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Sean, I got your message, It's ok, really, and I'm ok. And you don't have to tell me that it was never your intent to make any one feel bad. I can feel that. I would say the same as you say: sometimes you meet someone who feels like a brother.
You have absolutely nothing to apologize for; you have violated no code of ethic here, or with me.
You have not pained me nor has the land you walk upon, but it is the barbs which are in the wires of the fence that separates our earth into partitions. And divides the lands we live on into Maharaji and non maharaji. All the pain comes from there really. And ultimately, though you might like it less than to take the blame yourself (which you may not) for any pain I feel in reflection upon the damage done, to mind and life and livelihood is but a pale recollection of the actual string of sad events which led me here. I blame Maharaji.
You sir, are not to blame at all, nor must you feel you have taken part in any thing other than a worthwhile experiment in the process of communicating. Communication is a simple thing, the reason that it is so complicated and clandestine is the fear that m invoked in us. No, human brother Saun, you may not have any responsibilty for my sadness or tiredness of mind.
I carry most of it myself. I choose to exhaust myself trying to escape from every shred of indoctrination; even hypnosis I have imbibed for maharaji's success's sake, but substantial amounts of responsibity and blame I lay at his feet or upon the arti altar. (Not that I've got one, I quickly add, for concerned others) 
I was keen to enter into a good debate, and had tried before with others, but your posts were my first opportunity to engage in ongoing intelligent debate and I found it nothing but rewarding. There were unresolved emotional issues within when I began, from previous premie posters. You understand, I'm sure, the natural defensive suspicion that our dealings with premies sometimes invoke.
Sometimes one comes home from a good weekend of hiking or such and is totally exhausted, but it doesn't mean the exercise hasn't done us a power of good. It's not the typing here, it's the introspection that takes it out of you. And you, Sean are exactly what we hope for, intelligent debate from the 'other side'. Something almost non existant usually, and you, (as several, as well as yourself have pointed out,) are not a prime example of gung ho premie nature anyway.
But you are probably as close as we've come so far to someone who's prepared to communicate honestly. I'm over sensitive, and have to learn when to take a break and recouperate. Again, my energy management to blame, not you.
I'm also impatient and want results straight away.
Please feel free to keep on posting here Sean, I'm starting to miss your words already. Plenty of other people here enjoyed the debate fine and so have I and I'm sorry for suggesting that it was down to you, that I was having a bad day.
You understand, I believe, where I'm coming from when I say I am still a seeker of the truth and that precedes and supercedes, events in and around India from the sixties to date. My loyalty for the truth wins out over loyalty to any movement where truth is secondary or irrelevant.
And then there is honour.
Lp
Modified by LP at Tue, Jul 11, 2006, 12:42:40
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LP,OK, Thank you for your response, I was concerned about
that, unnecessarily as it turns out, but sincerely. Now as for me, someone with no standing in the premie
community, and little practice during the past 20 years,
I think I have some interesting choices ahead of me! Best Regards,
Sean
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Well, it seems to me that the context was Holi, and Maharaji
was talking to premies. Ocker has already demonstrated that I
am not really a premie, so do you really think this applies to
me?
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You tell me... Is Prem Rawat a greedy mind abusing scam artist or not? I'd like to hear you admit some truth! What do you think? Best thoughts... Hilltop
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Hilltop,>Is Prem Rawat a greedy mind abusing scam artist or not? You have such an interesting way of asking a question!  This is what I think, or imagine may be a better word, in
the context of looking at Maharaji as just another person.
I think he sincerely believes that meditation has some
transforming power and that devotion is a necessary ingredient
in bringing the transformation about. I think he feels an
enormous debt of gratitude to his father and an obligation to
spend his life continuing his father's work. Part of this
obligation is to be the object of devotion for a mass of
not-always-stable premies who may themselves engage in
suboptimal behavior and beliefs. I think, in his mind, he
has no alternative but to do this. I just don't see a lot of
selfish greed, mind abuse, and scam artistry going on with him. But of course, I am a partisan, who badly needs someone
to serve this role, lest I be left stranded with meditation,
but no guru to provide guidance. Sean
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But of course, I am a partisan, who badly needs someone to serve this role, lest I be left stranded with meditation, but no guru to provide guidance. I thought you haven't seen him in nearly twenty years? Frankly, you just sound like a wimpy sheep who needs someone to call mommy. Oh sorry, was that disrespectful?
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>you just sound like a wimpy sheep Jesus was the Lamb, Paul called himself a slave
and a prisoner, what's left for me to aspire to?
I guess I could be a wimpy sheep, if the other
sheep would have me.
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Do you really think Jesus was the Lamb? Everyone else around here is in a knot because you're a premie, but I'm wondering if you consider yourself a christian as well. I am curious as to how you could reconcile your devotion to m with acceptance of christian teachings. You don't actually get a choice, you know - it's six of one, or half a dozen of the other, but not the whole crate of eggs.
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It is wonderful when the student surpasses the teacher and becomes his own Master . Also the Gnostics meditated and believed in reicarnation till the Emporer Justinian outlawed both around 535AD .In a Gnostic verse attributted to Jesus he says when you find someone not born of a women then He is the Father bow to Him and no onelse , in a way Jesus meant himself as well .
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Hi Geo,
That was the author of the Gnostic verse who wrote that phrase, not Jesus. And the Gnostics continued to meditate and believe in reincarnation (all but the ones who were just in it for the club), they just didn't say it publicly anymore just like premies don't talk publicly about how they worship Prem Rawat.
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I'm not sure that's the best comparison. After all, the Gnostics were hiding their little lights because they would be killed if they didn't. The only consequence to a premie outing his/her devotion to m in public is being sniggered at. But you're right, I think that modern-day Gnostics still meditate and believe in reincarnation, though that might be more the Golden Dawn element these days. The people I know who have studied the Nag Hamadi, etc., tend not to go for the bells and whistles.
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My dad also said if you find someone not born of women it s an old saying not sure where it came from . But here is what I really want to say . I think the human race dose not need the secercy of the old mystry cults including the gnostics , WHY dose the spreding of knowledge Gnosis need to be kept seceret .HELL M is giving it to anybody compared to what intiates went thru in ancient times so why should we keep are mouths shut .like in Heroditus on pain of death if one revaels the secrets .
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I thought the Gnostics were referring to Adam when they spoke of "man not born of woman", but I know little about it so that could easily be wrong. I've also heard it as the prophesy the witches gave to MacBeth - he had nothing to fear until Birnam Wood came to Dunsinane, or until he met a man not born of woman... 'Course, I think Shakespeare was cheating to make MacDuff the 'man not born of woman' because "he was from his mother's womb untimely ript", but it's a quibble.
I fully agree that we don't need secret cults... but it was ever thus. The Mysteries were a big secret because they were restricted to the upper classes, who were expected to pay big bucks to get their k. No dosh, no k. And that's that, to quote a certain jolly little Golden Ass. If you don't have secrets, you don't have anything to sell the flock. No secrets, no way to instill those "you are extra-special because you have the secret" memory loops the cults love so much. No secrets, no control. No secrets, no fleece from the sheep.
As my dad always said (in a completely different context), why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?
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Actually, it was a serious question and not meant to offend, but you seem extra-defensive today, so maybe it sounded extra-bad. I just find it hard to figure out how, if you are a Christian, you managed not to connect the point in Matthew 6:24 (reiterated for good measure at Luke 16:13), with your attachment to m. You know the one, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and Mammon."
Or every Christian's favourite nightmare, Revelation 3:16 to 3:19 ... "So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."
Personally, I don't think there's anything on the other side of death except more death, but if you are a Christian I think you might want to consider some things in the context of a choice you are making to follow someone who in due course is going to vomit all over you unless you dump Mammon over there in the silly Krishna suit. Of course, if you're just going to the church to show solidarity with your wife and show the kids that there's more than one way to view the world, then there's no problem, is there?
