New Post

Reload

Overview
 
Chat
NewestArchive
Login
 
Admin
Religious charismatic leadership
  Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

02/01/2024, 14:25:00
Author Profile

Edit
Alert Forum Admin




Post Reply

I was recently
contacted by a historian at the University of ?? in the USA re
research she was doing for a book about charismatic leadership. She
was trying to learn more about the career of Prem Rawat. I replied
I’d be happy to hear the thoughts of an associate professor of
religion re Rawat’s charisma because I’ve been wondering about it
for 50 years.


She replied: "From
the outside it’s just completely baffling"


She was interested
in Rawat’s career because he appeared so devoid of charisma and yet
was a successful cult leader.


I don’t believe in
'charisma,' I believe there are people who are more interesting
and attractive than the norm and in the appropriate circumstances can
influence others to a greater extent than would otherwise be
expected. Rawat is an outlier, a person with less than the average
ability to interest and attract others who nevertheless became a cult
leader.


In Rawat’s case at
least I think we can safely say it was the time and the place and
having the Indian infrastructure and followers and mahatmas and the
insane enthusiasm of his early Western followers that provided the
mise-en-scène in which he acted out the role of Perfect Master and
Lord of the Universe. Once inside that bubble it didn’t matter how
bad his act was, everything could be explained. In retrospect it’s
even more bizarre than it appeared at the time.

If you are contacted by this researcher I recommend you have a chat with her.








Previous View All Current page Next
Re: Religious charismatic leadership
Re: Religious charismatic leadership -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Ash ®

02/01/2024, 14:41:03
Author Profile

Edit
Alert Forum Admin




Post Reply

What I think is, this never was a religion (Prem's own words in his early incarnation as LOTU, The Perfect Master or just Guru Maharaj Ji.)

So: this never was a religion, nor was it an anti-religion. It was meant to be a cult from the beginning (his father "Shri Hans" being "the Satguru of his time" ).

This man had found a way to make a business of what he thought was "his vocation" .... and getting older and nearer to his death, realized that it can easily be turned into a family business given the Indian structure of all the belief systems playing into his hands.

And Shri Hans's best marketing idea ever was, to make his YOUNGEST son his successor, and not the oldest which would have been "normal" by Indian standards. (So that was very remarkable even for India, the land of 100s of beliefs and 10.000s of mahatmas.)

So, all the father's mahatmas of that time busied themselves in grooming this little boy into his leadership role from an early age on. Prem learned the business from just being his father's son, (meaning: learning by imitation) and then playing the role they had cut out for him to a T.

What an ego trip to be sent on for such a little child! 

What do children with huge egos do? They test their boundaries, trying to cross red line after red line ... and getting away with it. Even in school - and much easier: with his fathers followers.

A family business if there ever was one!







As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)


Modified by Ash at Thu, Feb 01, 2024, 14:45:06

Previous Current page Next
Re: Religious charismatic leadership
Re: Re: Religious charismatic leadership -- Ash Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
prembio ®

02/03/2024, 21:58:06
Author Profile

Edit
Alert Forum Admin




Post Reply
As far as I can understand, Hans Rawat did not find a way to make a business out of his vocation because there was no separation, no concept that these were two different things and there was no idea that it can be "turned into a family business" because that was just part of being a guru in that tradition or it wasn't if you didn't have a family.

Prem actually talks about his childhood as being very controlled, very fearful and that there was a disconnection between his family life and his public role. But by coming to the West, he could escape those family expectations and the discipline of the role he would have to accept in India.

Young Prem didn't try to cross red line after red line, he was scared and obedient but he secretly cheated at school praying his parents wouldn't find out.

Hans Rawat grew up in a traditional Indian society, Prem was becoming aware of life out of India in the 1960s and wanted the consumerism and materialism that his early followers thought they wanted to reject.

He was lucky. He fell into a group of enablers who expected he could do whatever he wanted and they'd do it too while basking in the glow of being the inner circle of the in crowd and living off the earnings of those who took the spiel seriously.








Previous Current page Next
Thank you!
Re: Re: Religious charismatic leadership -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Ash ®

02/04/2024, 12:04:49
Author Profile

Edit
Alert Forum Admin




Post Reply
....for clarifying things a bit more detailed. 



