And even more: Argosy
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Jean-Michel ®

04/06/2006, 05:33:05
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Re: And even more: Argosy (2)
Re: And even more: Argosy -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
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04/06/2006, 05:34:52
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Re: And even more: Argosy (3)
Re: Re: And even more: Argosy (2) -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
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04/06/2006, 05:35:46
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Re: And even more: Argosy (4)
Re: Re: And even more: Argosy (3) -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
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04/06/2006, 05:38:08
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Re: And even more: Argosy (5)
Re: And even more: Argosy -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
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04/06/2006, 05:38:30
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Wow! If I had known all this back then...
Re: Re: And even more: Argosy (5) -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
shelagh ®

04/06/2006, 10:00:51
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...in the early 80's, I KNOW I would not have spent even one more minute being a "premie"!  It's disgusting!  And of course, my husband was right about him from the very beginning, about these scammer gurus (fellow-countrymen of his) whom he found very embarassing!  There are many honest people from India after all.

I regret buying the whole trip!  But how could we know what was so carefully suppressed from all the official channels of information!

When I told a friend of mine who had once been a propagation "prospect" that I was now out of it all, and suggested she check epo for the reasons why, she said she was astonished that so much of that extremely questionable stuff was so OLD!  Yes, it's truly embarassing.  All I can say is, I didn't know any of it until I logged on to epo in 2001.

Talk about incontestable evidence, too, that he DID promote the idea of his being "Lord of the Universe" etc.!  It's all there in black and white!

Thanks for posting these, Jean-Michel!  It's a great service to the truth!

I am hopping mad again--and I thought I was done with being angry!  And feel again, like a first class IDIOT!

~Shelagh







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Re: Wow! If I had known all this back then...
Re: Wow! If I had known all this back then... -- shelagh Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

04/06/2006, 13:59:09
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Don't beat yourself up too much, Shelagh, I did know about this stuff in 1975 as an aspirant and still wanted to become a premie.  Why?  I believed all the Divine Lies and Rationalizations that were dished out.

Nothing has changed...







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Re: Wow! If I had known all this back then...
Re: Re: Wow! If I had known all this back then... -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
shelagh ®

04/06/2006, 14:39:13
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Thanks, Cynthia!  Of course, so MANY people--good people--have been had by this whole thing, and for a lot longer than me.  The energy of the anger this provokes has been wonderful rocket fuel to project me OUT of this yuckiness!  So anger has its uses.  I will learn what I can from my susceptibility to this Scam of all Scammages!  No more beating myself up, for sure.

I've been thinking about what it takes to make important life decisions, and obviously getting all the facts is essential.  Any good parent would tell this to their child, or recommend it to a friend.  Any banker or businessman or teacher (who's honest!) would want you to have all the facts before deciding about something.  Even CEO's of large companies (Enron, Worldcom and their ilk aside) probably spend a lot of time assessing the facts and realities of the business they're in, the products they sell, the markets they want to reach, the kind of people who work for them, and so on.  And these assessments change as more facts come in, of course. I suppose it's not possible to have ALL the facts at any given time, but enough to be able to make an informed and intelligent decision is the only way to have some integrity--for the seller and the buyer! 

What could have been more important than the decision we made to follow this so-called "guru"?????  Yet I don't remember ANYONE having a concern for all the facts, when I was being approached about it.  Even the word "fact" would have been frowned on!  You'd be accused of being "in your mind" if you even said it!

And the other part of it was that we were  so showered with "information" (known in the real world as "propoganda" that it just didn't occur to me that were things that were NOT being said!    Very clever stuff!  Always ask what's NOT being said!

I make sure I get as much information as I can about anything I'm being asked to sign my name to, these days!  If I've learned nothing else--at least that!  Yes, be a troublemaker!

Politicians, cult leaders, and corporate crooks--they are the ones at the bottom of the Great Chain of Being as far as I'm concerned.  And the surest sign of their presence?--perpetrating only the half of the story that brings them bags of money.  So what if they eat everything in sight--they are fat with greed, and most unattractive and stupid--slugs, all of them!  And even this comparison isn't fair to slugs, who are doing a useful job in the larger scheme of things.

Grrr....I'm off to take a very long, very hot shower!

Keep the info coming, folks!

Thanks,

Shelagh, on the path of reclamation







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Re: Never exaggerate to prevent loss of credibility
Re: Re: Wow! If I had known all this back then... -- shelagh Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Andries ®

04/06/2006, 16:27:27
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Shelagh,

I vividly remember an article by the Dutch psychologist professor Piet Vroon who compare in the section "Science and Society" of the Dutch newspaper my guru with Hitler and his followers with Nazis. The article was so opionated that the newspaper should never have placed it in that section. Unfortunately, it was so exaggerated and contrasting with my experience in the Netherlands that I did not take the rest of the rest of the criticism seriously. A very much toned down version of this article is available in English under the title "Santa Claus in India".

This article in Argosy about GMJ too seems to disseminate exaggerated fear, if not paranoia in the last paragraph.

Andries (amended for grammar)





Related link: toned down version of "Santa Claus in India" by prof. Piet Vroon in English
Modified by Andries at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 16:59:50

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Well, Andries, how is a reporter supposed to interpret......
Re: Re: Never exaggerate to prevent loss of credibility -- Andries Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
NAR ®

04/06/2006, 16:34:24
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A Mahatma and a senior "devotee" bashing some reporter in the head with a hammer (as it turned out) ?

If you knew of that incident, then you see all these happy clappers blissfully unaware of (or even saying they would do it too)..... how would YOU have interpreted this "movement?"

A possible Jonestown, maybe (even though THAT hadn't occurred, yet)? Or worse?

I don't think that article, taken at the time it was written, was off the wall, at all. I am just really sorry that he thought people like me could do that...... but I have to admit, he certainly had the proof to the pudding, so to speak!







