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Hey Andries,
All Indian gurus know things that they cannot know. For that matter all successful gurus "know things that they cannot know". Most Indian gurus do miracles, yes, up to and including resurrection of the dead. It's no big deal. I don't have a non-magical explanation for every little unsolved "miracle" though human credulity is almost as infinite as Guru Maharaj Ji's Knowledge. As these miracles of knowing and doing are never performed in such a way as to be able to be validated through repetition (except by professional magicians) I ignore them. Just remember this is the very same guru who has many of his miracles on video tape showing his sleight of hand. What you think he can perform real miracles but does cheap magic tricks as well?
Modified by Ocker at Sun, Jul 02, 2006, 15:33:22
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You fell asleep in maharaji's satsang! It just dawned on me: there was a missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle. I have never, to the knowledge of my conscious mind, let down my rational approach to learning, I was not the type to be bowled over by a load of concepts.
At no point in memory do I remember actually crossing over, totally into premiehood, without my rational, questioning mind.
Perhaps the hypnosis took effect, deeply locked in to my subconscious mind, during the moments that I slept, maharaji just had to keep saying the same thing over and over again.
Just one of those poisonous, mind vegetating sentences slipped under the conscious mind like a cinema ticket, could be enough to set off a recognition when we next hear it in our conscious mind. We get a sense of precognition similar to deja vu, but interpret it as a gut feeling that this is true!
If we attend enough of these, eventually, we nod off, just for seconds, same with DVD's. Just a few seconds might be enough if all the words are the same, and I can assure you they are! Perhaps a small amount of this, hypnotically implanted, might make all the other stuff sound as if it made sense suddenly.
As for you Andries, you are more qualified to post here now.
Please let me know if you notice anything subliminal, especially dreams relating to m, if you feel like it I mean, perhaps.
Lp (watching closely for signs of mind warp.) 
Modified by LP at Sun, Jul 02, 2006, 15:59:02
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Modified by Andries at Sun, Jul 02, 2006, 16:29:01
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Anything earth shattering?
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He talked about credibility (I would call this epistemology) and that it depended on the source whether you should believe something or not. (I was interested in this subject so that is why I still remember it) He also said that the ocean is in the drop. (For somebody like myself who was for years immersed in Hinduism, it is clear that the underlying world view is still Advaita Vedanta.) Andries
Modified by Andries at Sun, Jul 02, 2006, 16:48:25
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I haven't studied Vedanta for a long time now but as Rawat is considered the Godhead incarnnate and premies do not experience any freeing of the soul through meditation or having any intellectual grounding in Indian philosophy but merely a devotion to the person of Rawat, is it really Advaita Vedanta?
I can't remember the names of the different schools anymore but isn't this just a debased form of Bhakti Yoga?
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Did he say anything? Forget earth shattering. Anything remotely resembling interesting would be a change.
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5 -10 minutes! That's more than enough!
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 03, 2006, 01:38:14
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It's funny - many of us bust a gut to get to a program many a time. Sometimes it was a huge effort to get the money together ( you were unemployed, quitting the previous job to go to the previous program, and then had to find a new job ), and then there was the travel, and the struggle of finding the most basic accommodation ( you had just spent all the money you had earned from the new job getting there ). And finally you get to the hall, some seat way back there, and then fall asleep soon after M starts his talk. I know I once pretty much slept through a whole thing. An expensive way to get a bit of shut-eye!
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But possibly an easy way to get subliminally reprogrammed.
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 03, 2006, 01:48:29
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'
But possibly an easy way to get subliminally reprogrammed.'
Quite possibly. Thing was, I wasn't necessarily that tired. And I had sat through all the intro, quite awake, waiting. Finally he comes on stage, and a few minutes in and I am asleep.
'13...13... this is your satguru... you are getting sleeepy...relax...let your mind go.... '
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The more I think about it, the more it seems more than a possibility. There are self learning tapes: languages etc., you listen to in sleep. How many premies actually might deliberately aim for this. Playing tapes and DVD's at home and falling asleep, while listening.
I can still hear his proclaiming voice, I can't hear what it is saying any more, but I can still hear the shrill emphatic tone, how it rises and falls, waits for the echo in the hall.
