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There is a lively discussion taking place on Don Johnson's Facebook page involving Hans Rawat and current and former followers of Prem Rawat.
I encourage anyone interested to open Don's Facebook page and look at his 2nd post from the top entitled: An uplifting message from Prem Rawat: "The chances are you've never seen the other side of me."
Click on the 138 Comments and scroll down a few posts to a post by Janice Wilson. Then click on the 38 Replies to her post. Hans commented about Prem Rawat's childhood sexual abuse of him and the entrapment of cult indoctrination.
The number of comments and replies to comments have been rising quickly.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 12:30:32
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Yep , I'm taking part in that discussion and have just replied to Joe with regard's to some appalling things that Prem said during his trainings back in the 90s
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Here are some extracts from a recent satellite broadcast. An amalgamation of two “trainings”, Atlanta and Amaroo, plus some other clips. These particular extracts are from the Atlanta training in July 2000 called “Introducing the possibility of knowledge” This was the next to last “drip” for me. I was watching a video recording of it, on my own, in my house, and I just hated it so much, I was screaming at the screen….some of it unrepeatable!! but …” THAT’S IT, I’M OUTA HERE” Anyway, I thought you might like to hear some of it, so I transcribed this….
On screen heading, “The Fundamentals” The following extract is a straight, uncut sequence.
Maharaji… “Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening. The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments..the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back. You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master…Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. …Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.” (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling)
Another extract entitled “A little History”
Maharaji….” When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it. The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Because people would ask me point blank these questions…”Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that? “ (I’ve missed a bit here) “So, that’s the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts. Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes…..What do you think?….Does this far of the history make any sense? And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there”
I expect you can imagine the way all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him. Oh yes, I forgot, it’s a privilege!!! Anyway I could comment on this forever, but I’d be very interested in your comments. Kelly
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My comments are a little unprintable but well he's fear mongering isn't he - cracking the whip.
The first bit about Knowledge being his so you better kiss his masterly ass is part of his basic schtick.
The second bit seems to me to be about how scared he was feeling about being exposed and a reaction to that. 2000 is the year I exited too - after reading EPO.
So yes, here we are 24 years later. I will admit I am rocked by what's coming out now and I don't think I've entirely taken it on board yet but I do feel it's definitely in the better out than in category. Thanks to Shana, Hans and all, I think it's a good thing you are doing and hope you stay safe.
Modified by lesley at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 15:00:43
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I was sure they'd never ever show that video in public again. I wrote: During these sessions Prem Rawat appears to have a bad cold and/or be having dental reconstruction work and he has become the Master of the Raised Eyebrows.
https://prem-rawat-bio.org/videos/mj_atlanta.html
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Since you asked...I remember that first clip because the depth of Prem's smug lip-smacking sarcasm in the way he said "compliments of your friendly master" made an indelible impression. Reading it again from my altered perspective brought three things to mind.
I pictured myself finger flicking him away like a small annoying thing. I'm not a violent person and so I couldn't think of an example until a mosquito in the middle of biting me popped into my head.
That led to a memory. As a child, a divorce caused me to be yanked from my lakeshore home to an inner-city apartment. My new friends were rough around the edges. One day as I was walking down a sidewalk, a bully approached me from behind and began taunting me as he crept-up on me. I was frightened. Out of nowhere, Beamer, a big kid who had taken me under his wing, came up and lifted the bully from behind by his pants and the scruff of his T-shirt collar and gave him a boot.
Finally, I thought "Who the hell do YOU think YOU'RE talking to you arrogant little... Show a little respect. It's YOUR privilege that I give you so much as an OUNCE of MY attention and I expect YOU to treat ME with dignity and respect."
I didn't think that with ego or any inflated sense of myself, but rather from a sense of reclaiming my own self-respect and dignity that he stole from me when I stooped as low as I did for him in that cult - much like I along with the rest of the people in that audience did with that jittery submissive laughter.
Thank you Kelly. I read your post in that thread. 
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 04:29:05
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than someone claiming to be your 'friendly master'?
Wowser!
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I'm very inexperienced with FB.
I get to Dojo's page, and his latest post seems to be from 12 Oct, 23.