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Right, NAR
Re: Well, Andries, how is a reporter supposed to interpret...... -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

04/06/2006, 17:09:52
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When I spoke with Pat Halley a couple of years ago, he told me he was still very afraid of Prem Rawat and any of his followers and ex-premies, too.  He still suffers to this day from that attack -- mild brain damage, etc.  He also told me he still has some books from the day of the attack with his blood on them.  Maharaji sure changed his life forever.

The writer isn't exaggerating that I could tell. What did he exaggerate?  All that stuff was common knowledge in the Hartford community I was from. 

I don't know if it was the same one, but I saw the Silver Cloud at DECA.  Now that's one fine-looking automobile.  Once you see Maharaji's luxury cars, it's memorable because they are kept in impeccable shape for him.     I don't remember it's color being emerald green, but, it was a Silver Cloud.  I can't imagine a teenager tooling around in one of those!  lol 

I call what premies around Maharaji do for himthe "impeccable imperative," because he doesn't much like to get his hands dirty, with like grease.

Here's the documentation on EPO for anyone who want's to read about the Pat Halley murder attempt, the events that followed and Mahatma Fakiranand's escape from justice.





Related link: Pat Halley - EPO
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 17:15:06

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wow... thankyou for Pat Halley
Re: Right, NAR -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/06/2006, 17:53:07
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letters.... a must read ...  we could learn a lot from a man like that...





Modified by LP at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 18:03:04

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Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient!
Re: Right, NAR -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
NAR ®

04/06/2006, 19:14:53
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I really am upset with myself for not walking out the door the moment I knew about that incident, even though it had occurred a little before my time.

As soon as I heard about it, and all of the apologetics that followed, I should have known better!

Let's put it thi way...... did the guy who pied Bush, Sr get beaten to death? Well, he might have been under arrest for a while so the Secet Service could investigate the guy and see if there was something more to it, but I think everyone would understand that action...... still, did the guy get beaten? AND this is someone who really is/was IMPORTANT, not just self-important.

Jeez, the little guru cannot even take a joke...... like a pie would hurt him.....







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Re: Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient!
Re: Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient! -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/06/2006, 20:05:49
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 Truly... I was around and was severely rocked back upon my heels I remember: a break occurred that never healed. The news came out slowly of course. First we were all shocked about the pie,.. the other incident filtered out into ashrams some time later and against probable efforts to withhold it from us..  Nevertheless I am ashamed to have ever attended another program and not to have walked as far away as I could get in body and mind from the whole affair. 
         Other events, I shall not go into now, had already given me deep concerns about Fakiranand  and  cause to doubt the wisdom and sanity of his being sent to U.S., I guess I fell into "I told you so" and blamed it on the decision makers rather than m, who was quoted at the time as saying he wanted no retaliation.
      There are however a long list of milestone moments, which I might  share at other times, at which I was getting clear messages to walk away.  I am equally ashamed not to have left at each of those also.  








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Hi LP!
Re: Re: Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient! -- LP Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
shelagh ®

04/07/2006, 08:42:09
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I hope you'll consider adding your story to the Journeys section of epo at some point. I have the feeling you must know a lot, and were there for a lot of the history!  Actual witnesses can do so much more than the revisionists in terms of what our real experience was, and what actually happened--granted we all have our different slant on same--but what is incontestable (sp?) is what we experienced and saw as individuals!  Nobody can say we didn't see or hear what we saw and heard!

~Shelagh







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Re: Hi LP! nobody can say we didn't see or hear what we saw and heard
Re: Hi LP! -- shelagh Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/07/2006, 11:21:28
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Nowone does!   often!





Modified by LP at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 11:24:42

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True enuf! nt
Re: Re: Hi LP! nobody can say we didn't see or hear what we saw and heard -- LP Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
shelagh ®

04/07/2006, 12:11:55
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They should have used his favorite pie
Re: Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient! -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Premie_Spouse ®

04/06/2006, 20:08:29
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Jeez, the little guru cannot even take a joke...... like a pie would hurt him.....

Goom Rodjie probably got all pissy 'cause it wasn't his favorite flavor. Now, if it had been, and he could have yummed up on it for awhile, then maybe everything would have been okay and he wouldn't have ordered the man beaten up or killed. So, the lesson here is, if you're going to do something, like douse the Lard with cognac, find out his favorite brand. (Better idea, douse him with grain alcohol and bring the cognac here, I could use a splash!)





Modified by Premie_Spouse at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 20:08:46

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It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off...
Re: Pat Halley is a brave guy and resilient! -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

04/07/2006, 05:34:25
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That's what Pat told me.  He got $18K.

I don't know where I was at in 1975, but I certainly wasn't walking on the ground when I was told about all the things in the article, including murder attempt.  The way I was told these things was as if I was being brought into a "confidence" by the community coordinator and aspirant coordinator.  I was was told by those premies not to tell the other aspirants, because "they" wouldn't have understood (the rationalisations) the "way I did."  That made me feel "accepted."  I am sad to say I didn't walk out, not looking back.

Some old-timer premies were laughing/joking about this crime as recently as 1999, right here in Vermont when we were talking about the old days in private in between live satellite feeds.  That was about the time I did walk out for good -- many "drips" were adding up.  

So, Pat Halley was paid $18K (not even the price of one of little Prem's cars) which was consumed by his medical bills, so Rawat & Co. got off quite cheap for a murder attempt. 






Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 08:53:41

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Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off...
Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off... -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
NAR ®

04/07/2006, 10:20:05
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I know, Cynthia....... apparently I wasn't clear. The "joke" was Halley hitting M with a pie...... not the near-death-dealing response by the master of peace.

The one thing that confuses me, though, is that I could swear Fakiranand was wiping his nose on his clothing at a knowledge selection session in SF a year later...... The question he was fond of asking seemed to be, "would you cut your head off for M?" Ring any bells?

Joe, if you are reading this, am I wrong? That bald-headed zealot is hard to miss and I seem to remember that old fart being in the ashram for awhile. Did he sneak back into the country? Or did I see him and my dates are just mixed up? Something just isn't adding up in my mind here...... Unless, of course, I am misidentifying the really old mahatma that was at the SF Ashram that day in Feb 74. Rajeshwar was there, too, since he is the one who "revealed" the techniques that day.

