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Or the backyard septic tank or life, or how about the disgusting garbage bin of life? What a pile of drivel. How can anyone listen to that? And of course, we should model our lives on what makes animals happy, and Rawat knows whether a cow is "happy" from his personal experiences with cows. And it turns out that Rawat knows that a cow is happy when a cow is a cow, although what else a cow can be, besides a cow, he doesn't say. A sirloin steak maybe? Is there anybody else on the planet saying anything more empty than Rawat's blatherings? Oh, yeah, all those other cult leaders.
Modified by Joe at Mon, Apr 23, 2007, 18:00:50
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This is drivel. In fact, Rawat's speeches are the perfect example of drivel. By drivel, I mean saying a lot without really saying anything at all. Rawat is truly a master at it. It is his forte, his greatest talent. Here is the dictionary definition of drivel: | Noun | 1. | drivel - a worthless message chickenshit - a false statement that is considered to indicate timidity or fear pap, pablum - worthless or oversimplified ideas | | 2. | drivel - saliva spilling from the mouth saliva, spittle, spit - a clear liquid secreted into the mouth by the salivary glands and mucous glands of the mouth; moistens the mouth and starts the digestion of starches | | Verb | 1. | drivel - let saliva drivel from the mouth; "The baby drooled" salivate - produce saliva; "We salivated when he described the great meal" |
I think the connection to slobber is particularly appropo to Rawat. But... Whereas most people who are exposed to Rawat's talks will only hear the tripe and not be able to understand the appeal he has for his followers, some people will get it - they will appreciate the underlying "deep" message that Rawat teaches, the core belief system behind all the applesauce, which is as follows: The Infinite is within. But it is hidden because you are separated from the Infinite by your own finite mind. Fulfillment and supreme bliss is found only by going beyond the mind and experiencing the secret inner experience of the Infinite. Only then will the human being be happy! I have paraphrased the Rawat philosophy. But here it is in his own words from this year: As long as you are alive, the true heaven is also within you. Within each heart lies that infinite. And glory be it to that heart that recognizes the infinite within. Experience this in your life. Experience it and understand that thing in your life. People say, “I don’t need a teacher. I don’t need a Master.” You don’t need a teacher? Everyone has a Master from before. Who have you made your Master? Your mind is your master. That’s what you listen to. ____ So Rawat's message is not all simple, pleasant sounding nonsense. Everything that sounds relatively innocuous is actually promoting a very harmful core belief system, namely that ordinary human consciousness is a trap of unhappiness that must be escaped in favor of a direct inner transcendence of the finite into the Infinite. When a person takes on this belief system and actually lives the life-style designed to attain enlightnment, he is actually harming himself and the people in his life. He is pursuing an idealised mirage that is anti-human. Rawat himself appears to be a victim of this belief system. Because he is the guru and the beneficiary of so many outlandish perks, he is content and he seems to think that the philosophy he goes around teaching is actually helpful to people. Unfortunately, he is mistaken. Either that, or he knows he is a fraud and just doesn't care. In the final analysis, Rawat's talks cannot be considered pure drivel, because they are not actually empty; they promote a philosophy and a life-style that is futile at best, and potentially quite harmful.
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Very true, Will. But I do find that a little humor and common sense cuts through the drivel very quickly. It's just that personal insecurity and the "emperor's new clothes" phenomenon makes that difficult for some people. But you are very correct that the fact that there is no there, there, in Rawat's rambles, does not entirely eliminate the possibility that somebody will want badly enough to believe that there is something profound there, and he or she is so insecure and fearful that they will discount their own common sense and instead hope that "knowledge" is the "pill" that will finally eliminate the uncertainty of life. But the response to that is "embrace the uncertainty of life!" Don't fear it, and don't believe for one minute that there is some kind of evil force inside of you that is causing unhappiness -- that your own mind is evil and has to be controlled by "knowledge." That is total bullshit and a very destructive thing to believe. I know, I was indoctrinated for years in Rawat's cult to believe it. It is total bullshit.
