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Spark, the correlation between addiction and abusive family models with cult involvement is something that has been touched on in the forums over the years, however I don't think that it would be correct to characterise Rawat's followers as having been exclusively from dysfunctional homes - in fact many premies seem to have ended up rejecting caring and supportive families rather than escaping abusive ones. But perhaps that is not the connection you were intending ? The puzzle for followers - at least those of us who became involved in the early 70s, is that while Rawat 'the abusive drunk' provides an explanation for the cult as 'the toxic family of an addict' that the Rawat movement can be described as from the late 70s onwards, it does not explain the nature of the cult while Rawat was a child/adolescent. Yet there were undoubtedly elements of the 'alcoholic family' in DLM long before Rawat is said to have hit the bottle. It is also important to point out that Rawat's own children seem to have a close relationship with their father; perhaps Rawat has managed to protect his children from the direct toxity of his own addictions (alcohol, possessions, adulation) by directing his personal demons onto his followers and sparing his kids his more destructive attention. Still the equation premie = alcoholic enabler certainly stands worthy of examination. Nik
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In the small amount of reading I did for that post, the term "alchoholic" seemed to rapidly expand to include "abusive" or "dysfunctional". Of course that then seems to cast a rather wide net which is a problem in itself.I am not sure I was trying to make a specific connection as much as I was exploring the dimensions of this for me and wondering how much it fits for others. In my self exploration, I look for patterns that repeat themselves in my life so that I can illuminate underlying images and beliefs that are inhibiting my ability to function in successful ways. I had not exactly thought of it in terms of how m got to be the way he is, but that is an interesting consideration. I did think of it in terms of exploring what was similar between my birth family experience and my "cult family" experience. I also wonder if by joining the "cult family" we don't over time take on some of the atributes even if we did not have them from our childhood experience. As for enabling, there is no question in my mind that I had a hand in enabling m and accept that in taking responsibility for the role that I played in this particular creation. The equation you so susinctly express is a part of that consideration for me.
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without any Religious conotatoins and easier said that done Forgive and forget . Jim Morrison "learn to Forget " forgiving & forgetting = letting go = anger fades however no one is completely free . pshchology is not an exact science so all that mental thinking and observation leads to a conclusion that is allways a MAYBE to much thinking is not forgetting of course this is for me maybe not for you but for me to much thinking impeades forgetting and all I ever get is a maybe and more circullar thinking and rehashing and not forgetting whitch makes forgiving more difficult a Greek Philosopher said "Touch a broken heart as little as you would a wounded eye " Psychology = psychi ;gk for soul but pshychology is a mind study not a soul study to me psychotherapy just keeps examining the wounds and poking at them are you healed ?are you healed ? times up that wil lbe $60 do you want to schedule for next week So I can poke at your pain again? that is my take .I am so glad to be free psycho free I love speaking English again it is a wonderfull lanquage I really wish I never heard psycho babble in my life I was doin'fine before I ever heard that mindfukin stuff . Now that I think in English again I feel GREAT . Now I have to forgive any one that ever spoke psyco babble to me but funny thing is I forgot all about it so all then is forgiven it is not there One day in 78 I asked someone How are you ? she replied "I am trying to recover from the TRAUMA of birth " GEE OK to bad I don't remember that ! HOPE they are better NOW Please bear with me here because I am gonna sound like an ass . I am sick and tired of hearing people that are in thier 30's 40's 50's & god forbide thier 60's healing their inner child .Do they not stop and think that if they aint done it by now that GEE just maybe GEE something aint workin and just maybe they ought to consider trying somthing eles , like maybe speaking and thinking in English ? TRY iT you'll like it Mikie did !