Added later: Maybe I am misidentifying the mahatma in question. Was there another old-fart, bald-headed mahatma that everyone seemd to love? Not gurucharnand, he was too young then.... this guy was really old and had the habit of wiping his nose and glasses on his clothing....... Nice enough guy, tho, as I remember........ I do remember that everyone really seemd to love the guy. Ring any bells Joe?






Modified by NAR at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 11:49:23

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Update to my post.......
Re: Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off... -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
NAR ®

04/07/2006, 12:04:53
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Well, I finally found a picture of fakiranand and NOPE, that wasn't the old mahatma that I always thought was fakiranand.

Actually, somehow that makes me feel better. At least I never touched that guy (fakiranand)...... ugghhh!

So who WAS that old dude in the ahsram that everyone loved so much?

Sampuranand? Was he older? When I say older, folks, I'm thinking something around 75-80 or so....... definitely older






Modified by NAR at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 12:07:30

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Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off...
Re: Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off... -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

04/07/2006, 12:53:55
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NAR,

I wasn't scolding you, I was just having a "moment" of miff, probably at myself for being duped and ignoring all that sh*t.

Anyway, I always steered clear of the mahatmas because they scared me.






Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 12:54:28

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I really don't get why the police seemed to drop ball on this
Re: Re: It was a *crime* not a joke, Halley was paid off... -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 13:46:54
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Maybe our lawyer friends could help me understand. Two people plan a murder, trick the victim and nearly beat him to death, cause permanent brain damage.

What happened to extradition? What about the premie that helped Fakiranand? It's just so wrong that they didn't have to go to jail.

Do you think that it was something about the seventies? If the same crime happened today would they be able to escape justice as easily?

Over a stupid pie in the face the guys skull is crushed in.....

makes me think a million humiliating Mala Booby pics in the future is just what Rawat deserved....







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Yeah, pretty weird, wasn't it?
Re: I really don't get why the police seemed to drop ball on this -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Jim ®

04/07/2006, 13:56:50
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Susan,

The impression I got was that the cops just didn't bother because Pat didn't want to pursue it (I'm sure he was scared shitless), he was an agitpropagating lefty radical and ... well, you know, it might have just been some capricious bit of cop laziness, really.  It's funny how arbitrary these things can be.  A grand jury convened for assault charges against the black congresswoman for hitting the security guard but then something like this and nothing.  I don't know.  Maybe there was a bit more to it, something a little sinister.  Maybe they thought it would be an embarrasment to the Mayor's office seeing as he'd just given the key to the city to Rawat or something.  Who knows?







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Re: Yeah, pretty weird, wasn't it?
Re: Yeah, pretty weird, wasn't it? -- Jim Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 14:02:30
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yeah it is really weird and Jim two other things I remember you said about this that are worth repeating...

One is the conversation with Donner-

And on January 30, 2000 Jim says this about the meeting with Michael Donner:

met with him and Gary Ockendon late July or early August '98 at a restaurant in Nelson (British Columbia) called the Fiddler's Green, I think. Gourmet country restaurant that used to be the DLM ashram back in '74. You know, the place where Tejeshwaranand gave three knowledge sessions and got a girl pregnant all in one night. Donner told us all that Maharaji met with him personally after the pie and hammer incidents and ordered him to drive Fakiranand to Chicago, then across the border to Canada and to arrange for him to be flown to Europe. That's it. No more, no less.

And the other was a very logical deduction I am searching for I thought was important....







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Jim isn't that a crime? What is the name of the crime conspicacy after fact?
Re: Re: Yeah, pretty weird, wasn't it? -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 14:04:18
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Something like that...right?







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Here was your point that Rawat may have ordered it and why
Re: Jim isn't that a crime? What is the name of the crime conspicacy after fact? -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 14:10:21
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I think its very logical.

DID MJ SET A FIRE UNDER FAKIRANAND'S ASS?

As told to me by Ann Johnston.

That day when MJ was pied by Pat Halley, there was a press conference scheduled at the ashram following the reception where he was going to receive his civic award or key to the city.

Ann had been busy preparing these hand made signs that said 'press' on them to be placed on the back of the chairs for the media people and one 'special' sign for MJ's chair that of course said 'Guru Maharaj Ji ' on it.

Now the people in the ashram who had been waiting for MJ to return from the reception had heard about him being pied, even before he returned home.

According to Ann, Fakiranand upon hearing the news 'cowered in a corner of the room like a little boy...and began trembling.' Then MJ returned. According to Ann he was totally enraged. He stormed into the ashram and upon noticing the signs Ann had made for the chairs saying 'press', he proceeded to rip them all off, and shouted out, 'No more Media!'

MJ then noticed Fakiranand cowering in the corner of the room, and according to Ann, he spoke the following words to him:

'I don't want you to hurt this man'

End of story. You guys of course know the rest.

But the thing I want to share with you is this.

When Ann told me this story (in 1996) I had this 'gut' feeling that there was something wrong with it. That she wasn't telling the truth, and moreover she may be hiding some dark, long held secret.

I couldn't figure it out. What was wrong with Ann's goddamn story?!

And then one day when I was driving in the car, it came to me.

Here's Mj returning after being pied. The little 15 year old pisher is in a rage, so much so that he storms into the Ashram, rips off signs, shouts out 'no more media'...and then calmly, in English, says to Fakiranand 'I don't want you to hurt this man.'

Two things.

In the early days I have great difficulty remembering MJ speak to the mahatmas in English. He seemed to always speak to them in Hindi.

Secondly, for those of you who speak a second language, and have the kind of grip on it that MJ had with his English then...it is extremely difficult to slip into your second language when you're that angry, but not that fluent.

I just have a hard time believing Ann's story.

Somehow I envisage M in that moment, shouting out something in Hindi, blaming the whole pie incident on his mahatmas who failed to protect him or something like that...and thereby setting Fakiranand off.

