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yeah a reasurgance. they bought an old christian church here in my town . love there all u can eat vege meals .offered one a dairy free candy bar but the guy said no it has got caffine . Harry Harry Trueman Hari Hari Krisna see you in one of the journeys to the other worlds space brothers
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There is absolutely no excuse for anyone continuing to perpertrate, promote or excuse this branch of Hinduism. They took the children away from their mothers at 4 or 6 years of age and sent them to the GuruKulas ( schools which were more like torture chambers). Families were seperated in the name of these kids learning absolute surrender and obedience. They were TORTURED. Made to sleep on cold hard floors to learn surrender, raped, both male and female, many by than many many of the sick individuals who chose service in the GuruKulas. I have read their stories, its was huge institutionalized child abuse. Many of the GuruKulas were in the US, but there were others were in others countries, and the kids were shipped around like ashram premies....but small and very helpless ones. What possible reason could there be to salvage a religion that let this happen. Let the real Hindu's make their own temples. So what that american's are into New Age stupidity. Everyone betrayed these children, their parents, teachers and our nation and our world. I guess once a kid is born in a cult he or she has no societal protections AT ALL. Want to abuse your kid, best way to get away with it is in the name of religion....ask the Khrishnas ( who should be bankrupted into oblivion) ask the Catholic altar boys, ask Jim Jones or David Koresh. Ask the thousands of boys and girls raised in fundamentalist Mormon compounds to this day. I think I may want to move to France.Religious Liberty and freedom just should not go this far and seperation of church and state seems to make law enforcement POWERLESS to save these kids...and that has been for decades.
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Excellent post Susan.There is no doubt that if I ever wanted to set up some nasty and obscene operation, I would do it in America calling it a religion - safest place there is. I share your outrage - and not only for kids, but for all humans, past and present, sacrificed for some stupid belief-system called 'religion'. -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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Mike are the Krishnas on the rise in England as well ?
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yes, but at least the Hare Krishnas admit their mistakes. I mean, in a way the case of SSB is worse, because it is all denied and continues until today. I have the impression that the mothers who left their children in the gurukulas were simply naive and thought that their children would be taken care of properly only because the people who would take care of them were devotees purified by their devotion to Krishna. Andries
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Hi Andries
One might construe that devotion, to whatever, guru, deity or principle, does not purify, but rather the constraints lead to abberations and abnormal situations.
A worsening of character seems to be the more likely result of various paths of devotion, if we go by recent history. The trust these followings inspire is dangerous. Especially in parents.
Purer is the young person or newcomer. Once on a devotional path, innocence seems to get progressively lost. Innocents themselves, so often, so easily become the victims, while their parents love is diverted to the focal point of their devotion, leaving their children feeling abandoned and vulnerable.
Although the parents thought they were left in the hands of those whom they trusted. Their judgements were also impaired by their overruling desire to attend "holy" rituals, and the 'no children' rule that often accompanies them.
Lp
Modified by LP at Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 03:55:00
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I think it's just a case of predators going where the kids are. It has nothing to do with abberated behaviour as a result of devotion. The only thing these people are really devoted to is satisfying their perversion. That's why you hear so many stories of priests, teachers, day care workers, and so on turning out to be child predators. But if you think about it, what's so surprising about it? Where else do you think these people are going to be found if not in situations where they have ready access to children? It's sick and it's sickening, but that is the world we live in.
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I don't think chastity made priests child abusers. I frankly seriously, seriously wonder if Jagdeo never really believed in Rawat but saw it as a good place to get victims. I totally agree, people with this perversion look for ways to be around kids...its just sad that it seems to be easier for it to get hidden in a cult compound or religous school than lets say the Little League coach. They should have no place to hide and should all go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.
Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 15:52:41
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For the abusers...I agree. As to devotion imparing a parents judgement and making them put kids in dangerous situations. I disagree. Devotion had everything to do with why Jagdeo had so many victims, the Catholic Priests and the GuruKulas...but it was the devotion of the parents that put them in harms way.
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Hi Jerry, I was thinking in terms of social or situational aberrations initially.
Situations, for example, that have occurred at Oshu centres, where parents are preoccupied with talks or meditations or other activities, while children are left supposedly in child care but often left unattended for long periods. Besides the obvious dangers you have mentioned, there are long term effects and dangers from the lack of supervision and boredom. The case of Nicholas Schultz, a 13 yr. old boy who hung himself at a Rajneesh commune under such circumstances was on my mind at the time I wrote the previous post.