Modified by geo at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 10:50:54
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Geo, My instinctive reaction is that most people's inner child is simply in need of a damn good slap. And certainly getting away from 'special language' and using every day speech (be it English or some other native tongue) is essential to getting past the 'magical thinking' inherent in cult spiel. However I'm not dismissive of the value of psychotherapy influenced Counselling nor of the inevitable need for an individual to use symbolic language to describe present hurt. My take is that when, in later life people refer to the unhappiness of their childhood, they are simply taking an expressable 'hurt' from the past as being symbolic of their current unhappiness - which is too painful to address directly. Of course much talk about 'inner child' and 'healing' is merely exhibitionist and indulgent but human beings do experience psychological 'hurt', not least as part of cult involvement. Counselling/Therapy may well be an important part of the exiting process for some people. An interesting point about the meaning of psyche is that to the ancient Greeks the separation of mind/soul would be meaningless. Rawat of course does not use the term soul but the idea of a 'split' somewhere in our 'inner life' remains inherent in the belief system he promotes. My view is that is a harmful notion which promotes a schizophrenic approach to the self. Nik
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You have a very good point .Like I said "it was for me maybe not for you " and yes what I did was like a slap .On the extreme are the scientologist's use of pshycotherapy see the cults web site,with them one never gets healed ,cleared.For me the mind is a very useful tool sometimes we put way to much importance on it again that is my opinion .Sure therapy is useful I hope for some and in some cases but it seems to be taking or attempting to take over our culture again my opinoin
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In the post that started this thread, I had not been thinking so much about the "inner child" when I was contemplating childhood, but rather I was looking for the roots of dysfunctional patterns that have not been identified, properly understood, or resolved. As I can identify these patterns, I can perhaps discover hidden images and beliefs that worked in the past but do not serve me in the present and sabotage my attempts to achieve the goals that I set for myself.Having recently completed a basic college level 1010 psychology course, it is curious to note that our primary cultural perception of the science and practice of psychology revolves around Freud's psychoanalytic (talk therapy) model. There is, however, a rich spectrum of exploration in the discipline psychology which includes, among others, the study of human and animal behavior, cultural structures/world views, and electrochemical brain physiology. All of which reveal information which is very helpful in sorting out the basis for dysfunctional behavior. In addition there are rich cultural heritages from around the world that have nothing to do with talk yet seem to support the process of resolving traumatic experience and physical, emotional and spiritual pain very well. In todays world there are a tremendous number of effective therapies available which do not focus on the mind as the principle element. As for "slapping the inner child", there is sufficient evidence to show that abuse in any form is ultimately counterproductive. While it may produce short term results that appear to solve the problem, the prognosis for long term success is very slim. I think that m is in the process of very effectively demonstrating that truth for us. Any child, inner or outer, is best served through good boundary setting, adult guidance and love. As I try to sort out the meaning and experience of "cult" for myself, I am struck by how they seem to take something useful and valuable and distort and pervert it to serve bad ends. The real damage is the corruption of an inherently healthy process. For those who are left to sort out the results, there is an impulse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. As an example from my own personal experience, m took a very basic experience of consciously being aware of certain internal processes and associated them with a distorted perception of him to serve his own needs for love, adoration and wealth. Now that I have recognized that distortion, I am left with the problem of having a very basic a personal experience associated with something that is apparently distorted and not true. In the process of calling into doubt my perceptions of m, by association I am also calling into doubt my own personal experience. Needless to say discounting my own personal experience is tremendously destabilizing and potentially life threatening, so I am forced to sort one from the other. As they have become so intertwined over time, sorting it all out is proving to be a challenge. IMHO
Spark
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keep going Spark I am probably not able to help you much thru this , but keep on going tell you break on thru .
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>As for "slapping the inner child", there is sufficient evidence to show that abuse in any form is ultimately counterproductive< Perhaps something got lost in transatlantic translation - my comment about slapping the inner child is what passes for humour in these grey isles  Nik
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Phew, it was a joke. Here I was having a good chuckle over slapping the inner child. Excuse me while I go slap the inner Maharaji.
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Yes that would be numbers:
5. have difficulty having fun.
6. take themselves very seriously.From my other post.Thanks for the dope slap!
(grin)
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Hi Spark, Thanks for your posting all of that, but you don't have to reinvent the wheel. There are many cult awareness websites that explan the nature of mind control and thought reform. While there may appear to be similarities, addiction isn't the same as cult membership. People become involved in cults due to a particular vulnerability they may have, but the vulnerability isn't a single characteristic, or one size fits all type of thing. A person could be a naive young person, someone else may want to belong to a movement, someone else may be feeling lonely. It could be any vulnerability that the cults and their leaders prey upon to recruit them and keep members. The ultimate goal is to keep the leader in money and power. Cult recruits come from all walks of life and backgrounds. Here's a webite that offeres information to exiting members about what it is that happened to them. This page offers an explanation of the characteristics of destructive cults: http://www.refocus.org/charcult.html This website gives an explanation of why being in a cult isn't the same as AA (ACOA), as well as more general characteristics of personality cults: http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html Hope this helps, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 05:39:07
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But I am so Glad to free of pshycology .OK I am OK you are OK OK OK OK OK I just want to be free OK OK I am FREE OK BE FREE
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I think you once posted a letter from a cult expert to a person who had recently left. I found it very very good. I know I saved it on my computer but I can't remember where. If you recall if maybe a link to it might be nice for Spark?