To this day, and especially after hearing Ann's defence of Mj, I believe that he not only directed traffic after the fact, but that in his irresponsible little bratty ways, he incited Fakiranand to commit the crime.

And that's the story guys.


Jim responded:

Joey,

I know you mentioned this before but I'd never really thought about it. But this story's extremely important. And know what? It doesn't even matter what exactly happened. I completely understand your speculative skepticism about Ann's version. That all makes sense. But, like I say, it doesn't even matter. Here's why.

All we need to know is that Maharaji saw Fakiranand and said anything at all to him after the pie-throwing. The implications are disastrous for Maharaji. We know for a fact that Fakiranand would not have tried to kill Halley in direct contravention of Maharaji's agya. That a virtual certainty and I can't imagine anyone the least bit familiar with the cult back then to even suggest otherwise.

See, without ever really thinking about it all these years, I'd always assumed that Fakiranand acted before he'd ever spoken to Maharaji one way or the other about Halley. The impression I got (was given?) was of a only-slightly-too-fanatical devotee attacking this infidel in the misguided hope that his master would be pleased. I always felt a little sorry for Fakiranand in a way as I imagined him showing up in front of Maharaji and getting absolutely lambasted for acting so rashly. Like a cat bringing in the neighbour's budgie.

But this changes everything. Again, there is absolutely no way Fakiranand would have displeased Maharaji intentionally. Thus, if he saw Maharaji and heard him out on Halley before he tried to kill him, well what we're talking about folks is nasty business.

Now what was Maharaji's reason for spiriting Fakiranand out of the country again?

This is amazing.







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It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan.
Re: Here was your point that Rawat may have ordered it and why -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nigel ®

04/07/2006, 15:08:50
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Hi Susan,

Thanks for resurrecting these posts - there is certainly some valuable info there for many more recent exes who are not aware of these events and earlier discussions.

However, I have to disagree with Jim, here  (or Jim's former forum self). 

>But this changes everything. Again, there is absolutely no way Fakiranand would have displeased Maharaji intentionally. Thus, if he saw Maharaji and heard him out on Halley before he tried to kill him, well what we're talking about folks is nasty business.

Jim seems to assume a kind of rationality on Fakirinand's part (ie. the importance of not displeasing his master, or acting without agya - and, BTW, I loved the budgie analogy, Jimbo )

But, as I see it, anyone who, in cold blood, is capable of, acting friendly whilst luring a journalist to a secret location with a pack of lies and then smash his head in with a hammer - no doubt intending murder - is probably on the verge of psychopathy, or is at least seriously clinically disturbed.  No directive from on high required.  It might make a juicier story if we could assign a bit of culpability Rawat's way.  Maybe we can - but only to the extent of M's pretending to be the Lord of the Universe.

What M did or didn't do after the attack, is another story, of course, and well worth further investigation...






Modified by Nigel at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 15:16:00

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Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy.
Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan. -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/07/2006, 15:46:33
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We cannot remove culpability from Rawat because it was his insistence on being ultimately responsible for everything as the Lord of the Universe that caused the kind of mental condition F. found himself in.
Nowone can hope to be healthy or rational when the Heart and Soul of the Actual Flaming Universe Itself is pacing up and down, waving his arms and screaming abuse ...and blaming the pie .. most... probably,.... on F.'s useless and scary satsang methods:
(that once set a whole city against the mission at a program coming close to getting several premies and mahatmas killed, in a town called Deveria.. the "holy family" escaping only by the skin of their teeth, but that's another story..)
and now his refusal to retract the claim amd release the souls of his students and relieve his ex ones continues to lock some in an unreal state of mental orientation. Whether he ordered it or not it is a culminating result of all that had led up to it. How many more disasters are waiting to happen when the truth cannot be held back any longer?





Modified by LP at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 16:02:36

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Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan.
Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan. -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
PatD ®

04/07/2006, 15:53:11
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Jim seems to assume a kind of rationality on Fakirinand's part ....

That's the point surely, that in Rawatworld Fakiranand's attempted murder was logical. I knew loads of people at the time, who, although they were shocked, could see why he'd done it. It all went away as an issue when word spread that GMJ was just as freaked out about it as everyone, & had cashiered Fakiranand back to India. Of course as we now know he had merely gone to Switzerland, & was carrying on spreading tha holy nollidge in the Franco-German border area.

About a year after the event,
I lived in a premie house with the guy who'd been his driver there, but that was never mentioned. I don't think I would've known what to make of that then, even had it come up as a topic of conversation, which it didn't.

The past doesn't exist for premies, & chit chat wasn't enouraged.

On the balance of probabilities I'd say that Rawat did ok the attack, but obviously proving it would be impossible.

Also, I can understand why Pat Halley doesn't want to have anything to do with ex-premies.Getting involved with this shit all over again after 30 yrs would be just too much. 






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Re: It ventures too close
Re: Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan. -- PatD Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/07/2006, 15:58:20
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have you read the Halley letters? .. he  invites ex premies and premies to contact and even come over and visit him. brave.





Modified by LP at Fri, Apr 07, 2006, 16:04:23

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Rational in a warped way, maybe, but not under instruction, I'm pretty sure..
Re: Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan. -- PatD Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nigel ®

04/07/2006, 16:46:25
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I get what you're saying Pat, that within the bounds of cult logic, obeying the Master is always 'rational'.  But I seriously do *not* believe that even when given direct agya, many cult followers would be able to carry out a vicious killing.  The very style of the (attempted) murder  suggests extreme psychological disturbance on Fakiranand's part - if the idea of killing was remotely distasteful to him, he could have arranged to slip poison into Halley's drink or something less obviously bloodthirsty.

It will take a lot to convince me Fakiranand was operating under anything but his own twisted reasoning, or that M would ever see any value in commissioning the action.  Wouldn't there have been a few more premie hit-squads out there that we'd have heard about by now if that were the cult style?

Rawat is guilty of many sins of both commission and omission, but let's all keep the discussion confined to the realms that we're pretty sure about, eh?

