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Hope no one will think because of the seriousness of forum lately we can’t talk about the many other ways he manipulated us
Video from Prem bio but I can’t find the link.
For you not Americans today is Super Bowl. I will be sure the repost it for the World Cup too.
Modified by Susan at Sun, Feb 11, 2024, 21:58:49
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"Thousands of people here and there, go sit down in a football game. Oh Guru Maharaji, there's all your little creatures that you made one day. And it's like that is not going to, that's not going to please Guru Maharaji's heart to see these dumb creatures that he made on a dumb day to sit there and watch a dumb thing happen."
Prem Rawat a/k/a Guru Maharaji
I was in a cult.
I don't recall him saying that specifically, but I was there when he said it. I also made sure it was repeated to a large audience when I selected that video as the feature presentation at nightly "satsang."
I'm sure I cheered when he said it. Just like I cheered when he disparaged marriage, children, education, careers, jobs, bosses and so many other things; anything that might distract even the slightest attention from him. Just like I cheered when, soon after a rat was discoverd in a batch of Coca Cola, he compared those things to Coca Cola and mocked me for loving them so much that I'd "suck the rat" to get every last drop.
Just like I cheered when he said "the whole world is heading in one direction and I am the only one heading in the opposite direction." I even cheered when, after living under a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience to him for nearly ten years and long after he was fully steeped in western materialism, he blamed his over-the-top narcissism and grossly sociopathic world view on his eastern upbringing. He could have said anything and I would have cheered. Actually, I did that, too. I cheered when he mocked me (and humanity by extension) by implying that I was so confused that I'd think a cookie with sh*t (a metaphore for all those things) baked into it was the best cookie ever. Or the time I gleefully repeated one of his jokes in which the punchline was a doctor saying "you're not eating properly" to a patient who shoved a vegetable up his... It had to be funny because he told it.
I was in a cult.
I'm not anymore and so I watched the Superbowl. Along with over 200 million others and over 60% of my countrymen. I enjoyed it. My team (except for the Detroit Lions who came so close) won. I enjoyed Patrick, Travis, Taylor, Usher and his highly talented and accomplished guests.
Modified by lakeshore at Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 10:21:44
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I post something I think is just a ludricous laugh. You really got to heart of all that is really wrong with his Perfect Ludicrous Arrogance.
So glad you brought such insight to it.
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Hans Jayanti 1979
When we cannot have an experience 24 hours, when we cannot have an experience 24 hours then truly and sincerely what is the difference between us and a little doggy? A little puppy? You know I guess even that little puppy is lucky sometimes because every timer it wants food it thinks of its Master, you know, every time haha I don't know, it does all those things, it thinks of its Master. And yet, do we? Do we think of our Master? Are we really faithful, faith, are we truly faithful to Guru Maharaj Ji? Have we, you know, what what what are we tryin' to do? Are we tryin' to repay Guru Maharaj Ji? With all the things that we do, are we tryin' to repay Guru Maharaj Ji? How can we repay Guru Maharaj Ji? What do you give Guru Maharaj Ji to repay Guru Maharaj Ji? What? What conceivably, what possibly can you give? Except that love, except this life, except being just really a premie. That's what Guru Maharaj Ji wants is a premie. If Guru Maharaj Ji didn't want premies then there is this whole world right? Thousands of people here and there. Go sit down in a football game, "Oh Guru Maharaj Ji there's all your little creatures that you made one day." And it's like that, it's not gonna, that's not gonna please Guru Maharaj Ji's heart to see these dumb creatures that he made on a dumb day to sit there and watch a dumb thing happen, kicking around a little football or whatever. That's it, I mean, look at it, these guys you know they really try to get good at that football and they go out there and they practice and they practice and they practice and they practice and they practice and they practice and they practice and I mean even of all those people only a few are selected to make a team and then they're lectured upon it and they practice every day and then for entertainment, you know, there is these big arenas I mean you know just like where the program was held in New Orleans was this big Superdome. It's bigger than Astrodome, supposedly and we were not, we weren't occupying the whole thing just a fraction of it on the side and I walked in there, it's enough to make you feel dizzy it's so big, it's huge, I mean it's just gigantic and yet what is it for? To come and to get entertained.
