|
|
|
Brother, you`ve obviously made a huge investment in your `spiritual` path. He was now where to be found. Is this a typo or a profound statement? We already have and have always had all we need to accomplish the goal It`s only my opinion, and I could be right or wrong, but there does not appear to be a goal. Did you ever consider that all this so-called knowledge of yoga/meditation states could be a mere attempt to measure the immeasurable and amounts to no more than purely delusional thinking? Nevertheless, if you are getting some benefits from just sitting, by all means, keep on meditating brother. Yours in silence  Mila
|
|
|
|
Hi Mila,Yes, that is a late night typo..sorry. I think that (no goal)is only truly realized when all egoic effort is expended and the ego as seeker collapses into the void….surrenders at the heart. Until that point it is an intellectual idea. Imo, that is the error of intellectualizing Advaita Vedanta. peace a brother
|
|
|
|
'It is very important to make to journey prior to our physical death.'
You are assuming, as most spiritual types do, that none of your audience have made that journey. There are several here who can claim to have experienced samadhi. Been there and done it.
Now, why was it important again?
|
|
|
|
I cannot comment on the authenticity of other people’s realizations. They must validate them for themselves..if they care to. Fear (suffering) is the reason to emulate death. Death is the last and greatest journey. Imo it helps to at least familiarize oneself with the process before falling down the rabbit hole.. a.brother
|
|
|
|
I cannot comment on the authenticity of other people’s realizations. The only reason you've taken on all this Hindu superstition is that you've accepted as authentic the accounts of the supposed masters of the relevant traditions. A hypocritical hole large enough to ride an elephant through.
|
|
|
|
Why can you not comment on the authenticity of other people's realizations? You have determined to follow other people's realizations, those people who advocate taking your attention and focussing it 'inside'. What is the rationality you use to decide which person's advice to follow here? You are certainly accepting some people's inner experience as authentic and others as inauthentic. Since the experience is internal, how do you choose? Follow your heart perhaps? ( choose the most comforting route, that is ).
Why bother about death? You are assuming an afterlife I guess. Otherwise, dying is a pretty short process, in comparison with the rest of your life ( for most of us ). Nothing to worry about
|
|
|
|
The reason that I can’t comment on other people’s realizations is simple… I don’t know them (a particle matter). I think doing so without explicit knowledge of what they experienced is pointless.There are two documented types of samadhi, Jnana and Sahaja. There manifestation can be monitored by neurological sensors. They have been verified in scientific studies. Their attainment is not dependent on any one religious/cultural strategy.. For further transpersonal psychology information you can read the works of Ken Wilber and visit his integral naked site. I only advocate what I have personally verified as true. I am not asking anyone to accept my testimony as true. Any comments MUST be verified as True or false via experience.. If we don’t care enough to do the work then the discussion is simply intellectual pleasure seeking…. the pleasure of thought… mental masturbation. ab
|
|
|
|
It is accepted that changes in brain states can be measured scientifically during a samadhi experience. But the interpretation of that experience is otherwise subjective. I am quite sure I have experienced samadhi myself, and am also sure that I am no more enlightened than the man next door. This was my first point - I have done the work, I have had that experience, and I question its' value.
How you value such an experience is entirely dependent on your cultural context. You apply the meaning to it that you find in your scriptures. Unless you can clearly demonstrate some superior wisdom as a result of such an experience, I think we can write it off, as you say, as mental masturbation.
