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It's awesome isn't it? I cannot contemplate the revoltingness of his mind for more than a few moments without my eyes bugging. I love the bit where the world is just going to completely collapse without him!
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The 'enemy' within is always a good mainstay for the 'religious' who want to exert control over others - the Christian notion of humans being inherently (at least in part) evil achieves much the same thing. Christianity though has always tended toward locating the sourse of personal 'evil' in the body, so that even 'evil thoughts' are traceable to physical urges - lust, greed etc. Rawatism's identification of the 'critical faculties' as the source of personal evil is quite literally a 'mindf***', and of course it is not possible for an individual to fully encompass that idea, and remain functional. I do think that there is some explanation of why some of Rawat's longest serving followers have turned out to be pretty unpleasant people, to be found in the mind is evil doctrine. Being at war with yourself is not likely to set you up as a kind or loving person. N
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This a very valid point that clarifies things well.
"I do think that there is some explanation of why some of Rawat's longest serving followers have turned out to be pretty unpleasant people, to be found in the mind is evil doctrine. Being at war with yourself is not likely to set you up as a kind or loving person." Lp
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 05:26:21
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Toward the end of my time in the cult, I think I was becoming one of those "unpleasant people." You can't hold onto such self-hatred as Rawat teaches, all the while calling it "peace and love" and not become pretty unpleasant, or maybe a bit nuts.
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It appears to me now, looking back, that those who were able to quickly assume influential positions within the organisation, were those who were able to quickly accept that this was the case, who regarded being in the grace and having a desirable service as more important than being a nice person. Compassion for regulars was not in the curriculum.
Without mentioning names, there were some who shocked me by how quickly they became hardened and uncaring to aspirants, and anyone not directly connected with Rawat and his chain of command. Needless to say they are still there.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 12:38:00
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Yes, indeed. It seemed to me that the abuse that the premies got from Rawat and some of the more abusive honchos in the cult, they often transferred down onto the aspriants in a very passive aggressive way. Once an aspirant was hooked on "wanting knowledge," a premie could lord over the aspirant feigned wisdom and "experience," knowing that the aspirant was in a very vulnerable position. Some of the "knowledge selections" I saw were quite sadistic, and I don't use that word lightly. There was a lot of mental and psychological abuse going on. And true, if you got to a honcho position, the whole cult was easier to accept, because you had more control over your life, and there were vulnerable premies below who were trying to surrender to you. It was sick, actually.
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Once people got to the honcho position they were rewarded by a share in the bounty of Maharaji: the opportunity to play "little god" when the "Big God" was away. To tease and play cat and mouse with the minds.
Really: sick.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 13:54:48
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Right. I think it was pervasive, but not everyone did that. Which leads me to my contention that even in the cult, even with all the programming, fear, and the really bad example of Rawat himself, people still had the choice whether to be humane or not and sometimes the cult just made it a lot harder. So, some of the people who were really tyrants, are still responsible for what they did.
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tyrants and nasty people are disseminated everywhere like a plague. May be the cult was only a good chance for those who already had this tendency latent to take advantage of the situation with total impunity. If I remember right, many honchos even enjoyed being tyrants.
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It appears to me now, looking back, that those who were able to quickly assume influential positions within the organisation, were those who were able to quickly accept that this was the case, who regarded being in the grace and having a desirable service as more important than being a nice person. Compassion for regulars was not in the curriculum. Well said, LP. I found that the people closest to Maharaji in the late 70s were the most aloof and mean to others. The Malibu crowd, many of whom had moved to Miami during the project, were so snobby. There were exceptions, of course, but the majority were nasty f**kers, especially those who were the closest and had the most contact with M. I found myself taking on those attributes to a degree -- I took on a feeling of being superior to rank and file premies --- not because I had an influential position, but because I was close enough to the inner circle to take on the attitude that nothing mattered but what he wanted. My experience with aspirants while I was in a community was that the regular community premies were very good to them, both in Hartford and later when I was in Gainesville. However, the traveling initiators/Mahatmas held themselves above everyone, including us community premies. The feeling of entitlement starts at the top and works it's way down. Hey, it's not like anyone who's ever sat in those front row program seats would ever give them up for an aspirant or a community premie! lol.
