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"Beneath every lit candle fake guru, you'll find a few unlit matches enablers."
The following information is intended to serve as background and context for questions and comments at the end:
1. Michael Dettmers was a former vice president of Divine Light Mission who has been described as Prem Rawat's "right-hand man, fixer, and legal and financial affairs manager." His eye-witness accounts of Prem's behavior and his acknowledgement of complicity played an important role in the history of this forum. The following link from ex-premie.org contains a portion of what he said:
https://www.ex-premie.org/best/bofdettmersqa.htm
2. I recently learned that Michael is a follower of Sai Maa and that he now goes by Muktananda, a name given to him by Sai Maa:
https://www.sai-maa.com/
3. Michael is the Founding Partner of Cassa Mannabliss, a wellness center that promotes healing, transformation, higher consciousness and personal growth through yoga, meditation, workshops, music and other activities.
https://casamannabliss.com/
4. Michael is also the founder of PaVima, LLC, an organization "committed to transforming what it means to be human."
https://pavima.com/
"PaVima recognizes that we are spiritual beings of light who chose to have a human experience. We are not human beings striving to have a spiritual experience. We made that choice from the 5th dimension, a state of consciousness where light, love and oneness reign supreme - our natural state of being. However, the denser energetic frequencies of the 3rd dimension (our lives on earth) predominantly manifest as fear and separation such that we soon forget the light and love that we are. This condition is the root of our suffering."
5. Michael is referred to as Muktananda on both the Cassa Mannabliss and PaVima websites where his photographs are prominently displayed. (See "Our Team" under "About Us" on the Cassa Mannabliss website.) I do not know how intertwined Sai Maa or her teaching are with Cassa Mannabliss or PaVima, but given that Michael is conspicuously known as Muktananda (a name given to him by Sai Maa) in both organizations, I suspect that her teachings play a significant role.
6. Following is a link to an article on the Dialogue Ireland website, an organization that "seeks to promote people's freedom to make informed choices about religious, spiritual and philosophical beliefs." Comments by ex-followers of Sai Maa in many ways mirror those made by ex-followers of Prem Rawat:
Comments include, but are far from limited to:
- Sai Maa did learn from the best, none other than the former personal assistant of another cult leader - master of manipulation and energy stealing - the Sai Maa Organization is a sinister CULT - She is a scam artist and a con and a close kin to other false gurus - JOPH (a seminar) is intensive group brainwashing... creates psychological damage which wrecks lives and relationships with Families! - She demands complete obedience from her devotees and feels entitled to adulation and special treatment from her devotees - Many of the ex-followers of Sai Maa know this is a Cult Organization and that she is a guru predator that brainwashes and exploits people without worry of any legal repercussions
Additionally, following is a link to the Cult Education Institute that includes many similar comments: https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,135612 7. Before becoming a follower of Sai Maa, Michael clearly understood that he had left a cult and acknowledged the misguided role he played in it: "I am gratified that, by speaking out, I have helped many people exit the cult. It has been a liberating experience and I thank all of the people whose efforts make EPO and this FORUM possible." "I was a willing accomplice in a conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy for which I have no excuse." "When I look back at the whole thing with a great deal of disgust, I have to say, of course, I was foolish to have ever been a part of something like that." 8. It is my understanding that when Michael initially spoke out, he was met with a degree of skepticism about his motives and criticism for his complicity in the cult. I would add that his actions negatively affected me and countless others in ways that reverberated for decades beyond his departure. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Why do I care about any of this? I became a community coordinator in 1975. My role was to loyally execute orders from above and promote Guru Maharaji. That role essentially meant inspiring others to comply with cult edicts, raise funds and do my best to set an example. As Guru Maharaji's right-hand man, it was in part Michael's role to disseminate those orders, cult edicts and fundraising needs, as well as to oversee how that money was spent. Subsequently, we both recognized it to be a "conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy" and that we were complicit in the exploitation of others. To be fair, and to give Michael the benefit of the doubt, one must believe that Michael's connection to Sai Maa and his involvement in Cassa Mannabliss and PaVima is motivated purely by an overwhelmingly positive inner experience. (Benefit of the doubt: "to believe something good about someone, rather than something bad, when you have the possibilities of doing either." ) Nevertheless, how is it possible for a person to go from being an accomplice in a conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy and looking back on it with a great deal of disgust in one destructive cult... to becoming Muktananda in what (in the opinion of many people familiar with it) is clearly another destructive cult? What lessons did Michael learn from being "foolish to have ever been a part of something like that?" Did he ever seriously deconstruct his involvement and examine his own motives, culpabilities and vulnerabilities? Michael must surely be aware of the easily accessible criticism of Sai Maa; criticism that in many ways mirror the criticism of Prem Rawat f/k/a Guru Maharaji. On the surface, it appears to me as if Michael merely shopped his skills and experience in one cult in search of a similar opportunity in another cult. On the surface, it appears to me that he did the same thing all over again, this time with what appears to be a willful blind spot. It now appears to me that the initial skepticism about his motives may have been well founded. These, of course, are merely my initial/superficial thoughts and observations.
