|
|
|
I can't see this file ( I have seen other pdf's ). Is the file broken - it seems to download, Acrobat fires up, then nothing. Is it just me?
|
|
|
|
It seems to work OK. Try updating Acrobat, older versions may not handle the graphics. N
|
|
|
|
That did it - thanks Nik.
|
|
|
|
...students, prisoners and hospitalised - so not a lots changed in the last 30 years then. Except now its much more calculated and co-ordinated. Notice a call from Steve Brenmen "calling all students at university now, or graduated in the last six years. we need your help" Nowadays, instead of satsanging them out of degree courses into becoming slaves in ashrams, young students are seen as the rich pickings for future cult income. One flaw in that plan dear devotees - it's called the internet. Students just love to google. If not already, it won't be long before there's some serious questioning about some of that "staff training session" at Russells Hall Hospital either. That just leaves the prisoners then. J.S.C.A. Bunny |
|
|
|
|
Nurse: (draws back curtains): Morning, my luv, How are you feeling today? Premie Ji: (with a small whimper): Er, well it’s still hurting… Nurse: Let’s take a look at you. Does it hurt there? Premie Ji: Aaaargh!..ow!.ouch..! Nurse: Well the doctor says it’s a perforated duodenal ulcer. We’ll soon have it sorted, luv, don’t worry… Premie Ji: What are they going to do? Nurse: Well, you’re having an endoscopy this morning, after the blood transfusion. Then if your haemoglobin’s ok, they’ll put a tube down through your gullet and into your stomach and spray some adrenaline and …. Hey, don’t worry, you’ll be under sedation … you look like you’ve seen ghost. Try and calm down a bit – there’ll be a cup of tea along in a moment. Oh no, I forgot, you’re ‘nil by mouth’, aren’t you? Premie Ji: (groans, smiles weakly): Can I have some more painkillers? Nurse: Hmm, we’ll have to see what the doc says about that. He’ll be doing his rounds in a couple of hours time. Hey who’s that in the photo – relative of yours? Premie Ji: Er, no, that’s Prem Rawat. Nurse: Who’s Prem Rawat? Premie Ji: He’s this sort of teacher, he’s, er, come with a message of inner peace… Nurse: Well you could sure use a bit of that, I reckon. You’re like a bundle of nerves… Premie Ji: (smiles weakly) ‘Ha-ha…’ Nurse: (examines picture more closely) He doesn’t look too healthy either. So what’s this message of peace about? And what’s the mugshot for? Premie Ji: Well it’s this place inside yourself you can go. I keep the photo there to remind me to go inside, sort of like meditation, but not exactly, you’d have to listen to his message to understand… Nurse: I see – He’s certainly no pin-up, that’s for sure. Does it hurt there…? Premie Ji: Aaaargh..ow..ouch.. Oh please – do you have to? Nurse: Chin up, you poor wounded soldier – there’s a lot of worse things it might have been… Hmm, tell you who that guy reminds of: that ‘boy-God’ guru from years ago. Maha-raj Gee, I think his name was… Premie Ji: (brightening like a pale sun in winter): so you’ve heard of Maharaji…? Nurse: Oh, yes, I’ve certainly heard of him. My big sister followed him for a while… Premie Ji: Er, so you must know a bit about his, er, message of inner peace already? Nurse: Well, we all thought she was nuts. Used to worship him like he was Lord of the Bloody Universe. In fact, that’s what he called himself: Lord of the Universe, brighter than a thousand suns, come to save us all, peace on earth and all that – what a friggin joke, if you look at the state of the planet… Does it hurt there…? Premie Ji: Eee-aargh-snuffle whimper… Nurse: Is this Rawat guy still Lord of the Universe, then? Premie Ji: Prem Rawat never made those claims. That was just the Indian trappings that some of his early followers used to attach to him. And it was blown out of all proportion by the media. His actual message has always been very simple, and the same message. There’s this place inside that he can show you, where you can truly be at peace and… Nurse: (strokes her chin, looking