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Life. What a game. Is it still beautiful further down the
road, further away from the ‘Master’? And if your baby drowned down the
plughole, mangled by despair, can you grow a new one? Does it fit better? And
if anyone out there has, can you tell me, is it remotely trustable? I feel like
a character in Pullman’s ‘Dark Materials’ severed from its daemon. My baby of
faith and trust has gone, evaporated. So much for taking the, ‘Don’t throw the
baby out with the bathwater’ advice. I can’t remember feeling I had a choice.
It bolted, didn’t want to hang around for the dark days. And so utterly
attached to it had I been for such a long amount of time that I felt a
rebellious liberation in watching it leave. It was almost satisfying to stick
my proverbial two fingers up at its disappearing form as I drifted around in
its wake, flailing around for comfort. It didn’t disappear all at once, my
faith. No great plan, it petered off in dribs and drabs; a principal here, a
discipline there, a bit of hope lost, touch of gratitude turned away. I’m 4.5 years out.
Anyone got advice from a few years down the line? Making friends with the 'universe' again still feels like a mountain to climb. Very best, Newdawn.
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Almost all other areas of my life are going pretty well
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I don't make friends with people who want to push a belief system or religion on me. I have been there and done it.
"Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."
One has to determine what the baby is and the value of said baby having sat in the bathwater.
It's okay to throw away the Prem Rawat belief system as well as any rituals that may have been taught, including meditation, satsang, service, or whatever the hell Prem calls it these days.
My recommendation is that you post here for a while to see if you can iron the kinks out of your issues, doubts, fears, etc. Or not.
Folks are here who are willing to converse.
Just ask...
Be well,
Cynthia Gracie, Vermont
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Hi Cynthia and thanks.
I heard a quote on the radio the other day, 'I'd rather spend my whole life believing in god and when I die find out there isn't, than spend my whole life not believing and die to find out there is.'
It sparked a realisation in me that for quite some time now I've been quite seriously pissed off with the universe, punctuated with earnest yet slightly lack-lustre attempts at rekindling our relationship (thats with me and the universe, old friends we were in the good old days of course.) Being the speck of dust I am floating around on a rock in space and all (!) I realised its predictably futile waving my fist at the stars and have got on quite well in life, moving through the 5 stages and beyond (I think,) since the horrid shock in 2012. I witness the power and comfort of 'belief' in other people and recognise it for what it is, sometimes almost a little envious of the blindness. I am blessed to have much laughter and creativity in life but will admit there is a gaping gap where what I called the magic used to be. The detachment, 'floating,' the coping mechanisms I learned that gave me comfort have evaporated and whilst I don't wish to return to them (the price as we know is/was way too high) I lament the loss of that feeling of connection a little, that feeling of certainty that I'm on the right path, doing the right thing etc. that I used to have when my 'faith' was intact. I'm basically winging it and have been for some time. That said, the decisions I've made in recent years have been vastly more informed and empowering than ever before so I must be doing something right.
Perhaps I'm just interested if anyone can offer insight as to how not to become a grumpy old cynic in matters of a spiritual nature? In the darker days, thankfully now few, I can imagine how easy it could be.
I hope this doesn't sound too depressing(!) I'm actually doing pretty good (honestly!) Maybe I'm just observing the generic human condition after having spent all my adult life in a cult and just need to get used to it. Its a funny old place the world isn't it, without a comfort blanket.
I hope these ramblings make some sort of sense. I'm away to the english countryside for the weekend, maybe that'll sort me out, a bit of fresh air and cows.
Blessings!
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Hi Newdawn, I think I waver in and out of existential angst often enough to appreciate your words. But just when I think I am destined for eternal funk, I am surprised by the simplest things.
In recent years I have taken to reading...alot. I only read non fiction and I love learning now. I also have taken up low-level art collecting and developing a keen eye . For years I have been a lover of music...all forms, and go out to see live shows often. My kids are both over 30 and still love me, as I do them. I am married to the same woman I met 35 years ago (at the Broad Ripple no less). And I have a totally new focus towards the spirit world that has nothing to do with gurus, swamis or religion.
These are bits and pieces of the returning me that I never would have thought valuable years ago as a premie. These things that I enjoy, now give me a wonderful sense of meaning and place in the universe.