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Letter to a Former Member of a Meditation GroupExecutive DirectorEditor, Cultic Studies ReviewThe following is adapted from a letter Dr. Michael Langone wrote to a former member of a meditation group, who was reconnecting himself to Christianity. Dr. Langone worked with the former member and his family and wrote the letter in lieu of a formal report, which the family had requested. Details have been changed to protect confidentiality. The letter raises a number of issues that are relevant to many former members of cultic groups, regardless of whether or not they practiced forms of meditation.
Dear Your mother asked me to give her a report on our consultation time together. Because I do not want you to feel that I am withholding information from you, I am writing this report in the form of a letter to you, with a copy to your mother. Please recognize that I provide my views with a deep appreciation for the complexities and subtleties of your mind, soul, and experiences. Therefore, I ask that you and your family treat this letter as a collection of ideas to think about and talk about among yourselves, not as a set of scripture-like statements from an "expert." You are the only expert on you. I ask only that you consider carefully and not hastily reject what I offer here. Reflect upon my thoughts, call me if you wish to ask questions, discuss these issues with your parents, and then make your own decision about what to do. My thoughts are presented with humility and respect for your intelligence and spiritual sensitivity. You mentioned that you sometimes have difficulty sustaining your concentration when you read (an experience that many former members of cultic groups report). Therefore, I ask that you please read this letter several times and on different days. Keep in mind the fundamental law of communication: "The message received is not necessarily the message sent." Please double-check to make sure that what you think I said ("message received" ) is indeed what I said ("message sent" ). Thanks. Let me begin by discussing what I think are your primary assets. First of all, you have soothing warmth, conveyed by your smile and body manners. Given that your mother is similar to you in this respect, I suspect that your warmth is part of your character and the base of whatever purity of mind you have been able to achieve (probably more important than any beneficial contribution your meditation may have made). Second, you obviously have a sincere and deep desire to be spiritual and good. Third, you're creative and intelligent, which gives you the potential to be adaptively flexible. And lastly, you're still relatively young and have plenty of time to get your life back on track. Many ex-members begin to rebuild their lives in their late 30s or 40s. Indeed, over the years the average age of people in our ex-member workshops has been about 36. My conversations with your mother and you clearly indicate that, perhaps to your surprise (or perhaps you may be reluctant to admit it, even to yourself), she wants for you, in large part, what you want for yourself. You may sometimes think she worries too much. You're right; she does. But, after all, she is a mother! She wants what all loving mothers want for their children: that they feel good about themselves, have friends, choose a satisfying and productive vocation, and fall in love and raise a family. You, of course, would add getting close to God to this list of life goals. In the various eastern meditative paths, the emphasis is on applying the proper technique to achieve particular internal states of mind ("purity of mind" seems to have been the goal you were pursuing). In Christianity the emphasis is upon achieving a proper relationship with God and our fellow humans. Purity of mind expresses itself through relationships with people. Indeed, it is only through relationships with people that purity of mind proves itself; without this accountability it may be nothing more than self-delusion. Prayer and Christian meditation are vital to achieving purity of mind and the loving relationships that accompany it. But in Christianity, relationship with others, not internal experience, is central. Following an eastern path focused on inner experience accentuated, in my opinion, your tendencies to isolate yourself psychologically, tendencies that I suspect existed even before you began meditating. I also suspect that you may have "overdosed," so to speak, on meditation. Certainly, the spiritual literature of the East has many references to possible adverse effects of meditation (e.g., "Zen sickness" ). In psychotherapy, as I may have mentioned, there is even a literature on what is paradoxically called "relaxation induced anxiety" (i.e., heightened states of anxiety, or even in some cases psychotic reactions, precipitated in some people by hypnotic forms of relaxation exercises). Let me draw an analogy to hallucinogenic drug experiences: I have known cases of people who initially had pleasant "trips" on LSD or Mescaline. After one or two "bad trips," however, things changed. They could not take the drug without re-experiencing the negative or at the least having it lurking fearfully in the background of their experience. They became sensitive to the negative that poisoned forever whatever positives they had experienced—and they stopped the drugs. I think your experience with meditation is similar. And that is why you may not be able to return to that form of meditation without running a considerable risk of harming yourself. So please, consider other paths to God. Meditation is not the only pathway. In my opinion your search for God has two dimensions. On the one hand, your spiritual searching is genuine, deep, and persisting. On the other hand, your searching can sometimes mask a spiritual pride that prolongs your psychological isolation. It seems to me that the pride portion of your spiritual searching compensates for the very understandable discouragement you probably feel with regard to your capacity to achieve the life goals of intimacy, vocation, friends, self-esteem, and spiritual identity. Such discouragement is very common among former members of groups. Indeed, it is common among all people who, for whatever reason, don't achieve these basic life goals in early adulthood. Society is structured such that young adults (mainly because of the time they spend