You know, to them what was justified in a minute, what was justified becomes all of a this is why it's a dream, it's justified that all this is a dream because for what one second is real for another second isn't real. For one second what is true, the other second isn't true. It reminds me of this one joke, I heard a long, long time ago, you know. There was this one guy (rubs nose a lot) and one day (laughs) I don't know how to even tell you this joke. One day I guess he got his finger, you know, messed up not hurt or anything just messed up in some doo doo whatever you'd say it and so he came into the village and he said (rubs nose), "You know what happened today, I got my finger all messed up you know in the doo" and there was this one guy there said "Oh my God I can't understand that, if that was me, that would happen to me, I'd cut off my finger. You know washing just isn't good enough." And so 2 days go by and the same thing happens to this guy too, this time he's still got it on his finger and he walks like this (holds his arm our straight) through the whole village on his way to the ironsmith to get it cut off. And he walks all the way over to the ironsmith and he doesn't wanna even look at it and he puts his finger on the little table of the ironsmith and says "Pick up your hatchet and cut my finger off." And the ironsmith looks a little moody nature, a little funny guy so what he did, he turned the hatchet the other way and instead of slamming it on his finger, he just slammed it right next to his finger and it made a big bang noise, it didn't hit him, just made a big bang noise and he thought his finger was cut (laughs) off and so he took his finger and stuck it in his mouth and said "Ouch!" you know. For one moment this guy was ready to get his finger cut off and the other moment "Ouch!" and nothing had happened his finger was just still intact and full of it too. (laughter) And I sincerely hope that's all it is, is a joke not the real thing you know I guess a gruesome twosome
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“the program was held in New Orleans was this big Superdome. It's bigger than Astrodome, supposedly and we were not, we weren't occupying the whole thing just a fraction of it on the side and I walked in there, it's enough to make you feel dizzy it's so big, it's huge, I mean it's just gigantic and yet what is it for? To come and to get entertained”
Glad you pulled out the context it makes it even more telling.
Also Prem Rawat makes a ton of jokes about asses, anuses and defecation.
Was he saying dogs are lucky they think of their master when they shit?
Is he comparing the sort of master he is to a dog and his master? Oops.
On a serious note- this was and is a cult rife with coercive control. The fact his peace education program found its way into a domestic violence court is appalling to me.
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1. Where was that quote when there was all those debates between exes an premies about whether he said he was god and the premies were doing logical somersaults? I never indulged in that as I thought it was a bit silly and also I think he said much worse things anyway.
2. What a champion bullsh33ter he is. If you think about professional musicians or standup comics who have so much practice on stage that they just get really good at what they do. And then you think about the old days of satsang, where mahatmas and initiators also got really good at their improv spiritual riffing. I hated giving satsang back then. I was petrified. But now, in my subsequent career I have become pretty good at spontaneous presentation and speaking, sometimes on a big stage. Also just years of practice and developing self-confidence.
So Rawat has been practicing since he was a child. What he does is not just the satsang of his followers. It is that kind of pseudo-philosophical and spiritual riffing as well, but also this extra BS quality of just coming up with wild stuff like this one about football and his magic powers. Even now where he is basically telling people how the universe works with supreme authority. It is a skill, though a really dark one. Too bad he didn't put his efforts into becoming a comedian instead. We'd all be better off today.
Modified by aunt bea at Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 10:18:10
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I went through a phase of being called on to do satsang pretty frequently, so I had some practice at being in front of a crowd making stuff up.
Around that time, I was due to present my final project as a 3rd year student. It might have helped if I had put some time into doing the project instead of hitching round Europe going to events. So, even though I did hardly any work and had nothing to say, I figured my best chance was to bluff it - after all, that's exactly what I'd been doing in satsang so often.
When my turn came to make my presentation, I got up in front of lots of students and some of my tutors, and realised I'd made a terrible mistake. There's some stuff you can make up, and then there's stuff you can't. So I stood there, saying nothing at all, until the head of department took pity on me and came up on the stage and led me off.
If only my all knowing Perfect Master had known some microbiology, and could have fed me some lines.
One of my most embarrassing memories.
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I can sympathize with your predicament. Satsang was the breeding ground for a whole lot of BS. I remember hearing one of the leading "satsang givers" in my community confess to me years later that he made up so much of his inspiring satsangs...hearing symphonies, merging into a thousand suns etc....all made up.....Prem has a few different strategies for that type of situation if you ever find yourself in one again and need a little "satsang BS": 1-give yourself an imposing title first, before addressing the crowd, like "the living perfect______". Just fill in the blank, depending on the situation. No one will dare question you about your credentials with a vague, yet powerful title like that. 2-It doesn't hurt to get into a little "historical revisionism". For instance, you could preface everything with "many perfect____'s" have come before, but none really got the job done....while they're chewing on that one, just give your presentation, wait for some applause, wave your hands and exit stage... 3-say something inane, pause for a long time to look profound, then move on. Keep it general and banal. so banal in fact, that the audience will feel that they must have missed something profound, because what you just said is so simple and stupid, and they'll blame themselves for the misunderstanding....keep 'em guessing, it works every time... 4-threaten them with vague references, like "if you don't believe me and stop the practice of _____(your choice here), your mind will be like a truck full of rotting vegetables in the mid day sun.....or you'll shatter into a thousand pieces.... 5-about 3/4 of the way through your discourse, you could thunder at the audience "who are you to question_______"(once again, your choice). Warning-you might want to practice this one a few times in the mirror or in front of some friends to make sure you have the right intonation etc.Not everyone can pull that one off right away....better get a little practice in first...
