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So perhaps at last I have at my own personal disposal all the advantages of abject devotion to guru, god and cause, but now without any of that messy, shapeless religion. Nice one Bryn 
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"that paradoxical zero point where self-consciousness and non-entity coincide".
Yeah, that's quite formidable. It reminds me of when I was a young student, and had no idea of what people were talking about academically in such terms. However, I had certain experiences at uni and later of touching spots that were me but not totally me - where self-consciousness and non-entity coincide. Then later, abroad, certain firmer experiences of the same type. I deduced from this a vast loving power which is aware of us always and loves us totally individually. I can't be totally sure of this, but believe it to be true, despite all the red herrings which may have occurred in the meantime.
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and yet in this short thread, your posts, Bryn and Anthony interest me.
I'm keen to hear more on your experiences.
"that paradoxical zero point"
"I had certain experiences at uni and later of touching spots that
were me but not totally me - where self-consciousness and non-entity
coincide.
I deduced from this a vast loving power which is aware of us always and loves us totally individually. I can't be totally sure of this..." No point in hiding the fact, I suppose, that my interest arises from certain resonances with experiences in my own life, quite apart from and outside of the mission scenarios.
Though I'm not sure I've got the picture right on "where self-consciousness and non-entity coincide".
Lp
Modified by Saph at Fri, Nov 24, 2006, 12:30:52
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Though I'm not sure I've got the picture right on "where self-consciousness and non-entity coincide".
That`s probably the best position to take on this matter. If you thought you were sure then, for sure, you would be deluded. As it is you keep an open mind on the subject. Yup, no point hiding the fact for me too.... certain experiences entirely seperate from the mission led me to develop a passionate interest in finding the place where self-consciousness and non-entity coincide.
What I find now, though I can`t be sure about this, is that it appears to be no place.... or emptiness, as the buddhists might say. Phew, that`s a relief then. Mila
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I think you might have got something back to front here, or maybe it's just me, but I find that statement to be totally meaningless, & just in the spirit of fun would like to rearrange it in my own back to front fashion as......... 'the point about Owen Barfield is that at zero he is paradoxically a selfconscious nonentity'.
I never was able to surrender to the lotus feet, & as you can imagine that caused me a deal of grief during all the long years when it was an absolute requirement. Now that I find my 'real self' of those times, if you want to put it like that, vindicated, I'm more inclined to feel like ripping the perps a new arsehole, rather than try for a d.i.y version.
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Hi Pat, What you said made me think back to a time when I was still only 17 years old. I had knowledge for about 3 weeks and then went to the Guru Puga festival in Montrose, Colorado... 1972. To see the Lord. Well, what happened was simply this... I waited in a very long line and then finally it was my time to bend down and kiss his feet. As much as I wanted too for some reason I couldn't bring myself to do it. I bent down but couldn't put my lips on his feet. I walked away and then felt very sorry and guilty for not having done so. Others around me were so 'blissed out' after kissing his feet. I walked to a private place by myself and sat on a rock. Then I questioned myself for not trusting the Lord enough. I cryed my heart out about it all. Then the next thing I knew I felt a wonderful peace and bliss. It lasted for about an hour or so then I slowly came back to my regular thinking thoughts. And then I just wondered what had happened to me. Was it the Lord's grace or just me who made this all happen? But at the time I truely thought it was the Lord. I also remember a time when I kissed Mata Ji's feet way back when and that was even more powerful darshan wise. Does anyone remember kissing her feet? Maybe there is something to kissing feet after all. Footfully Yours, Hilltop. PS and BTW. I'm sorry for not responding back to those who respond to my posts. Esp. Saph and Susan. It's just a time thing for me now. And I still have great respect for so many people. Hilltop
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I confess to kissing Mata ji's feet, and Maharaji's. After meeting the Jamaican man Ram who took mahatma saffron before me and cast it off eventually on stage: Not The First Western Mahatma?
I went back eventually to Mata ji and wept on her feet, asking her not to let that happen to me. She let my tears wash over her feet for a while , then patted me on the head and said I was a good boy.
Shudder. Now tears.