Modified by LP at Mon, Jul 03, 2006, 02:12:08
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"........I can still hear his proclaiming voice, I can't hear what it is saying any more, but I can still hear the shrill emphatic tone, how it rises and falls, waits for the echo in the hall." and don't forget the repetition Lp...he often repeats phrases two or three times with varying speeds ,stress and intonation each time. I found a "Stop Smoking" hypnosis tape amongst my mum's possessions after she died and decided to try it.You had to listen to it at least once fully conscious, but after that you could just fall asleep listening to it, which I did religiously for about a month.The other side of the tape was slow classical music ( a repetitive Bach-style piece ) with subliminal ,hypnotic, stop-smoking spiel, which you couldn't hear, behind the music .Anyhow the tape worked and I no longer smoke.The hypnotist had a Canadian accent and a very nice voice and I wonder if it was Jim 
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Yes, Lexy, now you mention it, I've come across a few applications of this, and it does appear to work.
Once I came across an article in an old Guitar Player magazine. It related an experiment some one had tried, of making your own tape, telling yourself to relax, from the feet up, etc, and to let yourself fall asleep, then, several times, one makes the suggestion that when one gets up one will pick up the guitar and play it better than before, or say, in the style of ______________ .
I tried it, 20 years ago and it seemed to work, and I 've been playing ______________'s songs ever since. I'd better make another tape and tell myself to play something else.
Timothy Leary, Richard Alpert and Ralph Metzner, made an album to go with the book The Psychedelic Experience, which one was suggested to listen to, relaxing, before hand and beginning. It also induced an experience by itself. I had good, deep, sleep even if I fell asleep listening to it..
I see no reason why this sort of subconscious suggestion would not apply to m's satsang.
It's not a new phenomemon, when people travelled miles on foot, they would be even more exhausted, and in India, people sleep in the satsang field. Devotional songs are played and sung continuously throughout the night.
Everybody must have had the experience of listening to satsang in their sleep. I sometimes still heard the words, they echoed for a while in my head.
And sometimes we were told that it still worked, even when you fell asleep. Sometimes I have experienced doing meditation while also, to all intents and purposes, my body was asleep in the lotus position.
Perhaps the final way to set oneself free from the subliminal, subconscious level, programming is to use self hypnosis tapes telling onself the truth of maharaj ji as one knows it now.
Fall asleep listening to your own voice giving yourself ex premie satsang. Explaining away irrational, unfounded fears, or illogical, impossible concepts and beliefs.
Just a thought, will experiment and ponder further:
Best wishes Lexy,
Lp
Modified by LP at Wed, Jul 05, 2006, 08:32:13
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Just remembered; it was a common practice to meditate, while listening to satsang at times.
We tried to trip into different states of mind or being, while soaking up his tripe.
Modified by LP at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 08:58:26
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Andries, You don't even need the Keys. If you ask Mike Finch humbly maybe he will reveal Knowledge to you right online. If Mike's unavailable, there are others, too. The question is though, will you cut off your right arm or your head for Knowledge? How many people were there, Andries? Cynthia
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About how many people, what sort of security, did anyone talk to you? What was the age range of attendees? Did anyone else talk first? Music?
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- About how many people, about 500-800
- what sort of security, metal detector, but very lenient, only my rucksack was checked not my pockets
- did anyone talk to you? I talked to several people, including a skeptical and somewhat hostile premie spouse, who shared some of the same concerns as I, i.e. what happens with the donations and why do we get no information even when we ask for it. I told her a little of what I know, but I refrained from telling her information that would probably have shocked her, such as the fact that he used to be called Lord of the Universe. (I do not want to digress on her background as this may lead to identification.)
- What was the age range of attendees? I think average 40, but it was quite mixed. In the SSB movement there are more people from Hindu Hindoestan (Dutch speaking people from Suriname from Indian extraction, not necessarily Hindu) background. I do not remember ever to have been on a SSB meeting in the Netherlands that a. was in such a posh environment and b. where there were so many non-Dutch. The difference is of course that SSB never went abroad.
- Did anyone else talk first? A woman called Teun Haan if I remember the name well. She received knowledge in the early 1970s.
