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the neutrality warning has been removed - by Jossi.surprise, surprise. - and that's not quite what I meant by editing the site as being "educational".
Modified by cq at Fri, May 19, 2006, 16:07:45
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About a year ago I went to the library of the free university of Amsterdam and told one of the staff members there that I would use the book for Wikipedia. He clearly showed his contempt for the experiment through non-verbal communication. But when I went there today I saw one of the staff members (another one) using Wikipedia. However he told me that he was aware of its drawbacks. My conclusion is that in many cases, even people who condemn and distrust tend to use it because it is free and huge. Andries
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Like Communism?Or Capitalism?
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Real libraries, with real human librarians, that value real books are are what's free, huge, and wonderful. Wikipedia is crap and only lazy people read it and it's never appropriate for a child to ever enter that website unsupervised by a responsible adult. Before you get sidetracked on all things Wikpedia, Andries, there are some posts below that you haven't responded to. You can start with mine. Please know that folks here have brought up legitimate concerns and well, I'm reminding you that you haven't responded. http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/6136.html
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Okay, I will try to respond to the difficult questions and critical comments that you and some others have made regarding my behavior. Sheesh, is it only me on this forum or forum8 who gets questioned/interrogated so much?  The reason why I sometimes do not answer questions is because I do not have an opinion about the subject (yet). Real human librarians use Wikipedia too. I saw it today with my own eyes. Andries
Modified by Andries at Fri, May 19, 2006, 17:20:23
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...it's me.I hope all is well with you. Yes,real people do use Wiki.They are often oblivious to it's serious drawbacks and as you say it's huge, free, quick and easy (said the bishop to the actress). I think it was Cynthia who pointed out that it gets used as a source by other publications . This is a very useful attribute for those wishing to disseminate falsehoods ;by planting them first in Wiki and then sitting back and doing nothing ! I wonder how many actors and actresses have an incorrect d.o.b. published in Wiki.,( like Navi Rawat has) making them younger than they really are.This is a relatively harmless ploy but nevertheless a rewriting of history on the most basic of levels.
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Lexy, I had read your remarks about Navi's date of birth, but it did not cross my mind that an actress would make herself a bit younger. Yes, Wiki is sometimes a dangerous virus of misinformation to people who are ignorant of its drawbacks. On the other hand it is often better than the average on the internet. Andries
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....and I think somebody found you under a gooseberry bush
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Lexy, I like your writing style, but sometimes it is difficult to understand for foreigners who never lived in the USA or UK, because of the informal expressions that you use, like "under gooseberry bush" that are not even in my illegal copy of the Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary. I did not meant to be as critical and I am not saying that you should change anything. It is just an observation. http://www.underthegooseberrybush.co.uk/ Andries
Modified by Andries at Sat, May 20, 2006, 03:29:14
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Modified by LP at Sat, May 20, 2006, 04:05:25
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Andries,From under the gooseberry bush is one of the answers to the question of where babies come from. Other babies are delivered by storks. Funnily enough, I was pruning the dead branches from our gooseberry bushes on thursday, although I didn't find any babies, and Latvia has the highest population of storks in Europe. With all these gooseberry bushes and storks I wonder why our population is declining. Trying to get back on topic it's about naive beliefs, like believing that a greedy Indian kid could be an incarnation of God. In comparison the idea that babies are found under gooseberry bushes seems quite plausible. John.
Modified by JHB at Sat, May 20, 2006, 08:31:54
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>it's about naive beliefs, like believing that a greedy Indian kid could be an incarnation of God. In comparison the idea that babies are found under gooseberry bushes seems quite plausible< Perhaps plausibility is not so important as group affirmation when it comes to accepting adult myths. The origin of babies is essentially a personal myth acceptable only to those who have never been confronted by the reality of child birth. Incarnations of God are pretty hard to ' reality test' and religious belief is profoundly affected by social approval/acceptance. Baby trees, tooth faeries and Santa Claus are all plausible within a child's world view, but the strength of belief in these myths is weakened by the knowinging exchanges of the adults who are complicit in maintaining the myths. By contrast, myths of God Incarnations, or even just the acceptance of 'celebrity' or the abilities of suppossedly specially skilled individuals, involve adult agreement that there is an unquestionable truth. Hitler was a wholely implausible Arian Hero - but he was, for almost the whole of German generation, a 'believable' Arian Hero. Here's a plausible hypothesis about hirsuitism: - It's only the hairs on a gooseberry that stop it from being a grape. And it's only the hair's that aren't on a man - that stop from being an ape ! Nik
Modified by JHB-Admin at Sat, May 20, 2006, 08:38:29
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Sorry for my intensity Andries, I was out of line and there's no need for you to feel obligated to answer my posts below. Btw, I was reading our local weekly paper today and found out that Vermont has the most libraries per capita than any other state in the U.S. I think that's so cool, even though many of them are very small spaces. The state makes up for it by having large regional libraries where the local ones can draw from. It makes research easy, because with intra-library loaning, I can just ask my librarian for any books I want and she searches all the university libraries, locals, and regionals. Unless something is out of print, I don't have to drive farther than my local library to get any books I want/need. We also have a Vermont Online Library where there is a wealth of information that's free to do more indepth research on periodicals, books, scholarly stuff and more. Lots of stuff for kids, too. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, May 20, 2006, 06:11:20
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Forgive me Andries for having a bit of lighthearted fun at your expense! I am an English teacher who teaches foreign students.I confess that I knew that my reference to a "gooseberry bush" would probably cause bewilderment. I'm trying to advance your level ! Your english is very good Andries and I admire your determination as I understand how much more difficult it is for you to post here than for a native speaker. Whenever I post to you I am well aware of the level of difficulty and envisage you getting out your dictionaries. In Britain it is ( or used to be ) traditional to tell a child who asks "Where do babies come from?" ,and is considered too young to understand the intracacies of copulation ,that they are found "under a gooseberry bush" Oh,and btw IMO "under a gooseberry bush" SHOULD be in the Illegal (?) Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary. They deserve a rap on the knuckles.( thinks: I wonder if "rap on the knuckles" is in there?"