Modified by Saph at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 03:43:57
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Hi Saph, I agree with Mata Ji... You are a good boy! Don't ask me why because I really don't know why... but kissing Mata Ji's feet was one of the times when I felt the most wonderful bliss ever. To bad her own son Prem Rawat sent her back to India and called his own mother and his brothers confused. I have those quotes and it is true. I think his mom and the press was right about Prem Rawat.. He was a playboy. And a scam artist. How can the Lord of any Universe (esp. one of peace) disrepect his own mother like that by calling her confused? And then I have to wonder how does Prem Rawat live with himself? What does he tell his kids about their grandma? Grandma was confused and I sent her and a few of their uncles back to India by my agya? I wonder if he tells his kids the real truth about this scam? But I doubt it... as I think about this thought. Dad? Were you the Lord Of The Universe once? Prem Rawat... Ofcourse Not. I'm just a motivational speaker. The mahatma's are to blame for this strange idea. Does Prem Rawat tell his kids the truth? Does this topic ever come up for them? Makes you wonder doesn't it. What does your dad do for a living? He was the Lord once.
Modified by Hilltop at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 05:35:30
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"What does your dad do for a living? He was the Lord once."
Must be pretty embarrassing. I'm still proud to say that my father was once a Royal Marine.
Modified by Saph at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 06:17:57
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I'm glad your proud of your father and Rightly so. As I am proud of my father who loved and cared for his family through hard work and effort. And my dad served in World War 2. In my mind's eye he was a great man. And I miss him now that he is gone. I was fortunate to be his son. So, I can relate to your feelings of being proud about your father... Saph. It's a good thing.... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Tue, Nov 28, 2006, 01:50:28
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Your stories cut through the "magic" and mysticism like a hot knife through butter, Saph.I love them as you are a gifted writer which makes them a delight to read. Please,please write the book.Maybe make a schedule for it.One story a day.Invite "13" or other trusted neighbours and friends round and record your memoirs if it helps to do it that way. By the way,I can see why the ( oh so) "Holy family" might not have liked your mahatma friend's suggestion of helping a village in Pakistan.Had not Shri Hans had to flee that area after the partition of India ? I seem to remember reading his satsangs where he spoke of trainloads of corpses arriving in India from there.
Modified by lexy at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 09:10:19
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I remember way back (Essen 75?) an initiator (or someone) explaining that the foot-kissing was actually rather painful for M ...thousands of tiny collisions on more or less the same spot...and how kind he was to sit and put up with it. After that I made a point of never actually making contact. Tim
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A little bit of discomfort, not exactly a huge sacrifice on his part, considering the hundreds of thousands of dollars generated by each and every one of those darshan lines.Contrast that with the average working man who puts in a 40-hour week in something like a coal mine -- imagine how their muscles must feel, not to mention risking their lives every single day. No, I'd say Rawat has the better gig and nothing to complain about. After all, he could go straight back to his mistress and get a massage, put his feet up and sip expensive cognac while counting all that money. What a deal. Interesting comment about Mata Ji generating a more powerful darshan experience than M, though. Just goes to show it really was coming from inside us, and nothing to do with who they were.
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I watched the CBS program "Numbers" last night. This is the show that has Navi Rawat as a regular cast member. I had the thought that all these years I've been kissing the wrong Rawat... Kabir
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Yes but how do they perform against atheists with clear, clean, glowing skin?
And how do they perform against moist, enthusiastic, energetic, vigorous humanists?
Bryn, if it wasn't for the victory of the atheists and humanists against the religious then people like yourself, Bryn the apostate and heretic would go the way of Giordano Bruno to whom you have a strong resemblance. Whether it is the inquisition or the World Peace Corps doing it doesn't matter when you're getting burnt to death.
PS: That comment about the WPC was meant strictly for laughs and does not mean I am in a WPC hate group.