I have no need for the fantasy world that premies seem to exist in day to day. And as for Rawat-World (phony theme-park in the sky) his entire epic charade (and our blistering entanglement) finally made perfect sense one day...when I allowed myself to say "He's a fraud and sociopathic manipulator of the highest order". Simple as that.
Having lunch once in a while with another ex is also helpful. We're much more likeable without all that old baggage. Fresh air and cows, English countryside ! Sounds wonderful.
Cheers, Mark B
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Thank you Mark. It's probably a totally new focus towards the spirit I'm working towards, or waiting for..one of the two. I am naturally a very focussed person so this no-mans land is uncomfortable for me. It's probably just a phase(!)
Your post is inspiring, you sound very level headed and it brings hope. I don't want to drift and settle into a funky grump.
Very much appreciate you taking the time to respond.
Back from the cows, we were lucky with the weather. It was so beautiful. It's school holidays hence the delay -have since done Blackpool Waterpark, now that washed out some cobwebs.
Happy Easter  Apparently Jesus rose from the dead - does that make christianity zombie-worship, I'm confused.
Ps. Re new skills I think this this wholly important. I've been accepted onto a full time degree course doing what I love starting in October. I never finished drama school because I met the guru whilst studying. Hoping this will be a new start.
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Wow that sounds wildly exciting and a lovely way to have a fresh start, doing something you love and recognising that the desire to do it hadn't gone anywhere going for it ! well done Wishing you all the best with that.
Holidays sound nice. I had a quiet Easter. I had time to contemplate... death and rebirth, compassion and healing, inward reflections. Jesus was revered for healing and compassion before he died and rose and still is today. I wondered if the ji is made painfully aware every Easter, of his own not so everlasting life and legacy? Maybe the cognac takes care of that. Never mind, whether he feels it or not the fact remains-the best part of the world takes a holiday- more than 2000 years later
Yup Prem, Lord Jesus is still King
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praise the lord you are destined to become a grumpy old cynic. we need as much of that as we can get! 
I have a friend who is fond of quoting a friend of hers who said when she first met him so which one are you, one of the people being done over or one of the people doing the doing over.
And her reply was well I was hoping not to be either. And I agree with her, that's what I hoped for too and many of us do - we're the ones being done over and hoping to get good enough to turn the tables once in a while.
dreadful world. goodness the other day I was thinking we grew up with the maxim make love not war - forget all this self love, when it comes down to it how genuinely loveable are people? Not everyone is loveable through and through.
Believing in Maharaji gave me a sense of security. All in God's hands. Within the cult we were encouraged to be trusting. And well you know we were and there's a lot that's good about that. But it came at the expense of eroding the trust in our own selves. In our own developing thoughts and perceptions.
Here I am with a bad tenant and sometimes I feel scared. And at such times I feel so comforted in my soul that it spreads a good chemistry right through me.
And so I have a sense of security from doing all the right things once you're in such a situation and then I just have it. I start chattering away in my head and something works for me.
yes cows and english countryside. that has got to be good.
Thank you for the blessings.
Modified by lesley at Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 22:18:39
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Thanks for the laugh! Yes maybe the world needs grumpy old cynics after all & this is in nature's natural order. Bah!
Having to reply on the phone anyway as my son has commandeered the laptop whilst devouring Oreo eggs (yum)
It's so much about security isn't it - most probably the same reason I posted here..to know I'm not alone in this loop-de-loop. As long as we have connection to other people some how folks seem to do ok. I wish I'd done it a bit earlier actually, but then trying to scrape back some kind of life has been all-consuming & multi tasking has never been a strong point of mine. Handling/dealing with trauma inevitably has to get shelved from time to time.
Thank you sincerely for your response x
Modified by Newdawn at Sun, Apr 16, 2017, 03:51:25
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yes, it's a lot about security. I do believe we have an instinctive search for our soulmate going on in the thick of it all. That's where God fits in, why we were so easily fooled into accepting 'Maharaji' as young adults. It appears to be the solution yet nothing could be further from the truth.
If you look at a brain it is astonishing how separate the two hemispheres are, they'd flop apart if it wasn't for the skull. It's like our left hand doesn't know what our right hand is doing, and it seems to me that we need a constant interplay of instincts and logic to keep it all connected up - but there is this Achilles heel which working well makes us the best we can be but also is why it's so easy to throw a spanner in the works.