Modified by Joe at Tue, Apr 24, 2007, 10:37:08
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Yes very true...and folksy, inarticulate and innacurate can be construed as charming, and taken as evidence of speaking 'straight from the heart'. And indeed.. having so lowered the listener's guard ..and won some trust... he invariably shifts style to significant/ portentous in order to deliver his loaded message in language more rehearsed. He could certainly never be accused of lacking an agenda! If I have learned nothing else from Rawat it is simply to be more watchful when according a stranger the 'benefit of the doubt'. ... But the drivel does seem pretty obviously funny now ... and the more so in contrast to the pomp and pretence of his assumed 'mastership'. anyway.. best Tim
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Hi Will, I agree with your analysis above, Rawat`s talks are not actually empty. He is doing much the same as all the other preachers/teachers/prophets/priests/buddhas/krishnas/muhammads/christs…etc. etc. who have ever sought to lead humanity from the suffering that appears to be our overwhelming condition... to whatever. Rawat is just doing it very badly, and in his own sweet way because he gets away with it and enjoys the perks. It is all he has ever known to do and he may well be a victim of his own belief system. He is, however, with masterful drivel still tapping into a fundamental gap in the human understanding of consciousness that has dogged the wise and the foolish since before time began, and will, no doubt, continue till time runs out. He knows this much. I`ve never understood how anyone can live a life without making an inquiry into the deeper questions of transcendence at some point. That may be because I was well and truly conditioned to think and feel that way. It may be the result of a particular personality disorder. Who knows? Unfortunately when we do make such an inquiry we are vulnerable to the fraudsters and the seriously deluded until we finally see the futility and potential harm of all of them. It can be a tough road. Nevertheless, the human heart is a mysterious thing and curiosity is the natural condition of our mind.  Mila
Modified by Milarepa at Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 04:17:52
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preachers/teachers/prophets/priests/buddhas/krishnas/muhammads/christs…etc. etc. you made me laugh
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>with masterful drivel still tapping into a fundamental gap in the human understanding of consciousness that has dogged the wise and the foolish since before time began, and will, no doubt, continue till time runs out< While the substance of consciousness (where it happens, what makes it happen etc) may continue to be beyond direct analysis for decades to come, great strides have been made in understanding how humans use consciousness. The 'drivel gap' has shrunk considerably since Rawat began his drivel driven career. It is not a lack of knowledge (sic) that allows the drivel sellers to prosper but rather the still widespread adherence to mythologies (both personal and social) which offer reassuring psychological defences against the challenges that scientific and logic driven philosphical enquiry provide to both the drivel and the mythologies. N
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I also loved Drivelreaper's post.
I think it is to a certain degree lack of knowledge that is allowing the drivel sellers to proliferate and a growth in freedom and wealth. I mean how many people actually know about the great strides in understanding consciousness? And if I was to mention the people whose writings and research have influenced me in this direction would the be the same as yours?
Now that people have access to all the popular religion that they want and with no fear of repression or social calamity they're taking advantage of it and if they are interested in spirituality (or not) and the further reaches of science they'll probably read Gary Zukav or Deepak Chopra or someone similar. Times are changing but I doubt we'll live long enough to see a spirituality/religion free paradigm be the dominant one that humans naturally grow in.
As Milarepa said Rawat is just doing the same old, same old but he's doing it very badly which is both very good as few people are attracted and interesting as to how premies can continue to accept this level of drivel. It's not as if premies are all super, super stupid either which is part of what keepsme interested in the show. If he was really, really good at drivelling and really, really charismatic and loving and open and exciting then the quesiton would be why he has failed so miserably but now the question is why doesn't everyone who was initially attracted see what a hopeless failure he has been and is?