However, I do see connections between devotion and disrespecting others.
* When one believes one's self or another's to be a guru or divine, there is an imbalance of perceived human value. There is too much respect given in one direction and too little in another. Those who think themselves divine seem also to consider themselves above the rules of normal society, and to exhibit a diminution of respect for the average person. This could easily be a setting for abuse.
* Devotion does not come from nowhere, the love, the care, the time, the attention to duty is taken from our normal human responsibilities. The respect is taken from our respect for common humanity. Unfair treatment can ensue, with devotional obsession, if only by neglect, but certainly as a result of inadequate or insufficient respect for others.
* Those who gaze with devotion upon a guru, who is also capable of abuse, are unlikely to recognise his behaviour as incorrect, and their desire to emulate the guru might inadvertently lead to them taking on his negative traits and behaving in a similar way.
I agree with your post, with reference to predators, of course.
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 18:49:48
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Hi AndriesYes I agree with you that the parents and others were acting with good intentions. Most people who do stupid things in the name of religion are acting with good intentions. But does that make it any better? I don't think so. That is the problem with buying into a ready-made belief system in which you abnegate your responsibility to think clearly to an outside power - either an imaginary God or a person whom you believe is God's representative. Once you have bought into that, then you can, and often do, do anything! All the normal checks and balances that a thinking human being has are overridden by this outside authority telling you what to think and how to behave. As the saying goes, 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'. (I have just Googled this, and it appears the phrase was first used by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the early 1100's - now that's a useless bit of trivia!) -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
Modified by Mike Finch at Sun, Jul 23, 2006, 07:36:03
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St Bernard was founder of the Knights Templar cult, so beloved of esoteric mythmakers such as Dan Brown. But then Templars were supressed for the crime of having **** themselves - or rather each other. N
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The Templars were "suppressed" ie arrested, tortured and burnt at the stake for the "crime" of having much wealth that could be confiscated by the King of France mainly and others who jumped on the bandwagon. The story is quite disgusting but not for any "crimes" the Templars may have committed in Europe (no doubt they did commit many crimes against humanity elsewhere) but for the hypocrisy and cupidity of their accusers.
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I didn't say they were guilty !
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It would have been perfectly OK with me if they had been "guilty" as charged.
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I did not know they were that messed up and cultish . To bad with all the scriptures that have been written that were supposed to make are lives better , that wovles don all different manner of clothes . I noticed the Krishnas on the increase in a couple different cities . Seems like beware . It is good that this site exists . It well help alot of people .
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The Krishnas 40th anniversary means that they started in the summer of 1966 when maharaji became "perfect master". Other events of that summer included Richard Speck's killing of nine student nurses, Charles Whitman gunning down people from a tower in Austin, Texas, the death of Lenny Bruce, and in my own case the narrow escape from death in a car accident that was fatal for six others. Kabir
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Sorry to hear that, Kabir. What happened? If it's too much, fine. But God .....
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Jim: I'd prefer to not go into the details on this forum except to say that it occurred within days of Shri Hans' passing and a couple of weeks before M becoming "perfect master" which I found of cosmic significance when I was a premie. You can contact me through the forum administrator if you want to hear the details. Kabir
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Dear Michael,
I believe you. I was abused by a Mahatma in the Divine Light Mission. I was
really very lucky, I was 15 and when I was able to believe what was
happening was true I made an excuse and got away quickly. I had a dear
friend though...at age 12...who was badly and repeatedly abused by the same
man. Then, once I found the ex premie website I was put in touch with a
young girl who was raped at age 8 but the same man. He traveled as one of
Maharaji's mahatmas all over the world. I tried, twice, to report him in the
1970s and early 1980. They say now that I never did that, no one remembers
the reports. But when I went public on the web around 2000 they finally did
something. Its unclear to me what they really did. They filed a lawsuit
against him in India and confronted him and he walked out of the ashram in
shame never to be seen again? That sounds fishy to me...
But even with all that, when I read about the lives of the kids in the
GuruKulas I was SHOCKED and thanked my lucky stars I wasn't in THAT cult.