Are more recent posts available to friends only, not the public?
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so am I. I've got a couple of reasons to go on Facebook now but can't get past the log in process.
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>>Are more recent posts available to friends only, not the public?<<
I have/had the same thought like 13.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
Modified by Ash at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 14:22:33
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Maybe this was too much 'public' for him? Gosh, I so feel for him and Shana.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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He changed the setting to public. Maybe you don't have to be "friends" to see. There are all sort of weird things on Facebook. It's very hard to follow a thread all the comments have to open but it's there.
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Still looks the same to me. I can't access any recent discussions.
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I've looked at Don's discussion and the problem is that Hans had replied to a post from someone called Janice, which expanded into a long discussion. Unfortunately, Janice then deleted her post which resulted in all the replies also being deleted. This is just how Facebook works and is a slap in the face for all those who replied. Yet more evidence that the ancient software used by this forum is superior to Facebook!* If a post is deleted here, all replies remain. *(apart from the fact that archives only show the opening post, and only the last 12 years appear to be kept in the non-archived posts) John
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Social media is the platform the cult, like many others, is using at least to make them appear legitimate. I wonder how many places they have infiltrated that they have not created slick videos celebrating themselves about.
But yes, I got so frustrated trying to keep track of those comments. You have to open the comments over and over to follow who is saying what to who. I do prefer this ancient software too. Especially for a discussion with such nuance. But it's as confusing as a rotary phone to the young I guess. And maybe not the place to have the most impact?
I didn't know Don as a premie but he does seem to get outsized premie attention when he posts. While I despise the things they say, they illustrate that its a cult so well. I sent a link to TPRF YouTube to someone unfamiliar with Prem Rawat to say, look at what he is doing now. And I got back- the comments! the comments are so cultlike!
I don't miss the days of Bjorns and Catweasels and Richard2's. But, that mentality was alive and well in the discussion. Very reminiscent of what it was like on the Forum in the old days.
There have been some nasty comments to Wasapremie but not really tons. The more annoying thing for me is that the Indian premies start sharing the old photos as worship photos posting praying hands and hearts and "I love Master Prem Ji". Sometimes I post text over it especially when it's the kids. They especially go gaga over the kids and they are sure to get a lot of attention by the Indians.
Which leads to something - this started with the "Boy" guru. Prem himself seems to love to talk about how he was "four years old" in many recent speeches, when he began "speaking about peace".
I am seeing that there was this almost a fetish about childhood in the cult. The mahatmas used to fixate on being like a child, guileless heart. The residence staff apparently at least as of 5 years ago or so were still referring to them as "mom" and "dad" . When they are not referring to Prem Rawat as "the Boss" or even, as was noted "Captain"
Cult experts say this focus on the purity and images of children is quite common in most cults.
The Rawat children when they were born were a big deal. Marolyn called them our brothers and sisters. They were in all the Divine Times, And it is Divine, Elan Vital. All the videos in those days had video of the kids. Anyone remember the time they were just on the stage, Wadi and Hansi, playing with the mic, babbling to a large crowd of adoring premies in Miami? One of the nannies (one I had met in my toothbrush cleaning of a Miami residence bathroom days before the family arrived) and Marolyn sitting with them with a look of bliss and adoration. And Wadi saying another nanny's name over and over along with Mama and Hansi. The happiest I ever saw Hans look on stage, just playing with his sister, and he blew the crowd a kiss. Probably was two or three.
https://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/dlm_pubs/divinetimes/197805/centrefold.html
Anyway, the kids were definitely used a lot, and they still, to this day, get outsized attention from the Indian premies if an old photo is posted.
In the past 5 years I have seen videos and photos of Prem with kids in Africa, Malaysia, Japan, India. We saw video of teens talking about "Prem" after watching the Peace Education program in United States public schools. Do we really think premies would keep their children, or their, grandchildren, away from him? I don't. I think it would be an honor, just like it was when Jagdeo paid attention to a child. The parents though it meant their child was special. I find this urgent.
When I first started looking again, it was hard to find a Timeless Today or YouTube video or cult promo that didn't feature Prem's face. I think someone is figuring out that is just not helping their it's not a cult image. Lately, especially the Denmark videos, are sort of like motivational stock photos, but even so, much of the time, it's imagery of chidren. The implication I see, is practice knowledge and you will return to a childlike state of wonder at the world.