Modified by lakeshore at Tue, Jan 16, 2024, 19:07:18
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So well said. I am grateful to Michael/Mutkananda (Ji?) for helping me get that letter delivered 24 years ago. He advocated for the Jagdeo victims and helped free a lot of premies from the cult.
Cult hopping is a well known phenomenon. Even Mark Vicente of "the Vow" "NXVIM" went from one cult to another. He had a leadership role in NXVIM and hesitates to name the first cult in interviews.
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/what-is-cult-hopping-nxivm-dos-838750/
I like your benefit of the doubt. Maybe he was as sincerely drawn in the Sai Maa as he once was to Maharaj Ji. Maybe he really thinks he has now found the one true thing that looks exactly like a cult but isn't.
The other side of this doubt though is he was no ordinary member of either group. Both Prem Rawat and Sai Maa are accused of financial exploitation of their followers. It appears Michael/Mutkananda played a similar role in structuring her group to his in DLM/EV. I don't know if Michael left Prem Rawat with money, and I don't know if he financially benefits from his new spiritual businesses. But it seems a very fair and obvious question.
Personally, I feel a little shocked, angry, sad and maybe even a tad betrayed. Only because, my name has been on the EPO Jagdeo Issue homepage for decades along side Michael's, and on some level this may possibly hurt me as well. It in no way adds to his credibility and can't help mine.
(edit.. I know I heard he was following another guru years ago. It wasn't quite the same as seeing this new website and learning his new name. I am pretty sure there was some discussion of this years ago)
Another link on Reddit- another similarity- children of members
https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/comments/lmv5zm/in_your_opinion_is_sai_maasai_maas_organization_a/
Modified by Susan at Tue, Jan 16, 2024, 20:55:47
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https://soundcloud.com/awakened-life/muktananda-the-grace-of-the-guru/s-zbEqaRCU0tt
I may not be able to make it to the end.
I remember his voice but I don't remember the sing song satsang tone.
"A real guru actually makes that happen for the disciple"
I can't even. It seems exactly like listening to a premie talk about Knowledge saying "I don't have to think I know"
Dismay.
I am going to watch Pride and Prejudice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lvOHmBsQH8
Modified by Susan at Tue, Jan 16, 2024, 22:07:43
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My inner bullshit-o-meter tells me that this guy learned the whole business from the Ji - and finally decided he could do the same work but this time for his own profit.
I have no benefits of doubt to grant here.
That's what my inner bullshit-o-meter tells me. And as I ignored it so stubbornly ~50 years ago - I think this time will listen to it.
Greetings to all of you!
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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Another shout of welcome!
I would never suggest that anyone ignore their bullshit-o-meter, especially after the tune-up it got when we left that cult!
As for the benefit of the doubt, they say "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
The only thing I know for sure is that it certainly looks like a duck.
I kept telling myself the only way to find out is to pick-up the phone and call Muktananda, and I'm not about to do that. But even then...
Welcome back and I hope you're well.
Bob
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Hi Bob, thanks for the welcome --- and at this occasion please pass my best regards on to Connie!
Yeah, I'm fine, sometimes more, sometimes less. Thanks for asking.
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)
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very funny name and good to have a laugh after the sickening news of Michael Dettmers.
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I think it was Thoreau who said beware new enterprises that demand new clothes.
What kind of enterprise would merit a new name? Beware!
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Yes, I can't wrap my head round it - what is Michael Dettmers doing?? doesn't he realise he's in another cult? that seems very unlikely - having got out of one cult to join another similar cult and not notice all the similarities?
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It’s been described a lot. “Cult hopping”
Yet I had the same reaction because he hopped to something with a lot of similarities and seemed to take on such a similar role for the leader. He must have been able to see if nothing else it looks like he is taking his skill set to another cult. If he had been a stage hand or jet pilot and took the cult skill to another cult I am not so sure we’d feel so uncomfortable or feel he is worthy of discussion. I think though the folks at the top - it’s different.
What did he do with his thoughts on the similarities? Surely he had to have them, that it looks so similar?