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 13:54:58
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I was never particularly into getting front row seats, but once, at Essen I think, I ran into Milky, (when he was still speaking to me), before the program, and he said "Come on", pulled strings and somehow got me past security and into a front seat beside him, right in front of the throne.
I tried to savour the feeling of being honoured to be sitting there. Maharaji came out and looked perturbed to see me sitting right in front of him.
I remember feeling more and more uncomfortable, I glanced sideways along the row, left and right at all the special premies all in their silks and expensive suits, trying to look about a mile above all the rest of the premies, their heads held, just so, and so holy? (actually it wasn't so much holy), it was just superior: better dressed: better looking: more important: more wealthy: more blessed: in essence, most deserving of the jealousy and envy of all the rest of the rank and file crowd.
I felt ashamed and out of place to be sitting among them (in a ten quid cotton suit, just bought with a few days work stacking tellies) and in a break, I left and went to the back, vowing never to go near the front again.
It perturbs me that I can't really figure out why I still kept on going at all, as, I think Joe said, it is not easy to tear oneself away. The mental programming runs deep. And it was by no means over for many more years.
I do remember that I enjoyed meeting all the premies that I knew between shows. That was a more natural high.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 14:37:58
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I can remember premies running themselves ragged and putting themselves through hell, trying to get a "close" seat and trying to ingratiate themselves to whoever was necessary for that to happen. There were lots of people like that. It was crazed. Yes, the privileged premies in the front row. Some of whom were never seen except they showed up to their privileged position. It was kind of funny. The only time I ever sat close at an "event" was at a program in San Francisco, when I hadn't seen Rawat in about 8 years. That was the program I walked out of in the middle of Rawat's rambling, offensive drivel. I guess that was in 1990.
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a sort of floating feeling, heart beating, rows of shocked premie eyes staring at you on either side, uncertain in each step, but the legs won't stop once they have begun and, though it seems like miles, eventually the back of the hall is reached. A strange quiet falls as the double doors close behind you for the last time and a strong human warmth fills the chest with relief. It's over.
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 16:23:37
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It was kind of a happy walk, to tell you the truth, because I felt so relieved that it really was over and behind me. There was nothing there to hold me, and I felt very free. I sat and listened to him and then, he started being really offensive, in that squeaky voice, criticizing the "people of the world' for how confused they were and how they were looking for happiness in places like amusement parks and how screwed up that was and how (by implication) advanced and wise he was. I thought that was just offensive, and I thought "what the hell has HE ever done to be able to criticize anybody else?" NOTHING. So, I stood up and walked out. He was just so fucking smug and arrogant. But, what really creeped me out was the looks on the faces of the premies. Not the looks at me, but how they were looking at Rawat. This was supposed to be an introductory program and Rawat wasn't on a throne, instead standing behind a plexiglass podium. But, nevertheless, the premies were looking at him with these ga ga faces, exactly as if they believed they were looking at god incarnate. I guess I had never been in a position to see that before. It was revolting to see it. But it felt great to walk out, into the sunlight, into my life, free from all those horrible mind games that Rawat played. Free from the guilt and the fear and all the stagnating belief system. It felt great.
Modified by Joe at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 16:42:50
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It was almost those words exactly that triggered that final moment for me too.
He had been telling the same old story of the person who tried to get a chocolate bar out of a vending machine without money, for, it seemed, at least twenty minutes. (The perfect master has all our quarters)( ). And he seemed to think it was hilarious, perhaps to some of the many who tittered on Q it was.
I looked at the enrapt faces beside me, smiling and chuckling in awe and reverence, and tried one last time to see what they were hearing.
"Was I missing something? Was he going somewhere with this? Was there some deep hidden meaning that would, with the punch line, bring satori?"
No, the entire point of his convoluted discourse was that people are incredibly stupid.
"Well", I said to myself: "We, certainly, are incredibly stupid to be sitting here listening to this."