up, remembering)…’go from darkness to light…from death to immortality’. That’s what my sister used to tell us. You dedicate your life to Maha-raj Gee and his so-called knowledge takes you from death to immortality. There’s a few on the cancer ward would be happy to hear the good news, if it’s not a load of baloney… Premie Ji: Er, I don’t think Prem Rawat himself ever said anything like that… Nurse: O yes he did, my luv, my sister had to bow down on the carpet and ask the guru to take her ‘from death to immortality’. You don’t forget something like that, when your own sister is telling you. Premie Ji: That was just the people around Maharaji – just an Indian tradition – a way of showing respect. Thankfully Maha… Prem Rawat did away with all that – and it’s so much more beautiful – just that simple message of inner peace. Nurse: Wasn’t he in charge, then? I remember his followers used to obey his every word. Telling everyone the Lord is on the planet. Hmm, he looks more like businessman than a guru, these days. And he doesn’t look at all well. Unfit, puffy eyes…So what’s his so-called message of peace then? Premie Ji: Well, you could watch an introductory DVD that helps explain it… Nurse: Why can’t you tell me? I thought you said the message was simple… Premie Ji: It is simple – but it’s not something people understand until they are properly prepared.. Nurse: Are you calling me stupid, luv? I can understand a simple message as well as the next idiot. Premie Ji: Well, in a way, its not so much a message as an experience. It’s this place inside that Prem Rawat allows you to go to. A state of peace and contentment that is always there no matter what is happening in your life. Nurse: Like getting sick or being in hospital? Premie Ji: Absolutely… Nurse: So why do you keep asking for more pain-killers?
|
|
|
|
I'm up for this as long as Bunny is my nurse!!!
|
|
|
|
Joking aside – there’s a serious issue here that the cult has never properly addressed, and that’s the question of pain. Rawat has always portrayed human misery as being the result of our crazy minds looking for satisfaction in the things ‘of this world’ (drink, drugs, Malibu mansions etc.) and has been wilfully blind to the fact that probably the worst suffering that people experience in their lives comes about through no fault of their own. Physical pain is the obvious example. I expect most people here will have – however briefly, experienced relentless, excruciating pain of some sort. And if they had K at the time, will also know that meditating or ‘going inside’, is not only useless, but impossible. I think that is one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that however good your K experiences might be, they were definitely ‘of the body’ and nothing to do with connecting to M's spiritual sunshine zone beyond the reach of earthly misfortune and misery. All that ‘you are not your body / you are not your mind’ stuff was just a pile of dog’s doos. And for EV to consider targeting hospitals for propagation – where so many people are suffering and vulnerable is no better than shameful. If these cultists weren’t so deluded, you would have to call it cynical.
Modified by Nigel at Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 06:21:48
|
|
|
|
My guess would be that this initiative is an attempt to prove that they provide a 'Public Benefit' ahead of the new Charities Bill becoming law.
The LOTU didn't become the man he is today without his top minions paying careful attention to the small print.
|
|
|
|
I disagree because in the 70s I had a very painful abcess in my left armpit. It was lanced with a local anaesthetic but I had to attend the hospital every day for a week to have it dressed. This involved a daily opening of the wound (one inch deep) and re-packing it with a bandage. It was very painful but by meditating I could distance myself from the pain, much to the amazement of the nurses. (The Chinese burn principle - try it) One of the main problems with K is its ability to detach one's consciousness from the body.
