have told me, “your father saved me” I often wonder. Saved from what? Boredom? No.
It turns out that many suffered from acute emotional trauma before receiving knowledge. The loss of loved ones in a tragic way. Abuse in their childhood, rejection by loved ones and so on.
People quote my father and say, “knowledge works”. My response to that is, yes it does, so does Fentanyl! Does that mean everyone in pain should use it? Not necessarily, opioids regularly ruin people’s lives. However, Im sure some people swear by it.
So what about worshipping a false idol, does that ruin lives? I believe in some cases it has. I also believe it can ruin more than just your life on earth. That is of course a belief but a belief that has been around since the time of the old testament.
The way I see it, the experience of knowledge is a rehashing of one of the world’s oldest religions. The methods tap deep into the human psyche and can create a powerful experience when fully adopted and implemented by the practitioner.”
Modified by maria77 at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 05:12:47
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Just to add that yes, this is an ancient religion, and it does not derive from the western civilization, and I know western civilization has many faults, but we have to acknowledge the fact that it is based on:1. Logic/Reason where Knowledge is a process of knowing via the cognitive functions of the person (and a subjective feeling is not called knowledge but feeling.)
2. and Christian worldview ethics, where ALL human beings are existentially equal, and NO living person can be God, and where worshiping another mortal human being as God or any other idol is considered worship of Fake god and a delusion, since anything created (nature, humans) are NOT God, exactly because they are created.
This is why in the western worldview, science is the way to know nature, not trying to "feel" nature in order to discover its metaphysical/magic qualities.
The "feeling" premies and their master refer to as being "the divine" is also a created feeling, part of creation, and the fact that it is called "the divine" is not justified by any logic.
It's a BELIEF.
But premies (and others who believe in similar religious worldviews) do not value Logic. SO they call "knowledge" a subjective feeling they have and believe its "knowledge of the divine"
But how could they value logic when they are told again and again to "shut down" their minds and open their "hearts"...?
Of course without Logic we woudnt be able to have any logical discussion... and with premies we don't.
As a premie for 30+ years (almost my whole life): I used to be like that.
I was replying to all the reasonable questions about my premie belief system as if Reason was the enemy : it can't be put into words I would say.
It's not about logical arguments, I would say, it's about FEELING....
Feelings hmmmmm I still wonder about premies if they are aware of what they are feeling:
COGNITIVE DISSONANCE this is what they are mainly feeling.
The cognitive dissonance of living as a Logical human being half of their lives, and their other half, their MOST IMPORTANT half, their part that they think it is the REAL self, they live as a brainless creature aiming to be one with ZERO, in this life and in the after life - I mean this is their existential goal... to become one with ZERO: for their personalities to dissolve into nothingness...
If someone's goal in life is to become one with ZERO then why would they care if their master is a pedophile ?
it's all an illusion anyways: Maya....
I do not want to undermine religions believing the world is an illusion but it's the most logical thing to say:
believing that the world is an illusion does create cognitive dissonance and a VERY serious one.
the whole world is an illusion???? seriously?
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"to become one with ZERO: for their personalities to dissolve into nothingness"
As a premie and a good student, that's exactly what Prem Rawat taught. He took it further and said realize it... make Knowledge real in your life. By extension, ZERO = Guru Maharaji = Prem Rawat. To complete the beief system: to dissolve into or become one with (hold your nose) Prem Rawat.
Ego was defined as any identity I adopted, e.g., Elmer J. Fudd who owns a mansion and a yacht, that was separate from Guru Maharaji. Duality... where there is duality, there is no Knowledge. Perfect concentration on a perfect thing where there is no separation between you and that perfect thing.
"The sword that kills our problem life," where the problem with my life was separation from Guru Maharaji. A life plagued by ego and duality. A life I strived to jettison in favor of something else... nothingness. Self-immolation of the human spirit including my intelligence, creativity and freedom to pursue anything worldly.
(Did anyone here ever mention stunted growth?)
It makes me cringe to reflect on how far gone I was in those days. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"If someone's goal in life is to become one with ZERO then why would they care if their master is a pedophile ?... it's all an illusion anyways"
If the whole world is an illusion, then all human constructs are as well, including right, wrong and common values... all irrelevant because they're just part of the illusion. In other words, anything goes and anything can be rationalized any way one wants and who's to say otherwise, especially in furtherance and defense of the master.
But it's even more twisted. Premies would bristle at being thought of as so stupid as to believe everything is an illusion. So to them, it only serves as a rationalization for their ends justify the means efforts to do whatever Prem Rawat asks demands of them. It adds elements of deception, duplictity and ethical depravity.