I hardly felt or noticed myself standing up, but my legs knew what to do. Once outside: I knew I would never be found inside one of those dark halls again.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 05:47:52
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Thanks for that, LP. In retrospect, there were lots and lots of occasions when I thought and felt that Rawat was not only arrogant and incoherent, but actually just plain boring and it was a complete waste of time to see him. Actually, that was most of the time in the last, say, 3 years of my involvement. I still have a sick feeling when I envision the inside of the Miami Beach Convention Center and the hours of blather I heard coming from him there. But, the insidious rationalization process that goes on, based on the fear that Rawat teaches, can be very strong, and it's such a trap. People have asked me how was it that Rawat deceived me, how was it that he duped me. My answer is always the same. Actually, for 99% of the cult, Rawat didn't dupe me, I duped myself. If you really want to believe something, if you really think you need to believe something, you can make yourself believe anything, and ignore all evidence to the contrary no matter how obvious and pervasive. The 1% that Rawat and the cult inculcated in me was the fear, the fear of my mind, the fear of blowing it, the fear of offending the living incarnation of God. The rest of the mind control, was all me. Of course I also went to satsang every night for 8 years having the beliefs reinforced over and over and over, as did many premies, including the aging group that still follows him these days. They stay because they had the most indoctrination. So, I sat in the boring satsang and instead of seeing what was obviously there, that Rawat was an arrogant, greedy, buffoon and I was wasting my precious life listening to him, I just blamed myself and my evil mind for even thinking that. It's such a trap. And, I think once you get out of the cult and stop all the destructive rationalizing, you can get really angry about that. I know I did.
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It is perhaps the only thing that gets underneath the false rationalizations: perhaps the most taboo thing for a premie is to feel anger or express anger toward Maharaji.
Sometimes the way beyond fear is to shout at our demons. We have to burn our bridges too, so there's no chance of turning back: under peer pressure, or a moment of guilt or remorse.
There is no middle path for him. If he is not the divine being he claimed to be, and clearly he is not: he cannot then hope for a respected career doing something more moderate. He deserves only the lifelong contempt of the whole human race.
His lies are bigger than any number of words, they are written in wasted, ruined; and even totally destroyed human lives.
How dare he now begin another massive, organised hunt for another young generation to do the same thing to; under a disguise of innocuous altruism for purely selfish, worldly reasons.
Shame on all those mayors of cities and representatives from so many countries and the UN; who shake his hand and give him honours and keys to cities, without any research, but solely based on his own propaganda.
They have sullied their names and their reputations by allowing him to use them, by association, to whitewash his own deplorable activities. They have become, knowingly or not, accomplices in the enslavement of the vulnerable and the degradation and abuse of countless innocent, well-meaning human lives.
Saph.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 14:14:14
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I think anger was the first real emotion I felt when leaving the cult that wasn't tainted and repressed by the cult conditioning. And as you say, it was so taboo to be angry at Maharaji that it tore a lot of the facade away. You really do pin point the key issue. Either Maharaji is the Perfect Master, the equivalent of Jesus and Krishna, or he never was. He cannot slither away from what he held himself out to be and pretend he's now something else. This is why ex-premies are such a threat to him. They bear witness to his lies, to his attempts to obfuscate the past and what he did in the past, and how he continues to do the same, just in a more covert manner. This is also why ex-premies, via the internet, have pretty much precluded any possibility that Maharaji will ever get any significant followers in the west, will continue to lose followers, and can, at best, just hope to soak as much as possible for the truly die-hard premies, so that he can get the obsecenely expensive stuff he thinks he deserves, like a new Gulfstream Jet.
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How dare he now begin another massive, organised hunt for another young generation to do the same thing to; under a disguise of innocuous altruism for purely selfish, worldly reasons. The fact is that he's not launching anything more than massive fundraising, looking for some trust fund kids. He's done so many about-faces in regards to propagation and the other fact is that he's a total failure. The vast majority of people who come across Rawat look away quickly. After 40 years of being a guru, look how few people still follow him. He's a joke. Any number of California new age gurus are doing much better than he is in the numbers department. That's why these new propagation surges make me laugh. He fails at attracting people to himself.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 15:26:06
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Yes he can only look forward to ever diminishing returns for plying his trade.
He was never the attraction, we were. Even back then it wasn't until I was safely parked in the satsang hall as it were that his largeship was produced.
Lol, no honestly at least all the buddhist things don't do that to you! And take a peep into the goings on of some reprehensible christian cult like Christian Science say and you find them all behaving much more politely.
Okay the end result is the same I spose, god goo.