I feel torn too, about him being a topic of discussion. But I believe it’s ethical because of the role he played. If Valerio Pascotto left and went to Twin Flames to do their team trainings it would be topical. If Charles Glasser left and went to Scientology it would be notable. I am not sure if some rank and file premie did so it would be. The people who are at the top may or may not benefit financially. Sure sounds like Linda and Alavaro give money don’t take money.
I found an article where folks were tearing into Mark Vicente because he was at the top. Then they said he had an immunity deal in Raniere’s conviction.
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Yes, it's the x-rating system, Mike Dettmers was one of the folks at the top. it seemed to me that he had a conscience, that he was blowing the whistle not just on Mr 'God in a Bod' being a fake but the bad treatment of people and bad behaviour of Rawat.
So if he genuinely fell for another cult only to see the similarities, what happened to his conscience? why didn't he whistleblow on them in turn?
Well, it's his life not mine. Hope he is okay. I liked Lakeshore saying it was a surface picture we had.
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The alphabet was kind to you. What I often do to things is far worse!
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 05:25:25
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This is why this feels personal for me. Everyone knows how scary confronting this cult is. I made the very difficult choice, pre #metoo , to use my name here. My name and Dettmers were side by side in that third time I tried to get the information about Jagdeo to Prem Rawat.
For folks who don’t think I am scared enough, I was afraid to open my blinds and open my front door back then. I was definitely afraid of a Fakiranand whether a lone wolf or something akin to the guy Dettmers described willing to take the blame for the India accident. A lot of people are afraid of this cult. I am not alone. The only thing we have to fear isn’t fear itself- but nothing bad in this world ever changes when people are intimidated into silence. We have every right to tell our own life stories.
And we have a right to discuss our opinions of Prem Rawat and his many past and present organizations as it is a matter of public interest and throughout his adult lifetime he has assured he remains a public figure.
Modified by Susan at Wed, Jan 17, 2024, 10:58:34
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That was one of my all time favorite forum posts. I had heard via someone who stayed anonymous that same story of the intervention at the San Ysidro Ranch in Montecito. I found the level of cognitive dissonance needed to stay following him yet confronting him fascinating. It also echoes what Mishler described happened in 1976. It shows two times Prem Rawat confronted, as an adult, with the consequences for premies of this cult where he has so much power. I also focus so much on them saying they never saw a group with so much fear. Someone should make a film about this. One of the people there went back later I heard.
I feel very torn about saying how I feel about Michael/Mutkananda. I haven’t spoken to him since maybe 2004 or so. Yet, I do have genuine gratitude for what he did here and for me. I hate the idea of causing him pain. Yet, in both groups, he wasn’t an ordinary member. He even describes “restructuring” in reference to Sai Maa. Which, if you read his story, it sound like he was critical in finding Aubrey West who guided Prem out of a huge crisis with IRS.
I can’t help but reflect on Mishler had taken an expert’s advice and given Prem 1976 (per Mishler and Dettmers writings) that Prem had to sell Malibu, drive a Chevy type car and live in Denver in suburbia on the salary a well compensated parish priest might make.
Dettmers saved Prem from that fate. These criticisms of Sai Maa run the gamut. But the theme is money in many of them.
It’s not a pretty picture.
I will say, I got close to the end of that audio thing on his site. I think he sounds like he really believes it and in her and his experience. I guess, what I would like to believe, is that this conversion was sincere and his using his skill set with with yet another person accused of being a cult leader was a consequence not a primary motive.
Modified by Susan at Wed, Jan 17, 2024, 10:40:41
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"I think he sounds like he really believes it and in her and his experience. I guess, what I would like to believe, is that his conversion was sincere and his using his skill set with yet another person accused of being a cult leader was a consequence of not a primary motive."
I either forgot or hadn't understood how instrumental Michael was in doing his best to ensure that you were heard. His reply to Terry Yingling really put his efforts to help you and put the entire Jagdeo accountability issue into perspective. I completely understand why all of this makes you feel torn about saying how you feel about Michael/Muktananda. As for "benefit of the doubt," I also feel conflicted because it's not my nature to go after anyone. In this case, Michael is no dummy, far from it. He was fully aware of all the criticism and hypocrisy (not to mention lies) of Prem Rawat. Consequently, he had that kind of experience under his belt along with the rest of his skills and experience. He knew what to look for.
I also wanted to believe his conversion was sincere - or at least hold out some hope - and it very well could be. Misguided again for sure, at least in my opinion, but sincere nevertheless!
That's why I tried to draw a line between superficial, on the surface appearances... and whatever the truth of the matter may be. On the surface, it doesn't look good.
Just learning how much Michael helped you and how grateful you were and continue to be makes it all the more difficult.
Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 06:20:04
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Thank you for the links to these excellent posts. I held Michael in high regard for speaking out so clearly. His posts were enormously helpful when I immersed myself in the forum in the weeks just before I finally had enough and left the cult.
I'd heard that he went on to another guru, which left me a little puzzled, but I wasn't aware of the background of that guru or his founding of PaVima and Mannabliss. Not my cup of tea, but significant achievments in their own right.
Hope all is well!
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Jan 19, 2024, 04:48:30
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I know that we knew that Dettmers went to this other guru. Is she the hugging one?
And I think we heard that Michael Donner followed Dettmers.
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I heard about him having a new Guru years ago yes. I think there are two women gurus known for hugging and one has passed away. I think both these women gurus were once followers of Sai Baba.
https://sathyasaibaba.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/sri-mata-amritanandamayi-devi-ammachi-the-hugging-saint/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_Maa ( I don't see Jossi editing this! Must be too busy with his cool rope flow life)
Sai Baba has a very bad history
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/nov/04/voluntarysector.india
I recall someone saying Donner was involved too. But I found out about the name change and Pavima this weekend. The person that shared it with me swore he is sure Donner not involved. So I don't know? Maybe that was just a rumor?
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Wasn't there a former Sai Baba cult victim that posted here for months many years ago? He was European. I think he had been an underage sexual victim of that guru. What he said about that cult was totally horrible. Wide spread paedophile abuse. Does anyone recall this?
K
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Familiar. I think so? This forum has been active now for decades so hard to keep track of it all. I think I went through many years where I rarely posted. I believe I always checked it almost daily; purely to see if Prem Rawat was still alive since I had decided he had become so irrelevant that his passing would not be newsworthy.
Speaking of relevance. I have listened to this over and over. I think it is possible Sara Sidner is referenced in this video of Prem Rawat’s 66th birthday afterparty. Smaller party after/before? The bigger venue event.
If you click on the link… there are two videos The one on right, toward the end. My interpetation is attendees were asked to read missives of VIPs who were not attending. It’s the second reading toward end of the video on the right.
P.S. bonus point, the head with the band of white hair. That’s a birthmark sort of thing, the white patch. I remember sitting behind a VIP premie, think he was a cook for Rawat. Anyone have a name? We can’t say for sure same guy but I remember the hair. Interestingly seen this in babies (it’s rare) I cared for at work). Certainly could be more than one with that, but an older guy at a VIP an event with same rare birthmark?
This says one in 20,000
Modified by Susan at Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 16:38:19
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What???????
I couldn't make out what they were saying. Darn. A guy with a white patch? They all had white hair. We're all like old people now.
But, I do thank you, Susan, for linking those videos because I am not full of gratitude because I no longer belong to that stoooooooopid cult!
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I am pretty sure of what she is saying but not sure enough to say what I think it says… don’t want to make someone hear what I think it says. It’s after “dear Maharaji Happy Birthday and lots of love your premie of 40+ years”
White patch. No one part of his hair is white white in a patch. I think same guy. Doesn’t matter it’s just funny how a memory will come back. His name I wouldn’t swear to. Sure he was a residence fellow. Not sure if same back of head but 1:20k odds good.
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If I recall correctly, there was a premie from the early days who had a white patch of hair even as a young man. I think his name was Dennis Murphy, originally from the Wash DC area. He was rawat's personal cook and lived in or near the Malibu Rez...
Modified by 1972 at Wed, Jan 24, 2024, 17:33:48
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I got interviewed to be a cook at the rez. Didn't get it. I was disappointed at the time. Wow, did I dodge a huge bullet! Oh, I cooked for the pedophile fake guru!
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If Michael has fallen for another cult, it is pretty understandable to me. After I left prem's cult, I was cult-free for many years, but then I guess I wanted something that seemed 'real' to me again and so I ended up falling for the good old Catholic Church cult. Once again I was very sincere, and was seriously looking for 'God' so I consciously chose to be brainwashed (I can even remember the day it happened - I gave myself permission to believe) and then ended up becoming a Carmelite nun for about 8-9 years in various convents around the world. A deep sense of dissatisfaction and a slowly growing realisation that I 'had done it again' finally won out, and after 'waking up' again and leaving the last convent, I found myself walking the Camino de Santiago for weeks and weeks, trying to sort myself out, and crying almost every step of the way.
I returned to Australia in 2015 and finally made the break from the church. I stopped attending every week, which was a big deal for me at the time, because not going to Sunday Mass was considered a 'mortal sin' - which means that I am destined for hell. Oh well. I might meet some friends there - lol.