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Premie-ex, OK you are asking fair questions and I want to address them,
but this time let's both be fair. I will answer your questions,
but first please answer mine: - How long were you a premie, and what did it mean to you
before you realized it was all a fraud? Tell the truth.
- What do you believe in now? Anything?
- Why are you a member of this forum and how long have you
been posting here? Again, honesty. These are serious, IMHO inoffensive questions.
Are you willing to address them? That is the price
for any more confessions from me. Sean
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Thanks for your answer, Sean, and I'm happy to answer your questions, though I respectfully request that you do not demand that I "tell the truth" and stipulate "honesty" in my answers, because that implies that you assume that I will lie to you. I've just torn up my life to escape a hog-wallow of lies, and I'm not about to contaminate the new one I'm building by telling my own.
I was never a premie and always thought of it as a fraud. I am a member of this forum because I fell in love with and lived with a devoted premie for 10 years. I came to this forum for help because I was asking questions and getting nothing but the party line from the man I loved. I read reams in the EPO gallery, and eventually concluded that I could not live a person who had sworn fealty to the likes of m, and who had exhausted both of us with the intellectual contortions he had to get into to rationalize the irrational. So we have broken up, and I have been posting here for the last few weeks because I need to work my way out of the rut we dug. He was the big love of my life, but he reserved his for Prem Rawat. Call me jealous, but consider the frustration and pain of knowing that my love counted for nothing compared to Prem's sentimental and moronic erzatz version. You might get an idea how much it hurts if your wife ever reads the gallery.
As for my beliefs, when I think of a Supreme Divinity it is composed of the entire universe and everything in it - in my religion, everything gets to be God. I think that after we die the best we can hope to be is excellent compost, and I find that vision of the after-life to be a positive thing. I run screaming from anything that smacks of "The One True Way": intolerable limitation.
I am facile with biblical stuff because my father was an abusive tyrant who would whip the shit out of us if we didn't memorize our scriptures the way he liked, but I am not a Christian. I belong to no religious club and never will, but religion is endlessly fascinating for me (so long as nobody's hitting me). It's just religious systems and the con-artist freakoids who tend to inhabit them that I have a problem with.
So, Sean, have I paid your price? I do seriously like the way you're trying to come to grips with what you actually do believe, and you have definitely come to the right place if you're insisting on honesty. So, open your Good Book to the scary part and tell me, please, where could m fit in?
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Premie-ex,
Thank you, yes, you have earned an honest answer from me.Regarding the bible, I am interested in the gospels
and Paul, not so much Revelations or anything in the
old testament. My favorite passage? Mark 9:41 of course.
"For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because of
your name as followers of Christ, truly I say to you,
he shall not lose his reward". 9:42 is a bit interesting
too, don't you think? Here is what I think about Jesus the person: I think he lived unremarkably for his first 30
or so years. He was raised in a pious Jewish
family with 5 brothers and at least 2 sisters.
Spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, perhaps some Greek,
probably could read and write, possibly was
taught in the village synagogue. Probably was
trained to make a living as an artisan in wood or
stone. I suspect that one of the formative events
of his life occurred when he was less than 10 years
old. The nearby city of Sepphoris was destroyed by
the Romans, the people enslaved and the city given
over to a group of loyal Hellenized people.
Imagine the effect this would have on a small boy
in a nearby town, barely 15 miles away... When Jesus grew up he did not marry. Instead he
was celibate, and abandoned his trade and his
family to follow John the Baptist, a charismatic
prophet of the end times of Israel. John had a
loose group of followers which Jesus joined.
When he was baptised by John, Jesus had a
transcendant experience. Sometime later he left
John to start his own ministry, taking with him a
few of John's disciples, who became part of Jesus'
inner circle. Like John, Jesus baptised people and spoke of the
world coming to an end and the coming of God to
Israel. Unlike John, he left the desert
area and traveled around the small towns of
Galilee and to the city of Jerusalem. Jesus always spoke in respectful and positive terms
to and about John. In John, I think we can see
another formative influence on Jesus. I think
John was a mentor, providing a model for how to
preach and convert, but also for how to die, when John
was later imprisoned and executed. As Jesus matured into his own ministry, and started
speaking with his own unique, and perhaps less
eschatological voice, he gained the reputation of
being a miracle worker. His followers, the general
public and even his enemies believed that he could
perform miracles, and he believed this too. At some point, during a Passover festival in
Jerusalem, Jesus crossed the local secular
and religious authorities. He was betrayed in some
sense by Judas Iscariot, perhaps by revealing what
Jesus taught his inner circle, which could be
interpreted as religious heresy or political
subversion. His arrest, trial, conviction and
execution occurred with Roman efficiency and
dispatch. I imagine that for most of his followers,
he died before they even knew that he had been
arrested. Did Jesus intend to be crucified? No, I don't think so.
He did not plan to die as a martyr. He avoided confrontation
with the secular powers and did what he could to get along
with the existing political and religious structure, until
the last week of his life. During that week he did two
things. First, he caused a public scene during a major
festival, one known for leading to riots in the past. Second,
when he learned that he was going to be arrested, he did not
try to escape. The latter action is in character, I think.
But not the former action. I suspect that the scene was a
creation to explain what provoked his arrest. Given
Herod Antipas' paranoia and the Sadducee's realpolitik, I
would think that his popularity and mere presence in
Jerusalem during Passover was enough to seal his fate. After his death, Jesus appeared to some number
of his followers, for some period of time
afterwards. Here is what I believe about Jesus the Christ:
He is the Lord, and is is present in the communion
wine and bread. Regards,
Sean
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Well I read your post, first thing I thought was I feel sorry for you. Not nice is it. But then I think your post is no answer to premie-ex who did answer your questions rather than evade them.
Why poor thing? all that yucky bible stuff is bad enough but you've also got your own special story going too, did that come from the Lutherans, their special 'in' on Jesus?
Me, I figured you were doing a balancing act, ameliorating the effects of your wife's religion on you and your family by having an alternative hindu flavoured one of your own.
Now I've no idea, you could try answering premie-ex's question. How do you deal with two gurus, or two christs if you're in a christian mood today?
Or here's another one - With this business of dividing up a person you've got going - Jesus into person and christ, Rawat into inner and outer maharaji, what do you divide yourself into, (saying soul and body won't do, I mean in real terms what part of yourself that you relate to is in the subdivision) and where's the dividing line for your family pet, or is it only gurus and christs that have an extra dimension?
But here's a real question. Premie-ex answered your questions gave you details of her life which included mentioning an abusive parent who bible-bashed her. How do you think she felt on reading your post?
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Hello Sean,
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate what you've tried to say and have been considering it. I didn't answer earlier because I got involved with some family things, but I have read your post a couple of times and have a few comments.
One is that you have made one of the clearest affirmations of your Christian faith in your last sentence - that you believe that Jesus is the Lord, and you pretty much admit to taking part in communion. I'll bet you even got baptised. Therefore, I am baffled as to how you spent a nano-second of energy on m after swearing to Jesus. It bothers me because I think you are using your premie experience as a basis of your understanding of your new religion. Whatever you do believe, Sean, you just can't interpret non-premie religious beliefs from within the context of premie-thought - you might just as well try to interpret Daniel based on a Little Golden Book rendering of the story of the lions.
I think you see some of the stories as reinforcing your own history as a premie - your belief that Jesus abandoned his family, for instance. There are many stories in the NT that demonstrate that he travelled widely, but frequently visited kin. Judea wasn't exactly a huge country: they got around plenty, and it wasn't as if the guy moved his gopis into ashrams and said fuck the world, we got our blanky. Check those gospels you like so much. Full of family snapshots... many of the characters in the gospels are his cousins, like John the Baptist.
