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Other than the info in Mike finch's & my posts at https://tinyurl.com/y7c2rq9s & https://tinyurl.com/ybxjmugd
I know nothing more.
I did once meet him in a house(1974/5) with about 5 or 6 other premies, where he gave us all satsang. I was a very new premie at the time and got blown away by him. I remember thinking that this was better than acid(which I had stopped taking a year or two earlier). Of course this helped confirm to me that the Knowledge was 'the knowledge of all knowledges' and contributed to my own fast cultification and self-abandonment at someone's feet.
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I never heard that term. A perfectly succinct description. I can't imagine that I would have gone to such lengths in that cult without an underlying and powerful compulsion to abandon not only myself, but my family, friends and everything else I held dear and identified with. Non-physical suicide comes to mind, really the goal if one took Rawat seriously. Other than that minor quirk, I seem to be just fine these days. 
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 04:07:48
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Well, it's been a most interesting journey coming back from non-physical suicide.I cannot erase the years of misdirected dedication, which I haven't quite forgiven myself for. I am still catching up with myself. (My quirk! :>  )
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At this point, I think it is only reasonable to consider myself a failure. A worthless piece of trash was the phrase in my head when I was waking up the other morning.
I feel so screwed up I can't do my artwork any more - I am struggling to complete the works on my table I don't last more than 2 - 15 minutes in a stretch, or nothing at all yesterday, thank goodness for the garden, it is Spring coming and so dry but I am propagating in pots ready to plant flowers when some rain comes.
I'm pretty confident I didn't have an intent to abandon myself. Yes - misdirected - pushed off my trail, my concerns dismissed as foolish.
I have feelings of gratefulness I made the journey back to myself. I even feel some pride over it! I cannot evade the consequences but I don't feel at fault for being vulnerable - that just makes me a normal human being, ready to bear my responsibilities and cooperate. I'm not entirely sure but i think I've pretty much forgiven myself. 
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It's just your timing that's all wrong Lesley. Allow yourself 2-15 minutes of feeling worthless twice a day, morning and evening, then crack on with your art. We're all just specks of dust and all that, so 2-15 minutes of worthlessness seems appropriate.
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yes, okay.
I was having a bit of a tantrum, i think. I huffed and puffed and barely looked at the tile as I sprayed some water on it but it was enough for me to get the suspicion it might pretty much be finished.
It's so very imperfect but even if I could I don't think perfecting it would be good. it's hanging together now. god forgive me.
I hope the 500 mile biking adventure went well?
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Yes, 13's suggestion of a scheduled 2 - 15 minute self-flogging session seems wise, practical and efficient (as if he would come up with anything else! ). I should take him up on that suggestion, too. My self-thrashings tend to be more like tiny piranha bites all day long. "Worthless piece of..." is mild compared to the expletives that little bugger sinks into me. Not to worry, you are not that and I am not a/an...
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Sep 16, 2017, 07:03:39
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yes, it was a good suggestion from 13, wasn't it.
I had a lovely little modelling session yesterday - I had my confidence back.
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No wonder you left the cult... you can't seem to sit still!
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Hi Lesley There's a school of thought isn't there, that immediately post-exit should not be the time to look at why we entered into a cult. (I left one set of therapy because she wasn't specifically trained and wanted to talk about my parents all the time, when I was dealing with shock and PTSD symptoms.) It's good advice so far as I could tell - but dealing with why we got caught up in that destructive dynamic has to come at some point, if we are to truly accept the past and forgive ourselves. Well that's what worked for me anyway, though it took some considerable time and warrior-like commitment to recovery. I absolutely do forgive myself, fuck yes I do. I was vulnerable, at sea emotionally with no family looking out for my emotional welfare and an inability to form healthy relationships because of that. Absolutely natural I should look for somewhere to 'belong.'
You sound like a normal artist, experiencing those moments of frustration when the inspiration isn't happening. I regularly shout at myself and fling the guitar down, along with the scribbles of crappy lyrics that aren't flowing how I'd like. It's a maddening journey sometimes.
What still gets me is the stubborn picture of him in my head that will not leave...I'm so pissed off about that. I took up yoga again, (life is so busy I need an organised de-stress)...and during relaxation the fuc*er is just there, like he has ownership over my peace. I'm walking, or in the bath or just trying to enjoy my breath (or whatever, yknow just chill basically and perhaps claw back a moment of spiritual one-ness, bite me!) and he's there emerging from my psyche like a buried zombie sticking his hand out of the grave. I have not conquered that one. I just wish wish wish he would go away.
Apart from that I'm cool.
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Hi Newdawn,
Nice to see you here, glad all is going well. Yeah the parent thing. I wish I could go back and tell my young self to hang tough on that one but no it was a real achilles heel, so easy for my ex to tell me it was me who was screwed up because my father was such an issue. So easy for Rawat and his mahatmas to tell us we were the ones making it difficult for God to get through to us - how ridiculous is that, come to think of it.
When I found this forum and we started talking it was such a confirmation of normality.