But I can definitely understand why Dettmers wants something that he can hang onto. It is insidiously comforting to think you know the answers to everything and that everything is under control by some invisible power or force, guided by some supreme spiritual leader. It is much harder to accept the reality that we have very little control over anything in our lives (apart from our own responses and reactions) and that there just might not be any supreme power or answer to the secrets of the universe - at least not here on planet earth.
I wish Dettmers all the best in his ongoing search, but a part of me worries that he will be alright because he is building his house on sand and it must be so hard to keep trying to shore up the foundations with conflicting ideas and cognitive dissonance. I know, it was hard for me.
On the other hand, I know people who have already died, believing that prem is the master and that he really loved them. Maybe they died in peace - I don't know. I am grateful not to be in a cult of any kind anymore but I can also understand and appreciate those who simply don't want to challenge their cult reality because their belief system helps them cope with the 'real reality' - which is that we simply don't have all the answers - and that's ok too.
Freedom can seem scary or lonely sometimes. Maybe not everyone can handle it.
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I think you have said this well, this sometime inherent propensity for a package of truth or comfort in something.He wanted better bread than can be made of wheat tho also - 'uncertainty is an uncomfortable position but certainty is an absurd one' -voltaire
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The more I hear the stories of other posters here, the more I feel... pedestrian.
Your search paid off in at least one (of many) ways: your obvious depth of wisdom and acceptance. The hard-earned freedom from insidiously feeling comforted by thinking "you know the answers to everything and that everything is under control by some invisible power or force, guided by some supreme spiritual leader." The kind of freedom that maybe not everyone can handle.
This forum is not easy for me because I often second guess my posts, i.e., myself, and it sometimes leaves me feeling unsettled. I smack myself down because the only thing I really know is that I don't know very much. But then someone comes out with a post like your and it's worth it because something I wrote evoked something beautiful and meaningful from someone else.
As I wrote that post about Muktananda, I was mindful of how biased I am against spiritual leaders and anything cultish or guru-ish, especially when they involve numbered dimensions. I'm quite happy accepting that that invisible power of force is unknowable, not meant to be known, not necessary to be known and certainly not the purpose of my life.
(If I really wanted to go for it, I could try to pass-off, tongue-in-cheek of course, that it's the ultimate state of enlightenment to come to that... realization! At least it's a heck of a lot lighter!)
None of this is to imply that I don't stand in awe and wonder of life and everything that the beautiful things that surround me. It's just that I'm happy enough knowing that the universal laws of physics, nature and whatever are the ultimate arbiters of fairness and equal treatment.
Oh, and one more pay-off from your search: your understanding and empathy for those trapped in that in that insidious "comfort" shines through. Or maybe you were like that long before your search began.
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Jan 19, 2024, 07:47:12
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Lakeshore, I am not really sure what you mean by feeling pedestrian. I think you are a very erudite writer who expresses deep and meaningful sentiments. What is pedestrian about that?
I often relate to what you write and am inspired to write things myself by what you say about your own experiences. And some of the greatest thinkers and writers agree with your bias against religion and religious leaders. Christopher Hitchen and Stephen Fry are two that leap into my thoughts as I write this. And I adore them!
As for my own spiritual journeys, I think a lot of my pathology about religion comes from a dysfunctional childhood with an abundance of stressful sibling relationships and parents who simply were not committed to parenting despite the society of their day expecting this of them. My mother was a loving, kind and generous woman who felt that if the children were alive at the end of the day, she had done her job. My father believed that all anyone could expect of him was a paycheck - he was a man who never actually fulfilled any of his lifelong dreams (to sail the world or own a small airport). They were both deeply depressed people, intellectuals who didn't fit into suburbia, and who had no idea what to do with the 7 children they had somehow produced despite various forms of contraception being available to them.
I only tell you this to show that nothing about me is exceptional in the least. I simply searched for some kind of meaning to the confusion of life, the universe and everything. I looked in science fiction novels, wishing I had been left here on this planet by aliens, who would one day return to rescue me (ET phone home). I then tried Buddism before searching for a guru. It was just my bad luck that prem was arising at the time I was looking for something.
And after dragging myself out of his cult, I managed to mess up all of my interpersonal relationships and jobs so turned again to "God" in the form of the Catholic Church. what kind of an idiot gets immeshed in a cult twice? Well, that's the kind of idiot I am.
I do have a talent for writing a little, and have always enjoyed it. I have always kept a journal because I live alone and need someone other than my cats for conversation. So I talk to myself by writing. It is less obvious how crazy I am this way. I thank science for inventing cell phones because I can talk to myself while shopping and people just think I am on a phone call!
