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Thanks for putting that up Nik, the following, I believe, is the central element of the ideology of the Rawat cult: Here we are on the face of this earth, and we and trying to conquer the grand illusion. The maya. It will go on. It will be there as a trap for other ones far after you have gone. The only way for Rawat to sell his cult and to keep people believing in something that doesn't work, is to have the devil element that so many religions also use. Why nobody in the cult, or before getting involved questions this ideology, this idea that there is this evil mind, and all this illusion, the source of which Rawat never explains, is kind of astounding. Why is this ridiculous idea so easily accepted? Why do people want to believe there is an evil mind inside of them, the world is an illusion and there is this big "trap" in life such that one is led to believe things are real when they are not? Really, if one does not accept this belief system, Rawat and knowledge are useless, except, I guess, you could use meditation as a relaxation technique, although, personally, I think strenuous exercise is a lot better for that.
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I agree that strenuous exercise is a better relaxation technique then meditation. I knew one premie very well who would never go for a swim at the beach before her morning hour's meditation because she would be relaxed and she would fall asleep trying to meditate. Does any premie actually succeed at meditation?
There is a show on TV over here called the Biggest Loser. While I've never watched any of these "reality TV" thingies this would be the perfect vehicle for Prem Rawat to show the world the power of this Knowledge. It's a about fat people sweating, exercising and presumably baring their souls ala Oprey. Imagine if a realised soul like Maharajee appeared and naturally he woud win the big prize - World Peace through Spreading This Knowledge!
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Every one else is striving but me..well I'm just so goddam chilled it hurts. And how did I get so cool? Well, when you follow the leadership of Prem Rawat, I guess things just sorta fall into place for you,y'know. The Lord looks after his own.
Ouch! There is such a poverty of insight here, combined with a complacency that is suffocating to hear. How the f... do those four techniques and Rawats blarney compensate for the massive brainlessness and lack of individual self reflection expressed here?
Premies take the privileged high ground, they assume it so patronisingly. Why? for the sole reason that they obey their master who tells them they deserve it. They sleep so peacefully, so authoritatively.
Love
bryn
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It is interesting to read the quotes taken from Rawat's speeches. I don't know if it is an "authorised" site or if Rawat has any say in what gets posted but it certainly appears as if it is especially as I recognise some of the names of the writers and they appear to have access to all Rawatian resources.
If these quotes are a true indication then Rawat has been in a sort of joyous triumphalist mood for quite a while in his speeches. What possible reason would someone have to go on and on about the breath, which is of course the most notable and recognisable physical bedrock of our being alive, unless of course the speaker had some sort of connection with that breath or some secret information about it?
Well it's no secret to us that Rawat secretly claims to be the source of that power the "breathes each person" - no matter how nonsensical that idea is - and that publicly he claims to be able to reveal the source of life and inner peace which is obviously related to breathing. And yet we know that the technique was as simple and stupid as concentrating on your breath and I don't even know if remembering to remember and having gratitude means doing 3rd technique as much as possible.
Can some recent premie explain this to me, assuming it is actually obvious what it is about?
Modified by ocker at Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 20:21:02
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Is about as authorized as it gets. It's Michael Wood's blog, and Daya Rawat is listed as contributor. That's about as inner circle cult as it gets. But, as with all things Rawat, it's as authorized as it is plausibly deniable as being authorized by Rawat.
Modified by Cynthia at Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 09:18:42
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Michael Wood is a new name to me. "Inner circle cult as it gets" lovely phrase. So how does ICCAIG relate to PAM? Are the seven circles of PAMMIENESS?
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Circle 1(and closest to the lotus feet ).......The Dog Circle 2 His Mistress (presuming he still has one) Circle 3 Rich VIP Donors Circle 4 His Kids,Kids in law,Grand kids or whatever he's got now,Raja Ji and any other family who can still put up with him. Circle 5 His cooks. Circle 6 His personal assistants and general bottlewashers. Circle 7 Assorted Spokespeople.Also sympathetic Lawyers and Bankers, and anyone else who might elevate his status or possibly come in handy. Any truly devoted premies (especially if they are poor) way, way down the list......although they might be plucked out of obscurity and flattered with attention from the Master if they are sufficiently well known on the grapevine or liked by his daughters, and the word of the Master's true humble goodness might get around their friends and the premie "in" crowd. etc (Actually I just loved Ocker's " 7 circles of pammieness" expression and wanted to see it as a "header" on the forum !) 
Modified by lexy at Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 12:32:24
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Oh jeeze, Lexi, you put his kids 4th. Great list.
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>And yet we know that the technique was as simple
and
> stupid as concentrating on your breath and I don't even
> know if
remembering to remember and having gratitude
> means doing 3rd technique
as much as possible.