A phrase which stuck in my mind from a Scott-Peck book was people of the lie. It's like one of those Escher engravings you look and you look and all you can see is the swans and then eventually one of those frogs comes into focus and you see them too. They're all over the place.
It's your nature that matters.
And the nature of reality matters. We live and we learn. So there is a place in your heart for the one. Peace comes from that conjunction.
It is only natural that we should listen and Rawat plastered his image over that conjunction - what a cheap tawdry massive and excruciating lie that is - and to perpetrate it upon so many all at once!
No you are the one who can say who it is.
The last time I saw the image of Rawat in my mind it was like yesterday's poster peeling off the subway wall.
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Ha! Love that idea, the poster peeling off the wall - I might use that visualisation in this evenings yoga class
Steve Hassan says that quite often, the people who survive coming out of a cult often end up being much stronger individuals than than those who never considered such an outrageously ridiculous thing (!) and afterwards, are invariably able to cope with life in ways others cannot. I guess he's qualified. I must confess, at the risk of sounding conceited, I think we do deserve a few pats on the back here. As a tiny example, just this morning I was having a conversation with a middle aged lady (like myself) who is stuck in a controlling dynamic with her ex & father of her child. I listened to her stories and thought silently to myself, wow I have been through this, dealt with it and am now thriving despite it. Upon reflection, that uninvited 18-month crash course, decorated with therapy, near-madness and despair was very far from in vein. It gave me the opportunity to slay the demons, the ones before the cult's sticking-plaster and the ones waiting at the door when I left (who had grown horns.) "Lets avvit!" I screamed at them eventually, just before they lost their power and scurried off to somewhere insignificant (hopefully not the subconscious :D) The crappy, as you say, 'excruciating' post-exit nightmare actually ended up healing some of my deepest, oldest wounds. Every cloud and all that.
Swans and frogs! Story of my life...everyones life maybe? I'd rather see what's really there than live in a facade but then, isn't it all subjective perception in the end? Truly, I have no idea, none. Best enjoy the ride while it lasts - somehow!
Good to connect - 3 jobs, raising my son, starting a degree in 2 weeks (full time) life is so busy..but I am so glad I can return here. It is very grounding. In October I will be 5 years out. I may open that champagne I've been saving.
Love X
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Thanks Newdawn. Yes all that stuff you haven't dealt with in a timely fashion because you've been too busy being a cult member - it is good to get it done, daunting as it is to start, it ends up feeling so much better. And yeah, totally agree, I'd rather see what's really there.
So I am having this conversation yesterday with a bridge player, she is in her 90's, still drives her car. There's a few of these women around here and i have to say I find them very entertaining - I think maybe it is that they are close to their young selves - but anyway so this person's name comes up and we both knew him from different places.
He was a con-man she declares and I tell her how surprised I was when the news came out as I'd had no idea. Yes, he was very charming, she replies and somehow it gets me and I am reminded of the deceptions I have fallen for and I look at her and say it took me a long time to understand about con-men, a long time, and then I choked up, it was an emotional moment and there was such understanding in her eye as she looked at me.
So when you ask isn't it all subjective perception well yes it is but it is still perception of reality.
You can be mistaken in your beliefs about what you are perceiving of course. That's why it's good to listen to your gut. But it's even better to get corroboration.
It's like the robber snails and the pippis. They are different shapes but they have the same pretty colours on their shells. Oh don't they look pretty I thought when I first saw the snail-shaped ones, a few among the many. Oh it must be the male of the species I think when I see them in couples floating in the waves, but it turns out the robber snail excretes a little bit of fluid on the shell of the pippi which makes a tiny hole and then the robber snail slowly sucks it's innards out.
There used to be fields of pippis in the sand as you walked the beach but years later and still there are very few and the robber snails have almost gone too. The robber snail needs the pippi but it's not like that for the pippi, it was just fine without it.
Yeah 5 years out, stronger than ever and thriving - seems to me that calls for champagne. wishing you all the best and good luck with everything. xoxox
Modified by lesley at Mon, Sep 18, 2017, 16:39:36
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Who knew what horror existed among molluscs!?! Heavens, is there no escape from the predators? How truly macabre.
Great stories, thank you - and for good wishes, which I send to you too.
Long live the pippis!
X
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When "non-physical suicide" came to mind, it was clearly based on self-abandonment, which I practically did overnight. But then I almost posted that it wasn't quite the same because as you said ( "knowledge of all knowledges" ), we were lured away from ourselves by the ultimate carrot and not a desire to die. But die I did, and if remnants of my former self tried to survive, I tried to stomp them out. One small example was my willingness to sleep on a sleeping bag for a mattress on a hardwood floor with five other guys doing the same thing in one room. "So this is my new life!" Really the true meaning of the sadistic camel dung ladu joke: "...feels (tastes) like shit but I'm going to do it (eat them) anyway because it's the ultimate knowledge/realization (they're the best ladus in the world!)." Rawat must have had a good laugh watching us eat his crap, which goes back to the "contempt" comments below Anyway... catching up to myself is what I try to do most every day... the best way to feel after throwing away so much. I've more or less forgiven myself because I can't imagine that I would have done anything differently given the same time and circumstances. Seeing you here along with Lesley, 13 and everyone else always makes me smile! Thankfully I got to "meet" you when I watched the television interview about cults that you bravely volunteered for.