in school) have ample opportunity to meet members of the opposite sex, to commit themselves to vocations, and to mingle with diverse types of people. This broad social experience provides young adults an opportunity to learn the rules of and become comfortable in social interactions. Nearly all young adults lack confidence in their capacity to achieve the basic life goals. But through trial, and error and with the support of the social structure, they pin down a vocation, learn to mix with people, and develop intimate relationships. Through these achievements, they strengthen self-esteem. Many also develop a spiritual identity that may stay with them throughout life. Unfortunately, enduring difficulties sometimes arise for those young adults whose personality or circumstances prevent them from achieving the life goals during young adulthood (e.g., because of unresolved psychological trauma, serious deficits in vocational/academic or social skills, a depth of spiritual searching that goes far beyond the norm). My work with former cult members has sensitized me to the ways in which spiritual seekers get knocked off their life paths. Our pluralistic culture tolerates a spiritual "marketplace" in which hucksters, charlatans, sophists, and incompetents in western and eastern spiritual traditions compete with ethical and sensible spiritual teachers. Because there are no rules in this marketplace and because so many spiritual "consumers" are so ignorant about spiritual sophistry and psychological manipulation, the most successful competitors are often the cultic groups that are skilled in salesmanship and public relations. Frequently, spiritual seekers join up with a particular group or teacher not because they have systematically and thoroughly studied the range of options open to them, but because they happened to have come into contact with someone who has no trouble touting his/her own greatness and superiority. Often, these chance encounters will be invested with some special aura of "destiny"—which tends to stop the recruit from looking elsewhere. During the past 20 years millions of young people have had such chance encounters and gotten entangled with groups and leaders who lure them into systems of belief and practice that may do more harm than good. Not uncommonly, members of such groups will spend their 20s and 30s pursuing spiritual goals that elude them. The more destructive systems convince the members that they and not the group are to blame for their failure to achieve "enlightenment," "become godly," "be free from sin," "be pure," or whatever the lofty goal is called. The groups that cause problems hold out the promise of spiritual superiority ("we were God's `green berets'"; "guru so-and-so is the avatar of the age and you have been chosen to be his disciple"; "follow this technique and you will become enlightened" ). But at the same time they stifle the dissent and individuality that threatens to unhinge the leader's control. In my research study of 308 former members from 101 different groups, for example, the items receiving the two highest ratings were "members feel they are part of a special elite" and "the group advocates or implies that when members disagree with the group about fundamental perceptions and beliefs...the member must be wrong." It is no wonder, then, that many ex-members are depressed, lack self-esteem, and grieve (in some cases long for) the sense of superiority, however illusory, that they had in the group. Yet they rarely go back. It seems that while they are in the group the illusion of elitism holds them in, even though they may suffer from stifling themselves for so long. But once this illusion has been pierced (even if only partially) and they leave, they tend to stay out because a painful truth is less painful than returning to a pleasant lie. A great challenge for many ex-members is to recover their self-confidence and learn how to trust other people—and God—again. This challenge is magnified when years of psychological isolation, sometimes enforced by their group, closes off the "window of opportunity" young adulthood offers to those seeking to meet the life challenges of intimacy, vocation, friendship, and spiritual identity. Thus, at 35, rather than 20, these former group members find themselves bewildered about how to meet members of the opposite sex, what to do to make a living, how to make friends (or how to fit back into the lives of old friends who are busy with the demands of career and family), or how to get comfortable with God. The difficulty of meeting young-adult life challenges in one's late 30s or 40s can cause such discouragement in some people that they retreat into holes of despair or climb platforms of hollow superiority. The despair and superiority may oscillate in a debilitating and unproductive pendulum swing. When depressed, the person cannot take constructive actions to solve his problems. If he takes a step or two, his progress seems so minuscule compared to the distance left to travel that he either retreats back into despair or relieves his discouragement by isolating himself further in some illusory system of superiority. What is the way out of this vacillating despair and superiority? In my opinion, there are five steps that must be taken: 1. Acknowledge that, like the rest of us human beings, you want intimacy, a vocation (which need not necessarily be a paid job), friends, and a spiritual identity. The biggest stumbling block to acknowledging this basic humanity is the defensive system of superiority that we are all tempted to construct in order to protect us against despair and discouragement. 2. You must muster the courage to acknowledge that you are discouraged about your capacity to achieve the basic life goals and, consequently, that you are not so superior as you often present yourself. Those people, like you, who are fortunate enough to have supportive family members will often receive encouragement to take constructive action. Sometimes this encouragement is linked to sound advice; sometimes it is linked to unsound advice. The vital element in this encouragement, however, is not the advice, but the love behind it, the implicit statement that "I believe you can travel the full distance." Discouraged persons who shrink away from acknowledging their despair, however, will sometimes resent those who encourage them because the encouragement underlines the fact that they are indeed discouraged, a fact that they don't want to confront. 