>Can some recent premie explain this to me, assuming it is
>actually obvious what it is about?
My understanding is that devotion is what makes
meditation work. Otherwise it is just a technique,
as you say.
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"My understanding is that devotion is what makes
meditation work. Otherwise it is just a technique,
as you say"The how do you account for the many people who do the same techniques who are either ex-premies or learned the techniques from other organisations/gurus etc, or just read them?
(Certainly not people in any way devoted to Rawat).
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"My understanding is that devotion is what makes
meditation work. Otherwise it is just a technique,
as you say" Then
how do you account for the many people who do the same techniques who
are either ex-premies or learned the techniques from other
organisations/gurus etc, or just read them?
(Certainly not people in any way devoted to Rawat).
I see a distinction here.
Is it possible, that while (I would be among the first to agree devotion to the guru really does nothing to make the techniques work. It serves the guru's aims well. Whether the knowledge "works" inwardly or not, devotion "works" to render followers hopeless yaysayers and to suspend their judgement and "spirit" of enquiry.
That is: while devotion may only give the initiate the will to enter into the self induced illusion that meditation is working: it still works satisfactorily for the guru and his sworn servants, who get the numerical and material returns they wanted; regardless of the actual inner development or lack of same in the devotee.
In short, so long as the effect: the external forms of devotion are in place, I doubt the guru cares about the quality of their inner experiences, or whether they be real or illusory.
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Sat, Apr 28, 2007, 03:57:21
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"In short, so long as the effect: the external forms of devotion are in place, I doubt the guru cares about their inner experiences, or whether they be real or illusory."I couldn't agree more.
In my reply to Sean I was addressing the cognitive dissonence of devotees in general( where the subtext is 'my guru is the true guru'). When I used to do propagation, I was always really challenged when I'd meet others who praticed the same techiniques with the same results in terms of 'inner experiences'(not the 'oh I saw maharaji/saibaba/jesus etc in the light experiences).
I think many 'sincere seeks of truth' stop at Bhaktiism because it is a comfortable plateau, just as religion usually is. The sin of any 'master' is the association of belief to any experience the acolyte is having. It is abuse of trust by hijacking of the will, rape of the soul.
All the best,
Jethro
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Hi Jethro,
sorry so late in response, all the best to you.
It seems 'bhakti' can be used as a sort of filler, in the gaps between actual experiences, if any. The less "knowledge type" experiences, the more the need to depend upon this idea of an invisible tissue of love between the guru and chela.
Maturity on the disciplic path is often a decline of values, a gradual corruption of principles. As more and more dependence upon the guru rather than one's own efforts to resolve one's questions about existence or reality develops, the more the disciple's code of ethics becomes no more than that of the 'master'. It is far too late when it is discovered that he has none.
Once a mind has adopted the distorted picture of the universe offered by the mind of Mr. Rawat, it has entered into a spiral with no roads provided for return.
While there is no direction to this drifting, spiralling flight of the devotee's entity, it is in the general direction of "Away from existence and reality".
Good wishes. Lp
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Indeed, the mind of the bhakti is just an extention of the master's.
This is what the bhakti wants since the master has told them it is the highest state to 'merged' with the master. (This the same as a Fundamentalist Christian (or other) using their Book as proof. It is recursive. They become very anal.)
After adopting these beliefs they do not seek any real 'truth' and cease searching/questioning. They just want to be a channel. (Remember songs like "please let me know that it's you(maharaj) coming thru"?) . "While there is no direction to this drifting, spiralling flight of the devotee's entity, it is in the general direction of "Away from existence and reality""
Core blimey mate ) I wish I could write as eloquently as you do. All the best, Jethro
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I admit that I probably have cognitive dissonance on a
number of issues. It does not seem that way to me, but
it wouldn't be real dissonance if I could see it, right?
However, in this case, I only meant to say that I think
meditation requires devotion in order to work. I did not
mean to say that knowledge is the only form of meditation
or that only devotion to Maharaji works. I do think
meditation, in general, is good for people, although maybe
not for everyone.
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Actually I said it was a simple and stupid technique. And I think the results certainly prove that. Many of the premies have been meditation for over 30 years and yet they show no enlightenment, no liberation and no realisation. If they did, there would be thousands of people clamouring for these meditation techniques.
So does breath concentration meditation only work if you are devoted to Prem Rawat, Maharaji, or will it work if you are devoted to the Maharishi or to Mahatma Gandhi or to Guru Maharaj Ji Neem Karoli or to Sathya Sai Baba?
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>My understanding is that devotion is what makes
meditation work. Otherwise it is just a technique,
as you say.<
In which case why does Rawat not make it explicit that devotion is a requirement ? If all that he's doing now is pushing the four techniques via The Keys without any reference to devotion, either he is selling his 'students' short, or he is being duplicitous. N
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>In which case why does Rawat not make it explicit that
>devotion is a requirement ?