In summary, prem rawat has given us a rich reservoir of tricks that might help you out sometime, if you have the need to BS anyone....I'm sure other exes have a few they could recommend as well...
6-BONUS-You could have your partner come out and kiss your feet and put a crown on your head, while you wave your hands and flail around on stage. I would caution you to get a little practice in first before attempting this one...it could backfire if not done correctly with the right stage hands, lighting, music etc...
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that could have worked quite well - oh it's not that he hasn't done the homework, he's got stage fright. 
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It’s not just satsang though I can relate to that too. It’s also broadly the experience of people who leave cults and apply the cult template to the outside world.
In the years after I left, I became a Bradley teacher (as Premies will do, when Prem and Marolyn took Bradley classes and it was the favoured method of natural childbirth education in the cult). The “education” to be a teacher was a weekend seminar, book home study ( and not much and mostly very biased books) and a narrative test the Bradley (tm) folks signed you off on (and took your check). Guess what, your husband didn’t have to even do that he just had to be your husband to be a Certified Childbirth Educator! I am absolutely serious that was the standard. I was pretty into it but also vaguely disquieted. I think I saw the culty but didn’t realize how outside the norm this was.
Later, I wanted to become a certified nurse-midwife. I recognized I wanted a university education the have the life and death responsibility being a midwife entails. First step was nursing school. I was a labor and delivery RN my whole career. Once I became a nurse, though I loved the nurse-midwives I worked with, I didn’t want to work all night and I enjoyed caring for all sorts of mothers, not just low-risk moms. I really loved my work. Lucky. I know many don’t get that in life.
Anyway I too cringe at how little I knew and was “educating” other parents. I jumped through Bradley’s hoops. But I can assure you looking back I absolutely cringe at how low those hoops were. I didn’t do it long but still I cringe. And I am sure I will offend some, though some of it was good, much of it was more indoctrination in my opinion than education. Going back to school and working was the single best post cult therapy I ever did.
It’s got some parallels to your story.
Modified by Susan at Mon, Feb 12, 2024, 15:30:32
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Yes, back to school. My wife, who was exiting her own cult when I was leaving mine, started a module on one of her further education courses on 'critical thinking'.
Just that phrase got me thinking. Critical as in important, or critical as in making judgements? Either way, or both, it was basic stuff - should be taught in schools - who is saying what and why? What context are they viewing things from? What other ways are there of looking at the same thing? What evidence is available to support what is being said? And so on. It triggered many small revelations and a few bigger ones, every day - it was like bowling down skittles, and we could hardly miss. Assumptions we'd made. Accepted wisdom taken on board uncritically. Wishful thinking. Lack of research. Obvious biases. It became obvious that there were other biases, but closer to home, and harder to see. And that this uncovering of things wasn't a dissembling phase we were going through, but a new way of going ahead - deeper and far more interesting and not too predictable.
And yet still, I sometimes see a fragment of that cult template at work. It won't go away. I used to see things differently as a kid, and different again in the cult, and now different again, but I remember many of the older ways.
It's not all bad, but it's handy to remember which glasses you've got on.
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Without exaggerating, your post took my breath away. It was so absorbing that I tensed-up and stopped breathing for a moment. I wish it had more exposure.
Two things come to mind. First, not that I'd ever try, but I know I'll never be able to pull the wool over your eyes!  Secondly, I'm sure you remember recommending "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman. Not only does his book reflect much of what you said in your post, but I still try to apply it to my everyday experiences.
One of his themes is WYSIATI (What You See Is All There Is). Not! The book explains cognitive bias, i.e., how the brain sees something and serves up a plausible explanation (white glove, silver platter and all) in millionths of a second based on past experience and (limited to) what we see... and how we typically accept it without thinking. The problem is that all too often, it's wrong.
(Blame the cat for the toppled plant on the floor. It never occurred to me that it was sitting next to an open window during yesterday's thunderstorm... and so on. It's particularly apparent in all the things Flying Solo blames me for... and me of her. )
Why? Not because the brain is flawed, but because taking the time to investigate further - to think! - is one of the most physically strenuous things that occurs in our body. That's why people in non-physical jobs that require a lot of thought are often stressed-out and physically exhausted at the end of the day.
(It just occurred to me that that may partially explain why meditation, not thinking, "peace of mind," don't bother doubting or asking questions, etc., is so alluring.)