It wasn't such a world of wonder for a lot of kids in this cult. Not just the sexually assaulted children. So many posts over the years of kids being dragged to kiss his feet, left in a premie house with some creep, or kids that lived in poverty but somehow their parents found the funds to travel internationally to festivals. Also a lot of stories, no offense to the people who remember nice childcare set ups, but that's not the stories I hear, I hear about chaos and sunburns and bullies and bugs and missing their parents. They may be remembering Kissimmee. The other thing I hear is kid that knew in their guts that their parents loved Guru Maharaj Ji more than them, because in those days, that was exactly what was expected and demanded by Prem Rawat himself.
Modified by Susan at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 00:24:49
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I had a memory recently and this seems like a good place to put it. When I was living in the NYC ashram in the late 70s, I remember this day when Marolyn was giving birth to I think it must have been Dayalata. All of the ashram premies were asked to not go to work and we were all in one house. There was some local honcho on the phone with some other honcho somewhere else, or maybe it was some kind of conference call.
We were all supposed to be super holy and meditating and talking in whispers because of the extraordinary sacred moment. Our meditation was supposed to help in the birth of yet another divine child. Very similar to how a knowledge session was in those days but much more extreme. If that doesn't scream cult I don't know what does. Everyone was so joyous when the baby was finally born and singing aarti and all that other nonsense. Probably tears and rapture too.
Do any other ex-ashramites remember that?
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Wasn't just ashram folk.
I was sitting meditating all day - it was a long birth I thought. And then I remembered, I don't have a phone. No-one will tell me when I can stop. So I stopped, all of my own accord, not knowing if the baby was born or what, and no idea how me cross-legged in a little bedsit in Leeds was helping things along.
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that's funny. I remember hearing we were supposed to meditate all day and just thinking no, not going to do it. I thought it was likely to be hype from premies but it wasn't, not that I remember feeling at all guilty when I found that out.
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I never was an 'ashramite', but just an ordinary community premie in Frankfurt(Germany). I remember one sunday when the whole community (or at least, all of the community that could make time) was called to a place where they had set up this technical stuff (honchos on the phone with other honchos) to wait for Premlata to be born. I was in the ninth month expecting my second child, and about 2 weeks after Premlata's birth, my 2nd son was born. I have no memories of Hans' and Daya's birth, let alone, Amar's. Just Premlata because that was so close to my 2nd son's birth ... and I was not exactly feeling well sitting there on the hard floor with my nearly-exploding belly. The atmosphere there was "holy". Holy-moley, how holy we all were! *giggle*
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
Modified by Ash at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 05:52:36
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What's really striking to me today with all of these old idealistic stories from the 70's, amidst the new sordid revelations about prem and family members, is how ironic it is that it has fallen so far, while never acknowledging the fall....prem started out in the west over 50 years ago, preaching peace and love, which was like catnip to a hippy generation in decline, and more than talk, he had the answer! Knowledge! And he and his family were of course the best examples of this holiest of holy, knowledges of all knowledges... And now, 50 years later, when we all thought we would be living in the golden age with prem as a universally acknowledged world leader, he is a broken man with a broken wife and family, and 95+% of his students have left him and the teaching...family issues, alcoholism, angry exes, cast aside mistresses, disillusioned premies.....and never an acknowledgment of the problems, just another ill begotten venture into another aspect of bringing knowledge to the world....ironic that the guy who told us that we all needed inner peace, can't possibly have too much for himself these days....I guess the teaching wasn't all it was cracked up to be...
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.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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Hi 1972.
Well said. Not to express any disagreement, but I intended to politely correct "angry exes." First I wrote "It's not so much anger as it is the righteous indignation of former followers who had the courage to speak out and expose Prem Rawat's grotesque hypocrisy and immoral behavior."
But I was wrong. I looked-up righteous indignation:
Anger resulting from disgust at something perceived as immoral or morally incorrect, and claimed to be an acceptable form of anger because of that sense of morality.
