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Modified by turey at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 12:41:14
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For Armistice day.
Modified by Saph at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 12:21:40
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Modified by turey at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 12:52:58
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Yes, the Yanks most assuredly do understand Poppy Day....at least the Yanks I know. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Yanks who don't understand and who, quite frankly, would rather not. They belong to the "If we ignore that, it will go away" school.
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I note that you have rejected your connection with Maharaji (Prem Rawat), with whom you were deeply associated in earlier days, as we generally here have. What interests me is, as someone who 'gave Knowledge' back then in early times, how do you regard this now? What did people receive? What exactly was the Knowledge? You yourself gave this freely. There are many people around who received Knowledge from you. Did they receive some access to an inner special view on things or not? Was receiving Knowledge from you something special or not? How would you explain nowadays to those who believed in you and 'received Knowledge' that it might not have been what you told them? What exactly did you think Knowledge was when you gave it freely to others? What, frankly, do you think it was all about, and how would you answer one of your inductees who was now potentially trembling in their boots because the Mahatma who gave them supreme Knowledge ages ago, upon which they had based their life, was now saying it was all some misguided fantasy? Can you explain all this in some detail, please? How do you put it all together? Best wishes, Anthony
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Saph has already been raked over the coals for once being a Mahatma and being a person of influence in the cult. I am not saying the questions are not legitimate. But I want to once again say there are few if any of us here that don't feel shame over how they treated people or who they may have lured into the cult. Anyone who has ever posted here who had a position of some influence or authority within the cult has been the recipient of some anger from ex premies. I am always uncomfortable with that. Probably, most of all, it may stop people who would like to speak out who were once in postions of power. But, I also think its really unfair because I know I would have, and I think most premies I knew, traded places with Saph in an instant given the opportunity. I wanted to be around M and have darshan and be an initiator....I just didn't make the cut ( or last long enough to get cut ) . There but for the Grace of Darwin go I? If we are REALLY out of this stupid foolish cult it doesn't matter anymore who was "close" to M except that those people can complete a piece of the puzzle we never saw. My impression is Saph is a particularly nice sensitive person and these questions...well...I suspect just living with this stuff is hard enough I don't think he deserves to be raked over the coals because he was a good cult member and did what M wanted him to do. This isn't just directed at you...its more just a phenomenon I see here where it seems ok to depersonalize a "PAM" in a way we wouldn't an ordinary premie. Could there be a bit of residual jealousy? You had what I dreamed of in the cult and now we are the same and I am gonna make you pay? I feel really bad saying that...if you read back you'll see I am responding to other Saph, Dettmers, Donner, Finch...this always happened and it always disturbs me because it seems like maybe there is still a little work to be done in freeing oneself from thinking like a cult member if we think these premies were inherently much different than the rest of us. They were just us getting the golden darshan ticket?
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As he used to be a Mahatma and Knowledge giver. I'm not in the slightest talking about proximity to Maharaji or anything. I'm just asking him these particularly direct questions, which are surely of interest to all.
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the Mahatmas...most of them...were pawns too Some sick individuals like Jagdeo I think used the cult and M as much as he used them. But mostly I'd say Saph shouldn't feel any worse than I do for satsanging my best friend into the cult where she ended up getting raped ( literally ). And I do have to live with that.
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However, I'm talking simply about Saph, and that I think he should tell us all very clearly about the questions which I am asking.