In a Dawkins book I read there was a table called hawks and doves. It modelled cooperative or punitive styles of behaviour to see the rewards. It panned out that cooperative was stable and punitive produced winners and losers. And it showed that whilst there were plenty of doves in the population the hawks did well but then crashed as the percentages shifted.
It's not just him, his whole group is getting less attractive.
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Thanks Cynthia and Lesley,
Your posts are very reassuring. I'm afraid even hearing one premie tape recorder playing inside a mindless head makes me feel so angry and so helpless at the same time, particularly those who were my friends.
I find it particularly maddening when they say things like he never said he was the lord or the perfect master etc. when they know darn well they have stood beside me and Bole Shri'd their heads off with the rest of us.
Maybe I'm just having a bad beard day.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 17:08:40
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While there were the occasional premie who was attracted by Rawat himself, and heaven only knows how but then we're a weird mob, it was absolutely the premies who attracted me. I didn't fully realise that for possibly decades because so many of the early premies were space cadets and I was pretty straight but over the years I've realised that in all facets of life it is the honesty, enthusiasm and idealism, decency and hard work of people that I respect and that inspires me and looking back that was how it was in DLM too. And I have never found any of those qualities in Rawat.
He's dishonest and was from the beginning with his "I am a just a humble sevant" shtick in public and his "If you really have a Perfect master all you can do is worship Him" in private. And while he's apparently a gogo man for things he likes to do like learning to fly and driving watching the 3 Stooges and playing with electroninc equipment he's lazy as can be when it comes to bringing peace to the world. He's averaged an hour of "work" a week for the last 40 years.
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It's not just him, his whole group is getting less attractive. It's true. I read the link to Amazon (Joe's post above) where premies are trying to defend M against the truth. It's never pretty to see that kind of denial and mindlessness going on in somebody. Yet, in reading the thread there, I couldn't help but feel their need to say something out loud. Rawat's biggest mistake was gagging his devotees.
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Hi LP,
I think you're over rating Rawat and the Rawatists' abilities. Handing out free DVDs (and making the premies pay for them) is a pathetic method of propagation and undoubtedly will be as unsuccessful as every other campaign over the last 30 years. Once Rawat took control of DLM and turned it into DECA and then Elan Vital the wheels fell off the propagation bus.
And he's missed the last bus. If he'd taken a very back seat 30 years ago and sent out some of the more charismatic premies to do the hustling on the hustings to fire up the enthusiasm and get people hooked before introducing little doses of Rawat's boredom he might have set up a very tidy little cult but I actually think he's jealous of the obvious talents of many of his followers and can't stand to see them doing for him what he can't do for himself when he's the incarnation.
And how is he going to appeal to young people? With slogans like Rawat is Rad, Dude!
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Once Rawat took control of DLM and turned it into DECA and then Elan Vital the wheels fell off the propagation bus. Just a note of clarification: DLM wasn't turned into DECA. DLM was operating out of Miami Beach at the same time DECA was in operation in Miami/Hialeah, FL. DLM was renamed Elan Vital in 1983 when DLM filed a name change with the State of Colorado Secretary of State dept. That's where DLM was originally incorporated, so that's where they had to file the name change even though DLM/EV headquarters was likely still in Miami Beach in 1983. DLM would have been considered a foreign corporation in the states of Florida and California. That's how incorporations work within the states. Everything else you said I agree with. Rawat long ago turned people off. There was a surge early on and then later in the mid to late 70s. Since then, membership has steadily dropped. He's boring, trite, and doesn't have an original thought in his head. Sometimes when I read what he's said recently, I'm surprised premies haven't died of sheer boredom by now at the idiotic repetitions. Enough to put one into a coma.
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Right you are that DLM and DECA co-existed, but I think DECA (the plane project and Rawat's "needs" sucked everything out of DLM for a few years. I was at DLM in 1979, and all the energy went into raising money for the plane, with a few minor other events going on, but there was no money for anything else. Even the festivals were planned as fundraisers for Rawat and the plane. That's partly why registration fees started going up so much, and why there were lots of darshan lines. They are intentionally done to suck money from the premies. And virtually no propagation happened during that period. Actually, though, "Elan Vital" started happening before 1983. When I got sent to San Francisco after being at DECA and in Miami, in October, 1980, DLM was being dissolved and the communities all became separate non-profits, and "Elan Vital" was starting to be used as the name of what used to be DLM. Again, almost nothing happening propagation-wise.