By all objective accounts, this is nothing more than a moral-less, ethically bankrupt, money grabbing cult enterprise run by the same. I could go even darker but it's too nice of a day.
Thank you, Maria. I know I didn't add anything you didn't already know, but I wanted to support your much appreciated posts.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 08:07:27
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I have some peach trees on a bit of land in France. Each spring, the new leaves become distorted, curl up and fall off. A disease called peach leaf curl. The locals hang bags of egg shells in the branches when they see peach leaf curl.
I asked how it works. Generally I get the answer, we don't know, it just works.
Peach leaf curl is caused by a microbe that comes in the winter rain and affects the buds in spring. If you leave the trees, do nothing, the trees put out new leaves in June which aren't affected by peach leaf curl.
This happens if you hang a bag of eggshells in the tree. But also if you do nothing. But it seems the majority panic when they see all the leaves fall off and think they'd better do as their neighbours and hang the eggshells. New leaves grow. It appears to work.
If you sit quietly and breath gently and deeply and try to quieten your thoughts, you will feel more calm and peaceful.
This happens whether you think you have a special knowledge given by a special man or not. It happens anyway.
Mr Rawat's 'knowledge' is as useless as a bag of eggshells in a tree.
'knowledge works'. So does nothing.
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exactly! Thank you for posting on this subject ! this is a great example !
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Thanks.
So to stretch the analogy a little further, it turns out that mature peach trees are hardly affected by peach leaf curl. They become resistant. They grow out of their susceptibility.
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As Maria said, great example! I was gonna suggest selling something better than egg shells that you could get for free. I even sketched a bussiness plan. Then I tossed it because it looked exactly like TPRF and I didn't want to offend you.
Placebo effect: a beneficial effect produced by a placebo drug or treatment, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to the patient's belief in that treatment.
The mind is a powerful thing and a terrible thing to waste.
In hindsight, my experience of Knowledge seemed to be closely tied to my fervor and need. I think they called it thirst in the cult. Aspirants had to attend months of satsang before receiving Knowledge for the purpose of building thirst and, well, emptying their minds of concepts. That was it's only purpose. Seventy hours of the Keys.
A person didn't even have to receive Knowledge to get screwed-up.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 08:38:45
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Yes, I remember a time when cultivating a thirst was the thing.
Rawat went on and on about it. Of course, without a thirst, there was no quenching going to happen. But why cultivate a thirst?
I used to wonder about a school friend I'd told about 'knowledge', and he came to satsang a couple of times and that was it. No thirst in him.
A lack of thirst didn't seem to bother him. He seemed fine.
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Yes. That's exactly the thing 13. I took a few people to see Rawat over the years - people I liked and respected - resulting -inexplicably to me at the time - in no further interest at all.
Premie explanation - they just didn't have that thirst? But there is a huge problem with that. To believe that you implicitly had to believe that 'we' premies were inherently 'better' in some way than most everyone else in so much as we had 'that thirst' and accordingly could recognise the perfect master whereas nearly everyone else couldn't. Therefore we premies were in some sense an elite - the chosen few - in fact I even recall some bullshit 'satsang' in the early days that we were the reincarnated souls of those that that heard the sermon on the mount or whatever.
The truth is that part of being a premie - and premie identity - was just one big spiritual ego trip. Premies fed Rawat's weird egotistical need --but the converse - validation of premies as an elite cognoscenti was also an implicit part of the trip. It's the dark side of being a premie. Of course the joke is actually on premies - being a premie certainly marks you out in wider society as something -- but spiritual elite it certainly ain't!
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Spot on Tommo, as I think any notion of being and doing what may be obscure enhances our self esteem. And certainly inside 'Knowledge' of the ultimate in the universe is an alluring and big slap on the back! (Being with the living perfect master of the time...what?) What could be more ego gratifying ?This is certainly a universal cult aspect. ( i may be dumb and unattractive but have the ultimate ... I think, er, I have that feeling..) my yoga days are over... (breathing is GOOD) I have my measure of tequila in the eve... then stretch a bit, and my (not so) exclusive swim in the Salish sea keeps my ego afloat for now.
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Now I had to look up Salish sea - although I see that I have gazed upon it in the past from Vancouver and from Victoria on Vancouver island. Pretty cold water for a dip I'm guessing ?
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Ha, I had to look it up as well, then remembered I'd seen it, hitching down from Seattle to LA on one of those tours.
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The water this morning is about 8 centigrade,and varies a few degrees year round... 10 or 15 minutes is about my limit, and 30 minutes for a (brave?) few who experience beginning hypothermia. It's a beautiful time in the mornings.