Yes, the sexual abuse was horrific and widespread. But hopefully the average
Krishna didn't know it was happening...I hope anyway. But they did know they
were sending their six year olds away to these schools. And they did know
the kids were learning surrender by enduring all sorts of horrible living
conditions and hard manual labor. I just cannot, in any way, justify anyone
treating Prahubananda as anything but a cult leader. Just because of what he
knowingly did with the GuruKulas existing at all. The rampant beatings and
sexual abuse make it far worse.
This is what I think. I still think I enjoy living in a society with Freedom
of Religion. I still believe people should have a right to practice any
religion they chose or even join a cult. My freedom of Speech, and others,
allows me to try to educate people about cults and the idea is maybe its
just the price we pay for freedom of religion?
That works well until it comes to some of the children in these cults.
Whether its the Jehovah's witness refusing their child blood, the 13 year
polygamous bride in Utah or Arizona, Waco, DLM or the
GuruKulas. Where do the rights of these children intersect with their
parents rights to bring them up in any cult they please? I am not telling
you I even think I know what is the right way to fix it. But there is just
too much child abuse going on, even right now today in the United States
that ends up being hidden and outside the protection of the law in the name
of religious freedom. For me, when it comes to kids being child brides,
dying from treatable illness or being raised in Spartan cult institutions by
pedophiles....that's just taking freedom of religion too far.
But you're the religion journalist...what is the answer? I despise
Scientology and the Falong Gong( spelling?) but I am not comfortable with
the way France handles cults or China. I don't however, think if these
things are happening to our kids we are doing any better. I am starting to
wonder, truly, if France may indeed have it right on this one.
Respectfully,
Susan
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: Ex-Premie discussion of your Khrisha softball piece
Dear Susan,
You are free to post my email on the website you mentioned. You may also be
interested in this version of my article, which was published on
Beliefnet.com. I suspect you will still take issue with it, and I respect
that, but while it is still a short piece, it devotes a lot more space to
the sex-abuse.
For what it's worth, at the same time as I take the abuse and ISKCON's
cover-up of it extremely seriously, I've also found many of the current
devotees to be honest, kind, dedicated, and truly ashamed of what happened
(and ashamed of those who still protect and honor the abusers). That's
obviously not true of everyone in the organization, but I've encountered
many good-hearted people, American and India, for whom ISKCON has been a
positive force in their lives, and who, I believe, have been a positive
force in reforming ISKCON and making amends for the past and making sure
that nothing like that happens again in the organization. (You may also be
interested in this essay by a young devotee:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/195/story_19576_1.html.)
I don't pretend to understand the pain that an abuse victim faces and don't
expect someone who's been abused to look kindly on the organization. As an
outsider, however, I hope I can report on both the awful and the positive in
ISKCON to allow readers some understanding into the past and present of this
group.
I appreciate your insight and understanding.
All the best,
Michael
> Subject: Re: Ex-Premie discussion of your Khrisha softball piece
> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 19:09:31 -0700
>
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> I so appreciate your response. I am sorry they edited your work
> that way that really is awful. I am not a journalist and did not
> even realize that could happen. Sounds like they wanted a story
> about how the Krishna's have mainstreamed and didn't want to deal
> with the reality of the past. I thought it was really sad that
> legitimate Indian Hindu's are going to the Krishna temples. Kind of
> gives me the shivers.
>
> Thanks for the insight. Could I post what you said on the ex premie
> forum so they know how the article happened?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Susan
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kress"
> Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Ex-Premie discussion of your Khrisha softball piece
>
>
> Susan,
>
> I appreciate your input and you may be surprised to know that I
> agree with you. The piece went through several rounds of editing,
> and with each round, the substantial section I'd included about the
> sex-abuse was trimmed down until I needed to argue for even the
> small mention that was included in the end. It was not my intention
> to soft pedal this tragic situation, but I had limited ability to
> control the final piece. (You've also got to understand that in a
> 250-word article it's nearly impossible to get into detail about
> anything. But I truly wish they'd left the balance much closer to
> how I'd had it in my original piece. No part of me dismisses the
> seriousness of the abuse.)