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Ha!
Visions of flopping :D
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"...I lament the loss of that feeling of
... certainty that I'm on the right path, doing the right thing etc. that I
used to have when my 'faith' was intact. I'm basically winging it and have been
for some time..." Hi
NewDawn -- I understand that lament, the feeling of disorientation with lacking the constant
sense of an unshakable certainty of direction, the vector of reality being
continually reinforced from the wise Master and all that. I miss the great engaging sense that my
efforts in "service" are given to actual uplifting of the human
condition. That was such an
invigorating energizer. But maybe what you're calling "winging it" is the more sane, pragmatic,
more useful and appropriate way through life, the natural way, the careful way,
the wiser way. A big human problem is how one can very easily, often, and
with full accepted certainty or often just on quick impulse, wander mentally
across into the vast zones of one's own incompetence at knowing, and lodge
there, immigrate and encamp, make a home for life there in the land of
blind-false-certainty, with full confidence -- just going there on one's own or
guided by another's incompetence or even by other's evil intent. It's a great human weakness (or prompting to betterment?!) -- pretending certainty
(though useful in some circumstances, and really to just always proceed on
one's nearest approximation of certainty), but not being able to be aware where
exactly is the limit of one's own competence at knowing...knowing something,
anything, in specifics, generalities, intuitions, practical decisions, ways of
thinking, perhaps in most everything unaware of the limits of one's own
competence at "knowing". Aren't we always winging it, going on our own best wit. ...specifically whenever
intent on not accepting as one's own certainty the often unfounded and blind
comfort of whole-swallowing others' beliefs and others' "certainty"
or others' confident guidance. This is just to draw some working contrast
between going it on your own alert thinking versus the "swallowing",
even that swallowing received from the formidable published great philosophers,
or even the habit often of swallowing whenever prompted by casual ungrounded
words, cliches, or memes and publicly agreed upon accepted thinking. Although
there's surely often a right time for accepting insightful lead and incorporating
practical knowledge from others.
Anyway, why not "become a grumpy old cynic in matters of a spiritual
nature"...and just explore wherever else free interest investigations
might explain things -- the baby left intact after you throw out the bathwater.
Whatdya think? Caveat:
Buyer beware -- Personally I'm of course not entirely sure whether or not I've
overstepped my competence to say any of the above. Since graduating from utter unquestioning "faith" in Prem Rawat's "message"
or "knowledge", and guidance, I've been getting better acquainted
with accepting my not knowing all the commonly-understood basic theories and
anchors of human existence in the Universe. ...trying to
replace circumscribed Knowing with what in my own way I like to call
"thinking". Maybe this develops my critical abilities a bit, at least to being slightly more
thoughtful about the boundary of my competence at Knowing things. Might
even make me eventually less of a prig. ...finding it pretty comfortable
and more and more interesting.
Modified by tarvuist at Sat, Apr 08, 2017, 16:26:55
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What a great post, thanks for taking the time.
As an aside, or off at a tangent maybe, the majority of premies were English/American with minorities of French, Italians, Dutch, Germans etc. When at those many programs in Rome I was always struck by how few 'native' premies were there.
When I went to live in Italy & got to know the language a bit, there's this word convinto (convinced), which when applied with a roll of the eyes or a little chuckle, is used as an adjective to describe anyone who has absolute opinions on just about anything, especially if they are expressed in a vehement way.
I found this highly irritating as the English language requires a phrase such as mad as a hatter, there are many more, to give the same idea. All those can be argued against because they imply some kind of mental deficiency, & as we all know there can be truth around the edges of madness. Thus it's possible to reply with...hang on a minute, what about, etc.
Not so with convinced. I wonder whether Italians of our revolutionary generation, when satsanged, just muttered convinto to themselves & passed on by.
There's more to the word than was ever dreamed of in his philosophy.
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What good posts. The wrinkle I'd like to add is the layer of conviction. More real than real. It's not the same as belief.
I don't know of it ever being wrong. While I believed in Rawat and did not question that belief my convinto came and knocked me on the head with a technicolour dream that said no he is a charlatan and you are in the muck and you need to help yourself.
I'll never forget waking up that morning, thinking about the activities of the day, the sound of the birds and the creek, the early morning sunshine flooding the room, the trees waving green against the sky.
