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Marianne,>Sean, in the posts you have made, you blame yourself for not
>being a good student. You assume Rawat's good will. Has Rawat
>ever done anything that made you uncomfortable? Yes. >Have people around him ever done things that made you
>uncomfortable? Oh yes, that is putting it mildly. >Has anything ever happened during your years of involvement
>that made you consider putting aside your involvement with
>Rawat? If so, what happened? Never. >Do you have a career? A stable life? A college degree? A
>retirement plan? Yes to all. My physical concerns in life have been easy
to the point of absurdity. I can't justify this or explain
it. It's not grace, I think it was just being in the right
place at more or less the right time. I will give some
credit to my wife, who I love, but who can be an absolute
baddass when it comes to managing the money, career, family,
etc. >How does your family view your involvement with Rawat after
>all these years? I don't talk to them about this, other than in a general,
"meditation is good, finding a teacher is good" kind of way.
I will try to address this in my response to Ocker. Sean
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What things has Rawat done that make you uncomfortable? Ditto for those around him. You've said somewhere in these threads, I believe, that you are a seeker of truth. Don't you think there is much that is untruthful about the ways EV and Rawat are trying to rewrite his and the cult's history? The Gallery has a training video from 1999. I think it is the video - maybe it is just the audio. I have seen the video. Have you seen/listened to this? Have you ever been to one of Rawat's trainings? Ever spent any time around him personally? I would be interested in your reactions. Lastly, you said to Cynthia that you were glad to be able to talk to people here about "these things", because we understand. Have you tried talking to other premies? If not, why not? Or why doesn't the communication work? Marianne
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>What things has Rawat done that make you uncomfortable? The usual, stories of drinking, getting high and enjoying
money and the pleasures of life. I think this is my real
hypocrisy: that I would judge him for doing the same things
that I excuse in myself. >Ditto for those around him. I have never come into contact with those around him,
except peripherally in COLL, where I was not paying
attention to much of anything except satsang, service
meditation, and wordworking at Divine Flutes and
Dubose Floors  >You've said somewhere in these threads, I believe, that you
>are a seeker of truth. Don't you think there is much that is
>untruthful about the ways EV and Rawat are trying to rewrite
>his and the cult's history?
Definitely not. Anyone who interacts with the media must
IMHO tailor their image in order to get their message out.
George Bush, Pope Benedict XVI, Osama bin Laden; all have to
do this, to say nothing of legions of American
televangelists. Yes, it leaves me feeling a little insecure,
but I think it is his prerogative to set his own message. >The Gallery has a training video from 1999. I think it is the
>video - maybe it is just the audio. I have seen the video.
>Have you seen/listened to this? I will try to watch it and let you know. >Have you ever been to one of Rawat's trainings?
No. >Ever spent any time around him personally?
No. >Lastly, you said to Cynthia that you were glad to be able to
>talk to people here about "these things", because we
>understand. Have you tried talking to other premies? If not, >why not? Or why doesn't the communication work? I have never tried to talk to other premies about these
things. Perhaps I recall when others would try to talk
to me about it.
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Joe Whalen here. I remember you from COLL (at least I think it's you). It's been interesting reading your comments. But I wonder how you hold onto the belief system based on what you said you know about Rawat. I also have a bone to pick with how you just let him off the hook for the damage he did to people. Marianne asked: You've said somewhere in these threads, I believe, that you >are a seeker of truth. Don't you think there is much that is >untruthful about the ways EV and Rawat are trying to rewrite >his and the cult's history? And you answered: Definitely not. Anyone who interacts with the media must IMHO tailor their image in order to get their message out. George Bush, Pope Benedict XVI, Osama bin Laden; all have to do this, to say nothing of legions of American televangelists. Yes, it leaves me feeling a little insecure, but I think it is his prerogative to set his own message. Well, first of all, Rawat doesn't interact with the media. He just avoids it completely, and he certainly doesn't address critics, even his own former (or even current) followers. He doesn't do interviews except by paid hacks, so this idea that it's just a PR thing really isn't true. Plus, I'm sure you wouldn't let your kids or anyone you knew get away with outright lying, obfuscation and twisting of reality in order to "set a message." And of course, Rawat isn't a politician, or a terrorist, and as for the Pope, well at least the Pope finally admitted they were wrong about Gallileo, and apologized for anti-semitism. So, I don't think those analogies work in this case. It really isn't the same thing, is it? Prem Rawat, on the other hand, has lied, twisted facts and obfuscated the past and he certainly has avoided taking responsbility. So, it isn't quite the same thing as just "tailoring an image," is it? Plus, he is lying about other people's lives (including mine) as well as his own, and that is just plain reprehensible. Premies may be willing to let him get away with it because they believe he can do no wrong in relation to knowledge and his devotees, but ex-premies aren't compelled to do that. Second, although you said you "choose to believe" that sincere people aren't damaged by things like "devotion," I think that's really naive and maybe you would think a little more about that. In reality, it's the sincere people (as opposed to the skeptical ones) who are the most vulnerable to being used and abused, and that's exactly what Prem Rawat did to thousands of people like us. When you and I were both at COLL, the belief espoused by Rawat was that he was the "superior power in person" (his own words written by him as an intro to arti) and we sincerely acted in that belief. This caused a lot of damage to people like me, who gave up career, relationships, and relationships with family and friends based on the lies Rawat was telling us (whether he believed them or not.) If he no longer believes that, he should be held to the normal human standard of taking responsibility for his errors, which he hasn't done -- he hasn't even admitted the error. I also have hard time with the duality you present about the internal and external Maharaji. Frankly, it sounds like an easy rationalization. The internal Maharaji could be absolutely anything having nothing whatsoever to do with "Maharaji." What evidence or proof do you have that whatever it is, isn't just attributed to Maharaji because of your belief system that you don't question? It sounds suspiciously like rationalization, an attempt to hold onto some remnant of "Maharaji" which can't be held to any accountability. And the external Maharaji, well, I guess you already are questioning that. My speculation is that you have created the duality to keep yourself from questioning your beliefs, which I admit can be a hard thing to do, until you realize how much they stagnate you and keep you from growing and moving on. This is the conclusion I came to. Anyhow, hope all is well. I remember COLL fondly. Many of the people were really great, some of whom are still my friends.