3. Acknowledge that the life goals cannot be achieved except through a long series of small steps, which includes much trial and error and many stumbles. Discouraged persons often find this inescapable fact of social life very difficult to accept because they lack the confidence to believe that they can keep trying for such a long time. They are very tempted to reach out for illusory, quasi-magical quick-fixes, or they succumb to a mind-numbing inertia that others often see as "laziness." Because the marketplace provides them with so many kinds of slickly packaged "easy roads to happiness," discouraged persons will often waste more precious time chasing sophists and charlatans, if not cult leaders. The New Age movement, in particular, is full of quasi-magical solutions to life challenges that, in actuality, can only be met through effort, courage, and time. The New Age bazaar includes: weekend workshops that will "transform your life"; "channelers" who will give you the secrets of ancient wisdom; pseudoscientific gimmicks (e.g., certain food fads) that promise effortless healing; and meditative techniques that hold out the promise of happiness without having to leave your own mind, let alone leave your house. Although you may bristle at my attack on these New Age "solutions" to life problems, I cannot in good conscience hide my belief that if you are to move forward constructively, you must recognize that "happiness salesmen" are successfully peddling an enormous amount of nonsense and that you, like the rest of us, have bought into much more of this nonsense than you or we realize. I think it is vital that you critically reexamine many ideas that you may have held for a long time. If you can acknowledge that there are no easy solutions and accept the encouragement of those who care about you, then you can begin the next step, which is 4. Apply the principles of problem solving to identify and evaluate optional strategies to achieve your goals. Wendy Ford's book, Recovery from Abusive Groups, has some useful advice in this regard. In my opinion, this phase of the solution is most effectively accomplished in common-sense oriented psychotherapy. Psychotherapists who are locked into psychodynamic or existential models may see the approach I advocate as alien, or even repugnant. The approach I follow comes out of the Adlerian, social learning, and cognitive traditions. It assumes: (1) problem behaviors are mainly the result of learning (although biological processes can account for many symptoms of distress); (2) modifiable factors operating in the present regulate problem behaviors (deficits in social or cognitive skills are often critical factors that can be modified in therapy); (3) solutions nearly always require a series of strategic small steps toward the long-range goal(s); (4) progress should regularly be monitored and solution strategies altered if progress is unsatisfactory. For example, with regard to vocation, I suggest that you reexamine the possible directions you could take. I believe you mentioned to me that you saw a vocational counselor once. Perhaps this might be a good time to contact her/him again to review the career possibilities open to you. Given your tendencies toward psychological isolation, I suggest that you deliberate very carefully about occupations in which you spend much time alone. Rebuilding your social network is another important challenge that you must confront. Make an extra effort to contact extended family members and old friends, keeping in mind that, however much these people may enjoy seeing you, many (probably most) of them will be busy with their careers and families. So don't expect too much. Simply enjoy their company and see them again when it's convenient for both of you. Making friends (male and female) will most likely come from getting involved in social activities that are likely to be frequented by single people. When I worked in Boston, many clients seeking to meet people would take adult education courses, join clubs (such as the Appalachian Mountain Club), join museums and attend museum social events, and other such activities. Repeated exposure to strangers breaks down the barriers to communication. Get to know enough strangers and eventually you will find somebody with whom you "click." Again, these are just general possibilities. Solving this problem area will also require much detailed exploration of options and strategies. With regard to your spiritual searching, I suggest that you treat it like a part-time Ph.D. program that will take 10 years to complete. Talk to a variety of people who hold different spiritual perspectives. Read always. Think about spiritual issues every day, but treat all of your daily "insights" as provisional. That which is truly golden will last; that which is illusory will ultimately be found out, if you don't rush to closure. Pray in whatever way seems to work for you. Although meditation can be helpful to many people, your particular experience suggests that you avoid meditation, at least the mind-emptying variety. Unless you are one of those rare individuals for whom a monastic life is suitable, it will be difficult to settle yourself spiritually while you still wrestle with the more mundane, but nonetheless pressing, issues of work, friendships, and intimacy. Be patient. 5. After you choose a course of action, don't be arrogant. Welcome the support and feedback of people who care for you, but don't treat their opinions as facts. Good intentions don't guarantee good advice, so be open but discerning. Don't give up too quickly, but nonetheless stay flexible, for sometimes a course of action needs to be modified or abandoned for another. And most importantly, don't succumb to the allure of quick fixes or retreat to a psychologically isolated platform of hollow superiority. You have many good qualities. You have a warm heart that is capable of loving much. You have made great progress during the past year. Continue to move forward with courage and discernment. Don't be afraid to seek and accept help. Acknowledge discouragement when you feel it. Recognize that despair and superiority are both dead ends. And never forget that progress results from taking one step at a time. When you trip, simply get up, welcome what help might be available, and start walking forward again. Warmly, Michael D. Langone, Ph.D. 