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How Breath-Control Can Change Your Life: A Systematic Review on Psycho-Physiological Correlates of Slow Breathing https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137615/ Breath-based meditation: A mechanism to restore the physiological and cognitive reserves for optimal human performance https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4832119/ Yoga breathing, meditation, and longevity https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19735239/ Relaxation techniques: Breath control helps quell errant stress response https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/relaxation-techniques-breath-control-helps-quell-errant-stress-response Effect of Meditation and Breathing Exercises on the Well-being of Patients with SARS-CoV-2 Infection under Institutional Isolation: A Randomized Control Trial https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8655642/ Box Breathing: Mental Health Benefits and Tips for Beginners https://psychcentral.com/health/box-breathing#benefits Impact of a Yogic Breathing Technique on the Well-Being of Healthcare Professionals https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7876755/ Breath meditation: A great way to relieve stress https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/breath-meditation-a-great-way-to-relieve-stress 5 Good Reasons to Try Breathwork https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/feeling-it/202209/5-good-reasons-try-breathwork Enhance Your Well-Being Through Breath Meditation https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/meditation-modern-life/201310/enhance-your-well-being-through-breath-meditation
Modified by Steve at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 08:59:36
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Breathing works. We're all doing it and still alive.Breathing gently and relaxing works. It's relaxing. I can tell you doing almost nothing but that for a solid month gets you the 'samadhi experience', but that's well over-rated.
And breathing gently was just one of the 4 techniques of 'knowledge'.
So from this list of the benefits of breathing, it's a bit of a stretch to imply that there is such a thing as the techniques of 'knowledge'. There is no 'knowledge'. It's just a culty thing concocted by Mr Rawat's Dad, or his scam teacher before that.
It's just breathing. Keep it up.
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On the main street near my house, there is a yoga studio on almost every other block. Yeah, forget about the word "Knowledge" and I plan to keep on breathing until I die.
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The popularity of McDonald's doesn't make their hamburgers nutritious does it.
I don't think you need to plan to keep breathing.
I have to say, Steve, I don't know anyone else who has been such a dogged yoga fan - good luck as you get older. I went to a yoga group, chair yoga for seniors - I thought they meant we'd be doing our exercise sitting down but really they were just using the chair as a prop to do even harder exercises.
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I'm sorry you were disappointed by chair yoga.
Can I recommend sofa yoga? I'm something of an expert. Anyone walking through our living room can vouch for that.
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Yes, I have taken to sofa yoga too.  I went straight from chair yoga to an intensive in sofa yoga and am currently studying for my major in bed yoga. It's line ball, who will get certified first, me or the cat. I think I'm over the line - he just did an excellent stretch but accidentally ended up on the floor.
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Flying Solo is a few years older than me. Stuck in my crusty old ways and proud of it, I've teased her about her internet yoga classes for years, sometimes with a bit of a dismissive scoff. "Get some real excercise." That sort of thing.
The other day, I walked in on her as she was curled-up and cross-legged like a little ball on the bathroom vanity happy as a clam cutting her toe nails in the sink. I'm too stiff to even climb up on the darn thing with a step stool!
Fortunately, it doesn't seem to have much to do with breathing or any Aladin's Lamp type diety. So I figured it must have something to do with all those long, exaggerated stretched-out syllables l overhear the instructor saying whenever I eavesdrop.
Then there's the cat who stretches every time he gets up from doing his cozy cubby yoga.
(Not to be construed as an endorsement of certain other posts in this thread.)
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 19:32:06
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You had quite a bad accident around the time you got knowledge didn't you, and that probably wasn't the only accident you've had. I know I've had more than one accident. One of them is that classic with losing control of a bale of haywire and having the end hit my chest, breaking ribs. That one is good because I forget all about it and when it aches I think oh here comes the heart attack but it isn't at all. I think we have reached the age where old accidents ache.
I do feel basically healthy but omg I struggle to get around, I love being able to swim so easily.
It's already like that George Burns quip - I don't bend down to tie my shoelace until I've thought of something else to do while I'm down there.
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Skechers Slip-Ins! Best invention since sliced bread. They actually work! Changed my life!
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I went and had a look at them - they look like runners, can you really slip into them without having to bend down and get it over your heel? That's pretty amazing. I am mainly barefoot or minimalist sandals still, it might as well be Summer it's so hot but I have already bought my Ugg slip ons for Winter.