Modified by Joe at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 16:33:23
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Joe, Hi, I remember you, and I also remember COLL fondly.
When my family visits San Antonio I point out the
Gunter Hotel and tell them I used to live there >I also have a hard time with the duality you present about the >internal and external Maharaji. I know, I have difficulty with this too. Is this something
that makes sense, that a life can be built on, or is it
just someone who wants to see things as they wish, instead
of how they are? I am still working on this. Sean
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When my family visits San Antonio I point out the Gunter Hotel and tell them I used to live there Wow, is the Gunther still there? (Was it Gunter or Gunther?) Is it still a hotel? Has it been remodeled? I remember walking on the street outside the Gunter and getting propositioned by prostitutes. As if I had any money. Are you in contact with any ex-collites? Do you know about Steve Droullard's website with all the pictures from COLL? John Gress and Halycion Manley have pictures linked to his site. Steve is married to Alisha (remember her, the Italian woman who had been married to Michael Clegg that crook who was once head of COLL?). Anyway, check it out if you haven't seen it. It will bring back a lot of memories. I know you are trying to work out the "internal Maharaji" thing, but let me just say how I finally figured out what my "experience" was. My experience as a premie mostly had to do with the fact that in a normal life good things happen, wonderful things sometimes, and what being a premie did was just give me something to attribute those experiences to. I attributed them to Maharaji. Like I said down below, bad or unhappy things were attributed to my mind or to some kind of "lesson" I had to learn so I could surrender either to Maharaji or "the experience," and Maharaji was guiding me through all that. So, what the cult was, for me, was just a cult of attribution. In reality, the "good" things I experienced were all due to me, to other people, the environment, or whatever and that has continued in my life, much happier than when I was a premie. Maharaji and knowledge had nothing to do with them, except to provide a context in which to experience them. So, there is NO internal Maharaji. There is just Maharaji who is a person, pretending, variously, to be God, the incarnation of God, the Perfect Master, or some other divine being who can give me peace and happiness. With respect to this, he is a con artist out for the money and worship, and he has done remarkably well for himself, I must say. I became a whole lot happier, freer and more fulfilled, when I dumped the Maharaji belief system, and it was only then that I saw not only what a crock it was, but how limiting it is, how it kept me stagnated and kept me from growing because I thought I had found "it" already. Plus, by the time I left I really, really hated being a premie, and I never actually cared for Maharaji very much anyhow. Never did, not that I didn't want to. Here is the COLL website: http://hometown.aol.com/smauriced/myhomepage/club.html
Related link: COLL Website
Modified by Joe at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 17:23:03
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Well, I don't get downtown much, but the last time I checked,
the Gunter was reworked on the outside, very nice looking
now.Thank you for that link. I had found Ira's photography
site, and Halcyon's site, but had missed Steve's and
John's. Those people look so young in the photos, Joe! Thank you again.
Sean
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Hi Sean, I remember when I first heard satsang about Prem Rawat back in 1972, I was told by others to keep an open mind, & then I found out that my mind was the enemy. And now after all these years ~ I hope you can do just that... Keep an open mind, because this time it really is about freedom. Best Thoughts to You... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 21:21:56
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Marianne,>Sean, in the posts you have made, you blame yourself for not
>being a good student. You assume Rawat's good will. Has Rawat
>ever done anything that made you uncomfortable? Yes. >Have people around him ever done things that made you
>uncomfortable? Oh yes, that is putting it mildly. >Has anything ever happened during your years of involvement
>that made you consider putting aside your involvement with
>Rawat? If so, what happened? Never. >Do you have a career? A stable life? A college degree? A
>retirement plan? Yes to all. My physical concerns in life have been easy
to the point of absurdity. I can't justify this or explain
it. It's not grace, I think it was just being in the right
place at more or less the right time. I will give some
credit to my wife, who I love, but who can be an absolute
baddass when it comes to managing the money, career, family,
etc. >How does your family view your involvement with Rawat after
>all these years? I don't talk to them about this, other than in a general,
"meditation is good, finding a teacher is good" kind of way.