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>it is to a certain degree lack of knowledge that is allowing the drivel sellers to proliferate< Yes of course this is true in the sense that individuals are lacking in understanding of or lack access to scientific and academic debate. I was responding to what I took to be Milarepa's more general assertion that there was a critical lack of 'human' knowledge per se. However I still think it is relevant that individuals choose to be 'informed' by the Zukavs and Chopras, as it is precisely these authors who offer reassuring psychological defences against the challenges that scientific and logic driven philosphical enquiry provide. And it is the 'reassuring psychological defences' that Rawat offers that keeps otherwise intelligent people in thrall to his inanity. It is a similar process that keeps otherwise hard headed businesses in thrall to absurd to management consulting programmes - security blankets for CEOs. For example: http://gsep.pepperdine.edu/alumni/colleaguemagazine/winter2005/globalreach.htm Psychology alumnus Valerio Pascotto has an office in Malibu, but he spends 50 percent of his time in Australia, India, Japan, and Europe. Pascotto, who was born and raised in Rome, is an organizational consultant and cofounder of IGEOS, a consultancy for major business clients like IBM, Goldman Sachs, and AT&T. In three- and five-day workshops, Pascotto and his cofounder, Tim Gallwey—Harvard alumni and producer of the best selling Inner Game book series—work with corporate employees to assess and rebuild team dynamics. As a graduate student, Pascotto (M.A. ’87, Psy.D. ’91) was already building a consulting career. While working on his doctorate in clinical psychology, he started to work for David L. Roth Associates, running management and team-building workshops and later becoming certified as a Birkman consultant Pascotto also saw psychotherapy clients, but when he started his own company, Effective Organizational Systems, in 1996, he devoted himself entirely to consulting work. Since then, he has conducted seminars and coached individuals in management positions on group integration, team building, and leadership. In their workshops, Pascotto and Gallwey try to strip team members of what they call, "expertise and positional authority" by assigning simple tasks that a child could do. With the playing field level, Pascotto says, "you can see the fundamental dynamics and behaviors. You see what is really at work." One of the major forces at work in groups, according to Pascotto, is that people get stuck in patterns and begin to act out of habit, rather than intention. "They are not aware of their behaviors and the impact they have. We want people to be able to make a conscious choice about how to act." He says one of the most common habits people develop in the workplace is the tendency to "make stuff up" when assigned an ambiguous task. "People feel uncomfortable when they are in unknown territory," says Pascotto. "If they don’t know how to do something, they will make something up and sell it as truth, rather than explore the unknown." Team members also tend to say, "yes" out of habit, rather than out of agreement or a genuine commitment to follow through on a task. “Saying ‘yes’ to something automatically gets people into trouble," says Pascotto. "The person agrees in the moment, but actually has no intention to follow through." Pascotto’s wife, who is an accomplished painter, will join him on international projects if they are long term. "Otherwise, we use iSight (a Mac-based video system) to teleconference every day," says Pascotto. "And she holds down the fort while I am away."
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I see your point though I still don't see any Damasios or Dennetts or Pinkers appearing on Oprah any time soon so the popular culture doesn't have access to the information.
I was once naive enough to think that hard-headed businessmen wouldn't be taken in by watered down New Age platitudes. It is good to hear that Pascotto'swife is an accomplished painter though that seems completely irrelevant. Quite possibly my favourite part of the Passages video is Ms Pascotto talking about meditation, truthfully and openly, something premies rarely if ever do even privately.
"When I first received Knowledge I was told that I needed to practise an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening
and it seemed so unrealistic. I would sit down to practise and after 20 minutes I was just .. that's about all I could do
and I didn't try hard enough you know I just kinda let it slide..."
Even some of his closest devotees such as Ms Linda Pascotto, President of the Prem Rawat Foundation
had been unable to practise meditation properly, if at all, no matter how much inspiration Prem Rawat gave her and all his premies, until 1987 when the required
daily meditation time was cut from 2 hours a day to one hour giving her and doubtless many others a glimmer of hope that she would be able to begin to meditate properly at last.
Modified by ocker at Thu, Apr 26, 2007, 17:00:39
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Linda is Valerio's sister in law, dunno who Valerio's wife is. Anyway what was Linda's problem, I could do three hours straight and never used a beragon. Perhaps that's the problem it's only the ones who were too dim to concentrate who have actually stuck with Prem to the bitter end. N
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I've mentioned this before but I theorise that in many cases people who were good at sitting, doing the meditation techniques with what they considered reasonably good concentration, were more likely to jump ship because they knew they actually had practised the meditation whereas those Linda Pascotto type meditators will never have the confidence to realise Knowledge and become liberated from Rawts nonsense. One only had to hear the embarassed titters when meditation times were mentioned to realise many premies were hopeless at it and when Rawat cut the minimum meditation time in half and cut out "Constantly meditate and remember Holy Name" that should have been the end of the cult there and then!