Music? There was only background music and I do not really remember what kind of music
Andries
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I can see why you fell asleep, Andries, if this is how he's introducing Knowledge: Rawat at the Hague: Maybe what I know is - don’t push that switch, push this switch. If somebody says – “No, no you push this switch.” My first question is going to be – “Who told you?” If you said – "This came from the senior test pilot." I would accept it. Ok. Credibility. Everybody wants to be credible. To find credibility, we look for what is credible. Who said that? Was it a long time ago? Who was this book written by? To us, this is credible. But if we consider for a moment – that what you know to be true, not from hearing, but from feeling – from feeling. That is credible. If somebody says - "Did you sleep well?" You know. Knowing. Knowing needs no justification. So the question now is – what do you know? Not what you’ve heard. Not what you’ve read. What do you know? When I travel, I have to stay in hotels quite a bit. First thing I do when I go into the room – I sit on the bed. The hotel may have brochures. They may say – “Oh but this is a really good hotel.” I don’t care. I sit, and feel it. Is it comfortable? I don’t sit there for enlightenment. No. Two seconds, I sit and I know. I know. What do you know about your life? About your existence? This is not an easy task. Try to separate what you know from what you have heard. Is this something I know? I believe? Who told me this? What are you looking for? You don’t know me. You weren’t looking for me. But you are looking at me. Looking. Searching.
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I just read some of the above from Rawat. It is unbelievably uninformed, gratuitious, sophistic bollox of the highest order. I must go and lie down. What kind of a mental filter would you need to listen to that stuff. Stunned again, Bryn
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We'd probably need to be hanging on every word, waiting for some hidden message that refers to our own preconceptions and expectations of him. Then he just fills in the blanks in our prescriptions.
"A bit of this, a bit of that, some of those, there that should keep you going for another few months."
Lp
Modified by LP at Thu, Jul 06, 2006, 12:25:21
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congratulations on attending your first Rawat programme. Yes I have fallen asleep at least once while he was speaking....just for a few minutes ( I think....but I suppose it could have been 40 years) before I juddered back to wakefulness.I had probably travelled for miles,queued up for hours,been searched, interviewed ,desperately tried to find my seat,argued with the ushers ( premie "volunteers" )and then listened to that soporific, tinkly bell version of "Arti" and "Focus on the form of Guru Maharaji" for ages before the Lord of the Universe finally arrived on stage....so no surprise that I was exhausted.I probably was subliminally and eternally hypnotised and thought controlled just in those few minutes; so I'm sorry to say Andries but there isn't much hope for you There is the possibility that,as you had already received whatever it was that you got from Satya Sai Baba, that you have a certain immunity form other strains of the guru disease? Anyhow, if you find yourself helplessly responding to email shots gently suggesting that you pay $25 per month to receive 2 DVDs of his lordship you will know that you are responding to the thirst that you never knew you had ..... Joking aside....I am impressed that you travelled right across the country to see him, just like a true premie.Did you feel the inciest ,winciest bit of brotherhood and bliss ?On the whole did you enjoy it and was it worth the effort?I would love to hear more of your neutral outsider observations. Has it helped you to understand our ramblings on this forum? Best wishes to you Andries Lexy.
Modified by lexy at Tue, Jul 04, 2006, 16:30:15
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I had already gone to an introduction programme before, because I was told by Wikipedia Jossi that I had been under the influence of negative propaganda by ex-premies and he told me to verify this myself. I am impressed that you travelled right across the country to see him, It was not that much effort for me to go to the speech/darshan by Maharaji. The Hague is nearby. Did you feel the inciest ,winciest bit of brotherhood and bliss ? No, not really, but I talked to a Dutch premie daughter who was very friendly and she told me that it was not a "cult" (she used the English word) and not a "sekte" (sect in English). On the whole did you enjoy it and was it worth the effort? No, I did not enjoy nor did I dislike it, but it did somewhat satisfy my curiosity and in addition, I expect that my visit increases my status in this group I do not know what else I can tell unless you ask me questions. http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/8114.html Andries
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That's quite a provocative subject header, Andries. I expect that my visit increases my status in this group As far as I'm concerned, you're an honorary ex-premie, Andries. You've earned it. And, I don't have one question for you...today! Love and peace to you, Cynthia, am I sucking up to you to much, Andries?
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