Michael D. Langone, Ph.D., a counseling psychologist, is ICSA’s Executive Director. He was the founder editor of Cultic Studies Journal (CSJ), the editor of CSJ’s successor, Cultic Studies Review, and editor of Recovery From Cults. He is co-author of Cults: What Parents Should Know and Satanism and Occult-Related Violence: What You Should Know. Dr. Langone has spoken and written widely about cults. In 1995, he received the Leo J. Ryan Award from the "original" Cult Awareness network and was honored as the Albert V. Danielsen visiting Scholar at Boston University.
Related link: ICSA - International Cultic Studies Association
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Aug 19, 2006, 10:46:15
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Thank you Susan for the suggestion and thank you Cynthia for the repost. I recommend that this letter find a home on the EPO site. Is it possible?Love,
Spark
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I agree Spark.It would be a good addition to EPO. Thanks to Cynthia,who posted this letter a long time ago (probably several times! ),for giving me the chance to read this again as I was unable to absorb it the first time ,being newly ex-ed. Two years later it is starting to make good sense to me and is useful.Good idea Susan !
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Most of it resonates with me, (while it thunders and pours outside) yet I feel there is no definite need to link these two:
The alcoholic parents and cult experience.
As my parents only had a glass of port at Xmas, I tend to wonder whether the fact that I purposefully shifted parent hood over to Maharaji (and Mataji) has not resulted somehow in my reaping the effects of being, in some ways Maharaji's child.
While I was not aware of all the secrets in his private life, Have I reaped the emotional effect of his inadequate performance in the role of "Holy Father"? His neglect?
Lp
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Hi LP, Oh boy, here I go again making trouble.  I think AA is a cult at most. At the least, it's definitely cult-like and has many cult characteristics, but it's definitely a religion that has a strict belief-system that members cannot question in membership meetings. I absolutely loathe the 12 steps, AA's track record of helping people to stop drinking is very poor, they render people powerless over their addictions (not a good method of recovery) and people are shunned when they leave the group, which is a sign of weakness or even betrayal. I've witnessed this personally, not as an AA member but of a friend of an AA member. Here's the the url to an article I found a while back that discusses AA as a cult. It's rather long, but my favorite cultic AA slogan is "Stop your stinkin thinkin!" I think that part of leaving a cult is to explore what one's vulnerabilities were. That may include having lived with alcoholic parents, but I never blame the victim in this situation which is the person recruited into a cult. It's a cult leader's preying, luring, seducing people that gets people recruited, regardless of their particular vulnerability. Indeed, the particular vulnerability could have been something as unsexy (exciting) as one having been a bored, lonely teenager to the ultra-sexy as having been someone like me who came from a home of serious child abuse. Anywhere in between applies. Imo, it's for each individual to decide how much they want to deconstruct and reframe their lives. There's no one size fits all. Hope you're well, LP! Cynth
Related link: Cult Test: AA as a cult scorecard
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 07:52:40
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At this point in my journey, albeit I may be just a tad angry, disillusioned, and critical, there are not too many groups that don't look like cults to me. The definitions I have read recently and over the years just seem to try to except the groups they don't want to look like a cult.Perhaps it is just a part of the process of deepening my ability to self reference in regard to my perception of reality/truth, but I am becoming very sensetive to the ways in which people/groups attempt to control me and others in order to serve their own purposes, and I am very interested in being able to recognize the dynamics in me and my external environment so that I may create a different outcome for myself. I do agree whole heartedly that it is not a good idea to generalize. Mea Culpa! BTW thanks for the links in your former post. They were very helpful and better than what I had been able to find. I appologize if I have repeated something that you all have been through already. Thanks for revisiting the subject for me.
