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"Knowledge works." I always wonder what people mean when they say that. I think there are two possibilities: (1) The sustained practice of the Knowledge techniques have transformed my psyche from ordinary human ignorance to the perpetual bliss of Ultimate Truth Consciousness. or: (2) I feel a peaceful stress release whenever I manage to practice, which isn't all that often really. or: maybe something else?
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Not unlike experiencing a mixture of light acid early in a trip, or half an e, or some good lebanese gold. I have no doubt that if I was making it my prime 24/7 focus as I was as a premie it would go up to equivalent of the last third of an acid trip, or one ecstacy tablet, or smoking lebanese gold all day, as it did then.
I think hazarding a guess it alters my bio-chemistry is a no brainer.
There are other effects too, but they're the easiest ones for me to do an equivalence on.
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Usually 2, but at times I seem to see an intelligence in the light. I've modified M's light technique. I go to sleep with Mack's earplugs from Walgreen's listening to my breath until I go to sleep. It does a great job of stopping my thoughts. I've only known the Ultimate Truth while on LSD and then I can't remember it.
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Hi John, Welcome to the wide open world! I would welcome you to the world of ex's, but that isn't really any kind of cohesive club. That's one reason I like it here -diversity of experiences and opinions. About "K" working without Prem; I see light without doing any techniques, I experience what we used to call "The Name" without doing any techniques and so on. What I have found since leaving Rawat is that my inner experiences have actually grown greatly. I don't go into it here on this forum much, because it is mostly OT. But just to alert any active premies reading this, people that leave Rawat can still have profound mystical experiences without the aid of Rawat! Mine are better than ever. I don't need any kind of intermediary between me and PC (Prime Creator - by what ever name you want to use). And lastly, to you Mr. Malibu Prem, should you ever lower yourself enough to read this forum, WALK THE TALK! I would say walk YOUR talk, but that is mostly the drunk ramblings of an aging spoiled rich kid. You haven't had an original profound idea in decades - if ever! Can't your handlers at least help you with your speeches? They are terrible. All you talk about are cars, planes, watches and your kids. Then you lamely try to connect this with some amorphous incomprehensible talk about Peace that makes absolutely no sense! Look for a mere 100g a year or so, you could get a really good speechwriter to give you some good ideas. Maybe you would get a few new recruits! It would pay for itself. Until, that is, they find this forum. Oh well, Mr. Malibu Prem, what are you gonna do? Just throw another shrimp on your $10,000 gas grill and guzzle another jug of French bottled enlightenment, sit back and enjoy all your wealth. Remember, you can't take it with you. Karen P.S. Does anyone remember hearing Rawat actually talk about his experiences? He NEVER talks about seeing the Great Light, or seeing God face to face within - Slap my face, I forgot, he sees God every time he looks in the mirror. But does he ever really talk about what HE experiences "within inside?"
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Yes, sometimes I see light with no technique and focusing on my breath can stop all thoughts at any time. As I read some books on the subject I realized M was packaging this for his own enrichment. John
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I write computer code for a living. Sometimes I experience a "zone" where answers just appear without effort. I don't have to stop thinking. I just don't have to start. Also, people confuse necessary thought with the endless chatter that goes on in one's head and does nothing. If you saw a beautiful sunset, what thought could add to that?
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Getting in the zone where the chatter, self-doubt etc isn't happening is pretty damned crucial, I also used to find that was the case when painting, especially when doing gestural calligraphic type painting. where a flow of the arm was crucial.
Funnily enough in a discussion about sports performance with someone the other week they mentioned the Inner Game of Tennis being great for them. They were never a premie, but found the book really useful for exactly this territory.
Re a sunset, not sure I agree, yeah for appreciating it on a purely aesthetic angle, maybe fine, but understanding how a sunset works say wouldn't reduce the pleasure, usually I find understanding the mechanics enhances the pleasure, and that could include trying to work just why that specific combination of coloiurs or structures triggers stronger feelings. If you're just talking about being focused, no disagreement with that
But thats understanding, which is vastly different from twitchy reflex thinking that inhibits performance.
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That's amazing, that's just how it happens in me too. All my thoughts just appear without effort but apparently the thought that I should stop thinking thoughts just doesn't appear. I wonder if there is any way I could start thinking that I should stop thinking?
"Also, people confuse necessary thought with the endless chatter that goes on in one's head and does nothing." I rather enjoy my thoughts, I'd call them a charming and enjoyable monologue from a loving and trusted friend if I had to define them but then again it's not really me defining them it's my thoughts defining themselves, isn't it? And then who is this "I" that is somehow separate from them, we're all one.