And there are references to transcendent experiences that pre-date his baptism by John by decades, especially if you read the Catholic version, and he was well-enough versed in his understanding of Talmud, Hillel, etc., to confound the rabbis at the age of 12, no? Not exactly unremarkable. For what would he need to get k from the John/Guru character, when he'd already spent most of his life arguing Messianic esotericism - he knew the drill and what had to happen if he wanted to qualify as the Messiah. All over the OT if you don't believe me.
Further, the OT is important if you're really into this stuff because it establishes the family lineage: this is important to your understanding of what you're getting into, frankly - it establishes the basis of your faith, and demonstrates why m has no freakin' place whatever in it. The Slaughter of the Innocents wasn't something Herod dreamed up just to be a jerk, and the whole country wasn't inflamed with Messianic fever and revolutionary fervor just because they were bored at university. Robert Graves and Josephus to the rescue on this subject, if you're at all interested in that.
I'd also suggest that the destruction of the money-lender's little racket was very much in keeping with the way Jesus saw things. He saw a place that was holy to him defiled by people who pretended to be all about religion, but were really all about the buck. Ahem. Remind you of anything? Anyway, this was always the place in the sermon where I'd want to yell, "Yay Jesus, kick their asses!" (of course, I'd never have dared to actually DO that, but it's my favourite).
Finally, Judas Iscariot. The betrayer, by revealing inner secrets? A secret cult, Sean? Not. There are lots of ways people interpret that story, and more is coming out recently with the publication of those new codices... but we should stick to the gospels as you understand them, and on that ground I say there is nowhere where it says that Judas told anyone anything, except where Jesus could be found. Show me where, I dare you. You can't cast Judas as an ex-premie manmut without stretching the point longer than Judas's neck, frankly.
I don't know, Sean. Your love for Jesus is clearly sincere, but your reading I think is very limited at this point. I am sure you will not be able to support your present opinions about m if you try to make a point of stepping out of your premie conditioning. I really hope you think hard, and discuss it very seriously with your wife. The gospels and Paul are good enough for lots, I guess, but it's only one part of the elephant. You really can only give your whole heart to one. Otherwise, you haven't given it all. I hope you will talk to your wife about that.
I'm sorry you think that people are after you here. Not that your feeling is completely unfounded - some of them really are - but you're certainly awake, aren't you? They are a challenging bunch, not at all like the gentle premies (who will always love you to bits, at least while you're buying the beer), but at least they respect you enough to give a shit. I was impressed that you admitted that some of your aggression over the last week or so has happened because you got mad when people started moving on and derailing the ego-rush you'd been enjoying. See? Another piece of Prem falls away already. It only gets better.
Best wishes, px
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There's a joke about a guy who trusts that God will save him from a flood (the joke has many forms) and as he sits on a roof he is offered various forms of help but he refuses them all because he has faith that God will save him. Finally he is drowned and goes before God and berates Him saying I had faith you would save me and yet here I am dead. God answered that he sent the various forms of help but that the deceased refused them all. It's particularly funny done as a Yiddish joke and no doubt would be funny as racist Irish joke as well.So God is trying to tell you that before you judge Prem Rawat's greed or other qualities you do actually have to examine his life. For myself, the way he has taken the majority of the money donated to his "mission" for his own vulgar opulent lifestyle is evidence of his greed. You do know about his opulent lifestyle don't you? And Sean it's been over 35 years since those "not -always -stable premies who may themselves engage in suboptimal behavior and beliefs" came into his agya. There's not too many years left for that devotion to take effect, actually considerably less than 35 years. And Sean, you've already explained that you haven't relied upon this meditation, actually you've hardly used it so please cut the spiritual crap. You haven't tried the meditation since 1977 and you haven't been receiving Prem Rawat's guidance. Actually you have completely rejected taking the guidance that he has offered, it's pretty simple: he gives the guidance in his speeches and you're supposed to listen to them and he has at least made it easy for you to hear his speeches, not cheap but easy. Sean, grow up. Go away, study the public information available about Prem Rawat by reading ex-premie org. There's lots of information there written by academics and reporters and lots of written satsangs by him and videos of him and statements by people you considered knew far more about Knowledge than you ever did and there's lots of web sites abour Prem Rawat in his current incarnation of Teacher of Inner Peace written by his "students". Try meditating for 6 months and subscribe to the monthly Elan Vital DVDs and listen to them and then if you wish come back and talk about Prem Rawat and his Knowledge and what you think about it. So far it's all about you and at least premies talk about him and not themselves.
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Ocker,
>Try meditating for 6 months and subscribe to the monthly Elan
>Vital DVDs and listen to them So, you are trying to tell me to spend 6 months of serious and
dedicated satsang, service and meditation? And just whose side
did you say you were on? Kidding aside, Ocker, you are exactly right. It is kind of
pointless for me to post these statements if I don't back them
up with actual practice. [update] Argh, second edit in one night! The clock started
about 1 week ago. Do you want to know who was the loser that
set me off to either be a premie the right way or give it up?
It was this post:
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/8409.html
Kind Regards, Sean
Modified by sean at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 00:23:53
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I see myself on the side of truth. It seems really silly for you to hang in limbo, believing in a person you have nothing to do with and believing in a practise you don't practise. Mind you it's not as if there aren't lots of premies who don't meditate or do service or can even be relied upon to attend "important" satsangs.
As far as I can tell you're far too intelligent and decent not to see what sort of person Rawat is once you start to receive and listen to those DVDs. If you want I'll send you some of my collection though they are mainly the ones where he is looking ridiculous dancing, singing or saying he is God. The others bore me shitless as we say down under. You can get my email address from the moderators.
About 10 or 15 years ago a young man about to receive Knowledge came to my home. I think he was coming to pick up some equipment for a program or something that required a trailer and heavy lifting. He actually was rude enough to make a comment about what sort of loser I was to have "left Knowledge". I kept a straight face but I figured he was nowhere near humble enough to last very long in Rawatism especially as he was marrying a premie who barely hung on herself because she was so miserable most of the time.
I was right, he didn't last long. You, on the other hand, are ridiculously humble so you'd better be careful. Talk it over with your wife as you go along. Good luck.
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M wanted to show you what is in you . You meditate you have the experience M revaeled it to you .but any teacher may have .You are having the expereince by what YOU DO and you can have it without him it is in you it is all up to you but if you want to meditate on him then that is what you will see . If you meditate on the lite then you will see the lite .
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But of course, I am a partisan, who badly needs someone to serve this role, lest I be left stranded with meditation, but no guru to provide guidance. As Jim points out, you haven't really been using Maharaji as your guide, have you? So what is he to you? Is he someone you think about, someone who you'll eventually devote yourself to, but just haven't found the impetus yet to do so? I know, for me, it was a lot like that. I would be a premie in spurts. I'd really do my best to be diligent for a few months here, a few months there, go years without any satsang, then get back in gear, then fade away, but always prepared to make another go at it. It was kind of like sticking to an exercise routine, you know? Sometimes you stick with it, sometimes you don't. Has it been like that for you? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you've got this guru/devotee relationship going on with Maharaji in your head, but you're not even making an effort to hold up your end as devotee. It's all in your head, isn't it? A dream. Whatever floats your boat.
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Hi Jerry,>As Jim points out, you haven't really been using Maharaji as
>your guide, have you? I personally would disagree but suspect most objective
observers would with agree with you. >So what is he to you? He is the person I was taught to try to feel devotion
towards, as part of the knowledge package. I still
believe in knowledge and in Maharaji's place in it. >Is he someone you think about, someone who you'll eventually
>devote yourself to, but just haven't found the impetus yet to
>do so? No. Early on, I devoted myself fulltime to Maharaji in COLL.