Chalk me up as an angry ex.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 08:03:21
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just another ill begotten venture into another aspect of bringing knowledge to the world...
Definition of Ponzi scheme: (Wikipedia)
In a Ponzi scheme, a con artist offers investments that promise very high returns with little or no risk to their victims. The returns are said to originate from a business or a secret idea run by the con artist. In reality, the business does not exist or the idea does not work in the way it is described.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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"when we all thought we would be living in the golden age with prem as a universally acknowledged world leader"
I definitely thought this. I believed that whole peace bomb exploding and that the whole world would be premies.
If the whole thing wasn't so damn sad it would be the most ridiculous cult ever.
I always imagined a film based on Prem would look like Boogie Nights. Funny, but horrible but very sad. Mabye a little Sopranos mixed in. Definitely would be a creative genius to be able to get how absurd it was yet really deeply rotten and unfunny at the core. I keep posting this quote just because I think these guys really were that sort of genius in how they made Lord of the Universe and captured both.
"When we first began planning the film, we thought the guru was humorous,” Marquez told me. "Here was this outrageous fat kid, sitting on thrones, riding around in Rolls Royces, saying all these indecipherable things. It seemed funny. But the closer we got to it, the more we got the feeling that it was very evil."
https://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/newspapers/1974/31307216.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Universe
Look how successful one of the main producers became
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0787834/
https://gurumaharaji.info/video/lord_of_the_universe/
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This is a bit off-topic but for some reason, your post reminded me of an
event that happened to me in the late 1970s concerning phobia induction. According to Steven Hassan, a fear is supposed to protect us from real danger
and a phobia exists when a person wrongly believes they are in danger. Inducing
phobias is a universal mind-control tool used by cults to exert undue
influence. A typical cult-induced phobia is the fear of being unable to lead a
happy and successful life outside the cult. So, cults deliberately install phobias to control their members. Such
phobias can be so deeply implanted that cult members may not know they exist.
Being educated in a cult’s beliefs and loaded language as well as phobias
particular to the group, is critical to exiting a cult. So here is the event. I remember Joe Anctil coming to our local ashram in the mid to late 1970s
and warning us not to “jump off Maharaji’s boat into a shark-infested ocean”.
This was a deliberately installed phobia designed to keep us in the cult. I
remember being genuinely taken aback by Anctil’s statement and forcing myself
to say, “What sharks, what ocean?” For the first time in my life as a premie, I
felt I was being deliberately f*cked with and that there was something underhanded
and malicious going on.
Modified by Steve at Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 15:29:23
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Yes, I remember being asked to meditate and being told Marilyn was having a rough labor.
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"I am seeing that there was this almost a fetish about childhood in the cult."
A few folks here might remember an iconic cult poster from about 1975. A lovely, bright five-year-old-girl on a swing with blue skies, abundant flowers and plenty of sunshine:
"Remember that feeling?"
And to all your excellent examples of child neglect in that cult, I would add 1) the resentment of "house holder" premies who couldn't move into the ashram because of their children; 2) non-western Hindu-derived names given to the children of premies; and 3) premie parents to this day dipping into their adult childrens' inheritances to leave money and property for Prem Rawat in their wills.
And don't forget the premie divorce mills around the time of DECA to free premies up to serve their Lord and Master.
Thank you!
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 08:36:27
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Those were huge ones to leave off the list.
Does anyone else remember that he started naming boys something akin to Irving? I would not swear to it, but my “mind” said he was giving them all this not cool in that decade Western name as a joke and because he was annoyed by having to name so many babies. It’s been so long I wouldn’t swear to this. I did know the Sunitas, Satgandas … most of us have heard of Devendra who used the oddness to his advantage I think.
My ex and I got into an argument because he wanted me to consent to letting Prem name our kids. Even though I had left. I did not consent to that and we named them. Someday though, I will post a photo of me and my son, with his permission, from a Miami Holi. I went despite being an ex and sat in back and watched got a little spray. I always liked Holi. I have been tempted to go to a “real” Holi someday the more egalitarian version looks like …
My older kids didn’t really escape being affected by the cult. My ex worked at DECA and I heard he went to last Amaroo.