I will try to address this in my response to Ocker. Sean
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You sound like a lucky guy. A surprising number of people are, despite unpromising starts, or maybe because of them depending on your pov. I guess it comes down to having realistic expectations as well as being in the right place etc, as you say.
A great many people gave their youth to this man. The detail of how this happened, the long term effects, what it means to the bigger question of whether or not 'our' generation was a waste of space, & many other things, is something the exploration of which, has only become possible since the internet.
As you say below, this is the only place where these things can be talked about, because almost everyone who posts here has been a premie.
Now we have the Lord of the Universe, as was, using legal instruments designed (badly) to prevent the exploitation of intellectual copyright by unscrupulous Chinese manufacturers, to close down legitimate comment.
On top of that we have outrageous & unwarranted attacks on individuals, carried out by persons unknown, but obviously committed followers, to smear the reputations of the more eloquent & non-anonymous who dare to talk about Rawat, his worldwide organisations, & his impact on themselves & others.
The personal benefit which you got from being a part of this, & I don't deny you did, surely must be put into some sort of perspective.
You owe it to yourself to make an attempt to understand, which I'm sure you're doing actually, otherwise why would you bother to post.
And yes, meditation is certainly better than doing smack or whatever it was you felt in need to be rescued from all those years ago, but that's only a small part of the story.
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>A great many people gave their youth to this man. The detail
>of how this happened, the long term effects, what it means to
>the bigger question of whether or not 'our' generation was a
>waste of space, & many other things, is something the
>exploration of which, has only become possible since the
>internet.I refuse to believe that any premie who felt devotion,
who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to
them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted
or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness.
I think among all the people alive today you were and are
the lucky ones. I wish that I had been able to do 1/10
of what most of you did. I don't say this in order to sugarcoat how you feel today,
or losses of family communication because of being in
a premie mindset, etc. I don't mean it that way.
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Hi there Sean: your post:
"I refuse to believe that any premie who felt devotion,
who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to
them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted
or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness"
At first I saw that this invoked the response position of one who has been bitten by belief, not just in Maharaj ji but in god and several religion's ideas about knowing or relating to the idea of god.
There is a sense in which I feel uncomfortable with a perspective that seems to say: giving years of devotion, wealth, family life, and mental health for a cause one thought was worthy is not wasted even if the cause itself proved subsequently to be unworthy.
Which is my position re: all religions; because all religions hinge and depend upon beliefs, and the absorption of them on many levels of the mind, before you can count yourself a member.
But there is a truism in an interpretation as it pertains to personality: as if to say:
Having spent many years trying to evolve by doing selfless deeds for a "worthy" cause, brings a reward in terms of self improvement, even if the cause was proved false.
This is an unintended but happy result, I must admit; referring to the many people who have shared extremely well developed understanding of the problem they have encountered and how to deal with it and escape. In case that is a blank space in your sky: I refer to the problem of having been psychologically captured and made into a resource, with only mental pretzels as a reward.
However, that some people had some good final outcomes proves no good thing nor offers any justification.
Survivors of the holocaust or WWII might have turned out to have gained, among their scars, some strength of personality or humanitarian insight.
But that does not justify the events leading up to those times in history.
I have been stagnant for decades, posting here has enlivened my desire, even ability to write, has stimulated my mind into honest introspection, has made me feel not alone for the first time in 30 years, has made me laugh more than I ever have, even as a school boy listening to the goon show!
And has winkled out my self image from the shell of concepts about something we have absolutely no evidence for anywhere, no matter how far we look: the unquestionable, unchallengable, ideas around god. This is fundamentally because beliefs fade and the only way they can be built up again is to get someone else to believe it with you. Fear of losing belief causes believers to go heavily on the defensive, more than they might if their property, say, were threatened. They are terrified of losing their beliefs.
I see one thing I do not understand. People. They are more subtle than the rest of the physical universe and I don't know how or why, but I am one. And it is arrogance for anyone of us on this planet to suddenly turn to the others and say that he knows the answer to what it all is. Especially when his answer is that it is all him!
WE wasted nothing! So those years of our life were worthless anyway?
"who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to
them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted
or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness"
Or are we so richly compensated with personality improvements, once we've exed that it made it worth ruining the best years of our life for.
Or do you say these words, swopping to a priest's hat at the end?