This was in the 1974-1976 timeframe, I think. I will not say
I did this 100% for two reasons:
1. Although my earnings were given for service, my IRS refunds
were cashed by myself in order to visit my family each year.
2. I never joined the ashram. >I know, for me, it was a lot like that. I would be a premie in
>spurts. I'd really do my best to be diligent for a few months
>here, a few months there, go years without any satsang, then
>get back in gear, then fade away, but always prepared to make
>another go at it. It was kind of like sticking to an exercise
>routine, you know? Sometimes you stick with it, sometimes you
>don't. Has it been like that for you? It doesn't sound like
>it. It sounds like you've got this guru/devotee relationship
>going on with Maharaji in your head, but you're not even
>making an effort to hold up your end as devotee. It's all in
>your head, isn't it? A dream. No. Actually your first description of being a premie in
spurts has been a lot like mine. It sounds precisely like my
experience for about the past 20+ years. Sean
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Hi Sean, So now you are a 20 year plus Premie after all. Who still doesn't know if he is cuming or going because you came in spurts too. You took a great post and hung your hat on it. I changed my opinion about you. I think your a dumb ass and I don't like your stupid smiley faces either. Grow up! Or Surrender to the Lord OK? Like you were suppost too! This attachment is from Prem Rawat's talk called the "Fight The Unseen Demon" Denver, July 8, 1975. You remind me of Prem Rawat with your wishy washy talk! Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 02:09:22
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Hi Hilltop, great quote. Do you also have translations?
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Re: post apt analogy; Re maharaji quote, I tried to really understand it, reading it several times over, before I realized its point was its wishy-washy-ness, most mind numbing.
It's like a cloud of powerful words thrown like bucketfuls in your face, with nothing to connect or substantiate them. Dozens of little poisonous darts, any one of them could get under the skin and inject a person with ....... I'm speechless, run out of images. The effects are measured in decades and lives.
Modified by LP at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 05:29:46
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Hi Lp, That translation... wishy washy and shit or get off the pot was for Sean only. I was grumpy last nite, now I'm better. As far as understanding or making sense of Prem Rawat's words, well I can't do it. They are brain twisters and serve only to confuse and destoy the mind as far as I can tell. I think what you said about Prem Rawat's words sums it up nicely. Best thoughts to you Lp (Sean too)... Hilltop
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Hi Hilltop, that's what I thought you meant, eventually..
but how can you think straight with his ingrowing sentences still wearing your shoes?
Best thoughts to you dear Hilltop, and a huge thankyou.
Lp
Modified by LP at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 04:24:44
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Hi Lp. I just reread what you said in your post (above) about Prem Rawat's words & I think it's well worth reposting. Sure it's short and sweet but I love it. Right To the point! I can think straight because I don't wear shoes, I wear sneakers. Thank You Lp for all your contributions & kind words to me. Your friend, Hilltop
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I like this part. Do you know about sucker fish? Well, if a shark is there and a sucker fish is around, he is going to cling to the shark. But if there is no shark around, then the fish can't cling to it. In the same way, if we stand out like a sore thumb, there is always something that can stick to us. So just take away that sore thumb; give it in surrender. Doesn't it just make you want to go, "huh"? That's the clarity of the master, sean. That's what you've got to look forward to on your next "spurt". Have fun.
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Hi Sean, Thank you for your responses. I have one other question if you'd be kind enough to answer. If your experience as a premie is like mine was, why do you keep going back and forth? For me, I would give it another shot in the hopes that this time it would all come to fruition. But then, I'd fade away after awhile because I wasn't experiencing what I wanted. Is it like that for you or is there some other reason why you're in that revolving door?
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Jerry,I think you are a little late to join the fun. I am finally
starting to understand how this game is played, shame on
me that it took so long. Sean
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I was just asking a simple question, sean. I don't know what you mean about "how this game is played". That's left for me to imagine. But, whatever, I was just trying to understand something. If you think I've got something up my sleeve, you're wrong. I'm not trying to convince you of anything or change your mind about anything. At best I would recommend that you heed your own critical faculties on how to approach Maharaji and Knowledge. For many of us that is the major flaw in Maharaji's program, that there is no encouragement to concede to our own judgement. One of the commandments, if you recall, if to "remove all doubt from your mind". We would recommend that you fully investigate those doubts, if you have them, and understand why they're there.
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Jerry,The game, in my opinion, is as ugly as it gets, and I don't
intend to play it anymore. If you want to evoke an honest,
vulnerable and open response from me, then give me some
honesty, vulnerability and openness. You have a valid question for me, "why do you keep going back
and forth?". Fine. I was struck by your question and I found
that I did not have a ready answer. But if you want
to know my thoughts on this question, and what it means to me,
then you need to put yourself on the line first.
Tell me something, I am listening. Regards,
Sean
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I'm not sure what you want to hear, sean. You're telling me to put something on the line. I think I have. I told you what my involvement with Maharaji was, how I was stuck in a revolving door. You seem to be in the same place. What more to you want to hear? Do you want to hear why I'm no longer in that door? I got tired of it. I got tired of walking away empty, so I finally just walked away, period. What else do you want to hear? What kind of game do you think I'm playing here? I'm just having an open discussion with you. At least on my side that's what it is. What about on your side?
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Jerry,It's not so easy is it? I am not especially interested
in hearing testimonies that tend to reinforce your
position on this forum. It reminds me depressingly of the
preacher who when asked what his greatest sin was,
replied, "Oh, sometimes I just try too hard for the Lord,
you know?" Tell me some truth that doesn't make you sound
like the ideal ex-premie. Regards,
Sean
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I apologize for calling you an asshole. But you're acting that way. You're acting like a priest looking for some kind of confession, or something. In truth, you're acting... weird. If you can't have an honest, open discussion about Maharaji, then I'm not interested. So let's just drop it, okay? Best wishes to you.
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Sean, Perhaps you don't know this, but Jerry and others you are asking to "put themselves on the line," already have done so on the ex-premie forums for years now. Btw, have you read any of the Ex-premie Journeys on EPO? I recommend that you read A.J.W.'s first but they're all worth reading. Here's the link: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/journeys.htm
Related link: Ex-Premie Journey Index
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 11:47:14
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Cynthia,>Btw, have you read any of the Ex-premie Journeys on EPO? Yes, of course, many of them. Partly to see what old
friends might have said, and partly to listen for
echoes of my own experiences. >I recommend that you read A.J.W.'s first but they're all worth
>reading. I tried, early on, because I thought he might be AJ, a person
I knew at COLL. Plus he was first in the list. But when in
the first paragraph, he wrote, "My wife looked like a skeleton.
She was dying from dehydration.", I lost all interest in
reading about this loser, who would let that happen to his wife. However, based solely on your recommendation, I read the whole
journey, from start to finish, with an open mind. People who
get to live and work near Maharaji don't get extra credibility
from me. But Ashram premies do, deserved or not, so I
gave him the benefit of the doubt. What can I say? I am sorry
he lost his faith. It is not the worst thing in the world,
but it must have been painful. I don't think he is going to hell for leaving knowledge.
First paragraph and anti-maharaji bitterness aside, he
sounds like a good soul, I imagine he will find something
else. I hope and expect that he has. My dear friend, don't patronize me. Anyone who has had
knowledge for a long enough period of time has entertained
all of the ideas that AJW expressed. You either keep your
faith, or hopefully you find some other good thing to have
faith in. This is not a sport, premie vs ex-premie, with
points awarded to the team with the most converts.