Modified by Spark at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 08:46:15
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Spark, There are many religions/groups that are not cults, but I understand your confusion because I felt the same way when I had first realized that I had been in a real personality cult. I viewed many things around me as possible traps and that pov made it difficult to trust. It's only human to distrust others while figuring all of this out. It passes. The world is filled with so many good people who aren't out to control, hurt, and fleece others. It may take some time to build up trust for people again, and even trust for your own judgment. Give yourself some time about this, there isn't any rush. Some ways to distinguish any religion/group from cults is to test them by using critical thinking, analysis, and ask many questions. Are you able to question the validity of the religion/group/belief? Can you freely discuss your opinions, thoughts, and doubts with the people involved without getting pat answers and being discouraged from asking questions? Do they have a loaded language? Do they love bomb you? Do they believe their beliefs are the only/ultimate life answers? Is there an "all or nothing" mentality? Again, go easy on yourself because becoming overwhelmed isn't necessary, although it does happen. I know, I know, easy to say... I probably should stick to discussing the particular belief-system of our former cult. One problematic thing is the belief that Knowledge is the answer, but because that belief was based on individual experience it was very difficult to dispute. More on this later. The most important thing is to honor yourself, your feelings, your thoughts, and it's very important to also pamper yourself. This is difficult stuff and you're entitled to your own thoughts and feelings. Be well, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 08:52:57
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Not to WORRY , congratulate yourself for asking questions . You will get thru this ,be glad you have the time and resources to go thru what you are going thru .Most people are just mindless followers .You are not
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"If I meet a powerful man, I ask five questions: What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And, how can I get rid of you?" (Tony Benn - veteran UK politician) Organisations that are definitely not cults have clear answers to those questions - and especially they have open mechanisms to 'get rid' of those who do not exerciose power in the interests of a 'common good'. >I appologize if I have repeated something that you all have been through already.< No appology necessary. The point about 'ex' forums is that there can not be a single definitive version of 'how it is/was' - each new contributor has to be able to go over the ground that is relevant to them. I think it is true that some of the history is now more accurately sourced than it was five or more years ago but how you feel about that history is just as important as the fact of it. Nik
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I can so relate to your posts even though I left decades ago. Very often when someone posts who has recently left, their words make me remember that time. For me, it was a very scary and out of control sort of feeling time. I know that I had a tendency to not be able to look at groups without that cult prism. It was almost like any subject or group interaction I dealt with in the first years after I left....everything got colored by how I had learned to interact in the cult. I think, for me, my age as a premie made that more profound-13 through 17....since I think whatever it is people learn about the world as adolescents I largely learned in the cult..though I did go to public high school I scoffed at everyone there....I mean...I had KNOWLEDGE. I would just say to be very gentle and easy on yourself during this time. Its pretty overwhelming and scary. Do good thing for yourself in your life. Good nurturing things to care for yourself. I think that is really important right now. Don't make giant changes or jump into big decisions. If you like exercise, hobbies, massages, whatever nurtures you...do those things.... Good luck to you Spark you really seem like a good person.
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Thanks. I'm sure it's funny, but here in East Podunk, Vermont we still don't have broadband capability, so I can't watch the videos. Unless there's some other way to watch these, boohoo. 
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Out where I am in So. Utah I only can get half modem speed. Broadband is not even a twinkle in the telco's eye, I'd settle for 48kps!
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Hi, Just a word of caution about stating where you live, unless you don't mind the possibility of being harrassed by the cult. I've been posting using my real name for so long that Elan Vital already has a dossier on me about five feet thick. It's not beneathe the cult weasels to contact people's place of employment to cause trouble for exes. It's happened to quite a few people who have posted here.
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I am sure that I am quite a small minnow in the pond, but who knows what evil lurks in the minds of men. (grin)
Modified by spark at Fri, Aug 18, 2006, 21:06:47
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decades later I still can't say mind without the cult ramifications of the word echoing in my.....mind. Cynthia is right though, people have been badly harrassed by premies. Some really awful stuff has happened. I have been largely left alone but I am a rare case. I think I am left alone mostly because of the Jagdeo business. My feeling was the more public and upfront you are the more protected you are in the end...if everyone knows who you are and something happens... But some ex's have been harrassed at work, bosses contacted with lies. If you read one had a successful lawsuit when a premie site published lies about her on the web. But who wants to go through all of that. So people are warning you just so you know. I personally think taking the step of posting under your own name and being public can be helpful. You just have to be aware and careful. Being on record helps negate the foolish things premies say about us being anonymous...many many of us are not. It also, like me, lends credence when one must make serious statements. On a personal level, it has helped intergrate my past and present..which prior to this my life as a premie was entirely divorced from my present. In most ways that served me well as I found that I was ever a premie embarrassing. But I think in some ways knowing people can google my name and learn this about me has made me have to deal with it. I think, well, if they can't read about my life, and respect what happened and what I did about it then they probably aren't worth my concern anyway. But nonetheless, before one makes the decision to be public these things need to be thought through.