"Great shall be your reward in heaven, my son".
Or a nihilist's scarf? "It is all illusion anyway brother"
A once Lost Premie
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 07:05:03
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...and loads of food for thought. I love this from Sean "I refuse to believe that any premie who felt devotion, who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness" and your analysis LP which was really clearly put and I was able to understand ! I feel that I advanced light years in my understanding and maturity/evolution/openness by doing my version of satsang,service and meditation and it's quite a relief to hear Sean say that all that time wasn't wasted.......however I can't compare it with how I would have been otherwise.I was influenced by my religious upbringing before "knowledge" and gurus and, encouraged by Rawat,DLM and certain premies ,with the constant references to Jesus and the Bible,I simply stuck one religion on top of another.Frankly I loved the whole "devotion" thing.There is a powerful experience in that,but I don't think it has anything to do with Rawat. Now I don't think the religion or trappings a person chooses matters ( as long as it's based around truthfulness,respect and caring ) but I think there is a feeling which I could call "devotion" in selflessness and humility.
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I love this from Sean "I refuse to believe that any premie who felt devotion, who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness" Yes, what a lovely sentiment, I'm sure. Too bad it flies in the face of reality. The trapping and diverting of one's life following a false leader is as clear a waste of life as possible. It's being tricked, played, exploited and robbed. One can, in fact, should be wiser for the experience. But let's not fool ourselves, that's just a natural consolation prize. I'm sure war vets might be really happy they met wonderful people in the hospital and learned a lot about overcoming adversity. That doesn't mean it was okay, let alone a good thing, to get wounded.
Modified by Jim at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 13:20:32
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Willing and able to fight is one thing...... wanting to do so is a whole different ballgame.... for the very reason you noted. Being wounded sucks, by the way! (In case anyone was wondering). There is no upside to being wounded, other than the fact that it didn't cause death. That would be about the only real high spot.
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Unless Jim is asking where you are and you are responding with "here, here."
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I love it when you guys get along! Lol! I would repost some of Jim's greatest posts that I have saved and there are so many of them trust me, but then again he is an attorney. OK, you can call me a chicken shit! Hilldrops
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Don't worry, Hilltop. I have it on the best authority that Jim gets his skin sanded regularly (as all good barristers do from time to time), so it's nice and thick - he can take it. G'wan, I dare you.
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Well OK then Premie Ex, I guess I asked for it? Right? It really is not that easy to pick my favorite Jim post (Cynthia still has him beat BTW LOL) but I did take a quick look. This could turn into a full time job. Thank You for your dare. I think! Ok, here's a short post by Jim that I liked. The longer posts by Jim are the Best Ones but I want to keep it short and sweet here and test the waters with my big toe. Now, I double dare you to tell me something? about you! Hilltoe
Modified by Hilltop at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 00:16:34
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Another quicky for you and they only get better. It would take some time to find Jim's best posts! Hilltop
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Okay, Hilltop. Definitely, DEFINITELY, bound for hell.
I read about m in the 70s, but thought his attraction must have more to do with copious amounts of Orange Sunshine than anything else... after all, I myself was doing multiple hits and seeing god in every rock and tree, so who needed m, tra la la. Besides, I was living in the hinterlands of northern BC, where everyone knew that gurus wore sheets and mainly needed to be taken out behind the weighscales and beaten up.
I grew up and moved away from Dogpatch, running into premies every now and again but pretty much ignoring them, until I met the big love of my life, The Greatest Guy in the World... except for his one tiny personality flaw. He was a premie. Shit, I thought, when he told me, but I went for him anyway. After all, all he did was go to videos every now and again, and that stupid photo was only a piece of paper after all, right? Eyes wide shut, moi.
He was such a sweet man at first that I even began to think maybe there was something in his beliefs, and I went to a few videos. Three, actually. They were unbelievable pap, and the premie hosts were replicas of the greeters at my parent's church. I tried to learn about m from my lover and his friends, but all I got was an impression of sunday school Christianity tricked out in Hindu-lite mythology. I got an undercurrent that there was much more, but was of course excluded from the secret stuff (these jewels of spirituality would be mine once I got k, of course, but until then I must be firmly shut away from the big people's conversation). Fine, I thought. Go run away to the treehouse and practice secret handshakes... I still loved my partner, but I was right bored with his religion. Soon, we just stopped talking about it.
Then there were whispers. Treachery! Base and vile exes are spreading terrible lies! Jim was the Antichrist-du-jour at the time and I started becoming a closet fan as I learned to use the internet and began to learn about Jagdeo, the gold toilet, the... but when I tried to talk to my partner and his premie friends about it they would snap shut.