What thought could I add to a beautiful sunset? Well, "What a beautiful sunset!" would be a good start ... but I'll wait until this evening and then I'll find out what appears.
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Nervousness, shyness, pride, fear etc etc which hasn't affected your performance?
Have you never had your thought processes reduce a creative output?
If not you are an exceedingly rare human being.
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Take a deep breath. Being cool is all about being relaxed and comfortable in any circumstance. Check the link.
Related link: http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Cool
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And I suspect not dissimmilar from the way I tried to live for years, in fact I didn't look unlike that guy for years, but now I see it as riddled with weaknesses as an approach, but hey this probably isn't the forum for discussing this, and it's something I've thought a fair bit about.
I much prefer this generations definition of cool, which has some similarities to the def above, but I think is way classier.
Of course it's not a bad version of cool, hell it's the def of most youngsters in the new folk/weird folk/twisted folk set, most sporting beards too in an anti capitalist way, so quite fashionable too  , I've probably just been living in London for too long hanging around with new media designers and got a bit too surface shallow
Modified by hamzen at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 04:22:40
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I much prefer this generations definition of cool, which has some similarities to the def above, but I think is way classier.
I'd love to hear your def. Mine comes down to:
1. Being independent - You decide what you want to do, you don't ask others what they think, you decide yourself. You aren't looking to others for attention and approval. You're doing your own thing and enjoying whatever happens.
2. Being indifferent - An indifferent person just goes about life and takes things as they come. He doesn’t give a shit. He is indifferent to the outcome of whatever situation he is in. He will be OK with whatever happens.
3. Being funny - If you're funny, it makes people FEEL GOOD inside. They laugh, and it triggers positive feelings. Most of the "coolest" guys I know are wickedly funny.
4. Being socially well adjusted – You know how to relate very well to other people and you make others feel comfortable around you.
5. And doing all this without Rawat!
Modified by Steve at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 09:22:29
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although you might be including that in humour.
Nobody trusts anybody who can't take the piss out of themselves nowadays, and can't take being ribbed, almost savagely so at times by close mates, with a lot of love and affection too. Primary reason why Rawat will never be cool to this generation.
I can't remember a single time over all the years where he took the piss out of himself.
Being self critical is pretty key to that process too, and can't ever remember him doing that ever either.
So I think he will find very few vulnerable youngsters who don't have that stuff ingrained in them now, very few really naive and vulnerable kids about nowadays compared to our generation, assuming you're the same age, and they are soooo unlikely to trust someone who asks for so much trust who can't do that.
If he could he'd be really dangerous, except it would also undermine his whole raisdon d'etre.
Could go into more, time pressures today though.
And secondly, if not first I'd put a sense of style, and style in it's deepest meaning, not the shallow way I uswed to judge style.
And again he fails miserably on that one too.
And thats one of the reasons I think, that being cool is so crucial now, it sorts out the wheat from the chaff, and Rawat comes out as transparently chaff just on those two key points.
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well I like to think I perform as well as I do on the day rather than call it underperforming  I can just about manage to think of those times when things are going swimmingly as something to look forward to as going to happen again and again with more certainty each time as I spend inordinate amounts of time paddling out through the surf of my uncertainties and learning my craft.
Wasn't it Nik who said life is a succession of failures with the odd success? - I remember finding that very reassuring at the time - a nice solid footing.
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in general and one I can relate to, but I think over the years taking such an approach has meant me taking easy routes too often and missing opportunities because of that.
And in a sporting context, taking up baseball at 55 as I have, when you're doing your utmost to squeeze everything into it, and out of it, as you can, with an awareness that you don't have 20 years to perfect your craft, and you want to challenge age preconceptions amongst those you're playing with, only applicable in moments of addled neurosis Not an easy balance, since too much self pressure will also inhibit performance, but just staerting to find the balance after 5 months that seems right for me.
Another phrase comes to mind, about aiming for the stars you're more likely to reach the moon
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I've just taken up golf which is like a litmus test for cool - air swings are distinctly not cool are they
Self pressure goodness what is that, never heard of it......ha ha. The story of my life is punctuated by moments when I look at the sky and fill my lungs as I realise I've just jumped in the deep end again and it's sink or learn how to swim...
Having taught hundreds of children to swim I know there's a bit of sinking involved - lift your head and your legs will sink is useful for standing up in shallow water or getting some air and your bearings in deep water but not good for forward progress.