 







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Re: Rational in a warped way, maybe, but not under instruction, I'm pretty sure..
Re: Rational in a warped way, maybe, but not under instruction, I'm pretty sure.. -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
PatD ®

04/07/2006, 17:26:29
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I'm sure you're right that Fakiranand was a psycho, & don't get me wrong about the 'instruction'. With a fanatic like him, listening for the words of the master in the very midst of the fight, it would take more savvy than the average teenager possesses, to realise that ranting & raving about the incident would be seen as anything other than a green light

I don't suppose we'll ever know whether F sought prior permission to fix the wrong done to the Lord of the Universe, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to guess that he most likely did. Maybe he prostrated himself in a fit of remorse & outrage, & begged GMJ to let him take care of it.  All that would've been neccessary was a nod.

Whether Prem realised what would happen, that's something else.

What is certain is that he didn't give a shit about it afterwards, apart from making sure that the word got out to the premies that he did, that is.






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Re: Fakiranand is still involved with cult violence
Re: Re: Rational in a warped way, maybe, but not under instruction, I'm pretty sure.. -- PatD Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
JHB ®

04/08/2006, 01:21:56
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I have heard recently that Fakiranand, who now works for Satpal Rawat, is still involved with violence against cult critics, only now that he is older, he gives the orders.

Although people are free to express their opinions here, there does not appear to be evidence that Prem Rawat ordered the attack of Halley.

John.







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true Nigel its just he had food for thought
Re: It ventures too close to conspiracy theory for me, Susan. -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 16:19:48
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I agree, if the mahatma was sick and nuts enough to do what he did he could have done it against agya.

But the story of Rawat's response and rage strikes a chord. Also, the point made that Rawat spoke to the Mahatmas in Hindi, esp if he was furious, seems logical.

The point that Rawat spoke with Fakiranand at all after the incident is interesting.

This mahatma and whoever his accomplice was planned this. It was not spur of the moment. They both could have known M wanted nothing done and done it anyway but it sure is questionable to me. Especially in light of Rawat having had some interaction with Fakiranand after the pie throwing.

I sure wouldn't claim to KNOW Rawat ordered this or not based on the little we know. That is what is really sad about it appearing there was no real police investigation. It this meeting after the fact really happened they could have interviewed everyone there and if it was a lie I bet discrepancies would have shown up.

( even though there is nothing funny about this I could not help but ponder if the detective from the show NYPD blue had to interview a room full of premies. Yikes! Anyone ever watch that show, Sipowitz interviews Premie Ji, now that would be a hoot....sorry about the digression)







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'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest'?
Re: true Nigel its just he had food for thought -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nigel ®

04/07/2006, 17:02:10
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>This mahatma and whoever his accomplice was planned this. It was not spur of the moment. They both could have known M wanted nothing done and done it anyway but it sure is questionable to me. Especially in light of Rawat having had some interaction with Fakiranand after the pie throwing.

As I said above, Susan, I think what happened after the attack is *very* significant - the lack of police response and possible involvement of M in spiriting away the culprits in a damage limitation exercise.  I find that very easy to believe. 

I can also believe that Fakirinand heard M express his displeasure about things, but not that M would even hint at the necessity for violent revenge.

Sorry, but that just isn't the Maharaji that we all know and love

To suggest otherwise seems to muddy the waters somewhat.  There is definitely stuff there that deserves to be on Wikipedia, if we can - dammit! - just get the authoritative references to all this.







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Re: 'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest'?
Re: 'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest'? -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

04/07/2006, 17:34:57
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Nigel,

But what about the ashram premie accomplice?  I'm thinking that with Fakiranand being the person in power (in the mahatma/ashram premie relationship) maybe a sort of shared psychosis going on?  There are killers who dominate accomplices and here there was a whole cult mentality cooking on top of that.  I wonder about that premie, where he is, how he sleeps.







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really good points Nigel
Re: 'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest'? -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 17:44:05
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surely if M tended toward violent vengeance there would be a lot more of them. That is really a very good point.

That really does point toward M not knowing what Fakiranand was going to do.

I guess that I find your point so compelling that it really makes me believe it is most likely Fakiranand was not given any instuctions to do it.







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you also swayed me with the how the attempted murder occured
Re: really good points Nigel -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/07/2006, 17:49:16
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you are so right, if someone was "ordered" and wasn't already sadistic they probably would not choose the "wanna see the light I'll show you some light" method.

Chilling.







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Fakiranand
Re: 'Who will rid me of this turbulent priest'? -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

04/08/2006, 02:17:31
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Interesting thread, this!

I agree with Nigel that I don't think Maharaji would have directly ordered or given agya to kill or hurt Pat Halley. And certainly John is correct that we have no evidence that he did.

On the other hand, Fakiranand was plainly nuts, and still is. He is still active as a chief mahatma (only now for Satpal of course), and a friend saw him recently in Leicester England (where I live when in England) - Satpal has an ashram here.

I have heard recently from a good source that he is still very violent, engineering severe beatings to those who transgress his current cult. He is now a very old man, but is still the Hammer of the Lord.

Whether Maharaji spoke to Fakiranand or not, and whatever was said between them, it is clear that Fakiranand needed no encouragement to do what he did.

-- Mike




www.MikeFinch.com

Modified by Mike Finch at Sat, Apr 08, 2006, 02:20:00

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Re: Fakiranand
Re: Fakiranand -- Mike Finch Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Susan ®

04/08/2006, 02:52:08
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thanks Mike

I feel bad that I was the one that dredged the old stuff up now. But I really didn't put together some of the very logical arguments why it is unlikely M knew ahead of time.







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Re: Fakiranand
Re: Re: Fakiranand -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

04/08/2006, 03:23:59
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Hi Susan

No need to 'feel bad' at all! That's what this Forum is for, partly, to work things out and get others' opinions.

I am only saying that I don't *think* M gave that order, or would give it, and that Fakiranand certainly needed no encouragement. But I don't know for sure one way or the other.