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Sep 16, 2017, 06:47:49
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Hi Bob !!
What a nice little surprise to see you back...major heart lift for me as I check in with EPO today...I took a little time off myself...not feeling so great lately and always weary of spreading my darkness...
Anyway...I popped in and saw your name...13 and others too...and was just so happy to see old friends re connect...so glad you're doing well...I've sure missed you.
Just wanted to chime in on the "non physical suicide" you and Jethro are talking about. I call it "virtual suicide" in my book...when I talk about the countless times I've destroyed my life...or it's been destroyed for me. I like the term "self abandonment" too...very fitting I think, rings just as sad...and probably more accurate in so many of my cases. How great it is that we keep it the realm of surreal and are here to talk about it for real.
I'm sure that's exactly what my Dad was after, total abandonment of the self he'd become and despised. The guru's demands for total devotion and dismantling of the mind were just what he'd need to erase himself. I've been thinking a lot lately about what it takes to be a soldier...what being a Marine in the Vietnam War did to him...and how he got so lost in trying to live the opposite way when he got home...
The more I think about it, the more I see that he was probably always looking for the feeling of total freedom...the abandonment of past pain...the kind that only comes from death...and going through his own cycles of virtual suicide. He was trying to kill the soldier within and whatever that part of him had to do. And being told to forsake an abusive father for a child god, was probably a gift to him, not a hardship. I'm sure killing the son he was, felt like a huge burden lifted. Oh so logical and making perfect sense...until it doesn't. Until the suicide isn't virtual anymore.
The guru is just an enormous enabler of mental and soul unease. My Dad needed to erase himself and the guru helped him do it...but not even The Lord of the universe can erase the pain of war. I wish he would have had real help for the PTSD within the DLM instead of just painting it black...I coulda had a different story to tell.
There I go spilling out my sorrow...sorry...I really just wanted to let you know of my joy upon your return...great to see you back!
Love, Genny
P.s. All of you...on forgiveness... If you are here and free of him and talking about it and helping people like me every day...than you should absolutely be forgiving yourself 100% for the very fact that you're here. IMHO. In the book, I talk a little about how forgiveness, for me, is fluid. It gets lost sometimes, but feels so good when you accidentally stumble upon it in the middle of the night ...and put it back where it belongs. I also really love the idea that some things are simply unforgivable. It is of the divine after all and I like being human and low...don't know if I'll ever forgive the guru...don't plan on it...but I forgive my dad every day.
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"...I popped in and saw your name...13 and others too...and was just so happy to see old friends re connect..." Exactly how I felt and feel every time I see so many familiar posters here! The following quotes taken together... "The guru's demands for total devotion and dismantling of the mind were just what he'd need to erase himself... I see that he was probably always looking for the feeling of total freedom... the abandonment of past pain... the kind that only comes from death... the guru is just an enormous enabler of mental and soul unease." ... all ring so true. To understand my vulnerability to Rawat in the first place, I needed to understand the paradox of the pain I was in combined with my natural exuberance, perhaps a hallmark of many early premies (until Rawat wiped away the exuberance and left us with only buried conflict and plastic smiles!) I LOVED the perfect excuse to abandon myself... to dissolve my very identity into the amorphous and gaseous HIM -- the essence of ashram life. "You bring the DEATH of attachment. You bring the mind true detachment. Save us from our problem lives..." A perfect recipe for self abandonment and the unraveling of our very core. I have to say, though, as time goes on and I/we continue to reflect and deconstruct our involvement in such a twisted cult, I think it's true that the entire experience gave us a certain type of uncommon depth, wisdom and insight -- hyperactive bullshit meters? -- that serve us well. Your wisdom certainly shined in your post! Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Sep 22, 2017, 06:04:34
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Ved Praktakaaandnnannd I knew him only to say hello. He looked like the late Norm Felton, the actor He had was very fortgettable. Had a low tone to his boring satsange: God
is Lub. Lub is God. Very elementary. I heard he liked the girls.
I should say Ladies.
But many were young ladies in the 18-25 year old age group and a few were looking for some daddy love perhaps whatever that might be;
I’m not a lady; wouldn’t know. But these mahatmas that got sent back for bad behavior were usually involved in a “CONSENSUAL” act of some kind with some of the SISTERS. Who were the sisters? I
dunno. I just know that the roster of Indian Mahatmas frequently changed, like the Nats with so many on the DL this year.
So many young rooks were called up from Triple A to fill in the needs. Some just weren’t ready for major league pitching.
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He was the guy who got put in deep feeze!
http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/mahatmas/tosh/tosh.html
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