The ensuing years were not a really fun time. I think that my ex was always a very angry person, but he desperately needed to pretend to himself that he was living in rainbow bliss - it was always agonizingly plain to see, but it got weird. He and his friends were vicious about Jim and the exes, and I was increasingly included in the attacks, though I quickly learned that defending Jim was a bad idea. I wussed out. Most of the time I just said nothing and buried it, even though I knew I was just bending over to "keep the peace". We turned into Spy v Spy, always sneaking around trying to blow each other up. We projected. I dripped poison in my partner's ear at every opportunity. My partner objectified me and lectured; if I gave an opinion I was told, no, here's what you really think. There was more and worse, but all on the general theme of being systematically dehumanized, which you already all know all about anyway, so I won't bore you with details. To escape the mindfuck I stopped saying anything, ever, but I lurked here and learned, and learned that I was never, ever going to be valued in any way by this man I had loved, but no longer did. I asked him to move out and that was the end.
I can't tell you yet how much your hours of archiving have helped me learn the truth, despite the smoke that's been systematically blown into my eyes. I can't express yet how much the generous spirits of Susan and Premie-Spouse have tempered my contempt for my ex and made me think that something good might even be salvaged from the rubble, if I can keep open enough to be a real friend. And there's Jim, who can tell turds from chocolate bars no matter how often the lard told him they were yummy - I benefit greatly from his focus. I could go on for a long time about John and all the others who give time and love to help people escape, but I don't want to sound as if I was giving an Oscars speech. But it's like that.
So, that's probably much more than you wanted to know about me, but I thought you might like to know why a never-bitten virgin would want to hang around here so much. I just wish my ex had looked as well. Thank you for your posts - they are very much appreciated. Good night, and I look forward to lots more. px
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What a beautiful piece of writing, thank you for that.
I sometimes think I should sit with a box of tissues when I read on this site Not because what is said is necessarily sad, just because they're often so well written, like good books, they touch-the-heart!
Alice
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Thank you for your story premie - ex, there are many aspects that I find similar, except we were both premies.
Several people might take knowledge on the same day, but they rarely come to the same conclusion at the same time.
I had it several years before my ex partner, so perhaps I became disillusioned sooner. For a while it was quite as you describe.
I am grateful for your presence on the forum.
Lp
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Hello PX. Let me say, first, how much I enjoyed reading your post, though it truly brought tears to my eyes. As I was reading it, I was thinking, "Did I write this and post it under a different name?" It means more to me than I can ever tell you to read of what you went through with the cult. I'm sure some of that was hard to write, but thank you.
So many things your wrote of resonate deeply. I think, most especially that you stopped talking to avoid the mindfuck. When I read that, I thought, "Crap, it's not just me." It doesn't matter what I try to say about rawat...it's always wrong. Easier to give up...maybe.
Every day, I drag myself through the "stay-or-leave" trauma. A few years ago, I did that infrequently, once every several months. Now, it is almost constant. It's wearing on me, it's destroying our relationship and our marriage, and it's not changing anything with my husband's addiction to rawat. As I've said so very many times, now what?
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WOW!!! Thank You Premie Ex, ...For your very excellent and wonderful, yet sad post. I'm a man of few words these days, but what you said here is heart filled and heart felt, for me. This post really belongs up top as the beginning of a new thread. And it is truely words like yours that keeps me posting.That's a fact! This has got to be one of the best posts I've ever read! Wish I knew how to say more... Very Sincerely, Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Sat, Jul 08, 2006, 01:49:58
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What oh what makes you say that people are more subtle than the rest of the 'physical universe'??...??...?
For a start that's quite a statement to make and would to my mind presuppose an extraordinary, even Olympian dare I say, knowledge of said universe.
And then, at least for this little black duck, it does not accord with my experience. Right back to one of my first memories of looking at the petals of a daisy and noticing how delicately they shade from white to a pink tip, each one, so precisely that there is a pink frill around the edge of the flower.
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I meant in the sense that to the limit of our knowledge we are the only objects capable of thought, devotion, philosophy,
rebuttal ..etc..
I didn't make that very clear. Subtle .. wrong word .. thanks.
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 15:09:45
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Leslie, what makes you think they aren't? What YOU said seems to indicate an overwhelmingly intimate knowledge of humans, how they work and what they consist of, specifically."...And then, at least for this little black duck, it does not accord with my experience...." Anecdotal evidence is just about useless, by the way. Seriously, though, the term "subtle" is pretty vacuous if you are trying to actually assign a hard "value" to it. So, LP didn't necesarily pick the right word in this context...... but still, humans are pretty subtle. The physical processes that cause this body to run properly are very subtle, indeed! Much more complex and "subtle" than "petals of a daisy and ..... how delicately they shade from white to a pink tip, each one, so precisely that there is a pink frill around the edge of the flower...." Right?
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What makes the workings of a human body any more subtle than that of oh I don't know a stick insect? or a spider or a giraffe or a monkey or a lion or a whale or a ..... need i go on?
Goodness, what about a bat? or a chameleon or a lyre bird
Then there's termites, sloths anteaters time to go
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Lesley I think you're just looking for something to argue about.