As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)



Previous Current page Next
I wrote her
Re: Religious charismatic leadership -- prembio Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Susan ®

02/01/2024, 21:30:31
Author Profile

Edit
Alert Forum Admin




Post Reply
"My perspective is this. I was only 13 when I became a premie. All the charisma was the other followers for me, not the Guru. Well before I ever saw Prem Rawat on stage, I was told a lot by others about who Guru Maharaj Ji (GMJ) was. There was a giant altar with gilded large photo of him and an empty chair for him at every satsang.  I saw him as I was set up to see him. I was also very young, and a magical thinker who loved the Chronicles of Narnia. To me, how I remember it, I felt initially I had walked through the wardrobe.  The other premies treated me so special, and I felt loved, and I felt the whole thing was magic. So he didn’t need personal charisma because there was an incredible amount of the power of suggestion and an imprint of his image and what it meant before I ever saw him. There were magazines with his photos, and videos, shown to “aspirants” or people who want to be initiated or “receive Knowledge”. We were told Knowledge would be a direct experience of God. Proof of God. We also were introduced to the idea of “mind”- mind is your thoughts, and especially your doubts, and mind, was called “mr. Mind” and frankly it was like the devil inside you that would fight the “truth” or your “heart”. So very early, before one even met the mahatma, the idea that your own thoughts, especially doubts or negative thoughts, was introduced. My personal opinion is this separated you from your conscience, your common sense, and most premies, who would quite naturally have doubts, were taught that their doubts, gut instinct, and conscience was an outside force of evil.  Mind isn’t you, it’s an outside force trying to keep you from “realizing Knowledge” and “surrendering”. I fell for this, hook line and sinker. And boy did I have doubts, and those doubts, were set up by the dogma, to believe myself to be a bad premie indeed.

In January 1975, Mahatma Jagdeo came through Miami to hold a Knowledge session (initiation) the first step was a Knowlesge selection. Watch the tvtv documentary, Lord of the Universe, for others experience of the selection. At my selection, Mahatma Jagdeo sat in a chair, with little girls with flowers in their hair, at his feet, looking out beside him. Jagdeo didn’t have “charisma”- he was kind of scary, like the hell fire and damnation Mahatma. But I was already hooked. So as much as the man scared me, I blamed my mind for thinking he was mean. Mahatma Ji  asked very scary questions such as “would you cut of your head or arm for guru Maharaj ji” only the people who said yes, were selected, the others were deemed to be not ready. Confirmation bias much?

I overheard, that the ashram was unsuitable for the Knowledge session, as Mahatma Ji needed his own bathroom as part of the session. Given the decapitation questions, I wondered if that was why he requires his own bathroom. Would we be decapitated and knowledge inserted and then be some sort of zombie? I still went. I was already convinced that GMJ and knowledge were magic like Aslan and Narnia. And as much as I considered running I didn’t. And when I was shown the meditation, “recieved Knowledge” I thought - this doesn’t prove there is God! This doesn’t prove GMJ is anything. But I was already convinced that was my Mind and I was a bad premie, with doubts. So any thoughts like that were not proof the emporer had no clothes, but that I was filled with “mind” and bad.  I was already, a bad premie. I didn’t really consider he was a fake. I was already that entrenched. 

When I first saw GMJ in person, it was a Holi festival,March 1975 in Miami, and somewhat small, a few hundred premies? In Miami. He sprayed colored water( it’s a real Hindu festival) is was fun. The water smelled good- being 13, this playful festival just felt fun. So I had a nice experience of meeting him. Later there was a satsang at the Miami Edison high school auditorium. Not a huge venue. He seemed nice on stage, his beautiful wife, Durga Ji, who looked to me like an angel, sat at his feet, holding her 3 week old baby daughter Premlata. The only weird doubt I had, was the community bought Premlata pierced diamond earrings. I was upset that the little baby would have pierced ears. That would hurt! But again, my mind. I loved babies, and I don’t doubt, for me - the angelic wife and little baby-were part of cementing my love for the guru. 

Later. In the next four years, sometimes Prem would yell at the premies for how ungrateful or bad we were. By then, there was never a doubt. I was bad. I deserved it. Also, he had more babies and they played on the stage. I put the photos of the babies and GMJ and wife Durga ji all over my walls. Just as I had Donny Osmond or Michael Jackson or Partridge family in the year prior to the cult. 

We went through the line to kiss his feet, I think I sometimes felt “bliss” but more I remember feeling I was bad, because I thought he looked bored, even contemptuous, and didn’t know who I was. That was mind. "

This is edited. But she said there was a part she might use. I made her promise to fix my grammar and typos!











Previous Current page Next


Forum     Back