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I completely agree with the message you're giving. I was particularly disturbed by the treatment John McGregor got here, and I think Renee Davis was turned away by the stuff that was thrown in his direction after John published one of his letters. However, the forum is a place where people should be able to express themselves freely, and that means that you have to take the rough with the smooth. One thing I've notices is that today's big, heart tearing discussion, is completely forgotten about in a few days, but when the posts have your name in them, it can hurt, even if it is ephemeral. Take care, and looking forward to reaching your neck of the woods sometime next year. anth the ephemeral mammal
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I have been thinking about this too. Having grown up the child of a Reverend myself I saw in operation how people project spiritual authority onto Priests, the best western equivalent to a Mahatma (they wear different clothes that set them apart, have a special relationship with God etc.) and I wonder if we had been from India, would we have held Mahatmas in the same awe. There is definitely a dynamic that goes on between priest/parishioner mahatma/chela shaman/normal person. They hold the spiritual authority given to them, and then feed back in some way to the petitioner. Sometimes this relationship can be healing, sometimes destructive. More to follow, I want to hear what LP may have to say. Stephen B
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Just on the spur of the moment, the first and possibly most honest answer to most of your questions that comes to mind as I finish off my Guinness and Ginster's Spicy Chicken Pastie, and noticing your post is: (and this is not my final answer, though you may have to wait an hour or two; or until my book comes out; to get a fuller answer
I don't know.
This may not be the place to answer this question fully or it may, I am no longer sure.
I am still trying to get a handle on where I stand on the: Maharaji and Knowledge are inseparable; or they can be disassociated and assessed separately; debate.
I know of one premie who tried to separate them, hating one: M. yet still wholeheartedly loving the other: K. Unfortunately he is not in body at this time, to consult. Disturbing though his views were at times to me, I had to admit that there are far fewer arguments against meditating upon the techniques, (which were clearly around long before Maharaji attempted to minister to planet earth), than there were against adopting Maharaji for a yoga teacher.
While my departed friend and I discussed for long hours when he lived, the relative merits and demerits of knowledge as a tool to living consciously, there was one subject upon which we were always in unanimous agreement.
That was the ineffectual performance of Mr. Prem Rawat in delivering this knowledge and the degree to which we had grown to dislike him. I still observe, with or without reluctance, the truth of a phrase that was bandied around at that time: (which has always struck a chord of terror for me.)
"You might leave the knowledge but the knowledge will not leave you."
Given that it is based largely around breath and other life signs, it is of course unlikely, while I live, that it should.
And here I have to turn to my own experience, having, (in common with us all,) only my own frame of reference to call upon.
I found value in the techniques, but I came to them as a practicing student of Pranayama, having already in my own heart adopted a yogic lifestyle and a renunciate attitude, and having had some extremely revelatory psychedelic experiences and perceptions previously. In addition, after I received the techniques, I saw that I had already encountered them all, (some by accident, not always my own,) others through research , study and the other babas and sadhus I encountered on my travels.
Maharaji and his close followers managed to convince me that he had some sort of official divine right to be considered the figurehead of the Knowledge. Now it is different, this knowledge tends to be associated with Maharaji, it no longer, for me, has the same free associations. Even so, in concentrating, focusing energy, or feeling a sense of awe and wonder; love or even oneness, it comes into play, especially through the breath.
At the time when I gave it, I tried to pass on to others the experience I had of it, not what I was told by maharaji that it was supposed to be.
I perceived, early on, that he had no grasp of it. I guess I got conned into thinking he had some official divine ownership of the techniques, in spite of a growing suspicion that yogically he was perfectly unskilled. (Maybe I figured that he was young and was destined to grow into it.)
This took time, and when I saw flaws in him as a teacher, I stopped initiating on his behalf.
The question of where, if at all, the techniques fit into our life is a question we each must answer for ourselves. I have for several decades felt personally responsible for the less than 100 people who received "Knowledge" at my hands.
From experience in trying to continue to "be there" for many of those over the decades: and in some cases having sacrificed major parts of my life in an effort to help those who have found me with all things quasi spiritual which they might have been going through or gotten themselves into, I now feel, without shrugging duty, that I bare no more responsibility, a view expressed to me by many prominent posters here. That is not to say I would not set myself wholeheartedly upon the task of trying to help them again, if I encounter them. The "help" would of course be different and aided greatly by lessons learned from the other presences here.
As far as the outrageous and arrogant claims regarding the Universe and Maharaji, we were all duped, in my present view. Though meditation was always my interest, I am personally sad to see how he used my sincere and innocent interest in knowing more of self and reality through yoga to insinuate himself more and more into my life, and his face upon the inner luminescence. And I deeply regret how he used my interest in words, and my desire to be of some use to humanity, to spread his lies to the world.