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Not really lp, I am very serious about this. I fail to understand why people are so sure we're better than other animals.
Perhaps it makes it easier to exploit them, or is that a cheap shot?
More subtle? What about those black hairy tailed scorpions that lure littler scorpions to their lair by mimicking the chemistry of a little lady scorpion?
Can do? I don't think so, we simply don't have that sort of subtle control of our chemistry do we.
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I have already admitted that subtle was the wrong word and do not consider myself or human beings superior to creatures, not that subtle implies, superior.
I meant our intellectual capacities. Which might mean superior brains but I' m not proud of it.
What I value in human beings is their loyalty, their satisfaction with sufficient, their ingenuity and their tireless devotion to their families, and in these I would place, the furry, winged and even the scaley ones above human beings, in quite a substantial proportion of our race.
The word subtle was misplaced.
If I may revise the context
I was referring (with Sean) to the belief in god and saying, I thought that the only thing that resembles these concepts, especially when you speak of god in human form, is human consciousness in the sense that it has many of the developed layers of subtle experience, that is the experience of becoming aware that I exist and to philosophise on the subject and to classify information that is about our consciousness as distinct from that which is coming from the outside; from the green, and the furry ones, and the flying ones etc. etc..
And it (the human being) is where all the concepts were hatched and all the devotion came from and went to; so why not just be content to be a man or woman on earth not knowing one way or the other but just appreciating it all for what it is and if you feel like debating, debate, but why fix or try to push the idea of believing in god?
Why not devote yourself to human beings, generally and to all life naturally. Why just one?
Can we drop the subtle rebuttal thing now?
Lp
Modified by LP at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 08:37:42
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That was a lovely post and I think I agree with it all. Apologies if I was a bit off hand yesterday, it's this broadband thingy, encourages me to drop in for a few minutes should I pass by my computer, which does not make for considered posting. Lesley
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The follow-on question would then be, "Better for what?" or maybe "Better at what?" If you are talking intelligence and the capability to make tools, then humans have it all over all other lifeforms on this planet. That isn't a "wish," it's a fact. If you are talking who or what is the fastest runner, then we lose that one and are thus not as well equipped. But, again, we can make tools (cars, for instance) that mitigate that limitations and yes, once again, we are the fastest things on the planet. If you are talking about the complexity of the lifeform, then once again, humans have it all over every other known species. Complexity would, by necessity, include everything that makes a species a species. "Better" isn't in the equation nor is it in my lexicon when we are talking about this. We are "better suited" for some environments and challenges than any other species on this planet. We are not as well suited for others. However, our complex brain allows us to live in environments that we normally could not by making the proper tools to do so...... NO other species of which I am aware can do that. Chimps, as close to us as they are, cannot build scuba equipment to live underwater nor can they build space shuttles to permit living/moving in space. THAT does, in fact, make us pretty special and unique...... Better? Depends upon the question.
Modified by NAR at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 15:33:35
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Yeah, my slip was showing there with the word better. And yes we certainly do dominate in the world of animals. And I'll happily admit I'm glad we do, obviously who wants to swop places with a pig or a panda, plus I don't think we're the baddest animal on the paddock by a long shot. Perhaps I want us to be a little more gracious in victory.
Ants seem to be doing quite well, even with us around. I think they probably outnumber us and are still multiplying and gaining territory.
I find it interesting to think that insects have been around making a living off the vegetation for far longer than we have.
And I do wonder if our species hasn't just been lucky, like the eucalypts in australia, took advantage of a break in the canopy as it were.
I'm not so sure we're the most intelligent. These days you get an EQ test as well as an IQ test. Maybe the ancestors of that three toed sloth from south america decided it was more sensible to take a nap than invade Poland.
But yes I do agree with what you're saying, our abilities are both diverse and impressive.
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I like them...... they have the right idea...... "What, me worry?" If they could operate a trout fishing rod, they would be perfect Now..... if someone had made the statement, "WE are the most important species"..... now there, we (you and I) would have been in total agreement that we certainly are not the most important. Quite frankly, since we are basically at the very top of the food chain, we are likley the very least important species on the planet. The most important would be the simplest lifeforms, since without them we couldn't exist nor could anything more complex than they. So, I do know where you were coming from and was just being oppositional...... which, as everyone knows, is my way. In terms of relative importance, which I think is a much easier to define property than "subtle" or "better," I think you are quite right..... we are certainly NOT anymore important than other species here. That is a good enough reason to respect the others and treat them properly...... even if we do consider them to be food..... ESPECIALLY if we consider them to be food
Yes, yes..... I am one of those meat-eaters...... and PROUD of it.