Anyway, this is way off topic, but I just wanted to reassure you that you are far from pedestrian and if you really have reached the understanding of not being able to know everything, then yes indeed, you are a fully realised soul! LOL
Enjoy then, your blessed state of enlightenment. It is now time to go out and form your own religion and start recruiting followers. I won't be signing up however, as I don't think I could survive joining a cult for a third time.
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Richard Dawkins - let's not forget Richard Dawkins. He was naive and got a kicking for speaking out against the God delusion but he is my favourite. I read his book The Selfish Gene when I was exiting and I literally cried when I realised the book was ending and I would lose his company!
It sounds like your parents were not a good match. As a young woman, my mother fell in love with an air pilot. He was killed in action so that was that. My grandfather had started a business making heating equipment during the war and so several years later there she was at 26 years old on a boat going to Canada for a trade fair and she fell into the charm trap of a narcissist. From his perspective it was a good marriage, she stuck by him for 56 years, from hers it sure wasn't and though it took her so long to see through his lies, in her 80's she left him. I'm so proud of her, I still love her to bits even though she's been dead for just about 13 years now.
I've watched parent's heartbreaking struggles with manipulative children but it is not the same dislocating all-encompassing distress as in the marital relationship, and isn't the God delusion grafted onto the same spot.
This is why I have held onto the idea that the truth of Marolyn could be that she is number one victim of Rawat rather than being cut from the same cloth as him, which is looking more likely to actually be the truth of her.
Modified by lesley at Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 06:12:39
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I agree, Richard Dawkins was a wonder too. I just forgot to mention him.
As for parents marriages, I think my mother married my father on the rebound from her real love, but since he was a narcissist too, it probably wouldn't have worked out much better. My father was a seriously damaged man because his parents divorced when he was 5 and they wouldn't let him live with his beloved mother, sending him away to a boy's military school instead. Then he went off to war and came back weird, as many soldiers do. I think his life was sad. My mother's mother died of cancer when she was 12, so really, neither of my parents had a positive role model of parenting, but I guess they just felt they had to procreate because that was what men and women did in those days. Very sad for all of them.
As for Marolyn, she was raised as a good Catholic girl, so she already had the cult mentality. Believing as she must have, that prem was god incarnate, what else could she do? I am sure she has had her doubts and desires to leave him, but let's face it, a lot of women just don't know how to leave a man, especially a god man. She is a typically battered and abused spouse, emotionally if not physically. I was once envious of her, but oh my god how grateful am I today that I never had to go through what she did. Imagine sleeping with that man?
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well yes, I don't think I want to imagine it!
There are stories at variance - someone posted here that Prem really did not want to marry Marolyn - at 16 why would he? well because his mother was trying to drag him back to India and into her control and getting married to Marolyn put an end to that.
That is at variance with the older woman putting the minor under her spell so that he is marrying her because he wants to.
An up close view is going to be more informed.
It's like someone said a few posts ago about Maharaji - where's the nice stories about him? you don't hear how he bought a new suit for the devotee he pushed in the pool. There are some stories that don't cast Marolyn in a nice light and I can't think of one which does.
As his number one victim you would expect Maharaji to tell the most lies about her. So I know I don't know for sure and I do think those who have been physically close up are far more likely to have the measure of her than from a distance.
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Speculation about Marolyn and Monika is trickier these days. I always, and I have even seen my old posts where I defend Marolyn as a victim, saw her that way. Like her husband, she possibly can be both and victimizer and a victim (in his own words from in old satsangs re Shri Hans, Prem had a father who caused him as a little boy to tremble in terror as Dad physically beat his followers - and I now believe he had stage parents to rival the worst of them)
I would argue there is nothing typical about their relationship be it devotee master or adult woman and young teenage boy.
Some things are so serious that only the people who lived it can tell the story.
Aquinas didn't you say you worked alongside Monika a bit? What was your take on her personality?
I don't doubt all of these three on some level see themselves as victims. ( on some respect it may be true for each)
Prem Rawat has never been responsible for anything in his life. I would welcome one quote where he says something was a mistake and the mistake was his fault. I don't doubt he would blame mahatmas, his father, Marolyn, Monika, his own children just as he has the "concepts" of premies as responsible for anything that goes wrong in his life.
I think, the news is full of women who remain with men where the line between victim, victimizer and complicit is not sympathetic to them. Mary Kay Letourneau, Wanda Barzee, Gislaine Maxwell and Nancy Garrido come to mind. Only Mary Kay on that list had a partner who was not a predator.
https://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/f8archive/posts/7984.html
Thread where I have it spectacularly wrong. Cynthia I think always saw it more clearly. I was projecting my life experiences and not even imagining the reality had zero to do with what we were designed to see on stage and in the pages of the Divine Times.