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Oooh BD what a privilege it is to have been through the process of deeeBotion and yet to emerge. Your very clear psot has made me think. I too think we are bigger for having given ourselves to another. I loved and prayed and melted through those years. My tatty life absorbed the qualities of my obsession. But most of all I remember the yearning! I havnt yearned that much since, but the insessant yearning that went on ! Yearn, yearn yearn. I have yearned to be 'having an experience' I have yearned to be at an event, I have yearned to be inside and event, I have yearned to be nearer the front, I have yearned for a glimpse of him. I have yearned my way up a polyester tunnel towards the inevitable. If I were to commemmorate the K period of my life in a spiritual tome or diatribe, I would have to call it 'Loaf, the yearning years' God,how I yearned. My yearning muscles are really strong. Too strong for this world. Since the adventof the credit-card and the demise of 'saving up', yearning is only seemingly employed by hapless talent show contestants, whom pitiful dependance and lack of imagination make ugly... and yet in whom hope burns like a cancer. I dont want you to think I was just a one trick pony, with my yearning, oh no! There was bliss too. Great still pools of bliss. Waterfalls and trickles of the stuff... and happiness. I was happy. But when the yearning stopped, thats when I started to live MY life and BE where I was. Flawed, immature, damaged as I am, but I couldnt say in all honesty that the Yearning Years (TM) did me any harm except that they forever bound my strongest feelings and hopes into a formless escape hatch which I always have one hand on the handle. Yearning and Gratitude it seems are the two big emotional lessons I learned - but of course they mean nothing without a context... and thats the problem for people leaving. I graduated in a Yearning and Gratitude (Hons) from the Prem Rawat University, but who will recognise my qualifications? For surely Yearning and Gratitude are defined by what they are applied to? two conduits through which I poured myself joyously and gave myself away. Willingly and happily, I dissolved. Im still gone !
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It's as if you verbalized areas in a new light that were too deep for me to see so clearly before.... so accurately described: to the last word.
Modified by Saph at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 02:53:04
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I guess there is at least one persective (among others) in which one might consider that our self sacrificing skills had value. That is, as it seems to me this morning, if, while we ourselves have paid, in terms of losses in connection to our life associations, relating and functioning, we had, in some way found something of value for the human race at large, and were able to communicate the lessons learned clearly.
This is the "spirit" behind so many of the various posts I see here. This overflies the line between viewpoints. It does, I feel, at least resemble an inherent love of humanity and selfless service. Though our lessons are probably of greatest value to those exiting from cults, particularly the one we exit from in common.
A slant I have on the continuing interest in hearing others experiences (among others) is the satisfaction I feel in seeing others getting to points of honesty or clarity or reality or depth of understanding of What is? Or at least What we appear to be in? Also What we are? and What else there is? ---=-
Or any other honest non religious continued introspection into self, life or universe, or achieving fruits of yogic endeavour (without religious connotations).-----
Without the help, the grace, or the knowledge, for that matter of Guru Mahara ji.
I'd like to be able to say I am glad to see ex-premies restored to normal living and taking their place gainfully or usefully in society, (which, of course I am,) without a shred of envy, (but I can't.)
But we are all still working on our recovery in our own ways, and as far as posting here it's still early days for me. Thanks to every one who posts here. I know it helps.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 07:18:23
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Modified by turey at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 03:16:09
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...and I've thought of a title for your book ( if you ever write one...I love your amusing style....) " A slice of the Loaf ". The word " yearn" is nicely onomatopoeic with it's long vowel sound pronounced "ugh"
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Good one, Loaf. Yearning and gratitude are the hallmarks of Goomrodgie's religion, as you pointed out. I glanced at my personal gopi journal yesterday, which I wrote in starting in 1979. Yup. It was filled with yearning and gratitude. Nothing but. Hope you're well, Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 11:55:28
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Having read some fabulously well-written, expressive and poetic posts on this thread, I feel a bit of a philistine adding my own thoughts on the long-term benefits of cult involvement. But they are honest thoughts, ok? First, ‘yearning’ and ‘surrender’ are pretty alien to my vocabulary, but I can relate to ‘longing’, in my case the longing for something better than I ever felt whilst devoting a chunk of my formerly sensible life to the ‘practice of K’. The whole time, I longed to be more like other, everyday people, people who had never heard of Gumji, and whose time was ‘not yet right’ for receiving the secrets of immortality. (Poor them – and poor me!) Worse still. I even longed for the bright clothes, lack of regulation and licentious lifestyle enjoyed by my Rajneeshi friends who seemed always so happy, if temporarily doomed, and other friends whose karma thus far only required they attend regular pub gatherings and smoke dope whilst listening to the Velvet Underground and Bob Marley. If only I could be so temporarily doomed once more… As for ‘happy’, I had the one and only set of keys for happiness available to mankind (courtesy of some moustachioed Indian chap I had never met) and told everyone who would listen, but I can’t report that I was happy about it. Except maybe in those occasional moments in community satsang where the room rocks with relieved laughter on its collective floor-cushion as some gifted would-be comic in the chair deviates slightly from hard-line M-devotion-speak and wanders naughtily off-topic to entertain for a few precious moments. My half-decade of committed cult involvement was mostly coloured by feelings of insecurity and failure – not to mention the social embarrassment of having to go through this thing alone, now apart from former friends and family who no longer mattered in the GMJ worldview, but who had previously given my life some meaning… But Bryn got me thinking about long term cult legacies. I can think of a few character traits I have acquired, maybe more so than if I had never come under the poisoned breath - mostly for the better, I hope… - These days, a reflex hostility to anybody telling me what to do, unless (a) they have a knife to my throat, (b) I have asked for their advice, or (c), I have a contract of employment where they pay me for doing what I’m told within working hours, according to union regs etc.