|
|
|
|
What was the experience which you call Samadhi? Did it trigger any change in your perception of reality? Does frontal lobe persona remain the seat of attention? Is there free awareness of the arising conditions of the world, mind and conditional self. Jnana Samadhi is the ultimate conditional (manipulation of inner light) realization of the transcendental and inherently spiritual “Divine” self-condition (culminating in perfect subjective reality). It is the direct (beyond intellect) realization that the separate conditional self is an illusion. One is no longer trapped in existential dilemma. The superior wisdom is “no one dies”. The result of such insight is a profound peace which completely alters relationship…The egoic structure and its elaborate defense mechanisms are dissolved and the vital energy used to maintain them are made available for the life process. ab
|
|
|
|
'The universal perfect master within the core of our being is who we surrender to-not an external physical'
Hello brother That feels true in some way although I am agnostic and do not know it to be. No need to personalise it or to form any image but it is in our nature to feel gratitude to 'something' ... somehow within and behind nature and the universe itself. Anyway certainly a sad twist to have ever been so mistaken as to connect Rawat with such a presence best wishes Tim
|
|
|
|
Hi Tim,I was very resentful to the “guru” for taking some of the best years of my life. I finally moved through my negativity and found release. True it is in our nature to “feel” gratitude to some “Great Other” but it is the essential “feeling” of gratitude (love) at the heart center which liberates us. The image of the “Great Other” does not matter. Peace a.brother
|
|
|
|
That's interesting to me as I've long thought, from before I saw through Rawat, that this is what the fakir trick is really all about.
Difficult subject.
|
|
|
|
levels of "understanding" arose for those who took the psychedelic phenomena ofthe 60's beyond the Rock/Party mentality.
Ralph Metzner, Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert saw a direct link with the Tibetan Book of the Dead, from which their publications and recordings: - The Psychedelic Experience, and Psychedelic Prayers were a westernized and modern derivation.
The subject was not viewed: by any who knew that time: as morbid, but connected to the love, joy and freedom they felt in the "spirit" of the time. A fascinating subject, made more interesting by not assuming we know anything, but remaining open minded and wide eyed as a child gazing skyward.
Not knowing is a stone groove.
Modified by Lp at Mon, Feb 12, 2007, 18:18:10
|
|
|
|
Hi Lp, Good points. I too saw the links you mention, but in my experience, the line between profound understanding and mental illness is a fine one. Too many sages and seers turn out to be utterly mad upon examination to dismiss the connection. Something to be wary of in our old age eh. Stay in the groove. Mila
|
|
|
|
The myth of madness, imo, is a red herring used to distract the faint of heart.
True enough one must face fevers and delirium but they are no worse than psychedelic substances. The problem is that when it occurs without taking substances we freak-out.
I used a lot of cold compresses and stayed in dark places… away from all contact.
By the way…it passes.A.brother
|
|
|
|
Hi AB,
I liked reading your post, and it helps in understanding wots going on!
I don't think our guru did much else but encourage us to surrender to the universal perfect master within.
Yes okay it's particularly poxy with his picture plastered inside and out but when it comes to it, what picture?
The ones that come up tell a story. Why discard or transcend your own story?
"The process is the emulation of death and when consciousness springs by
out of the heart, rebirth occurs. It is very important to make to
journey prior to our physical death."
That struck a chord with me it makes sense but simple ordinary human to human love can make you just as dysfunctional and phoenix-like as a brush with death!
|
|
|
|
When attention falls to the heart (ego death) there is no "other", the lover becomes the beloved...duality ceases.The content of consciousness (one's story) is not discarded. It is simply not regarded as the source of Self. Thanks peace ab
|
|
|
|
You're hilarious, AB. A regular Hindu fortune cookie.
|
|
|
|
Thanks Jim buy I prefer Ch’an fortune cookies.ab
|
|
|
|
I've forgotten the name but it was about some medical students who thought it was important to experience the emulation of death, so they took drugs and stopped their hearts (one at a time while the others would monitor the body) and then be brought back to life by the others after they had experienced clinical death. Unfortunately one of them actually died I think. My question is this, since we are all going to die anyway, why the great need to anticipate it? We will get there soon enough. Is is just that we fear death so much that we feel we need to experience it first - to give us a sense of "control"? I don't fear death, and I feel no need to emulate it before it happens. I am sure that it will happen quite without my control or interference. For those who feel a need to do so, I am sure constant meditation will help -- but I see this kind of annihilation as being counter-productive to my growth as an individual soul - way too much "merging" going on for me -- lol.