I don't think there are sides here, there are just people
trying to find their way. Just my opinion. Hopefully still your friend,
Sean
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Sean, I knew an American premie named AJ at DECA, but don't remember where he was from. AJW is Anth Ginn, a British ex-premie, and he's not a loser. Why would you say such a thing? I don't think he is going to hell for leaving knowledge. You've got your religions mixed up. Is that the Christian Sean or the Rawatism Sean speaking? My dear friend, don't patronize me. Anyone who has had knowledge for a long enough period of time has entertained all of the ideas that AJW expressed. You either keep your faith, or hopefully you find some other good thing to have faith in. How was I patronizing you? I did find it a bit pushy that you were making demands on people to tell you things about themselves. Who are you to demand anything of people here? You're the one who can here because you were confused. This is not a sport, premie vs ex-premie, with points awarded to the team with the most converts. I don't think there are sides here, there are just people trying to find their way. Just my opinion. I don't know what you're talking about. But, in the real world, the real Rawat cult has hurt ex-premies badly by using their real names and contacting their real employees in an attempt get them fired and to shut us up. Premies online have created entire websites to defame ex-premies by name, myself included. No, this isn't sport, but sometimes it does feel like war. There most definitely are "sides" Sean. What the hell forum have you been reading? Certainly not this one, at least not with much comprehension! How come you're not posting on the premie chat room? It's linked above. Try it out. See how much you can discuss about all your confusions there! I dare you to even mention ashrams or ashram premies to current day premies. Go ahead, do it, Sean. I'd love to hear the reaction you get over there! Here's the link: http://premiechat.com/ Sheesh!!! You've got some balls.
Related link: Premie Chat room
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 08:54:58
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Sean, You can "admire" ashram premies all you want. You left the cult and got yourself an education and a family. I'll bet you even have a house and a couple of nice cars. Got yourself a second home yet? What have you got now Sean, that we ashram premies gave up for Rawat, that you so admire in us? How convenient for you. How sweet that after 20 years you're here, using up our time to clear up your confusions about a personality cult you left years ago. There are a lot of ashram premies who became exes because of the promise that Rawat broke to them. Get it Sean? They gave up the possibility of careers, having children, and in some cases, their good health for Prem Rawat. Do you know what it feels like to give up those things all for a fraud and a conman who is sitting pretty in Malibu with a jet, helicopters, and servants? In some ways you really are a typical premie with the typical premie mentality. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Read this, Sean and understand: No one who posts on this forum owes you anything. Got that? Cynthia http://premiechat.com/
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 09:05:39
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OK I get it. I was offensive in my post to you, and I
think to many others over the past few days, and I
apologize for that. I think I have worn out my welcome.
Should have realized it a week ago, but better late
than never.
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.....we are individuals who post on this forum with different experiences and opinions.JHB who runs this forum along with ( I think) Mike Finch , hasn't seen fit to ban you so apparently you haven't "outstayed your welcome". It's clear you are confused about the whole premie trip.I think any premie who is honest is confused some ,if not most, of the time. Some of the people who post here have gone through terrible experiences because of premies targeting them for exing and talking about it. Luckily this has never happened to me. If you feel you can still learn something by asking questions here ,then do. Either way Sean, best wishes to you. Lexy.
Modified by lexy at Sun, Jul 16, 2006, 12:55:14
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Sean, You've said that twice now at least, however. The first time you said that you expected to "wear out your welcome." I don't know why you said it then either. I didn't say you ought not to post here anymore. What? Are you a mind reader now too? You did say some things that angered me, however, and you yourself admitted that you've been saying offensive things to people here this week and I have to wonder why. Is it because you're hooking up with premies in Austin soon? Apology accepted. Cynthia
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I came here because I wanted to make new friends, and I
wanted to do this people with whom I had shared history
and values. I see that this was doomed to fail, but not
for the obvious reasons. I tend to get melodramatic
on internet forums and don't take criticism well. I got a
lot of attention at first, which I of course enjoyed, but
as I felt people's attention move on, my posts got meaner
and more angry, more attention-seeking if you will.I also need to move on and will try to connect with the
local premies, since I tend to do a little better when
I actually meet people face to face, and can't get away
with being so self-involved. Thank you for accepting my
apology. I have valued what I perceived to be, and hope
was, your friendship.
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Hi Sean, there is a satsang model we discussed that was supposed to represent an appropriate attitude to saving drowning people.
If they struggle push them under?. You might remember it. This was not seen as human nature nor compassionate. Nor was it judged to be effective in real life situations, though Lesley cited incidences of double drownings where the rescuer drowns with the rescuee.
But this applied to how to give satsang, perhaps. I think of "bus stop satsang". The new person has until the next bus comes to decide whether he wants "enlightenment" in this life or not.
Not interested?" Here's the bus. "You might have just blown your one and only chance buddy!", a voice trails, fading from rear platform (red double decker).
We are not following any crede now and are all different, but I am amazed you think we, collectively are playing a game; still, not the point I am making.
I doubt anyone reaching over the side, to help you out of the water, would throw you back if you struggled, nor if they were getting wet, mind much, but if you are still too inebriated with the cocktail of lies that caused you to fall in, in the first place, and if you demonstrate by your own shifts of heart and perspective that you are playing a game, while not decided whether to finish your uni. course..
And if it is quite clear that you are actually able to swim, though not sober enough to see the serious dangers and the earnest intentions in the various individuals who post here; their concern for your predicament as one who is self evidently still on the hook and line of belief might diminish: you can't help "caught fish"....
And if our boat is starting to take on water, from your aquatic antics and dramatics, we might go and empty out our boat and start a new tack in new waters.
But I doubt that you will find anyone rejecting you or giving up on your potential to be a friend. So far you arouse more suspicion probably than trust, since you cannot say anything in criticism of maharaji. This is a virtue towards almost all human beings but not in the case of maharaji. To be able to express the old human form of criticism towards maharaji is a good sign. This has been blocked. By clearing that blockage the rest of the healing is able to begin.
Perhaps you could allow yourself more healing space by more anonymity in solitude. Healing begins in criticism of the "master", freedom begins in rejecting the "lord". You have to say it to yourself to "move on" you cannot move on from us we do not represent any one particular view. I remembered another "click" or notch on the drip counter, came, as I walked once, feeling peeved at maharaji: when my thoughts of anger towards him caused me to express my feelings by swinging my walking staff at the brambles that crossed my path. You can bow your way in but you can't bow your way out. You have to struggle out of the dense undergrowth, towards, what you hope is the end of the jungle.
Trying, repeatedly to offer a man in the water, your arm and getting soaked or capsized is not a platform for starting friendships.
You are not likely to find any common ground such as "We all were in the ashram once" or "We've all felt that love, done that service blah, blah",
You will take a giant leap on to dry land the day you have the courage to look at maharaji without rose coloured spectacles. If he's not God, (AND HE IS NOT!) then he is not just a man: he's the worst kind of rip off. He has no middle ground option.
So far I have only offered a hand, friendship might have been later, you seem however to just laugh and jump back in: sign up for another year.
To me; I presume, it is because when I criticise maharaji you wince. It is, I believe, because you are joined to him by a tissue....
Lp
P.S. Ah.. Saun, at the risk of seeming to be making rules and raising the Julie italics thing, can I respectfully request that you not
>disconnect
>my words and analyse them
>in pieces but read, if you like, what I have written as a whole; and then write something whole back.