This was reality and it was a relief to be back in it.. or was it. Disturbingly the dream which in it's depiction could not actually have happened (Rawat in a white robe and his feet didn't touch the ground?) felt more real than the daily world around me and I was left with a dilemma. Tempting as it was to embrace my daily activities and refuse to be scared by a fanciful dream, there was no real question as to what I had to do, my inner child needed me.
fascinatingly, I went through that whole process, a series of dreams - seeing Rawat as a monster and teaming up with others to defeat him, rescuing my mum but failing to get her to safety and her rescuing me - I arrived the other side still shaking but with a soul deep sense of safety and yet my belief in La Rawat was still in place! !! with hindsight that seems very surprising.
It didn't last. But for a while there I felt very small and a bit confused and then I found here so that was okay and it was a great relief to get this consistent corroboration that Rawat was a monster and not a messiah. My dream really was realer than real.
Yes, as Tarvuist described so well - how easily confidence can be accidentally misplaced, let alone in the preserve of the conman.
I think sometimes this idea you don't know much is used against you by someone who doesn't want you to know what you know. doesn't want you to have confidence in your logical thought process. doesn't want you to put two and two together and make 4 - no how do you know it doesn't make 5? oh well I suppose it could make 5 if we got some ectoplasm involved....
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I lament the loss of that feeling of connection a little, that feeling of certainty that I'm on the right path, doing the right thing etc. that I used to have when my 'faith' was intact. I'm basically winging it and have been for some time.
Why not transfer that feeling of certainty to the breath, the Holy Spirit. All religions see Spirit as the right path that leads to doing the right thing. Google Bible and spirit. See John 4:24 for advice direct right from Jesus.
I just casually googled the following article: http://www.breathmastery.com/spiritual-breathing-2/
And when it comes right down to it aren't we all just winging it, even Mr. Rawat.
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...against the obfuscating dullness of religion and spirituality.
Modified by tarvuist at Sat, Apr 15, 2017, 23:00:55
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Bob Marley was a Rastafarian quoting Marcus Garvey in Redemption song. I am not religious.
http://www.the-open-mind.com/7-differences-between-religion-and-spirituality-1/
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Hello NewDawn and thanks for posting. There have been times where I have despaired of the effects of trauma in ways you describe. It took a decision to try to find ways, practical steps, to love myself and to trust myself. I didn't need to throw the baby out after all it turned out, my connection with divinity didn't altogether die with my now dead relationship with the Ji. I had some how handed my power to him on a plate. And that's what he lives off, that's his narcissistic supply.
I had to choose to take back what was rightfully mine all along and discover new beginnings in each new step. Of course I falter, it's a whole new paradigm, but that in itself holds some excitement- because of hope. I believed in a creator when I met him and I still do, that much didn't change, fundamentally my experiences were all down to me in the end, the power I attributed to him was exaggerated, what I felt and understood was just me, interacting with my comprehension of divinity. He's a narcissistic prat with a few Sidi tricks up his sleeve, a morally bankrupt master of hiding in the dark.Looking back I'm stunned that i fell for the idea that one could meditate one's life and the world into peace. The only service was to him, not to each other or the world.If we did help one another it was to get to a program, if we gave any money to the PR sanctioned one because that charity made a medium size hall serving lentils in India. Cost a pretty penny I bet. Also it would have to have been the premies that set it up, I mean come on. There are stoic battlers out there who do more in their lives on a daily basis to bring love to their surroundings and find peace and gratitude in that, just to be able to help. I'd rather be like them that have my head under a blanket and a brolly up my bum, schlepping around trying to get my fix of perfect master drool while the world goes to hell in a hand basket. So I took my leaving as an ultimately empowering step, I had to choose that. I'd already chosen disempowerment as a way of seeing myself in my life and that didn't work out so well , so I had to look for new habits and new life lines. Whatever gets you through the night... it's alright
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Thank you sincerely for these responses. I am slowly digesting it all. This forum is a haven.x
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Hi New Dawn, Very poignant post, thanks. Suzy Q’s “fundamentally my experiences were all down
to me in the end, the power I attributed to him was exaggerated, what I felt
and understood was just me, interacting with my comprehension of divinity.”
resonates very strongly with me. GMJ was a prop, and that beautiful earnestness that sponsored all of
our wonderful impulses were our own, except that we mistakenly objectified him and
the catechism he brought us as the source.