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I didn't witness it myself, but there was a famous "story" running through the (German - don't know if elsewhere as well) community and it was like
There was a premie in England who had the chance to ask Maharaji a question, and he asked him to please give a name to his recently born son. And M's answer was "Call him Henry." (What a cold shower... it was always a good joke among us "normal" premies.)
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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I bet that is exactly the same memory.
(Henry has made a comeback in the baby name world. It sounds cool again. Irving not so much... but maybe in 10 years?)
Thanks for confirming that. I had friends who were the "normal" premies. Some of them were pretty decent parents I thought. Not one of the people I thought were good parents, and I babysat a lot of premie kids of people I still think were good parents, asked Prem Rawat name their child.
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So true John. As someone in the website business and who has, in his own humble opinion, one of the hippest websites in the internet at the moment: this forum is great. For exactly the reasons you state. But also because it is independent!!! And it is really difficult or even impossible to follow a post and response thread on FB once it is more than a few people. You don't know who is talking to whom.
I sometimes refer to this forum among colleagues and friends. Amazing that it actually still works technically. So unique in today's slick online world. On a phone it is pretty hard to use though. That is why platforms like FB look the way they do: the current dogma of "Mobile First."
Here is another favourite old-fashioned website I love to show to people. We are in good company. Sometimes when I show this to a client they don't get my sense of humour though.
https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/
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This is so structured, you see in one glance where you want to go from the start page. Yes, good 'old-fashioned' times!
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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"Sometimes when I show this to a client they don't get my sense of humor though."
OMG! When I looked at one of your favourite old-fashioned websites, I thought "Yup. So easy a caveman can do it." Then I noticed the advertisement at the bottom of the page!!
As I'm sure you know, Geico recently dissed the caveman again in a new commercial, which is why it was on my mind. One of the best ad campaigns ever, imo.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 06:31:40
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I thought everyone would know who Berkshire Hathaway is, but I shouldn't have assumed that. That very primitive 1990s looking website I linked to is the company of one of the richest people in the world, one Warren Buffet. And as far as ultra rich people are concerned, he is a pretty okay kind of guy. That is why I said we are in good company.
Geico Insurance is one of the tons of companies owned by Berkshire Hathaway.
PS: THANKS JOHN for doing such a great job all of these years!!!
Modified by aunt bea at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 08:09:11
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I confess to associating Berkshire Hathaway with... Michael Bloomberg! I must've had NYC on my mind after I heard you lived in the NYC ashram. I got the primitive part, but I didn't pick-up on the good company and the juxtaposition between primitive and unlimited resources.
I was in the Boston ashram when Daya was born and transferred to Portland, ME as CC in the summer of 1979. I was subsequently transferred to the Manhattan ashram in 1980, so we likely have mutual acquaintences.
Interestingly, the Mahattan ashram lease expired and ashram premies were dispersed to live with community premies for most of that summer until an exquisite brownstone on the upper west side - West 89th just off Central Park - was leased. The intention was to establish a "super ashram" to impress the public with how "normal" we were, especially in preparation for Prem's upcoming public event tour.
I've posted about the social engineering behind it: only well-bred, sharp-dressed high-income socialites need apply. (Also because the rent was $4,000 a month in 1980.)
I didn't make the cut and got my sorry ass banished to Hartford, CT to be the CC.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 09:33:33
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YES!!!! John, you don't get near enough credit! There have been times when things here were slow and seemed stagnant. I wondered if it's time had gone and it would Peter out. I WAS WRONG! I do hope premies are reading here more than ever!
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
AN ANGRY EX PREMIE
Karen
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Thank you so much John.
(I can’t name everyone who kept it going, I am sorry I am sure I will forget someone but I will try to name some because anyone who herded the forum felines deserves a little credit too- Katie, Brian, Scott, Jim, Gerry, Jean Michel- your reign has been the longest…. Thanks for hanging in!)
Thank you!!!!
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13, Lesley and Ash: I confirmed that the post and comments I referred to can only be viewed by Facebook "friends" of Don Johnson who've either sent him a "friend request" or received one from him. Thank you for making me aware of this.
(The comments have risen from 138 to 178 and climbing in the past several hours.)