Where do the lies end? As far as his own position goes: not there.
But as far as the knowledge goes, it is still possible that it is what one makes of it. I can see how it could be a useful part of a yogi's portfolio. Again as far as general humanity is concerned, the only answer I can offer sincerely, is: I don't know. For myself, it is probable that there will always be an unpleasant association with Maharaji about the knowledge. If the techniques are valuable in identifying inner conscious life forces, he has done me a disservice, for it is unlikely that I will be ever able to practice them without thinking of him, or without a sense of obedience to him: something I now find abhorrent.
I would tell them unequivocally to discard all reverence or following of Maharaji, but I would not be so hasty in telling them to discard the ancient fragments of yoga practice. Perhaps in context some may have a physiological, psychological or even a life awareness enhancing value: at least the breath one. They are on the net now, in the public domain where they should always have been. To use them to manipulate the human race into subservience and servitude is gross misuse and, in my opinion: diabolical: or at least hideous delusion.
I hope this is a start. I intend to expand upon this subject but not here, necessarily.
I hope this is at least a partial answer to your very relevant questions.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Mon, Nov 13, 2006, 19:19:44
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I am sure that Anthony's questions were sincere and with no hidden agenda of blame. Your answer was thoughtful and sensitive as always. For those of us who were never at the centre of Divine Light Mission yet who somehow bought in to being a devotee and believed all the lies, it is truly difficult to destroy the illusion that has insulated our lives for so long. We only ever saw the "staged" version of the LOTU. Your "behind the scenes" and personal insights provide a healthy and down to earth dose of reality. Warm regards.Lexy.
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Saph, you lazy bastard!
But I was pretty sure that I'd get nothing but abuse and maybe get thrown off the forum again cause people mightn't appreciate the humourous intent. I was just reading about you this morning in the New York Times when you sat in the 4th or 5th level of heaven at Millenium - the lone Western mahatma. But really, 100 initiations? Hell when I was initiated Padarthanand did 30 of us in one go and he probably would have revealed the "Knowledge of God" 7 days a week if there had been enough people willing to take the plunge.
So who were the "revealers of God" world record shattering mahatmas? If close enough to 150,000 "premies" were initiated in those few years before Mata Ji denounced her playboy son for adopting a despicable, nonspiritual way of life including a fondness for expensive homes and sports cars, drinking alcoholic beverages, eating meat instead of remaining a vegetarian, and showing too much interest in sex. And as he was a red-blooded booze-sloshing, meat-eating young 16 year old boy can you imagine how much more interest in sex he was having and not showing? That interest in sex that was deep, deep within inside of him! I don't think I finished the question as I got caught up in the Prem and Mata Ji question. So who was initiating all those thousands of peeople if it wasn't you?
Modified by ocker at Mon, Nov 13, 2006, 21:57:54
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Your guess is probably far better than mine, Ocker. My actual knowledge giving career lasted less than two months in the summer that Maharaji was in Fairfield? road, Chelsea and Golden Manor, West London. His first visit to the West.
My forte was "satsang". At least I called it that. I doubt whether the mission honchos thought of it as real satsang.
Problem was my fairly innocuous brand of hippie rhetoric, seasoned with obligatory, if small, mention of Maharaji, drew the crowds.
My previous history of yoga practice and inward 60's revelations disguised my uselessness for deeper indoctrination. I was like a rake to rake them in and then unfortunately I lost touch with them.
I did not know, at first, the extent to which the non-yogic special teachings about surrender, donations, non-questioning, mindless adoration, etc.... were later applied, in order to capture the minds, ("souls?" , wills and hearts of novitiates in exchange for mediocre service opportunities etc.
Before the summer was over, so, in that sense, was I. I'll not go into the pain and self doubt I entered into then and have in some ways not gotten over to this day. Unfortunately this still left a guilt-ridden, semi-lobotomized, ex-mahatma, hippie-half-premie, wandering around the planet, half-lost, with more opportunities for hyphen-use. One who was often still asked to perform, (but with dying conviction) by unwitting premie houses and communities around the west. I knew no other job, nor have I discovered in life, to any profitable extent, any other skill, that seemed peculiarly my own.