|
|
|
|
...Flatliners with Kiefer Sutherland but if anyone wants the NDE, all 49 days of The Tibetan Book of the Dead, just toke some DMT - that should do it!
|
|
|
|
The problem with DMT is that those mischievous little mettalic alien elves in the lower left-hand corner never really say anything and leave it to your imagination as to what they want you to know. Muhammad and the Son of Sam were also visionairies. No thanks.
|
|
|
|
DMT is simply a nuro-transmitter in the brain. Bumping the levels to extreme simply presents the content of one’s consciousness in a very vigorous and vibrant way. Mckenna was simply looking in a mirror and described the image as alien “the other”, the boogie man…his shadow mind only.ab
|
|
|
|
I don’t think that nonexistence is the problem (ie the void). The problem occurs with the sudden dumping of the content of consciousness (the movie of one's life) at the moment of death.The fear reaction from reliving one’s most difficult moments colors or taints the rebirth process. If you are not concerned about rebirth then it isn’t a problem. Personally I have always liked to take things to the edge…. and peak over. Peace ab
|
|
|
|
Sure, AB, anything you say ....
|
|
|
|
A.B, Seems to me you've got half way through the 'problem' and got stuck. >The process is the emulation of death and when consciousness springs by out of the heart, rebirth occurs. It is very important to make to journey prior to our physical death. < What Rawat (and the the whole 'samadhi' myth) offers is an escape from infantile fear of death. The Rawat cult no longer mentions the 'successful management of death', although it was a major satsang subject in the 70s, but it is that hope that 'guru will be there' when they die that keeps many in thrall to Rawat, despite the evidence that he is just a parasite on their fears. Death is a a one off - it can not be emulated, any more than we can re-enact passing the event horizon of a black hole. Or to use a more facile - but perhaps more aposite simile - there are no born again virgins. Meditation may be helpful, interesting and/or exciting - it can also be boring, unhelpful and, for some people, in some circumstances unhealthy and profoundly damaging. Guruism must be subject to critical examination but so also must the machinery and ideas of guruism be looked at critically, if there is to be any understanding of what these actually 'do to people'. Nik
|
|
|
|
NikIn death there is undeniable process…stages. I am not suggesting the culmination of death which is bodily. I am suggesting or recommending the emulation of death in which attention is drawn to the heart. In doing so the egoic self is left without reification. I am calling for the collapse of self to the event horizon--where time stands still…. the precipice of being so to speak. Peace ab
|
|
|
|
In death there is undeniable process…stages. I am not suggesting the culmination of death which is bodily. I am suggesting or recommending the emulation of death in which attention is drawn to the heart. In doing so the egoic self is left without reification. I am calling for the collapse of self to the event horizon--where time stands still…. the precipice of being so to speak. Your ideas are new age gobbledegook. You don't know what happens during or after death anymore than the next schmoe. You "call for the collapse of self," but if that were to happen, all the mental hospitals would be filling up post-haste. You say a bunch of flighty pseudo-spiritual things that you have no tangible evidence for and therefore are your ju-ju ideas only. Sorry, but I've been around this block a few times.
Modified by Cynthia at Sun, Feb 18, 2007, 11:09:40
|
|
|
|
but I did look up reification in case I'd misunderstood. Remind me why do you want to do this to yourself? 
btw time has not stood still, even if it felt like it, daisies were still unfurling their petals, the earth was turning it's cheek to the sun, your skin was shedding some dead cells, you even kept breathing, digesting, processing sensory information however minimally. Maybe you wouldn't have noticed if a fly had landed on you, but you probably would if a bull ant had bit you.
|
|
|
|
The ego-I illusion is reanimated moment to moment as long as that which is aware within us does not re-cognize its own, clear ineffable nature. When attention is no longer held to the ephemeral light show which is the content of our consciousness (Plato’s cave) the illusion of ego collapses. Liberation from psychological time and the suffering associated with self identity and existential crisis ends.Ab
|
|
|
|
or does it only last until the need for a bowl of cornflakes reasserts itself?
|
|
|