>
> Michael
>
>
> >
> > Subject: Ex-Premie discussion of your Khrisha softball piece
> > Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 08:56:41 -0700
> >
> >
> > Michael- check this out
> >
> > http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/9146.html
> >
> >
> > http://www.ex-premie.org/
> >
> > I would love to correspond with you if you have the time. Sorry, I
> > think your article soft pedaled the child abuse in the Guru Kulas
> > to a degree that I find appalling. Did you research what really
> > happened to those children?
> >
> > Susan....never a Khrishna...but a "premie" of the Lord of the
> > Universe...from 13-17 years of age. Suprised Suprise...he has a
> > revisionist staff too...they staged actually book burnings of the
> > proof of what the cult was. Now its on the web...thank God.
> >
> > Here's a look
> >
> > http://www.ex-premie.org/video/misc.html
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fsearch%3DPrem%2BRawat%26mode%3Drelated%26v%3DVPehWlDFRcE
> >
> >
> > Search u tube for Preme Rawat....
> >
> > Susan
>
> >
>
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Dear Michael,
That was beautifully written and I think he sounds like a good man. As you
guessed, ultimately, I would have to walk away from his branch of Hinduism.
I think walking is the right thing to do. As you know, ISKON was fairly well
forced to deal with it. However, I do think that openly admitting it
happened is very honorable.
Do you ever think about the difference between cult and religion..and where
the lines blur? What I see here in this man's story is a true cult ( which
he isn't really owning up to as I would like) starting to become more of
what I think is religion. I have spend much of my childhood and all of my
adult life off and on thinking about these things. I have more questions
than answers. I think Joseph Smith was 100% charlatan. I think you can
fairly well prove by many objective measures that the things he said in the
Book of Mormon did not happen. There were no Nephites or Lamanites. The
thing about his translating the Egyptian all wrong....I think it all
proves... beyond a reasonable doubt that the man was a con artist. That
being said....I think a lot of today's Mormon's are a little like the young
man who wrote the article. What I can't cope with about either though is
trying to deny what is obvious about the origins of their beliefs. And of
course in Mormons I am talking about the mainstream LDS not the Warren Jeffs
FLDS.....though there again...I get confused. Really, who is the real
Mormon? The mainstream....where the Gordon Hinkley Quorum of 12 get
revelations that keeps them on the acceptable edge of political
correctness.? When it was expedient, they outlawed polygamy, then, well...it
started to be very uncool to exclude blacks from the priesthood....not cool
to be baptizing from the Holocaust Rolls either. But the politically correct
revelations are at odds with what the Joseph Smith said. So are the people
out in the compounds the real Mormons? At least they don't deny what Joseph
Smith really did and said.
I don't know enough about Prahubandna to compare. But I do know about my own
guru. He is trying to go mainstream too. But he won't deal honestly with his
past. Sort of like were you lying then or are you lying now?
Enjoy the conversation and I am going to read more of your articles.
Susan
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:03:24
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:04:08
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:04:45
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:05:28
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Our former Captain and L.Ron Hubbard share affinity for dressing in uniforms
Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:06:12
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:10:14
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:21:07
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Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 12:14:19
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Hi Susan I read that Jim Jones book about the gyana suicides back in 79 . It was distubing . I was living in San Diego 89 -91 .then moved back to KC. I could sware that when the heavens Gate people had photos in the mags . a reconized a few of them from the health food store I would shop at . KEEP on writing your stuff here it may someday really help people I'm sure it has helped many allready . It has definately helped me , keep on keepin on GEO
Modified by geo at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 15:52:12
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She fell for a young teen of Polynesian (samoan?) descent and had a child with him. Its child abuse. She went to jail. Now he is an adult and they have two children together and have married now she is out. She had four and a husband she left for the kid. Jim...my tastes in men...even if I were single and looked a shred of like I did in my twenties...were never for short men. I hate to admit this but there is just no attraction for me in a guy that I have to stoop down to kiss like Marolyn is in that picture. Makes me feel distinctly NOT feminine to tower over a guy. On the other hand, I practically swoon when around a really tall good looking man...sometimes even if they aren't good looking...just tall. Like Dennis Marciniak. Remember him? I remember getting a hug from him once and feeling like I was gonna faint I was that..well...attracted. Dennis hardly knew who I was by the way. I am 5.9 which for a woman means I am height of average man. And yes, when I was younger and thinner I had maybe a bit of a Marolyn type of look....not anywhere as pretty as she is...but a similarity. Anyway...hubby has nothing to fear unless they are very tall....and frankly...I have never found younger men attractive either. LOL as if any of this is relevant to my life as a middle aged married fat woman.