Mr Darko Wuffles makes sure I stay limber - not someone who will jump up and eat on the counter, he wants his food on the floor. Then after a few mouthfuls he wants me to move it onto the carpet, not just any carpet my beautiful Persian one I am serious he really does, sometimes he moves to the edge of the carpet, I move his food then he moves to the middle and waits for me to move his food there - I thought we might be able to come up with a compromise - I put a tea towel under the saucer to protect the carpet but not a bit of it - I have to trust him not to shovel the bits he doesn't like onto the floor like he does when he eats in the kitchen and so far so good. I don't know what's more amazing, that he doesn't make a mess on the carpet, that he's so particular where he eats or that I am silly enough to go round after him picking up his saucer of food and putting it down again.
I do have a stretching exercise, it's not yoga though, it's based on the idea of getting your vertebrae to stretch apart as widely as they can so the discs can slip back between them a bit - you know you got it right if you get that two inches taller feeling when you stand up.
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Modified by Steve at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 15:07:08
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and you'll see, it will be beneficial.
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Very true. Lots of things work for different people and none are special.
Over the last 5 years I've been fortunate enough to be accepted into another cult called parkrun. I'm rather at the upper end of the age scale but I can tell you by the end of running a 5k on a cold morning you become very conscious of every single breath as you strain for the finish tunnel. And that when you stop and join the rest of the veterans for a coffee and cake it feels great and the endorphins enough to lift you for the rest of the day. My wife just park walks as fast as she can and gets the same.
All claims around special knowledge of life and special techniques that some know and others don't are -- and always have been bullshit in my opinion.
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Tommo, I signed up for Parkrun here but then COVID hit and it was all closed down. I just never got around to joining after the pandemic lifted.
Now I belong to a gym and do a 5k run every time I go on the treadmill. I love the feeling and actually, for the first time the other day, got the endorphin high that so many people talk about. But I don't do it for that. I just like jogging.
I think yoga is a fine exercise for those who like to twist themselves up into pretzels. I prefer the gym machines. I do one hour on the treadmill and then go around the room using the arms, legs and abdominal machines. I love it because afterwards I hurt, but in that way that feels good - lol. At my age, I am just so grateful to be moving.
As for breathing, I find during running that I focus more on the exhale than the inhale. It is really rhythmic and soothing.
This whole Knowledge crap is just that - crap. Anyone can find peace in whatever they do - it is up to each individual to find what works for them. The problem with cults is that they try to force people into a mold. Religions do it, politics does it. Really, anything that requires me to think a certain way is a 'Danger, Will Robinson.' scenario for me. I pay my gym fees but no one tries to tell me how to run even, or what machines to use. I just get access, full stop.I even get access to the pool if I want, which sometimes I do.
Some people here have mentioned the key element in this whole cult thing - the lack of morality or ethical behaviour, or even simple kindness. Something about cults makes people forget they are human beings first. Not for me, no thanks, nope, no way, oh god NO!
Back to jogging.
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That was really uplifiting! I was a lifelong jogger but I'm reduced to long walks these days, which I enjoy just as much. I gave up money, sex and freedom in the ashram, but not my jogging! And I got a lot of dirty looks for it, too.
Moving any way, any how is a must. 
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 19:56:41
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You are right, lakeshore, the old 'move it or lose it' saying is so true, especially for us older types. Walking, jogging, gardening, anything that moves the old body.
As for money and sex - both highly overrated in my mind. Freedom, now that's a really important one. And the main reason why cults are so damaging. Not just freedom of movement, but freedom of the mind. I love my mind. In fact, I adore my mind. Even when all else fails, I hope to be able to use my mind as long as possible. To think that cult leaders steal that freedom from people is a disgrace of the highest order. Dictators don't always manage to do that, but cult leaders and religious leaders always seem to go for that freedom first.
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Would you consider inviting prem rawat into your new cult "Parkrun".? It sounds like an exciting opportunity for prem to get into better shape, and maybe steal, er uh, incorporate some your techniques with his....a little park run practice couldn't hurt the ole boy...maybe merge the cults?...