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I think you have hit on a good point there Ocker (which is not to imply that you often don't but merely that it is one I recognise). A barrier to leaving is indeed the notion of not yet really having given it a 'fair' try....and indeed that is one of the current promises. However 'fair' has no reasonable limit once you have accepted the role of M as 'the ultimate giver' and you as the 'beggar'. etc... So giving it a fair try becomes endless and unacheivable ... But I think you are right though. Somewhat paradoxically the reward for making a sincere effort is that you finally get move on and find freedom. Hmmm ...so the only 'good' premies are ex-premies ?! best Tim
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When has Rawat spent substantial time around cows? Maybe when he's in Amaroo and his gopies massage the calves for his high-tech grill. You know, those calves that had to have just the right temperment for him to eat, after being properly prepared for slaughter. I'm not making this up. It's just insulting to people when Rawat makes those kinds of statements. "When a cow is being a cow, the cow is the happiest." As opposed to what? Dumb. It's like when he said he's proud to be a human being. As opposed to what?  But, I consider those statements to be quite benign when compared to something below that apparently he said in India recently. This is more of the "your mind is your enemy, only worry about the 'big boss' satsang" that Rawat used to give in the earlier days of his career. India, 2007 The creator is within you, and the one who separates you from that is also within you. So now, think about it, who have you listened to until now? People say, “I don’t need a teacher. I don’t need a Master.” You don’t need a teacher? Everyone has a Master from before. Who have you made your Master? Your mind is your master. That’s what you listen to. As soon as the mind says, “Walk here. Walk there. Buy a blue saree, buy a green saree. Color your hair. Grow a moustache. Remove your moustache.” The mind says, “Oh, I don’t want to go to the office today. Call. I don’t want to go.” Whatever the mind says, you are the servant of it. I have seen very good people, who think of themselves as very independent, they are not working for anybody. But they are not the boss. You only think you are the boss. But you have a boss. And it’s a very dangerous boss. He makes you work very hard, and never gives you a bonus. At least the boss who gives you the rupees will give you holiday, will give you a Sunday. But you know this other boss that you have? Doesn’t even give you a break on Sundays. Does not give you one day of the week off. All day long it makes you work, and even all throughout the night. It makes you work. Even when you are asleep, it takes you away. It makes you see those dreams in which you can be afraid. So, you’re the boss? No. You are not the boss. So, what have I come to explain to you? Change your job. Now, it’s possible that you know, you think, “It took a lot for me to be able to get this particular job, and if I leave this job, and I don’t get another job that accepts me, then I’m going to be lost.” Don’t worry. This other boss is waiting for you. He will give you vacations. What kind of vacation will he give you? So that in your life, you will be showered with joy and bliss. Every day you will get a bonus. Be conscious with love, and it will make you so very, very rich. So, change your job. You don’t have to wait. He does not even need your resume. It has nothing to do with that. It has only to do with that trust. Go with the heart of a child. I can show you how to change your job. Make that supreme bliss your boss, and there will be no lack of bonuses in your life. That is the essence of what I have come here to say. Now you need to understand that. Whatever is happening in our lives, every breath that is coming in and out of us is so priceless. Each and every breath. When will you know that it is priceless? Shall I tell you? When the last one comes. Maharaji
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Apr 25, 2007, 07:21:10
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Right, maybe he didn't say that when he was in India but there definitely seems to be two messages, Satsang Trad in India and Satsang Lite in the West.
I prefer Satsang Trad because it usually actually says something whereas Satsang Lite is almost content free, pure vapour that dissolves into nothingness.
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with Rawat's drivel.
But once you are clear and safe on the other side ..........
you've understood something big in your life.
Maybe I'm a bit exagerationg on this, but I think I'm very aware of what's OK and what's wrong with anyone's talk now. Not naive anymore, believe me !!
Maybe a bit too much aware ?
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