- Distrust, nay, despise all gurus, whether spiritual, self-help or psychotherapeutic: anyone from Anthony Robbins to Sri Sai Baba who presumes an expert knowledge about the human condition without being able to explain the legitimacy of their expertise, ie., why I should listen to them, rather than they should listen to me?
- A love of scientific rationalism (computer programming was a factor in getting me out of cult-think back in the eighties, when Jim was still writing his bliss-out theses for law-school J ) much aided by Dawkins and Darwin around the same time, but which might not have otherwise happened if I’d been going about the ordinary young adult life stuff from the start.
- The area of psychology known as ‘social cognition’: how we deal with understanding the world, interpreting our ‘felt’ experiences and placing these in both a personal and social context. My belated further education these last fifteen years has been enriched by questions I probably would never have asked about so-called altered states, altered beliefs and so on… - No more magical thinking. Just dealing with cold grey reality with a nice cup of tea and a Guardian crossword is good enough for me (until the pub opens). Meanwhile, trying to surrender to anyone or anything or nothing makes no more sense to me now than it ever did. My lengthy commitment to Rawat was based upon trust and hope, but nothing like the real, felt happiness I'm sure I have read about somewhere, if I can go through those attic boxes again and track it down... Love, bliss and pranams,
Nige
Modified by Nigel at Sat, Nov 25, 2006, 15:27:52
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Thanks Nige
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wanted to puke on the gopis.
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how people who didn't want to get involved did and the different attitudes they brought with them. I'd lived through the licentious sixties and lucked into a lifestyle that any teenage boy would go for. It seemed like all the people a few years older than us lived these conventional lives and then there was the surf, sex, dope and rock'n'roll available for us with no effort required. We didn't storm the barricades and risk our lives or protest or anything, it just happened. Right age at the right time and place.
But actually I was a little conflicted about the whole thing. I really wanted to be a yogi. From the time I was 12 or 13 religion/spirituality/meditation/Indian vedantic religion was what I wanted to be involved in and to my astonishment after I'd given up hope it seemed to arrive at my doorstep. So while I was a premie I just passionately wanted to practise more than I actually did and experience more than I actually did and be more devoted than I actually was and while I never found young Rawat a source of joy and inspiration I found nearly everything else about DLM was.
And I feel a bit sorry for you and the other premies like you (Oh yes there were some out here as well). It must have been extremely difficult for you. And yet afterwards I could probably write that list if you hadn't though I might put in something about history, the enlightenment tradition and the importance and joys of bourgeois society and is there really anyone with expertise in the human condition? You can't go wrong with Darwin and Dawkins though I'm also very partial to Oliver Sacks and Norman Cohn as well.
And in the end, all's well that ends well!
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Nige,I can relate to that list of character traits you've acquired precisely, except for crosswords. Same cult, same exit tools ( Dawkins and Darwin and programming ). I was just a bit slower off the mark - shame.
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is 'cordial' cryptic enough ? I bet its not!
Modified by loaf at Sun, Nov 26, 2006, 12:45:21
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Moley was thinking along similar lines when I threw it at her earlier. I mean the 'lateral' bit is right, but that line of thought isn't...
Modified by Nigel at Sun, Nov 26, 2006, 12:58:12
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I do hope you are going to provide the answer....
orange - colour fruit valencia
squash - flatten sport pumpkin
See I thought about it, fruitlessly... .... .... one of the Osho people?..... ....
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This one comes from the Guardian's 'Araucaria', aka. John Graham, the eighty-something-year-old master of clue-setting... 'Poetic location sees surprisingly chaste Lord Archer vegetating' (3,3,8,12) Believe me, the solution is well worth waiting for. If somebody can crack it first, even better...
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The Old Vicarage Grantchester.