And so the brain compensates. It takes shortcuts, i.e., human beings are genetically predisposed to avoid deep thinking. In fact, that book caused me to coin the phrase "lazy brain syndrome," largely a result of my repetitive self-diagnosing.
Thank you!
And the part about your wife leaving another cult at the same time... phew!
Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 09:44:41
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(two can play at that game Bob)
I'm glad that book had such an impact! Me too. Must have read it 10 years ago or so. I've read a pile of books since, but that one still strikes me as the most important, the most fundamental. I think of it often, and now you've mentioned it, well, I have 6 weeks near solitude coming up, so I think I'll put that back on the reading list.
Modified by 13 at Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 09:25:38
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My daughter gave it to me a while back and keeps bugging me to finish it so we can "discuss". I guess I will have to do that.
But if you need something else to read in your solitude, I can recommend "Behave" by Robert Sapolsky. Really any book by him. I love him. He is part time neurobiologist at Stanford and part time primatologist (studies baboons). Then we can "discuss." He has a new book coming out now called "Determined, Life Without Free Will."
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"Determined, Life Without Free Will." I have no idea what that book will be about and no point to make, but the title instantly stirred-up a memory.
Soon after Prem Rawat put me out on the road with no job, no money, no car and nothing but a tattered suitcase half full of His holy photos, magazines and foot water, I took a job as a foot messenger at a large law firm doing walkers and drivers. My second week on the job, a Sr. partner and a young associate needed someone to chauffer them into Manhattan for a big closing and I volunteered.
After the successful closing, they wanted to celebrate at one of NYC's finest steak houses... me still being a vegetarian and, well, a premie fresh out of the ashram premie. (My first fish in nearly a decade was pretty good.) Over martini's, me with my water, they got into a heated debate over determined/no free will versus self-determination/free will. The Sr. partner argued for determined/no free will and the upstart argued that of course we have free will and self-determination over our destiny. After a lengthy back and forth, the Sr. partner leaned over the table and said to the upstart:
"Listen! (he might as well have added "you little squirt" ) I'm a Sr. partner and I know you want to make partner someday. If I don't want you to become a partner, then there's no way in hell that it will ever happen. Got that!? So much for your self-determination!"
They ordered yet another as we moved on to desert. Fortunately, the ride home was quiet as they both slept it off. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
PS, after I wrote that, I began to reflect on how naive, inadequate, immature and ill-prepared I was to re-engage in the real world when the ashrams closed. I can't even put into words how much I clutched the "sword of his Knowledge and the shield of his grace" - like a pacifier or a security blanket - just to make it through days like that as I desperately tried to conceal my differences and appear normal. The degree of mental and emotional stunting that occurred throughout that heavy devotional era was enormous.
Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 10:00:52
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Hehe, I was also a premie foot messenger for a while. I was supposed to be a motor-bike messenger, but they didn't have a bike yet. So I was meant to use taxis till my new bike arrived.
The office was place that generated ads, in the days long before Photoshop etc, and the people would cut up images and paste them on top of each other then photocopy their work to produce the ads. I was meant to take the ads to the relevant newspaper printers.
Only, there were hardly any messages. Busy day, maybe 3-4. So I had nothing to do. So I sat in the corner, cross-legged and meditated. They didn't seem to mind. When I was sent to deliver a message, I soon found out that the distances weren't that long, and I could run it faster than a taxi could get there. So I pocketed the taxi fares on top of my wage, and spent many hours a day meditating.
By the time the place had bought me a motor-bike, I had enough money to get to the new event, so I was gone...
I suspect they thought they'd hired a lunatic.
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That is a good story. I totally agree how life as a premie and especially ashram premie seriously stunted emotional and mental growth. It is something that is hard for someone who has not experienced that to understand. I remember very clearly that when I made my first non-premie friends how wise and thoughtful they seemed to me. I was so far behind.
About the book, it is not out yet, but knowing the author as I do, I think I know the gist of it. He is really interested in understanding the biological causes of behaviour and especially not getting trapped in one bucket (one particular field of study which can become uncritical dogma) and seeing the bigger picture. There is a great TEDTalk which I can link to, where he explains how a single action is caused by neural activity from seconds ago, hormonal activity from hours ago, patterns from days ago, and on and on until you get back to millions of years of evolution.
He gives a specific example in one of his books about epilepsy. In the middle ages this would have been thought to be caused by demon possession but it is still the fault of the person because the let the demon in. So he talks about the so called imaginary homunculus in our heads that is like another person that decides things.
But as science advances, this homunculus gets continually smaller, because we learn the real cause of behaviour to the inevitable point where it just doesn't exist. Ultimately we are all products of the genetics that made us and what the world has made us into. We all started out more or less as innocent babies.