Modified by lexy at Sat, May 20, 2006, 13:35:44
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I bought a copy of the Oxford Advanced learner's dictionary in Bandung, Indonesia for half of the normal price, but upon careful study of printing quality of the book I found out that it had been Xeroxed. It is very easy to get illegal xeroxed copies of books there. I had one book xeroxed there upon request. Andries.
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<a href="http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/GOO_GOW.htm">The Fidder's Companion</a> has some speculation on this term:
‘Gooseberry Bush’ has been used as a euphemism
for female pubic hair and genitalia, and indeed, countless children were
informed in past times that babies were found ‘under a gooseberry bush’. This
usage may have derived from the French for gooseberry, groseille a marquerea. Marquereau
is the word for pimp, while une femme
gross is the term given to a pregnant woman.
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Cynthia,
There are many good articles on Wikipedia and I cannot understand why you are carrying on about the Hate Group article. What possible harm is it causing "ex-premies"? It is comeletley appropriate for Andries to have put that mention of Elan Vital's spurious claims in there if for no other reason that it is true. Elan Vital has accused people who post on this forum and it's earlier incarnations of being a "Hate Group".
In case you've forgottten what it says, here it is:
"Hate group" as a label
The classification of other groups as a hate group is controversial
and little or no consensus has developed as to whether political,
religious or anti-religious movements deserve the label hate group. The
term "hate group" as a pejorative characterization slung against one's
opponents has come to be used by a wide variety of people and groups:
See alsoThe important sentence is: "The
term "hate group" as a pejorative characterization slung against one's
opponents has come to be used by a wide variety of people and groups:"
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Ocker, why is it that you don't post here under your real name anymore? Is it possible that you're trying to reduce the number of Google hits that come up under your real name that say you're a member of a hate-group? I edited that article last week to reduce the rhetoric in it and had to argue with Jossi about it and well, as it turned out I was correct that Adidam and it's bogus "Freedom of Religion" webpage doesn't also call ex-premies a hate-group. So I got the sentence narrowed to to only EV calling us a hate-group instead of a whole other personality cult and their bitching about not being able to worship the idiot of their choice without criticism. Yes, the typo is probably mine, but it's insignificant. It's complicated if one doesn't pay attention. I know what the article states and how it reads. It's still unacceptable, and please Ocker, do not shove another paste and cut version of it in my face here again. Like I said, it's deeply offensive to me. Btw, you're clueless about the connotations and history of having the label "hate-group" upon you if you're an American.
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, May 19, 2006, 18:13:44
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How on earth can "a cut and paste" of the article you are criticising Andies over be offensive or "deeply offensive"?
If you are the person who has edited the article's statements about "ex-premies" to it's present status then congratulations, it is short, pertinent and appropriate.
I believe I have as complete an understanding of the denotations and connotations of the label "hate-group" no matter what nationality as anyone else and your personal abuse of me should stop or I will report you to the moderators. It is a completely different thing to be accused of being a "Hate Group" by a respected organisation such as B'nai B'rith and to be accused of being one by a bogus cult that worships an ignorant guru.
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Let's just drop the subject. Sorry you misunderstood me.
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Thanks for your comment about real libraries with real human librarians, Cynthia. I've noticed that we don't give much shrift to Wiki in our reference department--oh, it's looked at for amusement or diversion, I know--but it isn't something we go to for real information, and certainly wouldn't be the only source, if we did. ~Shelagh
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