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I don't know whether you caught all the nuances of why I think this the best clue ever. You probably did - but for everyone else's benefit: [The clue again: ‘Poetic location sees surprisingly chaste Lord Archer vegetating.’] The answer is ‘The Old Vicarage Grantchester’ – a poetic location made famous by Rupert Brooke, with the memorable last couplet: ‘…Stands the Church clock at ten to three?
And is there honey still for tea?’ Araucaria’s clue would work well enough on a face-value analysis: ‘Poetic location’ [the meaning] ‘sees’ [equates to] ‘surprisingly’ [what follows is an anagram of the solution] ‘chaste Lord Archer vegetating’ [the letters you need]. A decent enough clue that would work regardless, even if… - ‘Lord Archer’ didn’t exist…
- The Old Vicarage Grantchester (the one in the Brooke poem) didn’t also happen to now be Sir Jeffrey Archer’s family home, and…
- At the time the clue was set, Archer didn't also happen to be awaiting sentencing on perjury charges in relation to a previous trial involving paying off a prostitute to leave the country, and so was, by now, ‘surprisingly chaste’ and ‘vegetating’.
Good luck or genius? Amazing clue either way…
Modified by Nigel at Sun, Nov 26, 2006, 14:44:32
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I may be pushing my luck here, lest JHB comes by and issues a warning. (But does he yet have the technology to shift an off-topic sub-thread to the other place?) But anyway here goes, and I promise this will be the last... This comes from the late 'Bunthorne': 'Amundsens' forwarding address' (4)
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okay, wish I could put my hands on that book again, or remember the answer! did enjoy the read though.
So Bhagwan is wrong then, damn.
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Beauty? No, really annoying!Pumpkin!
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Now have a go at the Araucaria clue in my reply to Lesley...
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Like a pickled pig, i am stuck between a jar & ham (8)
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>Like a pickled pig, i am stuck between a jar & ham (8) - Maharaji! I like it, but it breaks a clue-setting rule: you can't say 'I am' to mean '[the letter] "I" is'. More legit would be: >Like a pickled pig, I can be found between a jar & ham, getting seriously fucked! (The last three words also necessary as anagram indicator).
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I follow a backward, bad actor and colonial ruler. ( Maharaji ) new clue: Carols on a chair in past time.( 7 letters )
Modified by lexy at Tue, Nov 28, 2006, 17:53:24
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satsang ? Oooh this is a good game. Im not quite sure of the rules of setting them but have a go at this one : a mixup in a hangar with a crud nun spells trouble
Modified by loaf at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 01:05:37
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Groupie showing no regret? (4)
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groupie showing no regret Hmmm. Prem?
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Satsang.....you got it Loaf even though my clue didn't follow all the rules....at some point in the clue ( usually the beginning or the end) there should be the definition of the whole word. So my clue should have been "Carols on a chair in past time meeting." carols=sings on a chair=sits past time ( tense) =sang sat =satsang= a meeting I can't think of Nigel's "groupie" one. New clue: Duplicitous rat I praise in song. (4 letters)
Modified by lexy at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 11:28:18
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arti ! Im stuck on Nigel's. Stumped unless its Guru (cos its got 4 letters)
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That's right...Arti....."Duplicitous" indicated anagram = "rat I" and "praise in song = whole definition. Ah yes Loaf...possibly Guru..... G=groupie uru= you are you=no regrets ??
Modified by lexy at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 17:56:04
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"Groupies" with no regrets (rues)=Gopi It came over me as I did the washing up ( no...that's not a clue)
Modified by lexy at Thu, Nov 30, 2006, 02:28:49
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Im not sure if my brain is the right shape for cryptic crosswords.
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What a terrible plight - to swear and pranam to him! (4,3,5,5,)
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...it's too difficult....my brain atrophied in a cult. ...Hell and ? ? or f#ck the ??
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Dermot explains it all in 'Before I hit the Sack' down below somewhere. My brain too atrophied to be bothered to explain meself
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what is this, kindergarten? Even Prem Pal Singh Rawat would get that one. But forget that ...good to see you up and running ....now I'll disappear again
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Ha Ha Dermot. Good to see you too, even as ships that pass in the proverbial
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Yep, good to see you too in the ole' proverbial... Btw ...didn't mean to come across too arrogant re the crossy. I'm sure it'd slot into a Guardian crossword but probably at Rufus level as opposed to Bunthorne or Araucaria ....what do ya reckon? Then again, I'm really rusty these days ...also one thing I like about them is sometimes the solutions come full flood and other times you think you'll never get them then all of a sudden they appear out of the blue ...obvious when once so obscure. Kinda more satisfying that way, too. You know something ? ....one day I'll surprise you both by turning up in Liverpool on the way to or from somewhere ...wouldn't that be something ? ..a proverbial piss up all round. Seriously ...I mean it ...just don't ask me when! De do dat doh don't de doh ..