Hope you are doing well, take care

-- Mike




www.MikeFinch.com


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'feel BAD about ...'? Stop that right now, Susan!
Re: Re: Fakiranand -- Susan Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nigel ®

04/08/2006, 18:04:00
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This is important historical information, Susan, and like I said earlier, thanks for resurrecting these old forum posts.  And please don't feel bad for one minute.  The thing is, in the five or six years since this was last discussed, there will have been any number of premies dropped out of the cult.  Maybe they will have some good new info to share that we didn't know back then.  Also, remember that loads of exes (eg. Shelagh above) didn't even seem to know about the hammer attack. 

And the way that Maharaji dealt with that episode - even without his initiating it - is a *big*, still unresolved story, IMO.  It will inevitably keep resurfacing until close-up witnesses finally tell the tale in full.

I've just had this morbid realisation that if Pat Halley had been killed, the game would have been over, there and then, for M and his western mission and I, and so many others would have been spared the wasted years.  But having said that, thank God (?) Pat survived, and the best of luck to him.  One man's life is worth any number of wasted years...







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Re: 'feel BAD about ...'? Stop that right now, Susan! .. . No Blame.
Re: 'feel BAD about ...'? Stop that right now, Susan! -- Nigel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
LP ®

04/08/2006, 18:39:09
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There is a need for the truth to come out, an event like this is a red light warning of a serious flaw in the whole concept. If it were not for a perceived arrogance and deception, (invisible to us at the time) m might have escaped the pie, and the resultant alarm signal which went out across the world. There were many flaws leading off the main flaw.
One of them was that with so many mission officials trying to focus on m, there was sometimes very little place for the other virtues like common sense, compassion, understanding..etc. Eventually some event must have brought these true colours to light: human nature demands this in order to learn and evolve on earth. No Blame.

loopy





Modified by LP at Sat, Apr 08, 2006, 19:01:06

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Re: good point Nar, but I think there was some indication that this would stay an incident
Re: Well, Andries, how is a reporter supposed to interpret...... -- NAR Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Andries ®

04/07/2006, 16:27:08
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I think there was some indication that this violence would stay an incident, so the writer could have toned down his last paragraph a bit. After all, the movement claimed to bring peace on earth and the embarassment by GMJ and his spokespersons seemed to be sincere.

Andries







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Re: Can you post the pictures with the article?
Re: And even more: Argosy -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Ocker ®

04/06/2006, 16:02:32
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JM, well done on locating these articles!
Re: And even more: Argosy -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
NAR ®

04/06/2006, 16:18:22
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They are invaluable on any number of levels. Not the least of which is the clear and unmistakable fact that he claimed to be the LOTU! It isn't even an ex-premie saying it.... it is a reporter saying it....... and long before there were any ex's to speak of, too!





Modified by NAR at Thu, Apr 06, 2006, 16:18:45

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Re: Here's the text, how about the pics?
Re: And even more: Argosy -- Jean-Michel Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Ocker ®

04/06/2006, 16:30:11
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THE MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR RELIGION RIPOFF
BY ERNIE BAXTER

The Perfect Master  may, lift your spirit.  He'll certainly lift  your purse.

For the unemployed Guru who finds himself a little down at the sandals and behind in the rent, Mecca is spelled A-M-E-R-I-C-A. Since the Beatles made Guruworship a national pastime in the late '60s, the U.S. has become the New World alternative to the Old World poverty-and-begging bit.

The scenario is easy to follow. A few carefully staged press conferences to announce your connection to "Him," plus the patience to squat in a hot robe for hours while hordes of adolescents and other starry-eyed creatures kiss your feet-and shazam!-you're on the road to a higher tax bracket. To the people who keep an eye on these kinds of phenomena, brand-new Eastern Deities are making some very serious money now.

The leader in the field is the 16year-old, chubby faced Indian car freak known in the trade as Guru Maharaj Ji. In case that name didn't set off any heavenly bells, he is currently proprietor of "The Divine Light Mission," his father's brainstorm. The late Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, a wealthy, middle-class Indian who spent 40 years working the Guru circuit in India, "left this body" when Maharaj was eight years old. Five years later the young Guru made his public debut in India and promptly announced that he was the "Lord of the Universe." In 1971 he made his first American trip to hold a Guru Puja-or Guru worship-festival in
the heady atmosphere of the Colorado mountains, adding some 2,000 American converts in the process.

All this has not landed the Guru's company in the Top 10 of Fortune Magazine's "500" yet, but what it has done is to make Maharaj Ji the hottest thing going in the Eastern religion business. At the tender age of 16, he has his very own tax-exempt foundation, incorporated in the State of Colorado, which has an annual operating budget in excess of $3 million. Coast to coast the Guru's company operates 35 full-time Ashrams (an Indian word meaning shelter) and 30 Premie (meaning "lover of God" houses that soon will be Ashrams. In addition, there are 300 more Premie houses open around the country.

Michael Bergman, who left his job as Public Information Officer for the New York City Sanitation Department to become Executive Financial Director of DLM, describes the company as "the fastest growing corporation in America." Between January and June of 1973, Bergman claims, DLM grew 800 percent. "Our business practices are sound," he says, "and our credit and collateral are sound. Dun and Bradstreet has all our financial information," Absolutely! DLM is the McDonald's of religion.

With that kind of business going for him, the Guru does very well personally. His Los Angeles home is valued at $76,000, his Denver residence at $80,000. He owns hundreds of acres of property in New York, Rhode Island, Vermont and Maine, donated by his followers and their families. For his traveling convenience, the Guru has selected a single-engined Cessna Cardinal airplane worth $30,000, and a twin-engined version of the same make that set the faithful back $190,000. He drives his own $12,000 Mercedes Benz when he's in New York, and prefers to tool around in a $26,000 emerald green Rolls Royce Silver Cloud when he's in Los Angeles. He has a $12,000 mobile home stuffed away in Montrose, California, along with thousands of dollars' worth of movie and sound equipment that the Premies schlepp whenever the Guru decides to travel.