So it’s very, very easy for us to demonize our youthful earnestness and
wonderful impulses due to that powerful linkage with him and what we have come
to understand about him and his truth-lite messaging. Personally, I think belief, faith and even hope are overrated
in the ontological world, but on the other hand, that accessing inner stillness
is not. I think to avoid meditation and
any other form of quieting down and introspection is to avoid one’s own self. However, quieting down can mean that those deeply-help
traumas that are nestled out of sight (yet continue to drive our behavior that tends to
make messes in our lives) get the chance to bubble up into awareness to be
looked at, and hopefully dealt with. Staying
busy from dawn to dusk is a viable option to keep those demons at bay, and “spiritual
bypassing” (using so-called ‘spiritual practice’ to avoid unresolved internal
wounds and even justify bad behavior) is another way to go in the realm of avoidance
and ineffectual healing. Here is an alternate (kinda dumbed down) way to look at a
few of the words used on this thread so far: BELIEF: Make meaning by condensing parts of reality into
a conceptual framework (to file neatly away in the brain) towards avoiding the
confusion of complexity FAITH: place one’s hope in a belief HOPE: anticipation of the fruition of one’s beliefs/hopes
in the future Belief dumbs down the universe, faith perpetuates the
stupidity, and hope extends its shelf life, all to avoid ‘what is’, at least in
the present moment. I will say, on the other hand, that love is real, and its
apprehension absolutely does not require belief, faith nor hope. For me, love (and its counterparts) is the baby, and all
of the religion, mythology and bullshit that distracts from its effulgence in
the present moment is the bathwater. Our demons can get exorcised and put behind us, because
somehow at the heart of this mysterious, brutal, yet fucking beautiful universe is
love. And it’s not easy (at least for
me), and we will always be works in progress, which is actually not so bad and
quite interesting. So these are just my thoughts, but I do have a little
advice: Take it easy on yourself. All of
us on this Forum got swept up in the stupidity, and for good reason (timing
being everything and all). But it was
not all wasted time and energy, and there was very good stuff while we were
there (however embarrassing the circumstances), and the good stuff was always
ours and is still ours (even within inside us). The baby lives!! M
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Thanks, Mike, that was great. And to our new poster: HELLO NEWMAN
. . . It'll take a bit to spit the bit completely, but you'll be okay, I was. Roark, too. Oh, it's NEW DAWN, I'm sorry.
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Some of these responses are beyond what I could have expected. I forgot how much you guys get it (!!!) The detail! Talk about on the money. Thank you from my battered soul.
I will reply in more detail but only have my phone with me here in the countryside. Apart from my middle-aged eyesight threatening to annoy, the autocorrect on this thing could drive any rational person to near suicide.
I will think of you all in the sun today, thankful I reached out here once again. I don't feel quite so alone (with this) today. Once again, thank you.
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I'm glad you posted again too, Newborn, 'cos if you hadn't I wouldn't have been inspired to see if you'd posted here before (thought your name rang a bell). So glad to find you posted a 'Journey' - a very clear and well-written one too. Hope your break in the countryside is helping. If the weather's anything like it's been up here in Durham, it should!
Related link: http://ex-premie.org/pages/journs/newdawn.htm
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I didn't read all the other responses but I remember feeling as you do back then. Even today, 40 years later or so, I can go to bed and just for a second feel guilty I didn't meditate. Life is more magical without the Guru taking credit for what was ours all along. I very often, am blown away by beauty and insights. I very often feel there is "something" . Friendships aren't less, they are more. I feel that sense of connectedness I felt as a premie and lost for a while. I know I felt a sense of grief after I left in many ways. So long ago but I wanted to write that. I think your baby is just fine and you'll feel all those things you want to feel but you won't be lying to yourself to feel them.
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Modified by Jethro at Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 01:16:33
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Newdawn
Don't be afraid of the Dark as there is ALWAYS a New Dawn...and many beautiful things can be found there. Probably your greatest personal truths. Religion is a group experience, and spiritual awareness is a very personal one, and most spiritual journeys are downright lonely. Unless of course you understand that the divine is within, not without.