A good teacher allows all that learning and experimentation to take place by acting as a bottom line safety net, they know you're looking out for them. And it's usually not too long before they're having fun.
Hence my current motto - when in doubt err on the side of fun....now is that cool or what!
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Most of the time, although a bit difficult in the pressure cooker of baseball, team mates are quite demanding when we've got a championship and promotion at stake, although our main coach has done his best to take that pressure off, by lowering expectations, but that's mostly batting, where little is expected. Fielding is a different matter, and unlike cricket the fielding demands and standards are unbelievably high.
Re fun, in every other area of my life, couldn't agree more, too much so I think at times
Hey was it you that posted the stain glass window pic the other week,. do you have any more online?
If so, and you don't fancy posting it here, maybe ask John to pass my e-mail addy, since we can't send pm's here, hope he wouldn't mind.
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The team aspect in baseball adds another dimension , fortunately my golfing companions are more interested in the sunset than how long it takes to get around the paddock.
Why I don't have a website even though I want one...
I'm a bit photographically challenged, and just when I'd got somewhere I installed an update that terminated the relationship between camera and computer - getting used to another camera now. Windows aren't easy to photograph, I was lucky with that pic - there was thick white cloud cover the morning I posted it.
And then you've got to remember to take the camera of course... 
So no more pics online but I do have some not particularly good scanned ones I could email, .....okay, tis but a geometric, but this is what the stairwell looks like this morning..
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I've passed the message to John.
Re website, REALLY easy to sort out a simple one for you, and hosting with someone like supanames, REALLY cheap.
Heres to perfecting our swings, re golf and baseball
Modified by hamzen at Sun, Jun 10, 2007, 03:01:51
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Thanks. Those windows are so beautiful!Â
I took up rollerblading a few years ago at the age of 50. It's great to tell my young piano students my stories of needing to practice...and what happens when I don't!
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I still get a hit from all the colours splashing around
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Nervousness, shyness, pride, fear etc are not thoughts or thought processes but are usually considered emotions. Mind you, I'm a great admirer off Antonio D'Amasio's ideas (or truths to me) so I see everything inextricably connected.
Many people consider my performance has maintained a nadir that has been going on for so long that nothing I do can any longer be considered underperformance. It's a constant low and so I don't think I've ever had a creative output but if I had I certainly aren't qualified to judge it as being creative.
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Couldn't agree more, but I find the emotion comes first, very quickly followed by thoughts that reflect those emotions, and the thoughts are the surface ripples that cut through the concentration. Theres been some classic ones in my first baseball season this year, during a no hitter sunday for instance, "god I hope a ripping line drive doesn't come to me", this was after the pitcher had caught an absolutely cracking hit, and in that moment I have a thought like that I know my body prep, positional awareness, exactly what the plays are, is either gone, or I'm way unprepared.
Can also think back to my painting days when I did a lot of almost calligraphic type gestural zen paintings, where an absolute requirement is no conscious input or else it comes out mannered, predictable, dull, lacking fliow etc etc, exactly the kind of stuff that jdaines is talking about I think, whereas when in the zone it has flow, power, embodiespure physicality with "spirit" for want of a better word.
Re your last paragraph, ha ha, Ocker at his best, but too familiar as well in terms of other peoples judgements re my life, ce'st la vie 
Modified by hamzen at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 04:44:58
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I used to be a musician. And people would talk to me while I was playing. Thinking about sunsets is like talking to musicians. Distracting from the main event and nowhere near as beautiful
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While some thoughts can be enjoyable, think of driving your car while your kids are fighting. Your kids are your thoughts and your brain could do a better job of driving without the chatter
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we could work back from there.
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Death, taxes and noisy children are inevitable
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'After reading the many posts re: Maharaji's life style and behavior, I can no longer contribute to his cause.'
And if 'Knowledge' works, why doesn't it work for the master of it himself?
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Hi John, I hope you get the local contacts that you are looking for. As for 'Knowledge working' - rejecting Prem does not, and in my view should not, require an outright rejection of our own experiences. What rejecting Rawat may allow however is a reappraisal of the experiences that we may have had, and a consequent capacity to extend the breadth and scope of our own experience, be that meditational or any other. Good luck with where ever 'expremieism' takes you. Nik
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Please be careful deconstructing what you call 'knowledge' !
Your feelings - that's one thing.
Your beliefs - that's another thing.
What used o make the trick for you (usually a mixture of various things you like).
The relationships you had in the group
etc etc
Try to sort things out: it's not that simple, and usually quite painful.
Welcome to the club, good luck, and best wishes !!