Another post that looks quite different now- also, does anyone know if Bill Burke around? His old posts insightful too. The bold about "gang" - all it would take was seeing one to make a person get a look like is described.
Date: Thurs, Mar 25, 1999 at 14:50:05 (EST) From: Nim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The day Wadi Sue ran away Message: This story is dedicated to COLIN NEIBURGER of the Amtext office in Miami. Without his inspiration I wouldn't even have the heart to tell it. Neiburger was the one who referred to me as the 'dog face buyer from Canada.' I only have one question about that today. Did m ask him to do it? Neiburger himself, is the resident circus freak fat boy head fucking artist at the office, relishing his role as the resident office rottweiler, while bemoaning his incurable obesity so as to garner the sympathy of his victims. Trust me on this one. He's truly worthy of this dedication. I hope he enjoys it! ****************************************************************** Introduction On May 11, 96 as I have already recalled on these pages, I attended what was billed as an 'intimate party with Maharaji' at his Malibu residence, for the premie book buyers associated with Amtext and its office staff. For those of you who missed our discussion on Amtext last November here on the forum, let me attempt a brief introduction. Amtext is a twenty year old company whose president, pwk Chuck Nathan, has described m as being the company's 'sole beneficial owner' Now there are quite a few fine points that could be brought into the picture here, if we really wanted to probe the true meaning of m being the sole beneficial owner of Amtext. But that would only delay unnecessarily the telling of this story, so we can always have that discussion some other time. For now, suffice to say that being the sole beneficial owner of Amtext, has brought m an average of over $1,000,000,000 a year for the last twenty years. I believe he's very fond of Amtext and everyone involved. Please keep in mind that not one cent of this money goes to propagation/dissemination. The Amtext pwk's are very proud of the fact, that their efforts are dedicated to supporting the 'personal needs ' of m and his family. Its their greatest honor. I know... I was one of them. And it was to show us his 'personal appreciation', as only he can, that m invited us to the residence on May,11, 96. ****************************************************************** The Story Most of the guests for the party were staying at the Wyndham hotel at LAX. After a series of roll calls and sign ins (there were a total of four before we we even arrived at the residence, where we had still another sign in ahead of us once the gates to the residence were actually opened) we were organized into vans for the trek up to Malibu. The party was slated to start at 4:00pm sharp ,not a minute sooner. By the time my van arrived, there were around 80 of the 150 guests who had already arrived. We were just standing around,wating for the gates to open, when Wadi Sue pulled into the driveway in her little mercedes. I believe everyone there wanted to treat her with the respect befitting 'Maharaji's daughter'. There was no crowding around her car... in fact we just stayed where we were, so as to give Wadi her 'space', everyone just smiling in her direction from wherever we were standing. As Wadi got out of her car, she treated us all to a display of freakery, that must have come straight out of ' The Twilight Zone.' She emerged from her car with this expression of total terror on her face. She looked at the group of us, with this look of horror and contempt, as if she was looking at a gang of Jagdeos or something. And then she ran away disappearing on this trail that goes by the side of the house. We never saw her again that day. Of course, who the fuck would want to see her after that, anyways?! I immediately put it out of my mind ,when it happened. Wasn't going to let it spoil my 'intimate' moment with Maharaji. Besides as every premie dam well knows, that feeling that Wadi expressed to her dad's premies as she got out of her car could in no way reflect m's own feelings for his premies. Could they? No way. Besides it cost me $1,000 dollars to get there. Fuck Wadi Sue, It was party time with Maharaji.!!
Perhaps she has no way of relating to premies like they are normal people? I guess thats why dad is letting her assume a more significant place in his organization. Who knows , maybe she feels more comfortable relating to premies when she can speak to them from the pedestal of being up on the same stage with m. Who cares? If you ask me, those Rawats are one sick fuck of a family. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Modified by Susan at Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 00:52:26
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"She looked at the group of us, with this look of horor and contempt, as if she was looking at a gang of Jagdeos or something." (Or just plain disgust without the "as if." )
I can't help thinking about another plausible explanation. It reminds me of how I felt when arriving home late drunk or stoned or worse to a house full of suspicious parents and step-siblings when I was in high school. "Okay... flip a switch. Keep it together. All you have to do is make it to your room." Multiply that a hundred times if you're Wadi Sue arriving home and caught off-guard by a crowd of eighty intrusive premies smiling at you in that wierd way!