The argument is not that the universe is all predetermined or predictable per se. There may be aspects of randomness or unpredictability as quantum mechanics suggests. But that people and the decisions they make are products of all that has made them. This addresses the idea that we should be careful about judging people and especially dehumanising them, because all behaviour any human is within the spectrum of human behaviour. We wouldn't have to have a commandment that says, "do not kill", if people were not in the habit of killing already. Of course the paradox is that the tendency to dehumanise people is also part of human behaviour. But for myself I try to avoid that and especially saying someone is evil or disgusting. (By the way, the most violent primate besides us is the chimpanzee, our closest cousin. That should tell us something)
I hope that makes sense. I have been caught lately with the dilemma of dealing with the new revelations of Prem Rawat. My intellect says the above, but of course I can't help but feeling he is evil. In the end though, he too was just a baby and I am sure his life growing up really sucked in many ways and made him into the sociopath or whatever it is he turned out to be. Probably a lot of factors there that I can't even speculate on since I don't know him other than the persona on the stage and what has been described.
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If Ultimately we are all products of the genetics that made us and what the world has made us into. We all started out more or less as innocent babies.
Then wouldn't we have started out as more or less innocent?
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Yes, I'd be interested to hear what Susan has seen with all the babies she's witnessed being born.
I think you can say babies are innocent of the wider experience of the world but I don't think that means they are all nice does it.
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All newborns are innocent.
Really a newborn can't be "nice" or "not nice" they haven't developed a capacity to interact with the world in that way.
You probably mean you have met manipulative children or very grumpy babies, but whenever it is that a child can exhibit concerning behavior toward others it simply isn't at birth.
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yes, fully understood - I suppose I was wondering if there was an individual feeling from the baby.
I have not seen lots of newborns. I have seen lots of small children. I have seen more than one 2 year old careening down a slope and knocking into another child. Usually it is accidental, or an impulse of fun or wanting to say hello. One child I saw deliberately lining up the child it felt entirely calculated - if I run now as hard as I can I can head-butt him hard enough to hurt before anyone can stop me.
Then I've seen a 5 year old on a skateboard messing around on his skateboard in front of the kiosk, they were waiting for their parents to come and pick them up and the girl was a bit little to be left alone so I was keeping an eye on them and I saw him quite deliberately drive into his little sister's head where she lay on the ground - but you know it didn't feel malicious in intent. More investigative - what will happen if I do this (she cried). He didn't take pleasure from hurting her, he was just bored.
I've seen a ten month old take pleasure from hurting his father, ouch.
Some people will laugh at the sight of someone slipping on a banana peel but there might be another who has a light in their eye, that small smile of satisfaction because they were the one who planted the banana peel.
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If we are so pre-determined, aren't all of us crusties just as innocent as babies?
Wasn't me, it's the way I'm made...
Which sounds like I'm taking the piss out of the pre-determined notion, but I'm not.
If free will is an illusion, then there are no ethics. We're just watching the show unfold.
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And I can only recommend you watch Sapolsky's TEDTalk. By the way, I didn't mean to highjack the thread and go totally off topic. At least for me, this is on topic though, considering what is coming out now.
Sapolsky is definitely not saying anything goes. He is saying the opposite. We homo sapiens are very complex. Part of that is the ability to project possibilities into the future thanks to our prefrontal cortex. So we create ethics to essentially protect ourselves and our societies from our worst tendencies. A big point of his is that we should focus more on understanding the biology behind human best (altruistic) behaviour and encourage that in a more scientific systematic way.
The part about pre-determination is about the way we humans, as part of our developed ethics, dehumanise members of our species who have outlier behaviour. That is a religious approach rather than a scientific approach. All human behaviour is human. There are no demons.
So if someone commits a terrible crime, of course that needs to be condemned, but the person is still human and to the extent that we can, we should try to prevent that crime from happening again. Sometime people can be rehabilitated. Sometimes we don't know how. But we can at least prevent others from doing that crime in the future.
A lot of this has to do with child abuse by the way. There is a certain gene variation that will bring out psychopathic behaviour, but only if the person was abused as a child. That is what epigenetics is about. That the gene gets activated. Crazy stuff, but that is how we work. So that is at least one part of the very complex equation why some people who are abused as children will become criminal or abusers is some way and others (most others) not.
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I was just messing with the idea. Free will, and culpability would maybe require some kind of agency beyond the physical causations, and as you say, the more we discover about how we work, the smaller this 'homonculus' gets.
I've got hold of a couple of Sapolsky's books in audio format, and I'm looking forward to listening to them in a few weeks time, when I'll have plenty of opportunity.
I did genetics at uni, and it was a lot to take in! Then they recognised epigenetics and the complexity just increased again.