Following are several, but not all, of Hans Rawat's posts in the thread I mentioned: _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I have absolutely no reason to concoct such lies about anyone in fact I have many reason not to allow this information to get out. By speaking out against my parents, I am walking away from a promised multi million dollar inheritance! This is exactly the reason my brother who is also a sexual abuse victim of my parents is keeping silent or denying these allegations. yes my mother of course saw, and another
premie I remember. I won’t mention his name in this post. He was very close to
my father at the time but they drifted apart as most have. As far as I know he
is still in the cult. A few years ago I told a family member that this person
had witnessed the abuse first hand. It may have gotten back to him because
apparently a few weeks later I heard he had a stroke. I remember the incident
so clearly, I won’t get into details here but when my father started molesting
me infront of him, I looked over to see his reaction. He looked like he had
just seen a ghost. His face turned white as a sheet and his whole body
shuttered. I have no ill will toward him for not speaking up. People were
terrified of upsetting him for good reason. I will admit there was a time in my life that
I did use illegal drugs recreationally after the repressed memories of being
sexually abused by my parents resurfaced. I am certainly not proud of those
days but I look at it as a form of self medication at a time when I couldn’t
even talk to a a therapist about these issues. Thats how frozen inside I was.
For the record My father first gave me alcohol and cannabis when we lived in
Miami Beach, there were several premies who saw this. I was about 7 when we left
that house and never returned. Excerpted from a lengthier post:
Indoctrination is a lengthy process that
prays on the spiritually thirsty. Is a hungry bear a fool or gullible for
getting caught in a bear trap? Not at all. Trapping animals is tested and even
improved upon by one trapper to the next. In this case though its not animals
being trapped for their body. Its humans beings trapped for their mind and
soul. The biggest difference is that the animal knows right away when they are
trapped. The effectiveness of this particular human trap is that the victim may
never realize that they were trapped until the day they die. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ There are a number of hurtful/critical comments from Prem Rawat defenders directed at Hans in this thread. I know through a 3rd party that Hans and Shana are being subjected to shameless lies intended to discredit them. Please note that a recording exists in which Prem Rawat acknowledged his sexual abuse of Hans and one of his siblings.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 15:45:35
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Thank you so much @lakeshore for making these posts available (legible) to us. It is disgusting what these poor kids had to endure while still being kids. And, to make things worse, their own parents were the doers - so they were left completely alone in their misery.
As to DoJo, I had sent him a friend request several weeks ago, but never got an answer. What a pity. 
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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Although the "Uplifting message from Prem Rawat" post on Don Johnson's Facebook page remains, the comment post and replies I drew attention to have been deleted for an unknown reason. Consequently, Hans Rawat's posts that I quoted above no longer appear on Facebook.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 18:13:19
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I need to take a break.But a premie was hurling really vile insults at Hans. Quite similar to those lobbed at a Jagdeo survivor circa 2001-2002 or so.
I believe sometime in past hour or two she deleted her comment. That appears to have deleted all subsequent responses to her. Including Hans' quite eloquent and really measured responses considering the nature of what she was saying.
I can't find my responses to her either, so it appears that is what happened.
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I also want to thank JHB, the forum administrator, for sustaining this forum and everything else he's done.
As Hans' quotes, a transcript of Prem's recorded acknowledgement of his childhood sexual abuse of Hans and one of his siblings, and Anth's recollection recede into obscurity (I won't allow that to happen), I also want to acknowledge the spirit of the posters here as they continue to do what they've always done. I view the outpouring of posts in this and other recent threads as a rally of support for Hans and Shana.
As just occurred in these threads, it wouldn't surprise me if even more were to come out. As I mentioned earlier: if there's any honesty, decency and integrity to be found at the core of this cult, the time to demonstrate it is fast approaching.
As more and more people hear about this tragic reality.
As Prem Rawat embarks on another tour in March.