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 17, 2006, 08:54:44
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Sean, I came here because I wanted to make new friends, and I wanted to do this people with whom I had shared history and values. I see that this was doomed to fail, but not for the obvious reasons. There are millions of chatrooms on the internet to find friends, but I don't recommend looking to the net to make friends with people. One really needs human to human contact, although over the years here on the ex-premie forum, I grown to be fond and even love those who have offered me friendship and trust. Trust is the key word. Many of us don't share the same values just because we were in a cult. In fact, we discovered right after 9/11 that our political views are all over the map. I tend to get melodramatic on internet forums and don't take criticism well. I got a lot of attention at first, which I of course enjoyed, but as I felt people's attention move on, my posts got meaner and more angry, more attention-seeking if you will. When I have had personal problems I've gone to see a therapist to work them out, or I talk to real life friends, face to face. This isn't a place to work out your personal problems. None of us are professionals. I also need to move on and will try to connect with the local premies, since I tend to do a little better when I actually meet people face to face, and can't get away with being so self-involved. I think folks here weren't letting you get away with being so self-involved. It made you angry and terse. But, only you can make the choices for yourself about your life. Fine, go and talk with premies. I hope your expectations are not too high. Btw, "connecting with premies" these days means contacting the "contact person" and going to view a video. There's no "trying" about it. That's the process, and that's all there is because there aren't any communities anymore. There isn't much talking to each other anymore -- that was my experience in the late 1990s. The "keeping in touch" part of practicing Knowledge now is to go to and support financially the local video events, watch videos by yourself at home (or watch the local access channels that carry M's speeches), and to go and see M at programs. But, you will see for yourself and judge the experience for yourself. Thank you for accepting my apology. No problem. Nothing you said is unforgiveable. It's water under the bridge. Be well, Cynthia Here's the link to contact.info to get in touch. http://contactinfo.net/ Here's the page for info about Austin (now you have no excuse!) http://www.midsouthconnect.net/localinfo.cfm?id=2
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Jul 17, 2006, 07:19:03
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Shakespeare (Romeo and Juliet)
Modified by Nigel at Thu, Jul 13, 2006, 14:34:59
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What Guidence has M provided ? Whatever there was who would want to follow his example ? Here is the K now worship me and suppuort me finacally . the K and the technices are in the do in book ,and etc . Take the K it is free and apply yourself and forget M after all it is free
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Hi Sean, I'm glad to see you back. Ocker has already demonstrated that I am not really a premie, so do you really think this applies to me? Nobody can determine if you're a premie but yourself, Sean. We have some things in common. I also had a long separation from Maharaji, in terms of practicing regularly, and especially going to see him. I was angry with him for sending me away from the DECA project, where I served him and saw him every day. I felt I was an "exiled gopi." It was very complicated. I prayed to Maharaji every day. I also got married to a non-premie in 1983, when I was "out of contact" with Maharaji. However, during that entire period of time not a day passed when I didn't love, adore, and think of Maharaji or consider myself a devoted premie, and I did go back. The funny thing (not haha funny) about going back was that nothing had changed except the outward trappings. Those had changed significantly and it wasn't that I didn't like those trappings, it was that they had become so fake and empty and superficial. I smelled a rat. When I spoke in devotional terms about M I was shunned and it was obvious I was then committing a taboo. I wasn't welcomed back as a long-lost family member. Not at all. When I spoke about DECA I was silenced. I smelled the smell of a rotten corpse. The smell was accumulating. Money was a very high priority. I still was a gopi in love with Maharaji though. Premies still believe Maharaji is the lord of the universe. They still believe deeply that they are on the right and only path to salvation, a la Jesus Christ, et al. They still feel superior to other human beings because of what they "know," and hide it expertly because it's taboo in our society to love a living human being as the absolute Lord of Creation. It's now especially taboo to discuss openly one's devotion to and adoration of Maharaji among anyone but the most devoted premies. That's what I experienced here in Vermont. Maharaji himself was the one who ultimately pushed me into realizing he's a cult leader, but that's my story that everyone already knows. Should you go back to Maharaji and see what it's like? I don't know, that's up to you to decide. I can tell you one thing, and that's that the entire cult is weirder to me now than it was in the 70s. Why? Because of all the baldfaced lying going on everywhere on every level by all the premies. A lie by omission is still a lie and premies do this all the time. It's inexcusable. The web of tangled lies has become so great that being around premies and following Rawat as he prescribes PWK's (People With Knowledge) now feels like having one's stomach punched repeatedly thus losing one's breath while having a gag on one's mouth. You may still be premie, Sean, but you're not a PWK. Talk to me Sean. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 11:54:13
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Cynthia, >Nobody can determine if you're a premie but yourself Agreed, but I don't know if it is still an accurate description
of me, a lot of time has passed. This is something that I am
trying to find out. I owe you a response from another post: >Magical thinking is a child's belief that what he or she
>wishes or expects can affect what really happens. For example,
>if a child wants very much for something to happen, and it
>does, the child believes he or she caused it to happen. If
>your daughter is mad at her brother and wants him to leave,
>and he then gets sick and goes to the hospital, your daughter
>may think her brother's illness is her fault. I can agree with this definition of magical thinking. >I think some of us were stuck in that mode of thinking/feeling
>when we first heard satsang. I think this was true for myself. >You believe you have an inner Maharaji. Let me try to say this in a different way. I don't think the
universe "just happened". OTOH, it is a pretty big place for a
single personality to manage. I do believe that humans have a
capacity to know internally, in some sense, whatever it is that
underlies the world, our lives and our conciousness. I use the
term "inner Maharaji" because meditation, and devotion to
Maharaji is the path that I find myself on, but that is just my
personal point of view, it's not intended to be true for
everyone, everywhere. Is there an element of magical thinking
in this? Perhaps, I have to consider that may be the case. >Why are you holding on so tight to those ideas? Because they are very important to me. Cynthia, thank you so much for telling me your story about
being a premie.
Very Best Regards,
Sean
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Sean,Lots of people believe in an inner spiritual presence, and no doubt give that entity many names. if you want to call it Maharaji it's your choice, but from my perspective I must say it's a really strange choice. But this forum is about the person called Prem Rawat who also calls himself Maharaji. Apart from teaching meditation, which lots of other people also teach, what has he got to do with your inner spiritual life? I am certain that he has got nothing to do with it. Regarding the question of whether you are a premie, this can be easily resolved. Do you have a high regard for the person of Prem Rawat, to the extent that you will not entertain serious criticism of him? If so, you are a premie. John.
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Hi JHB, >But this forum is about the person called Prem Rawat who also
>calls himself Maharaji. Apart from teaching meditation, which
>lots of other people also teach, what has he got to do with
>your inner spiritual life? If you are asking me what I know rationally for certain, I have
to answer that I do not know. What I believe is a different
matter. >Regarding the question of whether you are a premie, this can
>be easily resolved. Do you have a high regard for the person
>of Prem Rawat, to the extent that you will not entertain
>serious criticism of him? If so, you are a premie. I do not accept this as a valid conditional.
Yes, I do have a high regard for the person of Prem Rawat.
Yes, I will entertain serious criticism of him. No human being,
including Maharaji, is immune from criticism.
[update] Sorry, I try not to change my posts after I write
them, but I meant to add, Yes, I am a premie. Thank you for actually asking some difficult questions.