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I do indeed wish it could be just another word. Mind you, I have been working on using other words to use to describe certain processes associated with thought. It occurs to me that one way to depower a word is to usurp it to our own use. For example, the word queer was once a slur for those of us of alternative sexual orientation, but is now a word that belongs to us. Perhaps it involves a mindful application of the power of intelligence. After all a mind is a terrible thing to waste! and waste is a terrible thing to mind. (grin)It is a shame that people should be subjected to such abuse for speaking their own personal truth, but I suppose that is nothing new. As we know, fear is a powerful motivator. I take note of your caution and acknowledge your perception of the security inherent in choosing to have nothing to hide and to take personal responsibility for ones life and experience. It is a powerful model that is an example and inspiration for others to follow. The coming out process of any type is a challenge in itself and ultimately very freeing. While I have not actually printed out my full name and address I have not taken any particular cautions above and beyond the usual internet security cautions that I always take. A part of me says "Bring em on" in regards to premie reaction, yet you are correct in observing that if it is not necessary to go through the hassle why bother. As a 'fringe" premie I doubt that I pose any direct threat to the story or health of the organization as I do not have any first person accounts that I think would be damaging to m or DLM/EV. Although, I suspect that the personal investigations I am making into the deleterious effects of m & k on my personal life/spiritual health and the efforts I am taking to make those investigations public might be cause for their retaliation, do not know for sure. That being said, if I can see a way that revealing my identity will serve the greater purpose in a way that will make harassment worth it I will not hesitate to do so.
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I am sure that everyone is different and will exit in a different way. For me it has to be open because the secrecy was my trigger to exit. The single thing that disappointed me most and caused me to exit almost immediately was the realisation that there had been so much secrecy....all the time that I had been a sincere footsoldier important information potentially germane to my decision to stay, had been witheld. A functional leader and organisation sure of its ground and secure in its mission would have felt able to discuss criticism (some false, some true, whatever) and have been capable of calm, open and generous responses. In fact I am Tim Hawkes a UK expremie (posting under the name Tommo). I am not ashamed of having been a premie and of now being an ex-premie. Once I had decided to ex I mailed my local premie community because I felt the need to explain why, to question the lack of discussion in the past and to openly say that I post here as 'Tommo'. Obviously I encountered a range of responses, most kindly (since most premies are decent people) but doing that helped me to try and draw a line and move on. I do not expect to be harassed and posting here certainly does not imply membership of a 'hate group'. For me this site is a place where people 'in the same boat' can help eachother. After so many years, it is natural that ‘walking away’ is not instant and that part of the process must involve re-examining the past and seeing things that now, with the benefit of hindsight, we can see as so obviously wrong (and that a part of us questioned at the time) ..and in fact have a bit of harmless fun doing it… I believe that Douglas Adams first introduced the idea of poetry as an offensive weapon. Subjecting anyone to these immortal lines could be construed as damned close to ‘cult abuse’ …well OK I wasn’t strapped into the seat. …… Heightened affection grows No dismal to and fro Together, but separated for long Alas, Heart grows strong No definite course to take Elated with the heart, I awake No conclusion to reach Feeling to learn, feelings to teach I wonder why this is so hard But have I ever heard my heart? In silence I learn to listen In simple joy I begin to glisten All thoughts seem so distant Want to feel only the instant The clever in me wants to fear The heart in me wants the dear Conflict is, but will be over Heart will win, I will be sober
Thought the last line vaguely linked with the original AOA theme of this thread? In all seriousness though it says something about the man and the quality of his relationships that no-one could tell him that whatever else he is no poet.
All the best Tim
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Modified by geo at Sat, Aug 19, 2006, 11:51:28
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I'm fine thanks, I hope your summer cold is gone now. Just waiting out some stormy weather before getting back outside camping while our summer lasts.
Best wishes
Lp
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you should see Penn and Teller's Bullshit show on AA. I will try and find it on Youtube for you.
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