As Prem Rawat, in a transcript of a recording, throws India, his homeland, under the bus as a pathetic excuse for his apparent criminal behavior.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 10:24:38
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Lakeshore, can't help but think it wasn't so much throwing India under the bus as possibly a pretty accurate comment.
way back when I went looking for information on the sexual abuse of infants, I found a long article that I remember in that it had a lot of information in it, putting the practise into historical context. At the time of that article and I am going back over 25 years to when I read it, it was still common practise in South America to 'prove the virility' of your son to your relatives and friends. Going back into the mists of time the supposition was that it made the infant quiet and fall asleep which kept you safe from predatory danger.
the writer gave stories from every corner of the globe, the one that stuck was this poor Japanese man who's mother used to meet her friend in the park and swop stories about how horrible their husbands were and the angrier she got the harder she did it causing him a lot of pain.
Personally, I am suffering a bit at the moment. I just can't take the horrible people any more and yet I am having to deal with a truly obnoxious auto electrician in order to get my car registered - they have a monopoly in the area and when I took my car in he kept it all day and didn't even order the part they needed. I waited while the other one (both equally horrible) made the call turned out it was available at the local wreckers. They don't answer their phone, I had already had to drive there to make the appt, come back next week he says, when I ask, we'll phone you he says. I went to sleep upset and I woke up upset.
I mean it's not too serious a situation, and hopefully will be concluded by the end of the week but it makes me think more favourably about the giant gas planet that is due to collide with us any day now according to my conspiracy theorist friend. I have to admit it strikes me as a merciful yet fitting end.
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Lesley, I like you, you know that, and I don't like saying this, but I am absolutely appalled by what you just wrote.
Before you quote an article you read a long time ago without a source, consider that this, "its just cultural" thing has been used by other child sexual offenders. Are you going to tell me that Jagdeo was trembling as he abused us because he didn't know it was wrong? Child abuse is common in every culture and sadly remains common in ours. It is NOT a part of Hindu culture. It is absolutely is taboo in Hindu culture. (The gopi business is a load of crap too) And if he experienced this himself as a child, it is in NO WAY an excuse. It is common for child sexual abuse perpetrators to have been victims themselves. It remains a crime. And most survivors do NOT GO ON TO ABUSE ....
Someone said almost the same thing on Facebook, Joe found the source and made mincemeat out of this stupid and dangerous crapola.
JW- What a load of crap. You might want to consider the source of that 30-year old article, from IPT, an organization run by Ralph Underwager who built a career testifying on behalf of child molesters in court, and had to resign for writing for an outfit called "Paidka: The Journal of Paedophila" which is a pseudo-academic, pro-pedophila organization, which posits that pedophila is good for children. I suggest that Don Johnson delete your post because it posits dangerous misinformation, and perhaps you might have checked that out before putting it up.
JW to JL In addition to posting dangerous misinformation about pedophilia, if you weren't implying an excuse for Rawat's behavior, why did you post it at all?
Check out Keith Raniere on the subject too. I believe it was part of the closing arguments that put him away for 120 years.
https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Raniere-on-tape-Some-children-perfectly-happy-13998037.php
He absolutely threw India, where he just got the Guiness record for biggest crowd, under the bus. Recall, it's the same culture he blamed for all the misunderstandings about thinking he is the Lord of the Universe too. Seems a bit situational...
from Hindus on Reddit "The man is spouting nonsense. Hinduism doesn't allow or permit this. He is insulting Hinduism if he is using Hinduism as an excuse for his immoral and unethical behaviour. Claiming himself to be the reincarnation of Krishna, to be an Avatara of the great Lord Vishnu, this man, whoever he is, has no knowledge or understanding of Hinduism. There is no Hindu philosophy, text, or Scripture that allows this. As per Hinduism, his unethical and immoral Karma would cause his atman/soul to suffer for many births/lifetimes." "Report him to the police immediately" saying it was common India and not taboo.
"He was spewing bullshit. Another question is, if a man thinks he is the a reincarnation of Krishna, the current avatar of his time, and has many followers who think he is their guru and is a Master and like Krishna. If the man is married and has sex with his followers who call themselves Gopis would there be a scriptural justification for this? Would it not just be an abuse of power?
He is a criminal. There is no justification for his deed."