My experience is vastly different from yours, and I hesitated for days in posting to you, knowing full well that everyone else here would have way better things to say, but I couldn't stop thinking about you. Maybe because we're the same age, or maybe because I actually do know a thing or two about being spiritually lost. And how very very ok that is.
Understanding astrology has helped me, especially North Node stuff. North Node is our spiritual guide and it really comes into play around mid life...check it out, you might find great comfort there. Given your age, I'd guess that it's knocking at your door for attention. Without getting too weird, Pluto is doing stuff right now too that will compel all of us to look closer at our Shadow sides...to deal with stuff long pressed down, and it could take it upon itself to completely deconstruct our lives, rid us of anything that doesn't serve us anymore, and rebuild from whatever ashes are left. You sound like you're feeling the effects of that, and it will pass.
I wrote this lil poem to comfort myself one day. Without knowing my whole story some of it won't make sense but you'll get the gist, and maybe a little comfort too.
I never heard of autocorrect driving anyone to near suicide, but I do know of several beaten down brainwashed premies who were driven to it...so I'm glad you're here to feel your growing pains, and I'm glad you're coming to this site for tips on dealing with them. Be well, Genny
Losing My Religion
Amazing Grace How sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me
I once was lost But now am found Was blind, but now I SEE
Inheritance Came way too soon Was much too young to read
Your signs were there All along The Gift was still a seed
Who knows how far Things could have gone If left Whole, just to Be
We may have saved The world, but then It broke when he left me
To see his death The day before Was crazy pain to bear
I didn't tell A single soul Went black and couldn't share
You tried to teach Me how it feels But I just couldn't know
The day I cried And sparked the Sight Felt nothing like Your Glow
I thought I'd try Another way No God, No Gifts to use
You take so much From little girls And You, I tried to lose
I turned my back On Your sweet Gifts Just please leave me alone
You never left Just gave me time To find You on my own
Amazing Grace How sweet the Sound That saved a wreck like me
You came in Dreams Could not deny "Accept your Legacy"
I met a Witch Along my way Who showed me so much more
Religion's not The only Way Your path, you must explore
You know that Christ Is not for you And Gurus will deceive
Our Mother Earth Retains the Keys And Moon has tales to weave
They dance around The Sun for us And show us who we are
And how to Love The other ones Who share our lonely Star
With that new sight I heard much more And couldn't not Believe
The city became Way too loud I knew had to leave
The Mountains called And off I went To find some peace from Noise
You got louder Instead of calm And gave me some new Toys
Can do it all But nothing well "So what's your specialty?"
Just Listen well Sit back and Feel And let the Gift use me
Amazing Grace How sweet Your Sounds Saving a mess like me
I turned You down But had no choice You came and set me Free
The Roads that lead To You are vast No exclusivity
You dwell within Each One of us And spark Kundalini
We look outside Ourselves sometimes And wonder where You are
There's so much pain You must be gone Just look at all the scars
Life should be hard It's why we're here To balance the Beyond
But when I need To soothe myself I dip in Your Sweet Pond
The pain is not Derived from You It's our best way to heal
The Karmic holes We made one time You know they're ours to feel
The Love is real The pain's real too Must be a cosmic joke
It's up to Us Not up to You To fix the things We Broke
But You are there To show us how To mend the breaks and holes
You shed the Light On Miracles And soothe our gentle Souls
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To everyone who offered responses and support here, thank you so much. I was hoping to go through and reply to each one individually - it has been school holidays and a host of activities kept me from being able to. When there is so much wisdom, detail and understanding it's almost overwhelming to reply, I can't find the words. I just want you to know how much I appreciate the ones you have shared with me...I have been reading them over and digesting slowly. It is a process, as all of you of course, know. I will be posting here again soon, so grateful to John and all of you.Thanks again, Newdawn.
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As I come a go these day, yours was the first post I read since the last time I left. Magnificent. It captured the spirit of so much of how I feel four years ahead of you - really the beauty of being out of the cult and (thankfully and finally) back to where I was before I got swept up in it: ordinary, hopeful, up, down, striving and on and on. Brilliant in my own mind but now wise enough to challenge every thought: a hundred more "babies" down the drain. My advice is to enjoy being real and genuine again. For me that includes all my extreme flaws and fractures -- the things that make me... me. Beautiful post! Bob
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