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It's such a friendly big open non-exclusive sort of a cult that his cult is subsumed within it and he'd actually be welcome -- he'd even get a little cheer if he put his hand up when the RD asks if there are any 'first timers'. He might have to walk at first -- but hey -- certainly would do him some good
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It’s great to read this discussion and thank you so much for responding to this thread, I believe that to address what “knowledge” is will help a lot the premies to get “deprogrammed” and see their master as the Conman and criminal he is. The belief in “knowledge” is part of the fraud Prem Rawat has set up in order to be the leader of a cult and make people, even ex premies, believe that somehow his “knowledge” was beneficial for them. So, if the bath water is Prem, a pedophile master behaving like a mob boss, is the baby the “techniques of knowledge” ? (and in that context I do not understand why do you call them techniques of knowledge and not techniques of yoga) I have a few remarks on that topic after reading all the responses: The Techniques Prem Rawat “teaches” are the following: 1. Closing your eyes and placing your fingers on your eyes touching the spot at your forehead between your eyes for 15min and just stay like that and see the various artifacts created by the pressure on your eyeballs 2. Closing your ears with your hands upwards and just stay like that and hear the buzz created by the pressure on your ears for 15min 3. Closing your eyes stay still and just breath without any specific gudelines for 15min 4. Turning your tongue around inside your mouth and just stay there and feel the various saliva produced for 15min For me, and many ex premies, just to reveal those techniques is very stressful because we were indoctrinated not to share with anyone and we had to take a vow we won’t. Taking vows like that is definitely a cult practice. Now: Are those techniques beneficial ? To what ? To the body ? The mind ? They calm you ? Is that the benefit you get from practicing them? Well I have practiced these techniques every day more than an hour per day religiously focusing inside etc for many many years since I was 15 y old. And yes I did have plenty of “Experiences” But I had these experiences believing that whatever I feel is the “divine” However when I “received knowledge” by Prem Rawat I had a hard time accepting that these psychical techniques had anything to do with knowing God ! I did them because Rawat said they are the key to God. I don’t find them beneficial otherwise so once I stopped believing Rawat immediately these techniques seemed to me totally stupid. The “third” technique, consisting in just sitting down and breathing it’s even ridiculous to call it a technique. And even more ridiculous not to be allowed to tell it to someone else because if they learn it of you and not of Rawat it will ruin their experience (and their life, since this “experience” is the purpose of life)!
Otherwise Yoga as you probably all know means union with God and it’s religious , to use a religious practice from India to help relax or have any other benefit besides finding God is not yoga, but a western use of yoga techniques as gymnastics and relaxation method and of course most of gymnastics and relaxation methods that people are using are good for them since they seem to need it if they are using it. And there are lots of papers pointing out the negative effects ie dissociation etc. but this is irrelevant to the discussion about “knowledge”. I personally don’t need to do anything special to relax , I feel very relaxed when I am in a safe place with my loved ones my beautiful son I spend quality time with my art my husband etc And looking at nature etc So I don’t feel I need to do something special to relax. As for gymnastic I still do “astanga yoga” some mornings for stretching but I don’t believe it has anything to do with me feeling peace god divine or any other special “energy” and of course it has nothing to do with believing in “knowledge” Susan and so many others have explained it perfectly : the techniques are not the problem, the religion Rawat created that makes these techniques special is what is the problem because he uses that religion to cover a criminal organization. There is huge difference between: a) sitting down and breathing or doing whatever one wants to do to relax or feel more quiet, and b) believing that because they are more quiet now they have attained some higher spiritual level and are “in peace”. It’s an ego trip and premies all have fall into that trip and this hinders them from acknowledging the truth about their master because they have a lot to lose : their belief that they are spiritually superior to other people who “don’t have knowledge”.
Modified by maria77 at Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 05:07:12
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That the third technique is the most ridiculous. While you are right to ask whether it should even qualify as a technique, sitting down and breathing, the others are more absurd.
The first has damaged people's eyes. At least the way I was taught it. The newer version, without the pressure, produced no light.
The second was just adding the muscle vibration of your fingers and arms to the background tinnitus. At least the way I was taught it. Take away the beragon or knees to rest your elbows on, as in the revised version, and it becomes a painful game of how long can I hold my arms in this ridiculous position whilst ignoring the discomfort.
The fourth, bending your tongue back. What can I say. Nuing. Nuing a or. So stupid.
So the third, not even a technique, is the best technique.
It used to be described as turning your senses within. But I have at least five senses. Only four techniques.
Was I missing something? I think I was.
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Good points. I'm not entirely sure if it's true or not, but it definitely falls into the category of absurd. I read on this forum a long time ago that Shri Hans added the tongue curling one as an afterthought to make it an even four pack.
Every time I think four pack, I think of a cheap six pack. Not that I didn't love my beer, but the association seems appropriate.
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I know my comments will probably be met with derision, but here goes. The first year after I received k, I didn't practice or follow Prem. I continued my hippie sex, drugs, rock and roll lifestyle. This included LSD. during that time without physically practicing the techniques, I experienced all four techniques without even trying. A light brighter than the sun, celestial cosmic prog jazz bands, and a nectar sweeter than honey and smelled more fragrant than gardenias. I can't explain it. I didn't attribute it to Prem. I have had similar cosmic experiences since leaving Prem and k. I think it is an essential part of who I am. This also includes many past life memories before Prem and after Prem. "There are more things in heaven and Earth....." My experience of life is essentially that we are cosmic beings living in a meat suit for just a few moments. These experiences predated my use of psychedelic substances, and expended well after as well.