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which happens quite often. I meant he turned DLM - a group of people who thought they were part of a millenial movement to bring peace and bliss to the world and themselves - into DECA - a group of people to use for his whims because they were convinced he was God.
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In that case, you're absolutely right. Thanks.
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>Once Rawat took control ...................the wheels fell off the propagation bus.<
I'm not sure this is historically quite right. The point at which Rawat can be said to have definitively taken control is somewhat obscure, though perhaps (at least in propagation terms) it could be said to be when he forbade premies from giving satsang in the early 1980s. By then however recruitment had fallen well below the levels of the early to mid 70s.
In organisational terms I would put the point at which "the wheels fell off" as coinciding with the departure of Mike Dettmers; although it is testament to the strength of Dettmers skills that the EV set up that he created has continued to serve Rawat's purposes long after Dettmers had left. What was lost when Dettmers went was any capacity to innovate; for all the endless make overs and 'next big things' the Rawat cult is just the same people working from the same reference points, over and over again. As to 'attracting youth' the Rawat cult has every sign of being pathologically frightened of the young - something which perhaps comes directly from Rawat. In the early years all the functionaries and advisers were unavoidably older than Rawat - but that age balance has remained unchanged over three decades. It's not just that Rawat is unattractive to the young (can't see many older folks - except for premies -seeing him as exactly beautiful either), but the whole set up is weighted down by its increasingly elderly membership profile. Rawat could probably get away with his quadruple chins if he had some athletic followers but a band of arthritic wrinklies just isn't going persuade the world that they have a unique answer to life's problems. Nik
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Nik, I think you are right in terms of the organization itself, but I think the wheels fell off propagation after 1976, when Rawat decided to drop all pretenses with the premies and turn unabashedly to an idol worship cult. Many premies left right before or during this period, and propagation dropped to almost nothing. It was just too blatantly a Rawat-worship cult, and so there was no wide audience to appeal to. Plus, we had no clue how to present Rawat, other than the living God. When premies were told to not present him that way, it came across as lying, and the enthusiasm of the earlier years was gone. So, the main attraction, enthusiastic, sincere premies, was gone and people were no longer attracted. In the earlier 70s, when propagation focused more on knowledge, the spiritual path, feeling bliss, and bringing peace to the world, there was a large audience of potentially interested people, albeit mostly young. But in the late 70s that all changed. So, in the 80s, Rawat was left with a small, thoroughly indoctrinated group of devotees who pretty much accepted his divinity, and that the whole point was to worship him. Some portion of that group are the aging followers of today, who may appear "normal" but pretty much believe that anything Rawat does is perfect.
Modified by Joe at Thu, Feb 15, 2007, 13:21:03
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To get an idea about how successfaul the last "Young Peoples' Initiative" was just check out www.coolchill.org and look at http://www.coolchill.org/newsletters/ and it's the same story as the pathetic dreams of propagation we saw in BrisIpswich.doc. Everything is going to be so so enjoyable and so many people are going to come to the feet of the perfect master and then ... everything just fizzles out in embarassed failure and one or two newsletters in two or three years.
Actually I have it on good authority that nothing has really inspired premies to get out and propagate since your nightly readings from Lord of the Rings back in ... well way back.
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This is most encouraging. Perhaps I am one of the few who is fooled by it. Heartened by these posts above no end. Thanks guys. I've always known the truth of what you say about his ability to spread his "own" knowledge.
I am pained to think, however, of even one person getting pulled into it, but maybe it is not as bad as the whole of life policy he sold us. The words that ring in my eyes to prove that that robotic premie mindset still exists out there, are no doubt coming from old lifers, and as you say they are not going to change, but I still hope they might.
I still feel bad for those lifers, with whom I did some of the convincing or more than some.
For once, two minutes after waking, I am feeling optimistic already.
With thousands of DVD's, practically handed out free in supermarkets, I was envisaging horror scenes of a sudden success growth rate like IPOD's.
Your description snapshot certainly catches him in a better light. Thanks guys.
Modified by Lp at Thu, Feb 15, 2007, 01:48:43
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If only I'd been a little less gullible as a youth.