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Dinne be daft - arrogant, na, but I think you should set an Araucaria level clue - just to prove you know what you are talking about Yeh I like those eureka moments - there's plenty with Rufus and bloody none with Gordius - more like pulling teeth there. And seriously, yes, surprise us in Liverpool... I know what you mean...won't ask when... we are all ships that pass in the night (she mused philosophically).
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in fact nowhere near it ...but it's late and other excuses Anyway, here's the clue ...it's really easy actually...the definition is a giveaway... but there ya go....anyway, you'll have to explain every letter but that's easy too....so, start the stopwatch: ................................................................ But I've done it with a small famous car and in it, without the model, get punished by a god. (6,11) .............................................
Modified by Dermot at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 22:01:48
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And I still haven't got it. Trying to figure out if definition is 'But I've done it' or 'a god'. And whether the model, 'T' is supposed to be taken off 'get' or 'it'. I must be mad - its 20 past 4 in the morning... and all respectable folks are in their beds B***ocks - someone else is gonna get it before I get up. Hey Ho Oh and - just read your post above somewhere - Bon Voyage, Hoist the Main Sail and, in the immortal words of Sting 'Hope someone gets your message in a bottle' (or something like that)
Modified by Moley at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 22:33:18
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Haha ...there are some loose connections too ... but I'll explain those when it's solved. Yep, it's a late one tonight ...and you're not getting any more clues about the clue ...so there!
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I could be pulled up on one thing but I really don't think so ...it doesn't really hinder the solving though so I should be ok.
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Just modifying me post above, wishing you Bon Voyage etc. Ok... so I'll give it 5 more mins and then... snoooze
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Yep, sweet dreams ( or if you're anything like me lately " sweet weird sleep paralysis cum astral trips" haha) ...I'll return tomorrow with the solution anyway...
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Retribution!! It came to me in bed - so I had to get up again! All your fault Is the car a metro? with 'm' off... oh.. but no , where do the 'r's come from.. aaaghh
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First the loose connections. Obviously this being the PR forum I had to centre the answer on something Divine, haha. Looking at the thread above started by T and including Nige's " model"...I thought I'd throw those in too...but I guessed you'd get the "model T" reference immediately, but what the heck. Also, T's thread sort of intimated at some possible " Divine retribution" anyways... As for the clue and its solution ... = but I've done it WITH "a small famous car " ...famous car being Rolls Royce and a small one being RR AND "in it " without the model being ini solve the anagram of "butIvedoneitrrini " GET "Divine Retribution" which is the definition of " punished by a god". To be fair, I suppose I should have used " punishment" instead of "punished" and put the definition as GET " godly punishment" or something like that. That was the little " maybe, just maybe" I referred to. Well done though ... now I'm going to get 6 hours sleep if I can.
Modified by Dermot at Wed, Nov 29, 2006, 23:52:32
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I forgot to compliment you on how cleverly worded your clue was. The fact that I solved it in seconds is neither here nor there. And just to help Lexy along ..." what a terrible plight - to swear and pranam to him" " what a terrible PLIGHT means plight is mixed up ....and it's included with SWEAR because of the " to" and also PRANAM is included because of the " and " and all three together make an anagram leading ( to) him .... the " him" being Prem Pal Singh Rawat ... Easy to solve when you know how but, as I say, well crafted in the sense that it captures our history ...the plight we underwent...the oath we made and the pranams we offered. Better crafted than my effort anyway.
Modified by Dermot at Thu, Nov 30, 2006, 01:06:51
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As I was drifting off to sleep I suddenly realised how crap my effort was ....it lacking a certain context and cohesion etc. Now if I'd placed the clue physically in T's thread and related it to his opening post ( and maybe other posts in the thread) as if they were substitute other clues of a crossword ( yet not making such placement as obvious as hell) ....and if I had to throw in an obvious old hat " the model " -T ( car)- then made sure I confused matters by also referring to our model - T the poster - and, last but not least, ensured the clue sentence actually & cleverly related to the definiton instead of some mumbo jumbo about cars then maybe it would have reached Rufus level at least. The again, it was late ...and didn't I have other excuses too? hehe... Anyways, cioa for now ...