"Who is this person? Please name and shame and complain to police. That mf deserves to be in prison for his entire life. This is nowhere allowed in Hinduism, neither he can be incarnation of Krishna, because Krishna himself was an incarnation, so that thug is just fooling out the people, even worse that he raping, sexually assaulting. That's is one of biggest sins as per Hindu scriptures. So please, put him in jail before he do this to anyone else." "no a Avatar is usually self aware and has specific marks is able to summon Garuda and divine weapons at will just like Sri Krishna sexual abuse is at all not tolerate here infact here are separate hells for that a monk supposed to be celibate in action and thought by mandate" He has to be punished! Simple. "What he did is paap and apradh both!"
"The religion forbids sex unless it is with a married spouse for the sake of children. It encourages celibacy and detachment otherwise... If a guy did that kind of abuse in India - depending on the region, the person would have to surrender to the police to save himself from the mob. Indian hindus would see a person who claims to be krishna and frolics around with girls as a lunatic and fraud. A monk is expected to be celibate here by majority of the laity."
"Adding to this, do keep in mind, there was never any lustful relationship between Krishna and 'Gopi s'. They were just 8-10 year old kids when Krishna had to leave. He himself says that lust is also an attachment of mortality and like others needs to be removed to attain moksha."
"I think he’s thinking about bachbazi in Pakistan Anyway people like that should be executed by the state"
If any of the above is representative of what Hindu Indians really believe- I would say they are less tolerant. This is something akin to Noble Savage mythology so common in OUR culture.
Modified by Susan at Sun, Feb 18, 2024, 23:41:09
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two things.
1. All those responses were to a hypothetical similar situation posed on a Hinduism discussion board.
2. Lesley, I am harsh on the words, and the ideas, not you. I am in vehement disagreement and I know these ideas are out there. I think they really need to be called out.
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/accused-cult-leader-on-tape-some-children-perfectly-happy-having-sex-with-adults/28038155
Modified by Susan at Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 00:16:33
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Susan, I haven't finished reading your post yet but for heaven's sake what makes you think I am saying it's ok? If I said cannibalism has been widely practised in the past would you assume that meant I thought it was ok???
My view is that it helps to recognise it is relatively widespread, it doesn't make it any more acceptable, does it. Not one whit.
I do understand what you are saying about there being apologists - I thoroughly dislike that stuff and I do not believe the article I referred to was written from that stance.
Hope that helps.
Modified by lesley at Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 02:31:40
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Okay read the whole post now - tbh I would be most surprised if it turned out being a Hindu stopped the pedophilia. Since when did the church saying don't have sex stop people from having sex?
Oh, well yes okay it stopped me but that's because it was in combination with being married to a man who didn't actually want to have sex with me while pretending that he did.
A lot of sexual abuse happens in the corner of our eye. It's often difficult to see it let alone talk about it. Almost subconscious but very strong feelings.
I've watched someone protecting his young son from his own father speaking out loud with a lot of emotion and yet neither he or the grandfather appeared aware of it having happened, just continuing on with the day.
According to that old article I read and I think it said the same in the new one recently linked here - incest is the most common child molesting and that gets divided into two - those who only do their children and those who also do others.
Hans must have a lot on his plate right now, it's heartbreaking to think of him when he was little and all that happening under our noses, I am wishing him all the best.
Modified by lesley at Mon, Feb 19, 2024, 15:11:45
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Thanks. I doubt it's much better at stopping it than Catholicism was.
The rationalizations any abuser makes, the most common one I read is that they "love" the child and the world doesn't understand. They truly disgust me.
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yes could not agree more. Particularly when you see the pedophile priests on the news.
Years ago I saw footage on the tv of a pedophile being interviewed and saying that he loves the children and they love him, he seemed to believe he loved the children better than anyone else could. It made my skin crawl.
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Life's gristle eh Lesley! I hope your car situation gets sorted. Any sniff of power and some people become bullies. There is an official council chap at our local waste landfill site who delights in sending you back home again - car full of rubbish - because the paperwork to prove that you are local is not quite right in some detail - although he knows full well that I am. All things must pass.
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thanks Tommo, horrible man at the local landfill, it doesn't bear doing the maths at how much upset these people cause in one day let alone a month.
I think I have come up with a good strategy, I mean it's obvious he isn't going to ring and I will need to go there and make an appt so add a bit of psychological muscle by asking a friend to come with me when I go.
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