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Hi Maria77,
"For me, and many ex-premies, just to reveal those tecniques is very stressful because we were indoctrinated not to share with anyone and we had to take a vow we won't."
I struggled with that as well. As for indoctrination, it struck at the core of the fear of Maharaji (Prem Rawat) and his "omnipotent" powers: "Guru Maharaji. The Lord. All powerful." His exact words. Fear that something bad will happen if I break that promise. Fear that Prem Rawat could cast me to the other side of the universe with the blink of an eye if I disobeyed him. We were so indoctrinated that not only did Prem Rawat say such things, but we repeated them to each other.
(To anyone reading this, please don't laugh. I know it's funny, but still... That's precisely what Prem Rawat taught before he disavowed it and was so cowardly that he blamed his own words on his followers... even as he secretly continued to act and manipulate them accordingly and allowed them to continue to believe it!!)
"Revealing" the techniques was universally understood by premies to be the worst thing a premie could possibly do. I was shocked the first time I saw the techniques revealed (stupid word) explained on this forum. Moreover, I was raised to believe that breaking a promise was one of the worst things I could do. I had that working against me as well.
So I'm entrusted with the combination to the safe the bank robber stashed all his loot in. The ONLY reason Prem Rawat made us promise was to protect his secret source of all his ill-begotten, shamelessly exploitative conman gain used to support his insatiable greed.
I thought of you when I posted this recently:
"...as with any contract or agreement, a promise, especially an uninformed promise, made in furtherance of a crime or fraud is null and void. I believe they call it the crime/fraud exception."
There are countless examples across all aspects of law.
So, as I'm sure you know, no need to feel any stress. To the contrary, please take comfort in knowing that you're ethically doing everything you can do to protect others from this fraud.
Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 07:49:44
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This is part 2 of my teenage son posting on the forum in 1997-
Date: Sat, May 10, 1997 at 14:32:01 (EDT)
Poster: Gunther Glockenspeil
Email:
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Why?
Message:
How did you know about Maharaji and find this site? Did your mom ever say she thought M was a sort of God or are you assuming that? The basic premise is to experience something inside yourself that exists beyond the thought processes of the mind. What is the life inside of you looking out of your eyes? What would you experience if the mind became very still? Maharaji told people that such an experience was possible and gave people a method to try it out. Each person then got to make their own judgement of that experience. Some people were impressed and felt M must be special in some way. He was a tangible symbol of a peaceful possibility. I consider his teaching to be very positive. It leads a person to live inspired by an inner feeling which is not tainted by belief systems or prejudices. Is Knowledge a magic pill? No, it takes commitment and effort just like learning to do anything well does. CD 1) My mom was looking at this and I was wathing her over the shoulder, thats how I found out about the site. And I knew of Maharaji from the both of them when I was very young. 2) She said she did think that but now belives he's a dirty rotten scoundrel. 3) The life looking out of my eyes, my mom named Gunther Glockenspeil when I was born. 4) If my mind became very still I'd either be asleep, in a coma, dead, or uncouncius. 5) Knowledge might be a magic pill. My mom says, that this knowledge is some sort of inition where you touch your eyeball? Stick your finger in your ears? Listen to yourself exhale? and Stick your tongue up your throat and taste snot? Now if I wanted to taste snot I could just pick my nose. My mom also says she's going to hell in a handbasket because she shared this knowledge with me. You must have some leak because I see a lot of three year old running around touching the eyes and sticking the fingers in their ears and eating snot at the parks. I think they call it recess... or fun something like that. Thats just one man's humble opinion.