"I would welcome one quote where he says something was a mistake and the mistake was his fault."
After 36 years in that cult and 15 years on this forum - call it 51 years - I only heard of Prem use the word "mistake" one time when it wasn't in the context of mocking, ridiculing, disparaging or otherwise putting premies down... or scaring them out of leaving! That was shortly after the ashrams closed:
"Mistakes were made."
Ten years of many hundreds of relatively young people drastically altering their lives, trajectories and important relationships resulting in immeasurable mental, financial and even physical harm, and that's all he could muster? Even then, it's far more likely that he was referring to mistakes made by others whose "incompetence" resulted in his loss of coveted ashram income. And when you add "and the mistake was his fault," the answer is a big fat zero.
I've posted several times that in 1978 (using Hans Jayanti in Kissimmee as a benchmark) Chuck Nathan proudly boasted, "I want to make a million bucks for Maharaji." He obviously did that many times over. The irony is that I witnessed a seriously ill DECA premie, who desperately wanted quiet and isolation from hectic ashram activity, build and sleep in an "igloo" of boxes of books accumulated by several book buyers... in a garage attached to an ashram.
Bill Burke saw it, too. I've also posted before that he had a heart of gold. As kind as anyone you'd ever want to meet. Wherever he is, I hope he's doing well. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As for Marolyn, in my opening post, I said that part of my role as a community coordinator was to do my best to set a good example. That was based largely on several things Prem said: "First they'll look at me and then they'll look at you, and if they like what they see, they'll look at me again," and "The purpose of the moon is to reflect the sun."
So let's look at her, the closest person to Prem Rawat. All I can come-up with is a broad spectrum based on my observations, second-hand stories and more importantly, credible eye-witnesses. It ranges from a sincere, caught-up victim to a privileged, opportunistic and complicit co-conspirator to broken, damaged and alcohol dependent to cynical and jaded to a numbed state of deep denial and compartmentalization to perhaps even predatory... all in varying degrees at different times. Certainly the harsher side of the benefit of the doubt.
(I must've looked up at the wrong time and and saw a new moon.)
Moreover, the extent to which drugs, alcohol and dysfunction permeated the entire family is no secret. That's why her contorted spiel in the coffee shop video was laughable.
Having had, as you alluded to, a programed soft-spot for the Durga Ji we saw on stage and in the pages of Divine Times, I find her to be a darkly tragic figure. If she ever was a sympathetic figure in the first place - sincere, victimized and well-intentioned like everyone else - then she certainly landed on the wrong side of things.
(Where's Cynthia when I need her to wop me upside the head and tell it like it really is. )
What a naive, goody-two-shoes deluded chump I was.
By evoking memories of high school, Chuck, Bill and Cynthia, your post took me back like a time machine!
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 11:39:25
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Wadi was about 20 according to that tale. About when she went away to UCSC. Maybe there actually was someone who made her feel like I did when I saw Jagdeo in the darshan tunnel? I don’t know who was in that crowd. But I believe it’s possible his initial take “like a gang of Jagdeos” was more right on than the rude spoiled daughter. And it would only take one Jagdeo in the crowd.
Modified by Susan at Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 11:21:08
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Point taken... it's entirely possible that she could've been frightened or triggered by someone in the crowd. In that case, her behavior would've been completely understandable and nothing to laugh about or make fun of.
Thank you!
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I must admit reading those posts mainly reminded me of what an impossible situation Marolyn was in.
Even if she decided to run away with the children how to do it.
Or what about hiring a lawyer? Would her family have helped?
Back then I wondered if now that she had her own place to live not being in his proximity would help her recover.
Seeing that recent video - in the coffee shop with Mr Pilot, put paid to any thought of that. To me she looked broken and creepy-looking.
I know the underlying truth of her could be completely different to what I imagine but I still wonder if it isn't the damage wrought on her by her proximity to Maharaji that we are looking at?
At ten years old I got knocked down by a speeding car. No one has ever suggested I should have been strong enough to push it back. It just happened.
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Didn't we know Dettmers and Donner had joined another cult, led by a woman, decades ago? I think someone posted it on the Forum.
Lots of middle-aged women looking for love, kirtan, yoga, Hindu rituals, travel, what's not to like?
I think he deserves to enjoy life with Sai Maa after the years he endured kissing Rawat's arse. Ten or twenty years living and working close to Rawat, the horror of listening to all his speeches, the humiliation of laughing at his jokes and pretending to respect his wisdom. Dettmers has endured the worst the universe has to offer and he deserves to enjoy himself even if it is at the expense of others. Its karma.
He sort of gave himself away by calling himself Muktananda.
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