Sean
Modified by sean at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 00:10:49
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Sean, Real premies don't talk about it. Why? Not allowed! Maybe it's time for a little humor."Sponge Slob Fat Pants"
Modified by Hilltop at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 04:04:15
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Sean, You mentioned that Maharaji is devoted to following his father's agya. Well, in 1999, Maharaji declared he had fulfilled that agya and was moving on to Phase II (whatever that is, is anyone's guess). ...I use the term "inner Maharaji" because meditation, and devotion to Maharaji is the path that I find myself on, but that is just my personal point of view, it's not intended to be true for everyone, everywhere. Is there an element of magical thinking in this? Perhaps, I have to consider that may be the case. You're not on any path to devotion of Maharaji if you're posting on this forum. Didn't you know that? The general concensus here is that we were followers of a downright conman and fraud, and people come here to post in order to deconstruct the mindf**k inflicted upon us, by -- you guessed it -- Prem Rawat, a/k/a Maharaji, a/k/a Guru Maharaj Ji. That's the in reason that I post on this forum. I can state with certainty that the purpose of this forum isn't to encourage anyone to be a devotee of Prem Rawat! Elan Vital and Prem Rawat refer to ex-premies as a hate group because we criticize Rawat openly. Have you even looked at the Elan Vital websites recently? Premies are very paranoid about ex-premies. Frankly, after all the exchanges between you and others here, I'm surprised you're still referring to an "inner Maharaji." Prem Rawat is Maharaji. He not inside of you or anyone else. He doesn't have any special powers, except that of persuasion, because he's a cult leader. To think that is not just magical thinking, it's a downright lie that many of us have spent extraordinary amounts of time discussing here over years, in order to get ourselves out of Rawat's greedy clutches. Why would you want Prem Rawat to be inside of you? That's quite a creepy thought. Are you pulling our chains here, Sean? Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Jul 13, 2006, 06:44:53
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That's what I think it is. Sean thinks there's somebody in this world who's going to make it all better for him. We all felt that, of course, but some of us would do it more "long distance" than others. You've done that yourself. Even when you weren't actively participating you were still thinking about Maharaji, maybe finding comfort in the belief that somebody who had "the answer" was there for you. That's a big part of being a premie, believing Maharaji is "the one". You don't even have to meditate or go to satsang. You just hold on to this idea in your head that it's all going to be okay because Maharaji is in the world, and one day I'll get it together and become the premie I want to be and should be. That's Sean. Long distance devotee. Living on a prayer and a dream.
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Sean, I've not been reading your whole bio and thing below, have trouble keeping up with the new Cast, but Cynthia has again hit all the nails on the head for you. Devotion is an inner mind problem that is hard to come out from under. I was poor from a life of devotional living during the 70's and 80's, even after leaving the ashram, just kept flying and listening to the same thing over and over. Expensive hobby. And, yes, I felt swept to the side by the darshan for sale "trainings" and their "Major Donor" private meetings, events, darshans, etc. in the late 90's, early 2000s. It was sickening and hurtful to me. The entire last 15 years have been an example of the con of the past 35 years: Travel the world, fly jets, stay in amazing places with an entourage, and have a charitable organization on the side, all legal, to support just a celebrity cult club of travelling fellow rich "devotee/students" of Mr. Malibu Prem, one of the Hollywood "haves," all in the name of propoagation of this so-called meditation, whose results at success were statistically stinky. But who cares, gotta travel the world and talk. And which meditation basically to put it nicely one can take or leave. I left it by the wayside. I do not feel guilty. I tried for 30 unsuccessful years. Sean, just give up going inside. Go outside. Breath normally, though the oxygen masks might drop at any second: Think "What should Sean do? Not "What would Maharaji do?".
Modified by OTS at Thu, Jul 13, 2006, 20:54:19
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I was poor from a life of devotional living during the 70's and 80's, even after leaving the ashram, just kept flying and listening to the same thing over and over. Expensive hobby. Hi OTS, I laughed at your turn of phrase, "expensive hobby" and then thought. What it really was was something as fundamental as Rawat tricking us into thinking we didn't have to try in life. Our effort was all to escape it. Now, honestly, how f**cked is that? And how f**cked is it for all these premies to pretend that wasn't the program, that it didn't conflict in the slightest with making any headway in the world, a little money, a little comfort, a little success for Pete's sake? Well it's been said before. But it galls me to see someone like Sean pretend that worldly comfort and devotion to Rawat aren't -- or weren't, at least -- conflicted aspirations.
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Jim,>But it galls me to see someone like Sean pretend that worldly
>comfort and devotion to Rawat aren't -- or weren't, at least --
>conflicted aspirations. If by "worldly comfort" you mean providing for one's family
in a responsible way, then no, I see no conflict whatsoever.
Once again I have to ask, what is going on inside that
mind of yours? Sean
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Sean,How is living in an ashram for 8 years compatible with forging a successful career and family life? John.
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>How is living in an ashram for 8 years compatible with forging
>a successful career and family life?It is not. That is only one of the least important
reasons why ashram premies were, and are my heros.
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'providing for one's family
in a responsible way'
Mr Rawat does that, does he? What is resposible about flying the world in your own jet? Ever heard of global warming? How could anyone consume more than by living Rawat's lifestyle? Have you seen his huge property in Malibu? This largesse is 'responsible'?
How much comfort and security does his family need?
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13,Read Jim's post again, Sherlock. "But it galls me to see someone like Sean pretend that worldly comfort and devotion to Rawat aren't -- or weren't, at least -- conflicted aspirations." Unless I am mistaken, he was referencing premies, not
Maharaji. 13, I am putting a lot of effort and more time
than I can really spare into keeping up with these posts.
If you are going to respond, would you please do the same? Regards,
Sean
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What it really was was something as fundamental as Rawat tricking us into thinking we didn't have to try in life. Our Our effort was all to escape it. Now, honestly, how f**cked is that? And how f**cked is it for all these premies to pretend that wasn't the program, that it didn't conflict in the slightest with making any headway in the world, a little money, a little comfort, a little success for Pete's sake? Jim,Rawat didn't trick me into thinking "I didn't have to try in life". In Britain the seventies /early eighties were a time of poverty ,struggle, economic recession and hardship without Rawat's philosophies making my financial situation even worse! London was grimey and dank ( now unbelievably clean and beautiful by comparison with then.) It seemed impossible to earn a decent living no matter how well qualified you were or how hard you tried. This reality played into Rawat's hand and he seemed to hold the cards that would "save" us.So much of what he said ( about our sad ,dark, crap lives blah blah blah) was reflected in our daily struggle.That is really how I remember those times. I believe things were better economically in the States, and in the late seventies several of my friends ( not premies) moved from England to California where it seemed so easy to find work at that time ( even without papers) and have a decent standard of living. I suppose this is why Rawat wasted no time in abandoning Britain for America! In Britain the success of the boy guru " Maharaj Ji" was inextricably linked with the socio-economic situation at that time. Working together (for no pay) doing menial tasks we raised money for him and " world peace". Working alone I just about managed to pay the bills and the rent and have enough left over to pay for a seat on a rickety coach to a distant festival. So I worked together with other premies AND I worked alone. My attitude was that if I had to slave and struggle to survive ( which there seemed no escape from) I might as well get "saved" and hang out with " the Lord" in parallel. Yes,it was "an escape" and in those days there was often a high and heady vibe.
Modified by lexy at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 08:43:50
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Lexy, You make it sound like it was only natural for Brits then to have no sense of the very basic human drive to survive, succeed and better one's self, renunciation of which was what Knowledge was all about. That's what I mean when Rawat tricked us into thinking we didn't have to try in life. It couldn't have been that different over there. I mean where did Virgin come from? People everywhere have a natural desire to strive in life. Rawat's Hindu philosophy of renunciation f**ked with that. That's the point.
Modified by Jim at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 09:22:22
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I know that what I stated was true for an ordinary young adult living in Britain at that time.I have already posted about my memories of Sir Dave living in one room ,cold and damp with a couple of other premies ,unable to afford more than one bar of the electric fire. I have also posted about myself staggering back to my DAMP with mould growing on the walls flat, from the launderette with a big black bag full of wet washing 'cos I couldn't afford a washing machine or to use the dryer . I had a professional job but the pay was rubbish and "inflation" was through the roof. It wasn't just like this for premies....you can disbelieve it if it suits what you want to imagine. Funny that you mention Richard Branson and Virgin. I remember ,just before hearing about the arrival on the planet of the boy god, going with a schoolfriend to buy cut-price albums from a warehouse above some shops,in or near Tottenham Court Road. We climbed wooden steps and knocked on a door.A stoned hippy type guy in denim dungarees with long dark hair and a beard ( quite the stereotype and possibly Branson ) came to the door and we gave our order. He disappeared and returned with the albums and we paid the (cut) price.I can't remember if we got a toke on the joint but I don't think so but I think we got a receipt .I do remember that the Virgin philosophy at that time ( the outfit was already called "Virgin" ) was all ( ostensibly) about non-capitalism, NOT ripping off the customer and giving the brother hippy a fair deal.mmmmmm. A bit like "Rainbow" groceries...the premie health food shop in South London ;but they actually used free premie labour to make their profits. I agree that prem's philosophy stifled our natural urge to strive for success but I'm just saying that other factors were also important in our desperate plight
Modified by lexy at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 10:51:07
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In Britain the seventies /early eighties were a
time of poverty ,struggle, economic recession and hardship without
Rawat's philosophies making my financial situation even worse!