Scarifying by presenting half truths as truths.
Rawat is so dull.
Love
Bryn
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Were said to me personally when I told him I wasn't happy with the way things were going.
They have given me much cause for serious internal distress from then until... well, I don't know if my subconscious is over it yet.
In 1972 he said to me, through narrowing eyelids:-
"If you betray me, I will curse you."
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"If you betray me, I will curse you."
Phew! That's a big thing to be told by the Lord of the Universe.
Of course, for anyone else to say that, you just have to laugh! Hit them with your lucky heather.
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So there you have it - the Lord of Compassion ---- NOT!
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Although, I do believe Rawat is also a victim of the weird childhood he had, and the bizarre parents he got. Neverthess, there is a statute of limitations on being able to blame one's childhood. At some point, Rawat is completely responsible for his destructive actions.
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I said "How could I betray you? I went to India seeking truth, not a curse, I have nowhere to put it, so you'd better keep it."
Modified by Lp at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 16:14:35
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And you weren't stuck dead by lightning?  Did he say anything to you after you said that?
Modified by Joe at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 16:46:51
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Well it's a long story which I intend to tell in context in a larger work, in more detail.
But he calmed down, and said something like:
"Well I must admit, things got a bit ugly there for a moment, I'll make you a deal, go and fulfill your desire and if you come back I will make you a Perfect Mahatma."
Soon it was time to go to Westminster Abbey where he gave his:-
"Where ever one spark of this knowledge hits it makes perfect, and again hits: again makes perfect" satsang.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 05:50:55
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That was a line that in my eyes at the time made him look like the real deal. Did you say something like that to him?
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"And again hits: it again makes perfect"
Unless, I'm very much mistaken he was influenced by what had just happened i.e. our confrontation, and his second chance promise to me:
"Go and fulfill your desire and if you come back I will make you a perfect mahatma."
He was very upset about it at the time, and the satsang came right afterwards.
In the book he says he asked me to step down. In truth I said I wasn't happy with it and felt I should resign. After a few days thinking about it, I could not except his invitation to try again: even with the temptation of being a perfect mahatma this time.
His curse promise did not sweeten the offer either.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 19:53:33
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Funny about that! The trouble with talking to an inflatable head like Rawat is what they make out of it.
It's not just that there's no point. It's worse than that.
Lacking anything of substance to say themselves and with absolutely no interest in what another person might say, nevertheless at one point I noticed with my father than he used whatever was said to him to clothe his purpose in speech instead.
Talk about parrot shit!
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Didn't you know that nobody talks back to Maharaji? I'd bet he hated you for that. You were so much smater than he ever has been.
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Actually the last bit is inspired by an answer in a similar confrontation in an ancient Hindu scripture. Perhaps the "Srimad Bhagwatam"?
I hoped he was familiar with the line. Strange thing: almost at once he developed an enormous zit, which can just be seen, if you study the Westminster Abbey footage.
I felt guilty about the zit, as if I had given it to him, but later I realized it was just his own poison coming out.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 06:40:49
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Shameless and vile. I spit on him.
When I first exed I suspected he really was as bad as I thought he was but I could not help but think that maybe he just appeared as bad as that because of all the adulation and craziness.
Numbers of people have said similarly, how can we not. If we are going to examine the impact he has had on us then it is only natural to reflect on the impact we had on him.
But this is too reminiscent of my father. Who, the picture is emerging, pretty much bowled straight out of the unholy wedlock of his cradle bouncing with a punitive charm and with the shit fan already going.
I did a bit of reading on the internet at one stage. This bit was good - (I'm paraphrasing here) by the time these children are ten they are already terrorising the neighbourhood because the other ten year olds wouldn't stoop so low.
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Absolutely, Lesley. Same with my father. I spit on all three: Your father, my father, and Maharaji. I found out that my father was also quite the sociopath when very young. He was burning down small outbuildings on his parent's property before age ten. And worse. What a shame that little Prempal was set loose on thousands and is still doing his psychopathic thing, but all over the world. Who's the monster in this story? God, a good shrink would have a field day with him!
Modified by Cynthia at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 14:14:39
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I think the shrinks go running for cover! no really what are they supposed to do with someone like that.
Two choices. Get paid to tell him how wonderful and perfect he is plus, groan, do what you've just accepted the fee for and ugh listen.