I can practically count, by calculation, in excess of a thousand that I have sent along, tagged as "ready", to Gurucharanand and, to a lesser degree Prakash Bai, when I was asked, briefly on a few occasions, to handle knowledge selections. Those two unconditional friends still believed in my usefulness in this area.
But in my travels I know I have given my form of "satsang" to many, and have a fond and sad memory of many halls filled with many beautiful smiling faces, some might be reading here now, I hope. As Sita Ram has revealed on the forum: to the mission in India, I was soon regarded as a useless spaced-out hippie. It took longer to sink in, in the West, that's all.
My apologies again to all who suffered inner harm from these dreadful 20th century developments, and to you Ocker, if I have unfairly judged you in our past posting shenanagons. I am certainly enjoying your recent posts very much, you have a finely developed writing style.
Kind regards
Lp
Modified by Saph at Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 03:30:50
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Yes, that's a good answer, Saph. Thanks for summarising your views so neatly and relatably. You seem to me to have the right balance towards people you initiated. It's a long time ago, and they have had much time to make their own judgements re Knowledge and M, but you would always talk it over if anyone approached you. Thanks for the thoughtful response, and best wishes for the future. Anthony
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As you know, I'm with Susan, Anth, and John on the whole repetition thing when people ask you questions that you've already answered here many times. You certainly have apologized enough for a few lifetimes. If John is willing, maybe you can place a blurb somewhere on EPO or here, or in the journey page -- wherever -- so that you have a link to the posts you've already made that explain where you stand today. It may take a little bit of work to pull it together, and it doesn't have to be lengthy -- just enough to provide a link to somewhere in case anyone who doesn't/hasn't been reading the forum can read something about you, at the same time saving you having to revisit the same issues again and again. Just a suggestion, not really advice... Hope you're well, Cynthia
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... A sort of basic statement to all premies about where I stand today.
(This seems to go a little hand in hand with my idea previously, of critiquing the words I wrote that have been put up on EPO from the early days.)
But maybe just a short and clearly worded statement of my present position and view, a sort of letter to all premies and ex-premies. It actually feels appropriately OK to apologize when new levels and persectives of undesirable results come to light. But broken record syndrome is certainly undesirable.
I'll give it some thought, and speak to John.
Wishing you well
Lp
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I still observe, with or without reluctance, the
truth of a phrase that was bandied around at that time: (which has
always struck a chord of terror for me.)
"You might leave the knowledge but the knowledge will not leave you."
My experience of the initiation was one of horror, not bliss. I thought it was 'true', because I recognised the golden doughnut, but the thought of spending the rest of my life concentrating on Holy Name filled me with dread. Like looking at a whitewashed wall for ever & ever & ever.
Nevertheless I perservered on & off for 28 yrs. Now that I'm slowly getting to know myself in Socrates' sense, I'm perversely quite proud of that, as it shows my Stoic pigheadedness in a reasonably good light, & I do tend by nature towards that philosophy.
I'd suggest that the terror residue comes from an unexamined belief that spirituality is based on feeling rather than will, & whilst, being an agnostic, I wouldn't therefore recommend the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola as an antidote, I have to say that there's a whole opposite tradition of thinking about this stuff.
Holy Name comes in quite useful on long drives, but then it always did, except now my destination isn't the holy lotus feet, just some old friend's house where we can shoot the breeze.
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Hi PatD,
What do you mean by 'recognised the Golden Doughnut?'.
I was pretty horror-struck as well but for different reasons. I thought is this all it is?
I didn't "get" Holy Name in the initiation session but it started to come together after a few weeks. I explained the whole thing to myself by assuming that "God" would get bigger and easier (or deeper and whatever spiritual sounding words one might use) over the years and produce the consciousness "upgrading" that father Rawat and young Rawat used to speak about.
I much prefer thinking or talking or music these days and as far as I can tell so do premies. I can't recall any premie ever leaving a party or a good meal or drinks and whipping off for a spot of 3rd technique, can you?