Modified by NAR at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 17:02:46
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>At first I saw that this invoked the response position of one
>who has been bitten by belief, not just in Maharaj ji but in
>god and several religion's ideas about knowing or relating to
>the idea of god.Yes, my posts are all in the context of a person who
believes in God. I believe that everything we experience
as real is an act of God and of grace. Not so much
into religions though. >However, that some people had some good final outcomes
>proves no good thing nor offers any justification. Agreed, a few happy outcomes are not sufficient to
be a justification. I think these things are good in
and of themselves. I do. Last night when I made that post I thought it was one
of the truest things I have ever been able to say. I
still feel that now. But I will admit that the instant
I woke up this morning I thought to myself that there
would be hell to pay for having said it.
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Hi Sean, I'm glad to see your posts up here today, it went quiet for a while, but then I remembered, we still have to sleep. (note to self) 
First let me apologise for my obtuse wording. Trying to be polite and unintimidating, I just got vague.
"At first I saw that this invoked the response position of one
>who has been bitten by belief, not just in Maharaj ji but in
>god and several religion's ideas about knowing or relating to
>the idea of god."
This is supposed to be referring to me. (sorry) I meant.
I first noticed that my immediate response was that of a person, as it were, once bitten twice shy. Except that I have also been bitten by several other religions as well,... and still recovering, I am not abandoning the possibility of god in any way. I am extremely interested in fact in the whole subject, not desiring to lay anything to rest, but to know all there is to know. I value the input of all walks of science and philosophy to answer my burning questions.
And most valued of all I treasure my own perception, my own consciousness, as it is, and my own realizations, and these, unless I wish to share them; are either my own or between God and myself..(whichever way it proves to turn out if we ever will know).
If I do not know the answer, then I cannot dismiss possibilities. Sometimes, in the many times a day the magnificence of the universe or nature takes my breath away, I might not say the usual "Wow", sometimes, I hear my body, almost as if by instinct whisper: "Thankyou God"
I smile at the little not so furry earth creature, which feels comfortable at times of awe to feel as if Dad were still alive or that there is a chief cat, an ever present Dad, who knows what we all know as if the tribe were a single colony, as if it were one.
I smile inwardly. I can't say, in my thoughts and intellect I have found anything to prove or to contradict it, but I see no proof worthy of gambling your life and 'all you once held dear' on it.
I smile and keep it to myself, noting it, in case it ever comes in useful, and, to me it has.
The point which, I am now wandering onto, (all points are the same, if you are a true truth seeker,) is that the inner side of my relationship with my life and the world and the universe or any overarching conscious Entity, whether existing or not, is private and:
How I relate to the varying layers of my experience, the physical, the mental, the experiential, the seen, the heard, the felt and tasted, (Are you following me?) is also private!
Whether I think I'm experiencing my body, life, nature, the planet, the universe, or some overarching subtle essence of these which represents in some, as yet unknown way, the knowing, creative principle of universal phenomena: as it would be, purely hypothetically; or not, is my own affair. (Until I try to lay my half baked idea on someone else. Then it becomes the world's problem).
(And, of course, if it were possible to separate the intelligent nature of logic from the energetic nature of matter. No one has shown me how to do this so far. Any one who knows, please enlighten me.)
So, I am nervous about something so obviously coming from the purely hypothetical position that there could be a singular grouping of the consciousnesses of all living things into a central intelligence agency. A central source of consciousness and life.
I am nervous of one who thinks: that by forcing the issue by will, making first oneself, and then by inferred guilt or actual promise of fictitious reward, others; believe that there is a god; it might push the argument a little past the 50% mark.
Where, until there is proof either way, for or against, is fairly and squarely where I intend to stand; (not where I find myself, where I choose to stand), on the fence. (It helps if you were a dancer or a tight rope walk walker in your youth.)
Sorry, long winded again!
Lp
ps re:
"Last night when I made that post I thought it was one of the truest things I have ever been able to say. I still feel that now. But I will admit that the instant I woke up this morning I thought to myself that there would be hell to pay for having said it."
Please don't feel we are making you pay hell for it.
It was clothed in complimentary sentiments, but presupposed a sort of saintliness in early premies.
We were duped, we thought we were going to get an experience of god.
Now, what we do has far more humanitarian motivation and 'selfless service' to it.
Then we were clamouring for attention from the "purveyor of salvation" for our own 'spiritual' gain.
Another drip, maharaji makes us more selfish.
Drip = something that could have been a reason to leave.