In Buddhism, Taoism and Tantra the meditative experience is based in the body. In an 'eat your greens before you get your ice cream' knd of way. The great beauty of Tantra (literally meaning 'loom') is that it deconstructs belief systems and doesn't replace them!
|
|
|
|
I guess pain is a very subjective thing and it's not easy to compare one person's tolerance with another's. And there's certainly evidence that various distraction methods can help us distance ourselves from the pain - ie., people under hypnotic suggestion often report increased pain tolerance (but other experiments have shown that non-hypnotised subjects can duplicate the same effect.) And then there's the possibility of natural pain-killing endorphins in the brain getting triggered. (I heard a radio interview with a 7/7 survivor who I think had lost a leg in one of the tube bombings and said she felt absolutely no pain at all at the time...) I am not convinced that one's consciousness is ever 'detached' from the body - more a case of the part of your brain that registers pain disengaging from the areas that house your conscious mind. Or maybe I was never devoted enough?
|
|
|
|
I have no idea either - just reporting in.
|
|
|
|
Everyone here once received so-called K. Everyone here also knows what pain is like... Did having Rawatso's Knowledge help at all?
Modified by Nigel at Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:36:07
|
|
|
|
Did having Rawatso's Knowledge help at all? I have to qualify my statement above. I'm a polished expert in inducing self-hypnotic states and Knowledge helped me to exacerbate that ability. I exploited it but that doesn't mean that K is good. For me it was quite the opposite. That's why I see K as very detrimental because the holy name and nectar technique were vehicles I used to enhance the dissociative states, which again were not at all good for me. But, what Rawat's promoting in hospital propagation involves indoctrination along with the techniques. That's never a good thing. Why? Becasue it's a personality cult, Rawat gives many false promises, and given that the techniques do produce some kind of experiential affect only further induces someone to buy into his bullshit religion.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:43:18
|
|
|
|
thank you for a great post!
|
|
|
|
I thought it did for small physical pain where I could sort of detach myself from the pain, but I think I could have done that anyway. I can only remember one persistent almost unbearable pain which was a rare ear infection against which the usual antibiotics were ineffective. The doctor initially suggested I take ibuprofen for the pain while the antibiotics were supposed to work, but they only helped for about an hour, and I could only take them every four hours. I found some relief from crawling on the floor and hitting my ear against the side of the armchair, but Knowledge was no use at all.I also found Knowledge useless for mental pain. John.
|
|
|
|
No, not for physical pain, but then I've never trusted doctors for that either. Their painkillers aren't strong enough. What you need is smack, which to get in my case, requires keeping in touch not with the upwardly mobile Mr. Rawat, but with some of the unfortunates who drifted away from the feet donkey's years ago, yet still believe.(sorta)
As for mental pain, I would say that it does serve a purpose, not that it reduces it in the slightest, only that it underlines the futility of trying to drown it out with painkillers.
But then the same is true of any religious belief.
|
|
|
|
My bloody teeth have always been a problem, and me being a bit "highly strung" the anaesthetics are not as good as they should be. Dentistry always comes with inner light agogo. No reduction in pain, just pain and visions! No consolation at all. Love Bryn
|
|
|
|
Nah! any real problem or sickness had to be resolved first. I had to be at peace before I could feel 'that' peace iron-willed and ever detached Tim
|
|
|
|
An aberration, no doubt: I had 4 natural childbirths with no pain, only bliss. All focused on breath. The first 3, in Holy Name. The last, only focused on the breath (sans Maharaji). One doctor told me I must have a very high pain threshold. No one should watch me giving birth. A mother at the City of Love and Light(COLL) told me that premies were unable to experience post-partum depression. I never did. (Talk about easily suggestible! Gullible is my middle name!) Also, dental surgery with breath only--ascended into light and bliss. Feels to me like dissociation from the body. Not sure Maharaji taught me this--could've been childhood abuse and neglect. Often. as a premie married to a drug-addicted, manic, abusive bongo premie, I experienced light and bliss and fulfillment despite the most despicable, horrible life situations. Other premies would tell me later they couldn't imagine how I maintained sanity in my situation. As crazy as it sounds, my belief and foundation in Maharaji carried me through those awful periods. Then again, if I hadn't been so passive, so eager to believe... if I'd had some self esteem at the get go, I never would've fallen for my first husband, nor Maharaji. Ah well, live and learn. I only hope I can die as well as I give birth. The big O
Modified by Ophelia at Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 22:10:13
|
|
|
|
what a wonderful post, I want to meet you!
|
|
|
|
Thou art too kind. After reading the other responses to this thread, I fear I was the most deceived of premies.
|
|
|
|
you mean when the pain's so bad even the tv doesn't work?