His biggest project to date, and not yet off the ground, is "The Divine City." According to Guru Ji, it will rise up out of the brown California scrub in less than a year after construction begins. A tract of land near Santa Barbara seems to have caught the holy eye, although nothing has been approved yet. While everybody's waiting, the purchase price has climbed to a reported $11 million. Larry Berstein, a Premie and the architect on this Divine project, describes it as ". . . a city where anyone in need of food or clothing will get it free of charge. Token payment will be in the form of service. The whole city will be self-supporting and will feature non-polluting factories that will run on solar energy." You have to move a lot of hamburger to live like that.

However, it ain't hamburger that's for sale, exactly. Religion is the game and money and power the stakes. What the Guru sells is, simply stated, peace of mind and bright prospects for eternity. No matter what problems you have, no matter what troubles you're into, receiving his special "Knowledge" will take care of everything. Further, as the only window to eternity, Maharaj Ji offers a look into the future on this side of the grave, a selling point not lost on people who have a hard time handling the idea of their own death.

If you buy the Guru's plan, you get a choice of two different forevers. You can either opt for reincarnation as one of the "Enlightened Ones, blessed with the Knowledge of Truth." and return to impart the Knowledge to the ignorant, or you can float around the cosmos and enjoy the pleasures of eternal life as a formless spirit. Without the Knowledge, so the Premies tell you, your prospects for eternity are not good. But for them, Guru Ji simplifies everything. All you have to do is choose one from column A or one from column B.

Receiving the Knowledge is the experience that separates the mind from the soul and the Premies from everybody else. It is, as they say around the Ashrams, the perfect experience, and it can only be had after you receive perfect pre-education from a Mahatma, or "great soul."

The whole Knowledge shot lasts from five to 15 hours or more. It begins with the prospective Premies filling out Knowledge cards which demand, among other things. that they list all financial assets in detail. From there they are led into a darkened room where an altar has been set up and festooned with pictures of the Guru. The future believers arc told to prostrate themselves before the altar and to get themselves prepared for their first experience of God through the senses. The Mahatma-an Indian transplant with shaved head, dressed in long. saffron-colored robes-moves around the room showing everyone how to use the four "Divine" techniques employed to receive this experience.

The first technique is called "Divine Light." It turns out to he an old first-year medical school trick of applying pressure to the optic nerves and seeing flashes of white light. Next, the Premies are instructed on how to hear "Divine Music." again by applying pressure to the optic nerves and ears simultaneously. The Mahatmas explain that at the center of creation are sounds that support all life, and the future Premies are required to hear these sounds on cue. The third technique involves something called "Divine Nectar." According to the Guru, Nectar is a substance inside your body that can keep you going without the aid of food or water. The Mahatmas contend that it's the same stuff that kept Christ alive when he walked around the desert for 40 days. To get it, you have to
learn to curl the tip of your tongue into the back of your throat so that you can catch the Nectar as it drips down from the inside of your head. I tried it. If that's what Nectar is, I've blown away tons of the stuff everytime I've had a bad cold.

The last technique employs breathing exercises, together with hours of meditation on God and soul to have a "Mystical revelation of the premordial vibration that is inside everyone." You have to get yourself high to have it, and when it hits it resembles an amphetamine rush. In fact, as one Premie told me, "being, stoned-out definitely helps." When the Premies finish, they are certified as true believers and are told to empty all the money out of their pockets and put it at the foot of the altar.

If nothing else, slavery simplifies life. Just follow the leader and there won't be any hassles. That's the way it is in Premie life. All Premies have to do is follow two sets of rules to keep everyone happy. There are five written ones: "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. Never delay in attending satsang (an Indian version of old-fashioned testimonial giving). Always have faith in God. Constantly meditate and remember the name. Never have any doubt in your mind." The unwritten rules and even more enlightening: "Stay away from movies and general entertainment (which includes TV, newspapers and magazines), Never swear. Surrender all worldly possessions to the Divine Light Mission. Be celibate." If it weren't for the last two, the whole thing would smell suspiciously like the Boy Scout code of ethics. But rules have a purpose, and in this case it's to cut off the new Premie from all outside inputs so that his loss of freedom won't bother him to the point of dropping out of the movement.

Bullshit? Paul Krassner, editor of the Realist Magazine, thinks so. "Guru
Maharaj Ji is turning young people away from their social responsibility and into personal escape," he says.

But 60,000 Americans don't agree with Krassner's scorn, and they are
joined in the brotherhood by 6 million others in 37 countries who believed enough to trade in old money for new faith and have their lives and brains overhauled in the process.

The question is, how does the Guru attract all these people, and who the hell are they? Well, last November 7, Houston's Astrodome provided the setting for the latest of the Guru's recruiting trips. Advance billing called it "Millennium '73," and went on to describe the coming attraction as "The most significant event in the history of humanity." It was scheduled to go three days and would be the fulfillment of a Maharaj Ji dream which saw all the faithful gathered together under one big dome. While preparations were being made, the Guru and family lodged themselves in the Astroworld's six-bedroom Celestial Suite, with its P. T. Barnum Circus room, its Tarzan Adventure room, and its Sadie Thompson room which features real mosquito netting over the bed. The price was also celestial at $2,500 per day.

Once the $75,000 rental price had been taken care of, the Premies set about turning the Astrodome into a fit place for a visit by "The Lord of the Universe." They built an enormous white plastic stage, lit from inside, and divided it into seven levels. One level was earmarked for the Guru's 20-year-old brother, Bhole Ji, who, dressed in a silver-lame tuxedo reminiscent of Liberace's costuming, spent his time trying to lead the "Blue Aquarius Band." Another level was set aside for a few of the Guru's 2,000 Mahatmas. There was a level for the Holy Family. Maharaj Ji had the top slot, of course. Three hundred feet above the artificial turf the Premies had built a blue velveteen throne that featured a Plexiglas back that would frame the Guru's head like a halo.