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(The most amusing part was a debate ensued after this where folks here took sides as to whether or not my son was “real” or Jim Heller pretending to be a teenage son of an ex premie! My son chimed in with “Am I Real?”) |
Modified by Susan at Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 10:53:05
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Date: Mon, May 12, 1997 at 00:54:22 (EDT)
Poster: ZEB
Email:
To: Gunther Glockenspiel
Subject: Gunther- I'm a friend
Message:
Hi there. I am using my name as ZEB because that used to be my old name until I changed it. First of all, I am also 17 years old and my mom was involved in the Divine Light cult. So IS my dad, however. He's my step-dad (I love him very much, though.) My real dad was married to my mom a long time ago and they both were involved in the Divine Light cult until he stopped practicing knowledge and realized how stupid this thing was. But that wasn't the reason they split up. That's a whole other story for a different web-site. Anyways, it wasn't till I was about 14 years old that I became brain-washed, so to speak, into thinking that Maharaji was the spiritual master and if I didn't get knowledge, I was missing the whole boat of life. I had started listening to tapes of Maharaji speaking and watched videos, pretty sure that I wanted to receive knowledge when I was 18, and I couldn't wait to receive it, wished that they would drop the age of receiving knowledge so that I could be 'fulfilled' in this life. I would go to public showings of Maharaji videos, and was so happy. But of course, I woke up about a year ago and realized that I was going to join a cult. The experience that opened my eyes, came about a year ago. I had always bugged my mom and dad about letting me go to a Maharaji event so I could see him live. Well I went to Miami Beach, Florida to see an Anniversary event. (30 years of teaching, 25 years in North America). And that is when my eyes were opened. It was the third and final day of the program. I was enjoying myself and having a great old time in the 90 degree farenheight weather. Near the end of the final program after he had done his little speaking, he left the stage and then people cheered and he came back out. Some of his 'followers' were singing songs to him. One of them was 'ROCK ME MAHARAJI'. Practically everybody in the building stood up and starting singing 'Rock me Maharaji, roll me tonight, Rock me Maharaji, say it's alright.......it's alright.....' blah blah blah. And I looked around the whole place, at the thousands of people throwing their hands in the air, singing these songs of praise to this guy (Maharaji) sitting in this chair smiling. And I got a look at his eyes, and it was almost as if he were thinking 'Yes! This is how I wanted it to be! This is the way it should be.' And at that moment I realized that no human being on this earth should be worshipped and have that kind of power over people. It's just not right. I guess my mom must have seen it in my eyes (how weird I thought this whole thing was) because a few months ago, my mom left the Divine Light cult, for good. It has caused some major turmoil in our home since my dad is still involved with it. But things, I think, are starting to cool off a bit. Sorry Gunther, I guess I kind of just got carried away. I can type so fast (76-85 words a minute) so it doesn't take me very long to type a whole huge message. I guess my whole point that I am trying to make is that (in response to your question) Maharaji is not some sort of God. Some people might label him as that, but it's all brain-wash. Believe me, there is nothing Godly about Maharaji. There are a whole bunch of bad things about this cult that I would have to make this message a few pages more. The list just go's on and on like a duracell battery. I can relate to you, Gunther, and I hope this post has helped you. Greetings and tidings from ZEB (an admitted Nice Guy)
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Date: Mon, May 12, 1997 at 01:29:21 (EDT)
Poster: Gunther Glockenspiel
Email:
To: ZEB
Subject: Re: Gunther- I'm a friend
Message:
That's an impressive tale. The closest I came to the cult was when I was about 4 months old and my dad took me to one of the Holi? things. We they spit paint out of huge super soakers or something. Sounds like something I would do now at a rock Concert. Anyway, your story was helpful in depicting the kind of guy Mahraji is. For Chrises sake I will not make any comparsions. (Nothing about snot though. 8 ) Well, its cool your from Miami too because thats where I was. Now I am on a different seaboard so I guess I can't just drive over and say Yo. Anyway. Maybe we'll talk some other time. I know a guy here whose name is Zeb, he's a cool guy.
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If Knowledge works, and frankly it never really did for me, but if it did or does for some, so what?
As you and Hans said so well.
It's the what Prem Rawat attaches to the "concept" of Knowledge which is toxic, not the meditation itself.
I don't need to explain anything to anyone here. You all know. What's important is whatever got implanted in premies psyche had very little to do with light, music, word or nectar. What got implanted was this "experience" is more real than your fellow human beings, or any injustice, any person you love in this world. And that you have an imaginary friend in Prem Rawat, who has fed all his many insatiable desires on the back of this con.
Again, lots of others Maria77, Lakeshore, 13, Aunt Bea .... virtually all of you... and now Hans too... have said this so well.
I am so disturbed by his rebranding and success of getting in schools and prisons. I feel ill about the photos of him with children in the past 5 years. I am disgusted by the people who are complicit around him. Some of whom, I think know exactly what he is and is not, yet remain out of self interest and fear that there is no way out of their complicity.
Modified by Susan at Fri, Mar 01, 2024, 18:29:44
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I can't bring myself to look, but since you seem familiar with it Susan - what's the deal? He's long since given up being Satguru, but what does be pin his peace ambassador thing on? Meditation? Is 'knowledge' still a thing? What's the schtick these days?
Short answer without links would be great!
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Sorry to interject and I'd welcome other thoughts...