Modified by LP at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 07:04:52
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I refuse to believe that any premie who felt devotion, who gave of their wealth because it meant nothing to them, who spent years of their life in service, wasted or lost anything if it was done in a spirit of selflessness. I think among all the people alive today you were and are the lucky ones. I wish that I had been able to do 1/10 of what most of you did. That's an interesting response. We're talking about a personality cult here, Sean, and the behavior of a con-man and his family, and all that that means to all of us because we've been involved. Maharaji's goal in life has been to enrich himself off of the backs of his devotees. He probably is deluded enough to think he deserves all the things he's acquired over the years, but in truth, he doesn't (and didn't). Whatever he got, he didn't deserve and he has been deceptive while getting all the things he has received. The fact of life is this: Around Prem Rawat, what he wants is what he gets, no matter how much of a sacrifice everyone else makes. He's extremely demanding, and he doesn't mind taking money out of everyone else's pockets, regardless if they are rich or if they are poor. He'll take any money. You make it sound like: "Ah, I didn't waste my inheritence, my family's money...I didn't give up getting an education and choosing a career, I didn't give up having children and a family, and having friends and living in the world...and because I had devotion to Prem Rawat it was worth it????" Gimme a break! The fact is that money, inheritances and special donations (all that big money for jets, yachts, palaces, etc.) was solicited by exploiting people's devotion to Maharaji, it was not always freely given. You've got it quite backwards. And what about the DECA premies who "gave up" their health and well-being out of devotion? How about all that love from Rawat, who denied safety equipment to cut costs that caused many premies to get sick and/or collapse in exhaustion from over-work, without even so much as a thank you or a get well card from Rawat, or, (this would have been be novel) health care to get better. Oh, that devotion made it worth it!!! lol Also, the problem with your responses is that there are just too many of these "mistakes," "errors of judgment," and "closing of ranks," by Prem Rawat over all these years to be excused by writing it all off to youthful devotion or belonging to a religion, as if there was a cause worth the personal investments. Some people here gave up 30 years of their life! And Rawat got all the money, Sean. He doesn't share. There is no benefit to me and ex-premies other than looking back and figuring it all out, which, thank you very much, I would have been better off in life if I had never become a premie at all and had never met Rawat. Don't blow smoke up my behind because I was a devoted premie. That doesn't wash.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 05:32:45
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Spot on Cynthia!
I learned what I learned when I was a premie despite being a premie. Travelling to programs was probably far more beneficial than being at programs ( hitching 000's of miles, not getting on a plane ).
You might learn something from being mugged - not to go to that area again perhaps, how better to recognise an approaching mugger - but who would describe it as beneficial? No-one wants to be mugged. What Rawat did to us was a little more subtle than the usual mugging, but boy, it wasn't good!
Sean still has a notion that there is something of the teacher in Rawat, and looks for positive outcomes. Rawat is nothing but a con ( I could teach meditation better than that! ), and I too am confident that I would have been better off never having come across the jerk.
Modified by 13 at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 05:51:55
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says more clearly what I was trying to say. Cynthia and 13 have put the matter in a nutshell.
The flaw in maharaji's teachings is so major as to render his words meaningless and his "spiritual power, grace, holiness"... etc... non existant, irrelevant and a waste of time trying to please, or appease.
Thanks to you both for your clear vision.
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 06:53:09
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You guys all said what I said too. Sometimes it pays to read through a thread first before replying to someone. Not that I'd ever know that, of course.
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Besides the war vet analogy was very clear.
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Well at least you said it in one paragraph. As usual, I went on and on and on... Hey, say hi to Laurie for me. Give her a hug for me, too, you lucky man.
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Is that how it happened? Only after Rawat told them nothing was real but Guru Maharaj Ji and nothing mattered. Only after we were scolded for being attached to our families and our belongings. Want to hear what I gave in my first darshan line? I had nothing of value. I was 13. I did have a Mexican Silver Charm bracelet my godmother had given me. I broke my mother's heart when she heard I had thrown it into the darshan loot. What about the mothers and fathers who saved to put their children through college and saw those funds given to the Guru? What about the children, like A, who watched their mothers sew doll clothes for the guru's children? What about a generation of kids whose parents gave what might have been their vacations, better education, college education, small comforts.....all so the Guru could have the best that money could buy? And then brag about how the premies don't know how hard it is to be rich? Prem Rawat is a worthless piece of crap.
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......it was Rawat who insisted that nothing was real.....and all wealth should be given to the lotus feet of love.In return we would experience detachment and realise the nollidge Of course it all echoed what many of us had been indoctrinated with since we were children...the New Testament of the bible with the story about the rich man ,the camel and the needle's eye and the Sermon on the Mount " Blessed are the poor"......etc Everything I owned was taken from me by the crazy premie who lured me into the cult and insisted I give up my place at university. There must have been hundreds like me. Still , it's nice to imagine some good must have come of it all.
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The more something meant to us, the more it meant we should surrender it to the lotus feet, because then we would be free from the "attachment," get more of Maharaji's grace, and be more able to surrender our lives.
See, I can still give satsang, yech. Those anecdotal stories about how we tried to surrender are very valuable, and also very sad. Thanks.
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Hi Susan, Great Post! I'm posting this attachment because Prem Rawat once said this about relationships and family... This attachment is from The Living Master book. DLM 1978. From Chapter V : Devotion - Page 66 is from Prem Rawat's talk in Miami Beach, Florida; March 19, 1977 and Page 67 is from Prem Rawat's talk in Seattle, Washington; February 12, 1977.
Modified by Hilltop at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 23:02:49
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