On opening night, Maharaj Ji and entourage came marching in, accompanied by Bhole Ji and the Blue Aquarians struggling with the DLM theme song. As the Guru made his way up to the throne, the $2 million dollar Astrodome scoreboard lit up with three rows of WHENs and an equal number of NOWs. Premies went bananas. They danced around clapping their hands and singing and bowing to the Guru until they were blue in the face. Divine Light, Incorporated President Bob Mishler bowed before the throne and presented the Guru with a Golden Swan. They went ape again. As one seasoned Guruwatcher later described it, "You couldn't help being a little 'blissed-out' yourself watching thousands of people freak out of their minds."

But in spite of all the media buildup and the intense campaign mounted by the DLM to bring people into "Soul-Rush, 1973," Houston police estimated the total three-day attendance at 10,000 per day. That's short of what attendance in the Astrodome usually is for an afternoon baseball game, and far short of what it should have been for the "Most important event in the history of mankind." As one writer was later to report in the New York Times, "Maharaj Ji had blundered in a peculiarly American way-he couldn't live up to his advertising."

0f course, not everyone was ready to buy the Guru's message. A young underground newspaper writer by the name of Pat Halley hit Maharaj Ji in the face with a shaving cream pie while the Guru was visiting Detroit to receive a humanitarian award. Halley saw his action ,as a "dramatic demonstration against mysticism." Whatever it was, it almost cost Halley his life because he forgot he was dealing with religious fanatics. One week later two men arrived in Detroit from the Boston Ashram. They conned Halley into letting them into his apartment by telling him that what he had done was "a courageous act." They said they had information that could further discredit the Guru. Halley, sensing a
journalistic coup equal to the piethrowing one, jumped at the opportunity. Once inside, the Guru's goon squad used blackjacks to impart "Knowledge" to the hapless writer, and he was carted off to the hospital more dead than alive. In fact, when the police first received the call, they assigned two homicide detectives to investigate what they believed to he just another D.O.A. For Halley, it was a very long night. He had suffered massive brain damage. It required 55 stitches to close the wounds on his head, including the one made by the doctors to insert a plastic plate. The very first blow of Knowledge had turned the top of his skull into little slivers of bone.

Officially, no formal complaint was ever filed and no warrants were ever issued. But soon after the beating, Ken Kelly, writing in a national magazine, identified the assailants as two important members of the Divine Light Mission, one a Mahatma and the other thought to be the reincarnation of St. Peter. The DLM public relations office at first denied the whole thing. Then they said, "Both men arc being held in protective custody in the Chicago Ashram. We will turn them over to the police department." But in fact, one Mahatma from the Boston Ashram was suddenly transferred to Germany where he is still giving Knowledge. and St. Peter seems to have disappeared. The Detroit Police have filed the case away.

The interesting thing was that none of the Premies blinked an eye when they learned their God resorted to goons when he got upset. Typically, they would smile back with that "blissed-out" grin and say, "Man. I'd do it to you if Guru Maharaj Ji told me to."

Gurus ... Premies . . . Ashrams ... Gurubliss . . it all sounds vague and most Americans view the Guru's game as something about as important to their lives as a country carnival. "Well, it really doesn't hurt anyone," they venture off-handedly.

But the Guru and his company aren't to be taken as lightly as all that. His DLM is a highly organized, multi-national syndicate that's wellheeled and fanatically determined to impose its brand of living on the rest of us by any means possible. Those they can't convert-or who dare to oppose him-get a quick visit from the Gurugoons and are either intimidated or beaten. Those they do convert quickly have their brains washed and take their place in the Guru's growing army of mindless zombies. Right now, it's only a whisper across the land, but this drummer is playing a funny tune.


THE GURU'S GAME
In September of 1972, I was assigned to cover Maharaj Ji's return to Mother India. The Divine Light people had rented 18 jet planes to ferry some 3,500 Premies to India to be on hand for the Guru's touch-down-a kind of modern replay of the old Ark trick. Maharaj Ji's return was to signal the beginning of a five-day celebration at the Ram Lila grounds, a dusty No-Man's Land that separates "Old" Delhi from "New" Delhi.

The flight was long and uneventful--except for one thing. DLM officers came marching down the aisles collecting all the money and valuables the Premies were carrying. Reasons were given. "It's the Perfect Master's will, man," was the one I heard most often. Nonetheless, a number of noses began sniffing the air. Their faith was getting a test from their common sense.

The Guru's faithful ran into problems as soon as the plane had landed in New Delhi. Joan Apter-a super Premie and one of the five original U.S. converts-had her suitcase opened by Customs inspectors. It contained $28,000 in cash, travelers checks and jewelry. When the officials had finished with the rest of the bags, the figure stood at $65,000. Indira Gandhi's government had a stroke. Bringing that kind of wealth into the country-undeclared-was deemed to be smuggling, and a minor international incident was under way. The Customs people confiscated everything in sight, including Maharaj Ji's passport.

Indira Gandhi flew to New Delhi to hold a special session with her ministers to decide whether or not to clap the Perfect Master in jail. The Holy Family, holding a special session of their own, decided that they had had all they wanted of New Delhi. They loaded all the faithful aboard buses and trucked them the 100 miles to Hardwar.

Final destination turned out to be a group of white-stucco buildings, ringed with barbed-wire-topped fence. It was owned by Maharaj Ji and the Holy Family. But by now the first-aid tents were jammed with people who were suffering from high fevers and a racking dysentery. Forced to eat food that was produced on land fertilized with fresh water-buffalo manure, they fell like flies in a Raid commercial. And, since they had no money to buy food, they were helpless to change their diets. A minimovement began to get some money back so that the sicker people could be moved back to New Delhi for proper medical attention (the Premie doctor's idea of treatment was to tell them they needed "More faith, brother, more faith". It was at about that time that the DLM officers made an announcement. "According to Divine will, all money and valuables left for safe keeping with DLM personnel, will be donated to the Divine Treasury." At that point, a lot of people saw the "knowledge." To this day, the Indian government is still holding on to the suitcases, and the Guru must post a substantial bond any time he decides to leave the country.    -EB







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