Then what, suggest a colleague?
Sometimes when you go to war you lose. And when you lose you lose. Ah it was awful to see what happened to her after my mother had a pretty serious stroke.
It took a whole community, friends family and healthcare people to remove their superficially correct yet subliminally coerced support of my father from him and give it to her properly in order to rescue her in the end.
That's life! When she could not speak I spoke for her but then she must speak for herself again and look what happened, and so I'm very proud of her.
Why did we do it again?
Modified by lesley at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 15:06:22
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Goddamed that f**king bastard, LP. I'm so sorry you had to hear that from anyone, never mind someone who claimed power over your life. It's just not true. I hope you know that on every level, but still -- that's a statement that's on par with Jagdeo telling one of his rape victims (the child of premies) that her clothes were her mind and she should take them off for him (Jagdeo). It's not true, it never was, never will be, and it was a horrible, abusive, nasty thing to say to someone that loved him so much. It never ceases to amaze me how much hatred and abuse comes from Maharaji towards those of us that followed him and loved him the most -- gave everything to him.
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EPO is third in Google, and ex-premie sites have 5 from the top 10 in a search for 'Prem Rawat'. Surely if he had the power to curse someone, he could get EPO and the other sites down to page 94. Premies are reduced to claiming copyright (failed twice) and offering cash (25,000 EUR was the last offer) to close EPO down. Of course, assasinating me would be cheaper, but would have no effect on EPO, as passwords, data, etc, are in safe custody.John
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When things were at their toughest for my brother in his stand for his mother and sister, and his father was having a great time, an entirely unexpected thing happened. The French government awarded him a knighthood. It was just one of those things they are so good at, he had helped a lot with the French school over here.
My mum and I were absurdly pleased it was happening though. There at Sydney city hall, the french consul general pinned a medal on my brother. Here's one for you
Modified by lesley at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 19:33:51
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That's one nil to you then LP, as I see it. Once a person has uttered that form of words, its their load from that moment on, in my experience. Cursing is so old hat. Let him sweat under the weight of his own reckless words, I say, and flit off giggling! If he hasn't the sense to keep his trap shut let him take the consequences. Prem Rawat the great Occultist!? Hmmm. love Bryn
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and how many has he betrayed?
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The betrayal was his as well as the curse.
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Every premie know very well he's never going to make it - plus most of them never 'meditate', and practice rawat's 'knowledge' with such guilt feelings.
What a deadly philosophy ! Poor guys really !!
Modified by Jean-Michel at Tue, Feb 13, 2007, 10:32:06
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True observation Jean-Michel.
Though the aim was only to get premies into a dependant and subservient position where they could be manipulated at his will.
You could wonder at how this ever worked as much as it did for him. The scenario he painted was pretty grim. The mind, such a tricky, sneaky, insidious enemy, and right in the worse place imaginable, inside us.
Even given that a miracle of meditative zeal might push back the monster-mind for a while, seeing no real light at the end of the tunnel, what actual hope could any premie have?
A hopeless scenario, inspiring no confidence, but frightening us merely, into supplicating ourselves before him and begging him to get the mind-monster off our back.
All very well for him and his donation tin, but given his total lack of any actual divine grace, blessing power or techniques to remove minds, a dire and bleak prospect for us and the projected images of doom we so hungrily internalised.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 07:20:59
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In 2006, while on his tour, Rawat told premies that people that don't practice turn into monsters. As the Brits say, I can't be arsed to find the exact quote but he said it.
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not!
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Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 02:48:08
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thanks though in a way I rather think they do..
I know in my childhood days it was the one who was being blessed not cursed that suffered the most, lol.
But Rawat? I have thought at times of all those monsters that must inhabit whatever he has that one would normally call a memory - all those people he has individually and personally trashed, that he can put a face and a name to, and even worse than that, the multitude that he cannot.
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It's hard to contemplate what it must be like inside his head (shudder) but I still wonder, does he see them as totally wrong and still deserving of the treament or does he ever wonder if he was a bit over the top, and alienated perfectly good devotees?
My guess is that he figures whoever is not with him now were the people who came for all the wrong reasons.