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Hi Ocker
I didn't "get" Holy Name in the initiation session but it started to come together after a few weeks. I explained the whole thing to myself by assuming that "God" would get bigger and easier (or deeper and whatever spiritual sounding words one might use) over the years and produce the consciousness "upgrading" that father Rawat and young Rawat used to speak about.
Pretty much my own rationalisation afterwards, too.
The 1st time I went to satsang it was 'blind' so to speak, as the only info I had about it came from a rambling letter from a friend in India. I wasn't seeking anything & only went to keep someone else company. I didn't understand what was being talked about & wondered why they had a roneo picture of Chairman Mao on display. Many of the people seemed to be high out of their heads on something though, which interested me, don't ask why  , so I went back a couple of weeks later.
On that occasion I understood that Chairman Mao was in fact GMJ & could show God within, thusly explaining the high, so I went back again a couple of more times until I understood that to get the K it had to be asked for, & more importantly that to be chosen one had to essentially have one's face recognised by a mahatma.
So I thought about it for another couple of weeks & decided that I'd give it a go, on the basis that surely anyone would know whether or not it was a con.
More fool me.
Then I went down to London for 4 days, staying with a friend, & hung out at Golden Manor. I soon realised that I'd misunderstood the process, & that the asking had to be recognised as genuine in some mysterious way, by the mahatma. Seeing as I couldn't get that one together, when Mohani Bai called out the next group of 12 or so for initiation, I stood up with them. She looked me in the eye & asked if she'd chosen me. She hadn't, but I looked straight back, lied, & said, ''yes''.
When the Light tek was revealed, I had a sudden recollection ; it was a snapshot of memory ; I was in a green pram with an uncomfortable ridge across it ; there was the golden doughnut inside my head which made everything ok, & which I'd look at until I fell asleep. I also remembered that the doughnut had stopped being there at some point, that its absence pissed me off, & made me cry.
I left the session in a state of confusion, made worse by the fact it was impressed upon us that we should immediately go & kiss the feet in thanksgiveness, of GMJ, who was at that moment sitting in Divine Glory in the bedroom next door. I hadn't been paying too much attention to the detail beforehand, & thought the rhetoric was metaphorical rather than literal.
Having been brought up to believe that people who demanded others kiss their feet should be shot, & filled with a sudden superstitious terror that he'd know I'd lied to the mahatma, & so on & so fucking forth, I ducked down the stairs, & so missed the darshan experience of several lifetimes, lol, only I didn't understand what the word meant until several months later.
It wasn't funny at the time of course, & got much worse for many yrs afterwards.
Anyway, I went straight home & subjected my poor mother to a close forensic interrogation on the subject of the pram, without telling her why, initially.
She was astounded of course, but unfortunately confirmed all the details as being correct, many of which I've left out of this short account. She'd got rid of the pram when I was 10 months old, long (or short, who knows) after I'd stopped seeing the doughnut.
That's the reason I knew it must be true, & unwillingly, with mucho guilt fear & loathing, I entered into the world of the Lord of the Universe.
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Well if truth isn't stranger than fiction! What an incredible story. Just when I thought none of this stuff could surprise me ever again.
Well my grandson is 10 months old give or take a few weeks and I'm going to pay very close attention to him whenever he's in a pram but prams these days don't have an uncomfortable bone in their bodies, they're like super hi-tek, and I'm sure his mother is not going to allow me to stick an uncomfortable ridge under his back and we never leave him in the pram anyway, someone's always got him in their arms. Maybe if I set up a video camera filming his eyes at all times I might get a shot of the GOLDEN DONUT reflected in his cornea. Science beware, new breakthrough on the way. Proof that Prem Rawat is the Lord of the universe.
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I can think of loads of times, at chill-out events, festivals, drum'n'bass nights, dubstep nights where the feeling triggered by the quality of the music has been so profound those states came back to me as strongly as ever they did when meditating as a career path.
And that feeling was increased because it wasn't unnacceptable behaviour to go within, for want of a better phrase, since loads of othgers were too, probably more drug inspired than mine, but no less relevant to my eyes.