Modified by Susan at Mon, Jul 24, 2006, 15:17:28
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I know we can argue about this 'til the cows come home, but I really have a hard time seeing that as child abuse. Frankly, the real harm might be in triggering an unfathomably frustrated jealousy in the kid's best friends, the ones who will eventually tell their parents -- because they're jealous -- and get the teacher busted. I just can't call it abuse unless I can see the harm and, sorry, I can't. Obviously, though, if Letourneau abused her guy, Marolyn abused hers too. I hear you on the height thing, I hear the men on the island you're going to have an average height of 6'2" and love blondes with a little substance to them. Don't worry, just never leave your hotel and don't make eye contact. Like I say, take Deadwood.
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I can tell you that as the MOTHER of 3 males if anyone of them had slept with and impregnated his sixth grade teacher I would be way angrier at her than the kid. Do you think teen prostitutes are child abuse victims...at 17...15....13....11....9....7? How about boys of those ages and other men? I don't think how the kid "feels" about it is what defines abuse generally...at least it shouldn't. How about if the sixth grade girl has a terrible crush on teacher and he abuses her...feel different? What if she liked it? What if she thought she was in love with him... I don't think sportF...ing is good for either gender at any age or orientation.... The women of the Cook Islands I hear are among the most erotic of South Pacific dancers and also the men. The women I hear are commonly women of substance.... I was thinking I could use that line as a nurse...we often refer to heavy women as fluffy. No one wants to use the words fat or obese. Usually if I chart it I say " unable to maintain FHR tracing related to copious maternal abdominal adipose tissue" ...just so some day in court some damn lawyer won't say " I see hear you wrote Mrs, Jones was fat"......really thats why I do it. I always chart with the echo of a lawyer making shit out of me in my head. And I have never even been deposed...thats just luck though its incredibly common for OB nurses to have to testify in lawsuits. I am terrified of the idea..... Off too Aitutaki where the men are tall and tan.....to watch my DVDs.
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I wish I could have done a better job with that. It is a post I tried to make twice...my collection of similars. Its weird huh? Anyway...if either one of you can clean it up...make the sizes similar instead or one turns out giant one small...I think it is an interesting and very strange photo essay.....
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still can't work out the connection between 5 martians, a wedding cake ornament factory and Glen and Mahatmaji sharing a chillum while everyone cheers them on.
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 14:21:41
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I don't get it and I have a feeling its funny. 5 martians...wedding cake ornanments...Glen and Mahatma ji sharing a chillum ( what's that)... I bought the Xenophobes Guide to the Australians and it has left me with many "oh so that explains it" insights into past forum intectactions.
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That WAS really funny! Which one is Glen?? did you see that hunk Dennis Marciniak hand waving for the Lord?
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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chillum&btnG=Google+Search ahhhh.....LOL..... and now that I have read the Xenophobe's guide to the Australians I understand that how someone could post that a baby is ugly...but I hope he means the Letourneau baby..not Premlata. Nothing ugly at all about her. She was really very very pretty child.
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LP I am still laughing. I was genuine I had no IDEA what you were talking about it. Then I went and looked at the post of the scary devotees....ahhh five martians....wedding cake ornaments....and I did have to look up Chillum I really had no idea what it was..but that made it funnier. So left to right in that pic? Jagdeo, by Glen do you mean the Glen Whitaker we speak of on the forum...I never knew him...is that him? then Charnanand... and then my tall stud muffin Dennis?...yep I actually swooned...hugged him at the temp residence on Rivo Alto Island on Miami beach after doing much service involving toothbrushes on bathroom floors...maybe I had OD'd on cleaning fluids but I think it was cerebropelvic shunting myself. It's happened in elevators next to really tall guys...why am I telling you this. Sorry short men of world its just biology I think.
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Wot me worry? I'm 6ft, but I got a serious rush when I thought you didn't get my joke, but yep, between Jagdeo and Charanand, it looks like Glen, with his hands clasped as if holding something. Silly, really. A harmless jest. (No offence intended Charananand): I laughed a lot today too.
Best wishes to you Susan
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 26, 2006, 17:24:57
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