It's come so far in the last 40 years, of course. My daughter is doing eDNA research. At the moment, she's got a project on dealing with curlews. Curlews are in quick decline in the UK, and some have been tagged with geo-location tags to track them. The scientists keep finding tags beside scraps of curlew bodies, and it's down to my daughter to analyse the DNA on the tag to try to identify what ate the curlew. I've asked her to explain her work to me, but she just smiles enigmatically. I think she thinks it's beyond me. I think she might be right.
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How this whole business of "Be Here Now" or the only thing that is real is your momentary experience is just so wrong from a biological point of view.
The whole magic of our prefrontal cortex is that it enables us to project multiple future possibilities and then consider what outcomes are most promising. That is what separates us from all or most other species.
People who have damaged prefrontal cortexes, and I know someone who has, do in a sense live in the present like a Buddha. The problem though is that they have difficulty with impulse control, can't manage money, can't hold a job or relationship and for struggle to live an independent and happy life as we humans would define that.
The fact that some religious philosophies focus on this point is interesting. Because they are right that it is uniquely human at least as far as we know, but also it is exactly what defines our humanity. Just that it can also cause suffering. When a zebra is chased by a lion, its sympathetic nervous system kicks in, the thing we call stress, to help it survive. It's digestive system stops, its blood pressure and heart beat increase, all so that it can run faster. But in 10 minutes it is either dead or it has survived and then its nervous system goes back to normal.
With humans, that same sympathetic nervous system can kick in for things that haven't even occurred because we are projecting into the future. So our amazing brain can also cause us unnecessary stress and even physical problems like high blood pressure and stomach problems. Even sickness because our immune system shuts down.
But of course we can't demonise our brains. They are doing what they should. We just need to learn to cope better. It is a blessing and a curse though. The zebra will not project that if it goes in a certain area of a savanna it will probably get chased by lions, but at the same time it doesn't really worry about it either. So it lives a low stress life but makes for a quicker dinner.
Just thought that would be interesting to post here. The person I know who has this problem is very close to me but I don't want to go into detail about it obviously.
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That description of someone with a damaged pre-frontal cortex reminds me of me and many other premies back in the day.
When I quit the cult, a premie friend, who was pretty disappointed with me, said, well, on the upside, I've noticed that when people ex, they generally start making some money.
He was right for me anyway. I made plans for beyond the immediate future, and some of that worked. In fact, I realised one day that I had an old agreement with that same friend that I'd lazily let lapse, but it was worth £100k. He paid up, perhaps a little ruefully.
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Sapolsky is popping up on my youTube feed a lot recently, for some reason (maybe the new book). And just a couple of days ago, I turned on a podcast (Leading) to find that he was the special guest. That interview is about an hour long and is eminently listenable. He's an engaging conversationalist: humorous, erudite and insightful. And fascinating when he's talking within his own wheelhouse of baboon culture and why it is such a good analog for human culture.
On the other hand, a few years ago I read a book called Sex at Dawn, which argued that humans are just as closely related to bonobos as they are to chimps, and the former live in peaceful, matriarchal sex-filled societies. So if chimps come across a new troupe, they will kill them or run away, while the bonobos are much more sensible, and instead have a sex orgy. I don't know which of these two are a better analog for humans, chimps or bonobos, but the bonobo thesis at least explains why men have such big penises. (In fact, as I recall, in the book there is a whole chapter on relative penis size and ejaculate volume among primates.)
What Sopolsky had to say about politics and free will is more controversial, so I won't go there. Except to say that Sam Harris is also in the No Free Will camp. On the other hand, Sam's fellow horseman Dan Dennett and most philosophy professors are on the other side of that issue.
Here is a relatively accessible article arguing that we do in fact have free will, by any sensible definition of the term, by atheist philosopher and historian Richard Carrier, for anyone who is interested. There is also on Carrier's site, a summary of the feud between Harris and Dennett on this topic (and why Harris is wrong).
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/17340
Carrier's punchy, polemical style isn't for everyone.
Nevertheless, I would recommend his book, Sense & Goodness Without God, to any ex who feels a spiritual or philosophical vacuum after abandoning the Ji, or indeed for anyone who wants to see what a pretty fully worked out materialistic world view looks like.
rgj
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I don't normally click on links about 'big dicks', but I made an exception here.
Richard Carrier seems to approach this free will business in a very down to earth, facts is facts manner, but it doesn't address this question I have -
You could imagine a big bang maybe starting everything off, particles and energy zooming about and interacting with each other. Like a gigantic billiard table. But with billiards, I think it's generally recognised that if you hit a ball with a certain force and direction, it will go at a predictable speed in a predictable direction and if it hits another ball, the resulting speed and direction of each ball can be calculated. So, if we had a big enough computer to keep track of everything, we could predict everything.
Of course we don't have such a big computer - it would arguably have to be bigger than the universe it is keeping track of - so our predictions are limited. (There are some who say the universe IS a big computer, running a simulation...).