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I just practice the techniques. It's been several years since I went to a meeting or an event. The techniques continue to work for me, but the experience seems to come without any aid from M. I haven't had any premie friends in 20 years. Too many people have commented on his depraved life style for me to continue to support his work. Ultimately, that will be his main problem; the continued financial income to pay for his lavish life style. I do believe he has some kind of talent. Too bad he didn't use it for the benefit of the human race.
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... good to see your posts arriving here John by the way ...
I'm still thinking ...
He certainly, in my view, was not talented in his chosen role.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Jun 05, 2007, 16:58:08
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He made a lot of money fooling people. That's a talent.
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but wasn't it all handed to him on a plate?
Modified by Lp at Wed, Jun 06, 2007, 10:29:46
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Yeah, but he was sure passing that plate around a lot 
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Everytime he comes up with a new propagation drive, having known many of the old-time in-crowd, I can't help seeing the mental workings of the people around him stamped on it, rather than his. There is hardly anything to recognise as his way of thinking, though each scheme is only marketable back to premies as his brainchild. His insatiable material appetite and his need to be always the one and only top dog are ever present of course.
His way of clutching at straws is more recognisably his own.
A tendency to keep jumping from one failed idea to another, each one introduced with the divine assurance that this really is the one that is going to work, is recognisably one of his contributions.
It still appears to me that timing played the major part in his success. His family did the ground work. The 60's paved the way. The West did the rest.
He still does quite a scarey job of keeping some people thinking he is god, I must admit. Though he drops the plate sometimes.
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 09:03:39
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He must drop the plate a lot if less than 10% of people that receive K are actually active pwks. Is it around 2%? Pretty piss poor job if you ask me.
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>I can't help seeing the mental workings of the people around him stamped on it, rather than his.< That is still one of the, as yet, untold stories of Rawatism. And it is such a strange story - premies have accepted all sorts of garbage over the years on the grounds that Maharaji knows best, but so much of the nonsense that has been foisted upon them has come straight out of the machinations and ego tripping of the inner circle. It completely gives the lie to the excuses as to why there is no 'member' power or 'student representation'. The inner circle would have perfomed much better as advisers to the teacher if they had had to respond to the members, instead of being able to hide behind the mantra "its what Maharaji wants". Premies didn't just give themselves up to Rawat, they made themselves subservient to a cult machine. I'm sure that was never envisaged as a path to liberation, even by the most ardent bhaktiist. Nik
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With the few long term adherents that I have known and revisited at times, I gained the impression that none was happy nor felt they could escape.
But in my own short, concentrated time I saw enough. Those faithful advisors who's brains are constantly picked for new ideas, will gain no reward for any idea that works. That would be the master's perfect plan unfolding.
But they would pay dearly in loss of confidence for every failure, as he would never stop reminding them nor attaching their name to the incident, to make it clear that it was not his idea. It is an exhausting and desolate situation, which they dare not change.
His personal lack of regard for others was always apparent even when young. It is astonishing that it was possible within the same day to overlook such slips and to continue with the job of trying to see god, not so much within, as in him.
A thankless job, though his core faithful, secretive, few, nowadays, are at least salaried for going through the motions.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Jun 07, 2007, 16:54:41
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A tendency to keep jumping from one failed idea to another, each one introduced with the divine assurance that this really is the one that is going to work, is recognisably one of his contributions. At least Ralph lost his own money. With Rawat, it's part and parcel of extreme grandiosity, never learning from his mistakes, taking risks with other people's money all of his life, like putting up a big tent in the middle of a beautiful piece of land to hide the behavior of one's followers. What's he gonna do? Put energy-consuming air condioning in it? At whose cost? Is there anyone willing to stand up and tell him it's a bad (and dumb) idea?
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 08:47:53
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is that the real reason he wants the tent is to keep the bugs out. And we'll know the end is nigh when the entry way is through a cattle dipping station.
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But narrow escapes from marquees in India and some of the satsang stories that were told of old add a macabre twist to my big tent memories.
One of my most intents memories as a boy I heard once on the radio:
"Down in the jungle living in a tent
Better than a prefab: no rent."
I don't know who was responsible.
PS.
Ah but google does: BBC - Scotland on Film - Forum Charlie Chester's Stand Easy: 1946!
I was 2!
Strange coincidence:- mentioned in the 3rd post: Jack Train went to my school: Sutton High; I remember teachers often saying to me:
"This school has only produced one successful comedian: Jack Train; it's not very good odds as a career choice."
Modified by Lp at Fri, Jun 08, 2007, 15:43:24
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