That was much truer in the early nineties when the vibe was that much sweeter, and so were the e's, (god I wish I'd tried them earlier), as it was my e sojourn was very short lived.
Yet just this year I came upon it again at dubstep nights where being a dub zombie meditating on the bass was the norm.
In terms of goa trance nights (never really my scene, too new agey) and Big Chill festivals, seen loads of people openly doing meditation, and no-one batted an eyelid.
I hated that hiding of the surface, keep it all hidden away vibe gm cultivated, so unnatural, and so destructive.
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Hi Saph, Fantastic responce! You took the time to respond very thoughtfully, esp. when you didn't have to. You have my respect. I'm posting this attachment because you mentioned your thought or question... Is Maharaji and Knowledge inseparable? It's a good debate topic. What I think is this... I can still breath my own breath without him and still get blissed out if and when I want to. However, the association with Him needs to be totally cut or there could be a dangerous relapse from all the cult programing over the years into thinking it's His grace. Too bad Prem Rawat perverted our own breath and much more. But ofcourse Maharaji or Prem Rawat has told us this ... "He Is the Knowledge". Best Thoughts... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Wed, Nov 15, 2006, 00:33:31
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Thankyou for your encouraging words.
Yes that "it's his grace" thing was a particularly poisonous idea. Credit for any achievement, good fortune or success in our life was handed over to him.
Any problems we encountered were seen as our punishment for failing to surrender everything to him.
I still kick myself for being so easily taken in. What a mega rip off Rawat is.
Our breath, our life itself, our love and loyalty: the most important and beautiful things we share in this mysterious experience of human life on earth: he stole.
A mere child, naive and inexperienced, he glibly assumed to take us over, strangers from lands he knew nothing of, but what he learned in school, or from a globe: just on the strength of what his father said or words he thought he heard within: or the outmoded traditions of his own distant culture.
Were was he when self doubt was handed out?
Seeing "knowledge" as basically our own life signs, how could I have been so gullible as to not react, like one of those wonderful "bongoes" I always got a secret rush of pleasure from seeing, who every now and then, stood up yelling in his satsang, and got quickly dragged out of the hall.
He might think he can't live without goomraji, but what right did he have to pass his affliction onto us?
How did I sit there nodding off, while he said, effectively, that we could live without our breath, but not without him?
What stupid, misguided, arrogant, malignant poppy cock!
Best wishes,
Lp
Modified by Saph at Wed, Nov 15, 2006, 01:14:26
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Anthony,Click 'Find' and enter 'Saph' and you can read his posts from when he came out. It will save him having to repeat himself. John
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Hi John, Can you send me Saph's e-mail address? My e-mail address is still the same. I was offline for a while (my computer died) but now I can access mail once again, thanks to my new pc. Thank You John... Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 20:57:16
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Saph, sorry for the long delay... I don`t read n post here as much as I did. I just want to say in response to your post below... Recovery may be painfully slow but it is inevitable. I`m finding great healing in my music, and Richard Dawkins new book, `The God Delusion`, is an excellent read on the road to recovery. Good response to Anthony`s questions. Warmest Regards
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Thanks, it's better to think that recovery is inevitable. Healing is a natural life process and response to damage.
Music is on hold a bit, I've become quite externally orientated this autumn. Like rediscovering the earth.
I have all sorts of letters from Amazon, confirming and congratulating my purchase of The God Delusion, but no book forth coming... it's an even bigger delusion than I thought.
best of thoughts 
Ananda Giri
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Apostasy, renunciation, change, priesthood, betrayal, anger, availability, climbing down, re-building, re-assessing,etc etc all handled and acknowledged imo publicly, with openness and respect. Brilliant.
Love
bryn
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Well said Bryn. I thought the same, and was rather glad Anthony asked those questions because Saph's replies included different information to previous posts. Thanks again Saph.
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to the veiled, murderous, hole-and-corner, intellectual chicanery that I am used to assosciating with religious dialectic-I think this is basically a religious discourse here isn't it?
Anyway much respect to all.
Love
Bryn
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