Anyway, my point is, never mind whether or how we could keep track of everything - if people could exert free will beyond the constraints of direct causation, do something their genetics and upbringing and environment didn't dictate, then where could that impulse come from? Aunt Bea referred to the homunculus, the little person inside of us sitting there deciding and controlling stuff.
I guess we'd have to accept a 'spirit' world, which interacts with and affects the 'real' world. But the only evidence for that would be miracles, events inexplicably disconnected from the normal causative forces.
I'm waiting.
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(love her voice)
The direct and ultimate causation of the big bang responsible for the lineage and mutations of my ancient DNA over the course of eons, including but not limited to the genetic lottery and alien tinkering (subject to the same of course), in conjunction with acquired behavioral patterns and subsequent modifications resulting from physical interactions throughout my existence, and especially current meteorological conditions including but not limited to barametric pressure and - I can't emphasize this enough - gravitational forces... have all culminated in compelling my brain to manipulate my fingertips in such a way as to type:
Congratulations! Your post comes across as a masterclass mini-dissertation on the intersection of physics, biology and philosophy. It adds that Aunt Bea's captivating Sapolsky clip informs much of what I've typed. It's also handy because it lends desperately needed support every time I tell Flying Solo that "it's not my fault!" Thank you for that!
(hmm... the homunculus made me do it. I wonder if that'll work.)
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Feb 16, 2024, 04:55:56
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And so after just as many eons, atoms hammered together in the centre of stars on giant anvils, particles flung about in cosmic explosions, some of them coalescing into this corner of the universe, and after trillions and trillions of collisions and reactions and combinations, here I am, and looking halfway round a planet, going cor blimey, neurons firing in a similar way to mine - after all these billions of years, and all that journey through mystery and improbability, echoes and familiarity all over the place.
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I guess we'd have to accept a 'spirit' world, which interacts with and affects the 'real' world. But the only evidence for that would be miracles, events inexplicably disconnected from the normal causative forces.
Maybe you could benefit from busying yourself with the latest (or at least: not too old) findings about the quantum field?
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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Well I just read the article - can't say I didn't think he's a bit up himself but I really liked the way he was able to say so strongly what free will is and stick up for it with such respect.
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I always love your posts and I want to love this one to but somehow I don't get it. You lost me when you start talking about the cult template.
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Thanks.
I used the phrase cult template as Susan used it. I was thinking perhaps, for what I meant, the phrase cult framing might be a better description. But I thought what Susan was saying was pretty close to what I was thinking so I kept her phrase.
I meant that you could lose the belief system from your cult, but still retain some of the ways of seeing and responding as if those beliefs were still there.
It wasn't a big step to conclude that Prem Rawat isn't a Satguru, and not much of a step to add that there is no such thing as a Satguru. You could dump all the obvious big fat stupid concepts of the cult and still harbour uncritical beliefs in say the inherent good in each of us that just needs uncovering, ideas that were probably in us culturally before the cult but were reinforced in our time there.
In the cult I learned to suppress my own confidence in some things, as if being confident was actually hiding away our true nature which was vulnerability. It is possible after all, to acknowledge the tiny small speckiness of our little selves and still be really, really good at maths. I hid the maths for a long time, long enough to become not so great at it any more. I looked for the best in people and I put my trust in some that I shouldn't have gone near. Naivety perhaps, but I think cultivated by the cult (don't trust your mind) and even when you try to exercise some judgement, it goes against the grain. A mind suppressed by years of cultivated naivety and wishful thinking doesn't become suddenly razor sharp as soon as you dump the guru.
Hence the great appreciation of Mr Kahneman's forensic analysis. Sapolsky looks interesting too. If I read them both, that might be my final act of imagined free will. Thanks for the recommendation. It would be very nice to "discuss" one day.
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One definition of a template-
“something that establishes or serves as a pattern”
It’s very useful to read the experiences of other people leaving cults. Almost all describe very similar issues with reintegrating into the wider world.
In my example, I missed the sense of community in the cult. I missed, I believe, the feeling of being “special” and knowing something everyone should know, that came with being a premie. I hadn’t really, learned the lesson that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
So like thinking an impromptu unprepared speech in class will be well received- I believed without much evidence at all that a small group of people knew a heck of a lot more about childbirth than people who had degrees, studied research with the skills to interpet research, and had vast experience. There is a huge attraction of special knowledge, and no doubt the failures of health care that are very real contribute to people being vulnerable to “secret” and easy beliefs. Not so different from the 1970s and the 2020s being very confusing times to live in making folks vulnerable to what is coined “Conspirituality”.
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The way I see it, the way I saw things as a kid, that was normal, then the religious beliefs of the cult screwed me up and when I exited it was back to normal.