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for clue-writing compliments. Ciao to you
Modified by Moley at Thu, Nov 30, 2006, 10:48:45
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Certainly almost everything I've truly valued in my life, and even my relationship with my daughter and my mother (belatedly), have come from my experience of the 'void' and from the genuine side of humility and surrender, but not in terms of gm but in terms of my experience of,, and my practice of, k and the spiritual route, and where it took me afterwards coming from that route.
Certainly when i walked I thought I was saying goodbye to a lot of that terrain, especially since I could no longer practice the techniques consistently without the tainted image of big boy souring my mind.
Yet later within a year of the year that I walked, consciously and with a clear choice, I came upon one part of the underground hippy rave scene where the kind of experiential concerns and attitudes to communication and inter personal relationships directly overlapped what I had been experiencing and moving toward and through for nearly 2 decades. And it was then that I realized the value of my internal choices had set me up for, rather than takling the more mainstream route all my friends from teenage years had taken.
And even now, in fact it has happened again, this very week, the same as when I hit 50, coming upon another generation of younger people locally, very much in the underground dance scene, who can totally relate to that spirit and attitude, and in doing so have a space where a decrepit old git like me, older than their own parents has a space to fit in and be accepted, and be for real. Yet again I'm feeling a lot of gratitude, to my life and my choices of life approach.
Of course this would not work if I was still trying to include gm in the equation.
And when it came to gm, those values were irrelevant because I never got that real inspiration to practice and journey on that route, from him, but from treating the practice of satsang, service and meditation, within the spirit of a zen/taoist/shamanic journey, and without the concept of a creator.
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I envy it to for it is how I would have wished to have been allowed to test out meditation techs.: in the context of the somewhat transcendant life style I already knew.
Unfortunately in my trip to the East I brought rather more baggage back with me than I had intended. (Gross understatement.) I have never been able to get back to the world I loved in the sixties. Park concerts, Middle Earth, Roundhouse, U.F.O., Dancing.
But I got lime wire the other day and have been finally restoring my lost collections of Psychedelic Rock. I mention this because it was apparent in those early days that the music played a large part in inspiring my inner journies.
Stripped of the god creator guru thing inner consciousness is very a cool place.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Mon, Nov 27, 2006, 07:43:58
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If I had been stronger then I too would have taken on way more baggage, but as it was I was an over sensitive neurotic then, who handled pressure and insensitivity badly, and because I had accepted tghe way I was would not be intimidated into self loathing and whipping through guilt.
So rather amusingly my greatest weakness was my greatest strength.
And Saph, it is not too late, you should have a chat with Jethro re the trance scene, not my cup of tea, but they are much more tolerant of old hippies there, you would feel well at home
Remember Quintessence? Raja Ram, the main guy in the band is a cornerstone of the modern trance scene, as is Steve Hillage, who you might remember from Gong.
Re downloadfing music, also check out, http://www.slsknet.org/download.html
We must get together sometime
Would you be cool if I got your e-mail address from Jethro?
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Hi Hamzen, thanks for your reply, I'm sorry for the lack of response from me (this applies to everyone and anyone I have not emailed in reply, this last week,).
(I pulled my back out, last week, picking up my socks, on arising and have been almost totally immobilized for days. It's still painful but I can sit at the computer again for a short while, this morning.)
 I'm afraid I took on too much baggage in spite of the fact that I was already an over sensitive neurotic. I suppose, in a way, my weakness was also my strength, or vice versa; but in a different way.
Thanks for the good news and advice re: the music scene, it's nice to hear that a tolerance of old hippies exists out there... feeling well at home seems almost beyond my hopes..
Definitely ... "We must get together sometime" 
I would be perfectly cool with you getting my contact details from Jethro.
Thanks
Lp
Modified by Saph at Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 01:00:59
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I have just checked in (monday) to find all this beautiful writing here. Praise the Lord we are a deep bunch! Ta for the inspiration. I will join in a bit, later. Got to Mot the car, and get my woodburner repaired now. I havn't got a puter of my own as I live in a field and am willfully low tech. Parasitic some would say.
Love
Bryn
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