I find it so insulting to think I went all the way to India and back three times, spent two thirds of my life trying to make sense of his teachings: just lived to spread his knowledge, turned my back on everyone and gave up everything for him and all for the wrong reasons.
Maybe he was wrong? Somehow I can't imagine him having such a thing as a conscience.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 17:22:49
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People used to think ulcers were caused by stress, spicy foods, whatever, but most of them are actually caused by a gut bacteria. Cigarette smoking and alcohol makes ulcers worse, though, so he probably caused most of his problems in that regard himself.If he did have a conscience it would be much, much smaller than the bacterium that sent him to the hospital.
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Somehow I can't imagine him having such a thing as a conscience.
No, that withered on the vine. He was fucked in that department from birth, & had no hope at all after the age of 7. I'm thinking here of the famous, or infamous depending on pov, Jesuit boast, 'give me a child from the age of 7 & I'll give you the man'.
The man being, they hoped, a steadfast Christian gentleman, erudite, rational, & above all someone for whom the infinite subtleties of conscience required a lifetime's attention.
Being God from the age of 7 kinda turns all that sorta thing topsy turvey.
Even the more homely sort of conscience instilling, such as 'don't hit that servant with that stick, he's made in the image of God just like you' , could well have been left undone, given the circumstances.
Then when the hormones kicked in he grew up to be the very model of a modern Oriental Potentate. A throwback in the middle of the C20th.
As others have pointed out here, the social dynamic of the upper reaches of the cult are reminiscent of those around a medieaval princeling. Which means in essence that he can trust no one.
Interesting about the curse: do you see that as a moment when you could've changed your own history?
I say that because in retrospect I know when my own moment was. Prem Nagar ashram 1972, & there was a little white-faced, abandoned, tensed up child trying to say something to his mother & father. She was very slightly irritated, but serene in the Knowledge, & he was a stern glowing oaf, & she said ..............'don't touch me, you mustn't be attached, Guru Maharaj Ji doesn't want us to be attached'.........& I thought what the fuck is this, but I never said anything.
That's when I understood what LILA really means, & shame on me, I accepted it.
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Definitely, if I had not come back, I would have saved myself another 30+ years of inner anquish. I had the perfect chance to walk away for good, but I came back for more. Nutter.
Fear was used to effect this, and not just the subtle kind either.
Modified by Lp at Wed, Feb 14, 2007, 20:03:03
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Pat, what a revolting story. I can remember a lot of child abuse going in in the cult in the name of surrendering to Rawat. The most obvious one for me was doing security in darshan lines. I recall hundreds of little kids being literally dragged though the darshan lines, standing for hours, going through the "tunnel of love" and then being told to kiss the foot of this greasy, aloof, being sitting on a throne. I also remember the kids wanting their parents' attention, and the parent, wanting to be in "that place" for darshan, ignored them, pretty much. One wonders how much therapy and how many nightmares resulted from that.
Modified by Joe at Thu, Feb 15, 2007, 13:41:27
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goodness, you're right Joe, then having to kiss his feet is the stuff of nightmares.
One thing I have noticed about parents and children is that a little honesty goes a very long way. Children are generally very forgiving of a loving parent, how could they not be, and the honesty puts the ground under their feet.
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Hello, Ultimately, Maharaji has no power and that's the real truth, but LP stated that he feels his subconscious mind is still affected by the mean, cruel words Maharaji spoke to him. Even that LP had the presence of mind to talk back to Maharaji hasn't diminshed the effect on him after all these years (decades). In the same way, current (and especially) long-term premies are very effected by the words Rawat speaks; that's why they don't think or feel they can ever leave him. That's why they lie to themselves and others about him. The psychological damage Prem Rawat can and does do on people is very wounding and injurious. We all have our own stories that are testiment to it. Be well, Cynthia
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Hi cynthia sorry if I was insensitive in my post. that was of course an ex-premie view only, I wasn't that brave as a premie. I'm so sorry for all the pain and fear that maharaji personally brought upon you, all who were close to him and only wanted to serve him. Shame on him. This is a chance to say to you how much I appreciate your contribution to this Forum. All the best
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You were'nt being insensitive at all. I thought about my post to you later and realized that you were coming from the perspective of an ex, because once out of the cult, we realize he doesn't have any power at all.
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And I guess we're the kind of monsters he was talking about.
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