That'll mean you think Margaret Thatcher was just the greatest, no? I don't remember the socio-economic situation, which yes was pretty dire, being of much consequence to the generality of premies, who tended to think that any interest shown by their brothers & sisters in the matter, was evidence of being ' in their mind.'
I turned down 2 opportunities, during the 70's, to go into business ( with non-premies). I really wanted to do it both times, but there was that little thing.........'never delay in attending satsang', & as that would've been impossible, I regretfully went with the Lord of the fucking Universe.
One of the guys is probably just as rich as Rawat, if not more so now, & the other one is a long way from the breadline, which frankly yours truly isn't. I'm not bitter about this btw, just stating facts.
I suppose this is why Rawat wasted no time in abandoning Britain for America!
You must be joking. He has maintained a property in England from the very beginning, & in those days spent months at a time here. Just like many others in the multi club, he operates globally.
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I remember the 1970s and early eighties very well Pat.I may have been a premie but I wasn't THAT blind,deaf and dumb and I was struggling to survive in my early twenties ( bottom of the ladder ,career wise) in London.Nobody offered me wondrous business opportunities as happened to you. Why on earth does my post mean I support Margaret Thatcher ? Non-sequitur Pat. I just told it the way I remember it.I lived in France through most of the Thatcher years so I can't talk about that era in England. Before the damp council flat, I lived in a squat in Brixton and paid £4 to the woman upstairs for the privilege.I thought it was fantastic as my aspirations weren't very high ! I didn't explain myself very well but I do agree that Rawat stifled and discouraged our worldly ambitions, but in this he was aided by the economic conditions which made me feel that outside of his "world" it really was "Maya" and a horrible, unhappy struggle.It was nice for me to escape from all that into disassociation and satsang. Me :I suppose this is why Rawat wasted no time in abandoning Britain for America!
You: You must be joking. He has maintained a property in England from the very beginning, & in those days spent months at a time here. Just like many others in the multi club, he operates globally. Pat,surely I've been posting here long enough for you to know that I know perfectly well that he has a house in Reigate. I've been there several times,done service and was even invited by and met him there one time. Nevertheless, he married an American , settled in the USA and spent far more time there than in England. ( makes noise in back of throat and looks up to the heavens like Manuel in Fawlty Towers )
Modified by lexy at Fri, Jul 14, 2006, 13:46:01
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......cage rattling with the M. Thatcher reference, but really she did put the country back on its feet, or parts of it at least.
( makes noise in back of throat and looks up to the heavens like Manuel in Fawlty Towers )
Point taken. I like your sense of humour.
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You are so right, Lexy. England was cold and clamy and grimey and poor back then, and same for us jumbling fool american kids, strong and heady, but poor, but with the conviction to spread peace everywhere via the Living Lord, who's come back to be with us and "save" us from the blazing fire of this dark world, like a father should, he explained. And if he didn't: "He's not a father!" I heard him squeek in person in the beautiful dusk of pink clouds high up in the Colorado Rocky Mountains at the first Guru Puja ("worship" festival held in the West in 1972. Standing next to him were smiling shining saints in flowing pink robes, one with long flowing hair, others bald, all with finely tailored vests. It was so convincing. The teen in white pajamas yelling into the night. Boldly, with no shame. Surrender to Me!! Yet we returned to a life of poverty. I jumped in shortly thereafter for good, in the ashram, surviving on rice and veggies and the love of my housemother(s). California was the answer. It was flowing with sun and organic fruits and vegetables and opportunity. Even a kid conman could see that. Why NOT be poor and hang with the Lord, you said it, sister. You Brits had no choice. Might as well just pass the plate and the tofu.
Modified by OTS at Sat, Jul 15, 2006, 14:12:27
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...you made me smile....and caught some of the essence of those times.We were young and inexperienced and it all seemed so amazing.
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Hi Jerry, Sean thinks there's somebody in this world who's going to make it all better for him. We all felt that, of course, but some of us would do it more "long distance" than others. Absolutely agree. Part of my own hanging on, albeit long distance, was the belief that I had the real answer, which was M's answer to the great mysteries of life. There are lots and lots of rationalizations a long distance premie can make. M's the lord, he'll take me back. He owns my soul, I should go back. Lots and lots of mindf**king ideas that can last for years. I wonder why Sean isn't posting on the premie chat forum instead of here. It's not as if he's going to get much support from us for his residual beliefs. It could be that old idea that going back means contact with other premies, and so many of us initially left blaming premies for the problems, not Maharaji. Of course, M's the one who's made the major the mistakes, and lead his followers down the garden path to so much strangeness (and misery).
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>Are you pulling our chains here, Sean?No. And I am sorry you felt it necessary to ask me this.
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Here's an old post that I liked... Hilltop
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Modified by Hilltop at Wed, Jul 12, 2006, 03:48:42
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This repost is, for me, one of the most powerful documents I can think of.
Each paragraph has a point to make which is shocking, even today. To think that three decades will soon have passed since first these words were broadcast.
And to think that I continued to attend programs, moving, like a sheep, with the community herd. If his secret life was this bad then, how much worse, must it have become by now?
I have printed up a copy of this and, must, this week, have read it a couple of dozen times. It still never fails to shock and move me with every paragraph. I intend to have photocopies made to have ready in my glove locker, should I encounter interested persons.
As I read this again and again I realize that one of the most powerful tools in maharaji's arsenal and one of the most dangerous for the mind, is the way he gets premies to become deaf and blind to such statements. They are not criticism, they are a painful reporting of facts, which were close to Bob's own heart and his own experience.
Up until the day I saw Bob's words in print, in a local paper (Denver), maharaji had successfully hidden some of the worst stuff from my eyes and let Bob and colleagues take the blame for mission failures.
I find it amazing that we forget so easily, but also suspect the unseen barriers which were induced to shield out negative reports of maharaji from our minds. Even now, I forget some of the salient points, in this document, after many readings. Any one should have been enough reason to walk. I hope no one will mind if I pull out some phrases from several of the paragraphs to call to mind these facts.
Even in his teens his drinking was causing excessive high blood pressure and black outs.
"people were being psychologically and economically exploited....he wouldn't want to deal with it. - he drank cognac..to the point that he was stewed every evening."
"He never cared to know the consequences of his actions. He knew what he wanted and that was it."
"- he hated to hear about premies -"
" ..this burden of playing God for people was killing him as well as being injurious to premies."
" ..his life is the antithesis of what he teaches,"
"I don't see how there can be a happy ending for anybody involved, including him... he's not even happy now, that's the irony... consumerism is like a disease with him."
"premies were living on the edge of destitution... the result of policies that he dictated."
"It was a shock to (Marolyn) to find out what maharaji was really like after she married him -"
" I have seen how maharaji manipulates her ..he would really berate her,. verbally assault her for an hour - and she would be reduced to tears.
This is more than enough to form the conclusion that maharaji is a total fraud and not at all a nice person. If anyone can take these facts on board and still follow m they must have had their human powers of judgement and discrimination altered or deactivated.
The big question now: for me: is:
"How do we reach those whose powers of discrimination have been disabled, before they, as his tools, lead more into maharaji's dark hell."
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 19, 2006, 09:20:27
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