I don't know. I wish he would.
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"In which case why does Rawat not make it explicit that
>devotion is a requirement ?" "I don't know. I wish he would." He certainly used to ....well as far as I remember from about 1980 until the end of the "Divine" era .......( though not much before)..... " and I'm asking Please Please Please Teach Me Devotion" was the song ( see link). When he started going on about "DEVOTION" I was intrigued.....at last !...I thought....that's what I hadn't understood....that I had to "learn" devotion and that HE was going to "teach" me. So THAT'S why I hadn't "REALISED" the sacred knowledge! So that load of b******s strung me along for another few years.
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/gallery/lyrics/lyrics.html#tmd
Modified by lexy at Sun, Apr 29, 2007, 11:46:56
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If devotion is the requisite and you've got devotion, why bother with meditation? But what about other forms of meditation and other gurus? Will other followers using other technqiues in their meditaiton require devotion to their gurus? Or does it require devotion to Prem Rawat no matter what form of meditation you do?
And what about the millions of Indian who practise the meditation techniques as taught by Prem Rawat's father and who are devoted to Shri Satpal Rawat? Prem's elder brother. What happens to those people who use the meditation techniques taught by Mahatamas Whoeverananda who haven't learnt about the changes in techniques? What happened to you between the time Prem Rawat changed the techniques and you were taught the new techniques? Did it all stop working for a while?
Jesus, when you think about this situation it certainly brings countless questions to mind.
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My understanding is that devotion is what makes
meditation work. Otherwise it is just a technique,
as you say. That's exactly what my understanding used to be too, Sean. Does meditation work for you?
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Yes, I think so, although not in the ways I originally expected
(realizing knowledge, etc).
Modified by sean at Sat, Apr 28, 2007, 22:21:18
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My wife thinks that I am the hottest man in Austin.
And I learned many years ago those magic words
that will maintain and preserve a marriage through
all kinds of life events:
"Yes dear, I'm sorry, you were right and I was wrong."
Seriously though, I can predict precisely what she would
say about this discussion, which is why are you talking
about me on the internet? So I have nothing further
to say about this particular subject.
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Well Sean that didn't stop you talking about your wife and daughter's reactions a few months back so I will take that as a "of course not"! If she did think it works 4 u, she, your friends and family, your work-colleagues and even near-total strangers would be "feeling the vibe" and Prem Rawat would be talking about his guy in Austin who has brought thousands of new people to video events and who have now been taught the techniques of Knowledge and have turned Austin, Texas into the Propagation Capital of the World!
If it worked for anyone then there would be hundreds of millions of PWKs by now after 30 years of meditation and propagation.
There's a Paul Simon song Love Me Like a Rock with a refrain that almost goes "Now who, who do you think you're fooling". Sean, you, like all premies, is fooling very, very no-one or very, very few.
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Hi Sean, I'm curious about what you've learned in the past year or so, going back, seeing Maharaji recently, etc. I did the same thing in 1998 or so after several years away and there weren't many premies left at all, so there wasn't the feeling of community at all, no satsang, etc. What's it been like for you?
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Apr 30, 2007, 09:02:00
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Hi Cynthia,
It was nice to see Maharaji again and to hear him speak.
I saw only a few old friends, but the vibe was very familiar
and very welcome. No urgency to fly off to the next meeting
though; once a year or so is fine. I bought some t-shirts for
the kids
I miss the satsang too.
I guess if I learned anything, it's that I have changed over
the years. The premie of 30+ years ago was a better
person, I think. But the person of today has a family
he loves, who tolerates funny old vegetarian Dad who
grills steaks on weekends for everyone but himself.
Sean
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exactly right It 'works' based on 'belief' just as all religious faith. The belief provides the conceptual context with which to paint simple quiet silence with some or other significance. It is just rather bad luck that a few DVDs can put you in the terribly sad position of believing that it is ' that' place revealed to you by 'Mr Rawat'. ..or some other religion ...It isn't and ..look around you... he isn't there. Breath and sound 'worked' and still work without any connection to Rawat. Those techniques long predate and far outflank him and his clan. I sometimes feel quiet and stillness within me just as I ever did ...and 'gratitude' too ...but why to whom or what ..it is a mystery. best Tim
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He needs a new large sombrero to fit his growing "intelligent" brain and while he tries it on, I wish he can slip into another galaxy by his own grace; maybe somewhere else, out there, other beings may receive his message and like it.
http://heritage.stsci.edu/2003/28/big.html
I love you too Prem.
Related link: Sombrero for Rawat
Modified by Axis at Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 23:48:40
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