I knew there was still a boggy patch in my world picture which I came to recognise was because I was married to someone who liked to mess with my reality, but basically it was back to earth at that point.
I am older now but no change from that basic sense of things since. I still think the most solid confirmation is where it's congruent with other species.
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Well there this microbe --er you know -- and it's just so amazing. Because it has this thing --called life -- and its got DNA, RNA, proteins and all these components -- and --by his grace -- all these parts -- they just work together -- connected by that harmony --and its all alive --just like you and me --but so tiny that you can only see it -- with a really really powerful microscope ---and then all these parts --even smaller ---and can you even imagine --- the creator -- that word, that energy -- the same thing making all these little parts dance --dance to his magic ---dance to that one tune -- that -- by his kindness -- Guru Maharaji has really let us feel -- there within us ...etc,
I don't really see your problem 13 -- with all that training you should have aced it?
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I just feel alive, somehow.
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" What a champion bullsh33ter he is... And then you think about the old days of satsang, where mahatmas and initiators also got really good at their improv spiritual riffing."
I've often thought the same thing. Prem Rawat had nearly sixty years to hone his improv skills schtick and he's not that good at it given all his practice and experience.
And where are all those saffron-robed mahatmas? There may have been a few true believers, but for the most part they must've felt like circus monkeys or trained seals performing on que for a peanut or a little piece of fish... as if the entire entourage was a traveling circus. The bai's who hit me up for fine silk blouses, new Lark luggage and fancy shoes out of ashram funds. Those routine shopping sprees became an entitlement on nearly all mahatma/initiator tour stops. (Or the one who saw a sister's blow dryer and just took it saying "I need this." )
It reminds me of the look of utter contempt and disgust Charnanand gave me when I caught him alone in a public men's room right after he finished one of his bhajan sets. My overwhelming gut reaction was that he was contemptuous of what he had to do for room, board and free golf, and contemptuous of me for being a sucker who helped create the market for his act. It was as if he was in there trying to cleanse himself of something.
Your post caused me to imagine a smokey room full of those types back in India sitting around a hookah yucking it up as they made-up parables, one-liners and bhajan lyrics for their improv spiritual riffing road shows. "Good one! HA HA HA!" (Den of thieves comes to mind.) And to think I took pride in repeating them in my own repertoire; the one about this and the one about that.
I'm sure they all had their ways of decompressing after their performances... after immersing themselves in so much bullsh3t, and I'm sure it wasn't meditation. Just look at the barrels full of empty liquor bottles out behind Prem's residence out behind his backstage residence at Amaroo.
Lastly, I'm always mindful of how a premie would likely react to my words. I'm sure I don't need to cite examples. It just goes to show how wide the gap is. However cynical my words may sound, it pales in comparison to Prem Rawat's cynicism as it relates to the gap between is public image and his deplorable behavior behind the curtain.
Thanks Aunt Bea. You nailed it... again.
Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Feb 13, 2024, 08:30:12
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Smokey room, hehe. Good insights. I was lucky not to have to spend much time with the initiators back then. Once I had to take care of Jagdeo for some reason, or maybe he kind of just dragged me into making his breakfast. I have to say, not knowing all the things we know today about him, I immediately got creeped out by him.
The only one I ever spent time with was Diego, who somehow clung to me. Maybe because I wasn't so fawning or something. I liked him though and I didn't have to buy him stuff. On the contrary, he was brought up super upper class and I think he liked that I could never be upper class no matter how hard I tried. I remember him saying that he had to learn how to eat normal food because his mother had trained him only to eat the finest.
I don't remember his spiritual riffing though. Just the funny chitchat.
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He could have been not alone in a public mens' room which I presume is your way of saying public toilets. Of course he may have been disgusted because he thought you were coming on to him.
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Satsang worked for me. I had very little to say about my spiritual attainment and devotion so I said very little but it was spontaneous and I liked it so much I have never stopped.
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I just checked out what was this foot washing ad spoken about as a Super Bowl ad.
I was reminded of something I saw in the archive of the noble but apparently futile efforts to get some facts in the Wikipedia article.
In the archive is some drivel by some well known premie “foot kissing is a common form of greeting in India” … someone retorts- “can you tell me one example of Prem Rawat kissing another persons feet? Joining a line of others to kiss someone’s feet?”
Seemed to me to be a great point.
Imagining a bunch of premies going for pedicures and sending Prem the used water in pretty little bottles.
Desperate enough, he’d likely engineer a reverse darshan line where he kissed all their feet?
Probably do that if he gets to keep the spoils? Before he liquidated his fortune for college and healthcare funds for anyone who had their lives upended by him?
Modified by Susan at Wed, Feb 14, 2024, 10:44:39
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