I watched a clip of Prem Rawat speaking to a PEP (Peace Education Program) audience and - except for the ommissions of Lord, God, Master and His Grace - what he's saying hasn't really changed. It occurred to me that as much as I've referred to rebranded, it's not so much rebranding as it is a repackaged version of the same old thing. The difference is language and the veneer of legitimacy: a well-dressed (premie manipulated) best-selling author and (premie funded) humanitarian with a unique message of peace and something called self-knowledge. Spice it up with global ambassador of peace and there you have it: the schtick these days.
To paraphrase: "You, who you really are, not your thoughts, ideas, dreams and opinions... is so much more. Those things change but you, the real you, doesn't change. I can show you who you really are."
Self-knowledge. The real you. Who you really are. To the vulnerable, defenseless and unsuspectiing - to those who sip the Koolaid - a saccharine sweet lullaby, almost logical, from a seemingly credible and legitimate source. The same irresistible bait. Just like it was for me.
Four laughably absurd techniques to those fortunate enough to see through the scam.
Maybe repackaged instead of rebranded. A far more mainstream, legitimate, contemporary and socially acceptable presentation with effective use of high quality productions, social media and other internet media, which makes it easy to market to prisons, court systems, schools and other places - all over the world - backed by well-trained followers hell bent on performing impeccably for their, well... master!
(I'm sure they would deny that and use the repackaged language of "I only do it because of how much I appreciate everything he's done for me." )
So much has already been said about the deep layers of deceiptful ommissions and hypocrisy.
Sorry, I know that wasn't short.
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Mar 02, 2024, 09:47:25
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'Sorry, I know that wasn't short.'
My attention span hasn't declined that much yet. See, I got right to the end.
I haven't seen a video of Rawat since I quit. Thought I'd simply lost interest. But the thought of watching another to see how things had changed was surprisingly repugnant.
I salute your detachment, and thanks for your precis.
In my ideal world, schools, prisons and court systems would do background checks on everyone invited there, and it wouldn't take much digging to arrive at the words cult, hypocrite and now, paedophile.
Oh well.
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“Prem Rawat is a world-renowned peace educator and author”
From Prem Rawat . Com
They post a lot of things that always reminded me of those corporate business inspiration posters. Quote of the day is common.
Indian followers don’t appear to treat him much differently but haven’t seen a dancing video or a Krishna crown that isn’t 10 years old. Heard there have been darshan lines in India 10-15 years ago. The videos of the followers make it totally clear they believe all the same things.
On Facebook, this is just from holding my nose and looking, American followers slip up and use the old language or post old photos and the current faithful chastise them that Prem doesn’t want those out there.
Look at the YouTube of “Behind the Message” or the CNN clip and or reviews on Prem Rawat’s books and the premies just don’t get the cloying praise makes it look more like a cult than any Hindu ritual ever did.
I think they are catching on that the focus on Prem’s photos, and there are a LOT of those, makes it look like a cult, they are putting out a lot more video with endorsments by young inspired attractive people or photos of kids looking joyful.
There has been reason to believe they have hired outside PR firms, perhaps more than once, and maybe the outsiders see how they are telegraphing cult.
I was most chuckling that there was a video of Prem on his way to an event taking public transport. It looks like a train, he goes through a turnstile, still, there is a problem, next to him is Patrick his valet carrying his briefcase. Also he is traveling with someone else in a lot of the image videos think same dude from coffee talk with Prem and Marolyn. Patrick is in LOTS of the photos. Almost always Patrick is carrying a bag or briefcase.
My impression too is the Indians really LIKE the helicopters and jets and opulence. I don’t think the Everyman video was made for them.
And… Lakeshore’s answer is great.
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Thanks.
I wonder if the western premies (like my brother who doesn't talk to me any more) still think he's the Lord of the Universe, in disguise, playing it down, so that only the faithful can see who he really is... or something.
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yes, I'm pretty sure that's still what the old timer premies think.
I am very sorry to hear your brother still isn't talking to you, that's so hurtful, what's wrong with him.
My eldest brother and I don't talk but still do the birthday and Christmas thing. suits us both really - he doesn't want to admit how wrong he got a few things which he would have to if he acknowledged the truth of me and I'm a bit fed up.
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My belief is entirely based on second hand reports and social media.
I completely believe the vast majority of the faithful who travel to Amaroo would delight in it if he revived all his old costumes and customs.
I think he might actually get more new followers not less if he went full heavy devotional era #3 with darshan, the mala, the crowns, Holi and the spectacle.
I could be wrong, but reading the comments on his YouTubes or books, I don't think I am. He might not fly under the radar so well because it's so cinematic, the old extravanzas. He likely wouldn't get the same numbers in the West, but I think if he revived the show he might get more coming to see it.
Yes, I believe some are just waiting for him to do just that and when he does they will congratulate themselves for never losing faith in who He is and always has been.
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