I am amazed sometimes how quite bad pain can disappear from consciousness with a good distraction.
I was told by a nurse that they categorise pain into mild moderate severe and extreme.
So on that basis I guess I mean moderate rather than bad.
When it came to broken bones, which are classified as severe, I found meditation worse than useless.
It was about 24 hrs until I had enough pain killers in me to achieve pain management. The first thing I tried was meditation - I didn't do it for long, it actually made me more subject to the pain and I quickly realised i needed to be there for myself. By the time it was evening I knew I was not the only person facing a night of pain and that there were others worse off than me.
A certain sort of stoicism takes place, the alternative of losing it of being subject to the pain too horrible to contemplate, so no meditation, or tv for that matter.
I could hear the cries of those whose stoicism failed, who had abandoned themselves, mostly though it was quiet and the nurses padded around weaving a little magic.
There is this shaman thing called flying with god where claws are hooked into a shamans chest and strips of rawhide attached from which he is then spun around and around.
Now the thing is I wonder how fab his experience would be if they didn't stop - eventually he would have to start fighting for his very survival, I doubt he'd just stay blissed out until dead.
|
|
|
|
>There is this shaman thing called flying with god where claws are hooked into a shamans chest and strips of rawhide attached from which he is then spun around and around.< Well strictly speaking not shamans, who are/were specific to Siberian cultures but yes there's a lot of that skin hanging piercing stuff around. These days not only Native American and Indian sadhus - there's a fondness for it in certain clubs in the UK, made popular by a band who perform it live on stage. Human skin is pretty tough and below the nerve endings not very responsive to pain. N
|
|
|
|
check out the new Spielberg TV series 'Into the West'. I knew a sorcerer who did that 'hooks in the percs' thing and he told me that when they tore and he fell to the ground, he went into God consciousness. I said to him that there must be easier ways!
|
|
|
|
Hey - thanks all for prompt responses - makes you realise how many people are reading but not usually posting. Good to see some old familiar names still about. Interesting replies... tommo/Tim sums up my own experience perfectly: >Nah! any real problem or sickness had to be resolved first. I had to be at peace before I could feel 'that' peace. That's the eternal premie paradox, isn't it? Do whatever it takes to make yourself feel good, then attribute your well-being to Rawat. I can so relate to Bryn's comments on toothache too - some pains are simply too much, whatever you dose yourself up with: paracetemol, codeine, alcohol etc. I wonder how the teenage Maharaji coped with his infamous ulcer? I remember we used to have these interminable satsang retreats when the whole community would take their sleeping bags and beragons and hole-up in the largest available building for the weekend. Food would inevitably be some pseudo-Indian lentil+chickpea affair (the kind you'd never find in a decent curry house). The effect on my digestive system was similarly predictable - a build up of gases that feels like the full extent of your intestines are swelling up like car tyres. The pain could be almost crippling as you sat on your cushion, trying to stay 'inside' and focused on satsang. It caused all sorts of niggling doubts as to how I would ever get from death to immortality... Actually Maharaji once gave a satsang (maybe Hilltop knows where/when?) where he was chiding premies for their complacency in thinking they'd got everything sorted. It went along the lines of: 'When are you going to start properly dedicating to K? - on your deathbed?' His next line I remember verbatim: 'What if you are having convulsions?' Typically, he left the issue hanging in the air, with no further explanation, but the implicit message was: you better spent every single breath from now on focused on SS&M if you want to avoid a nasty death. Yuk! - talk about fear-mongering.
|
|
|
|
Great memories, wonderful weekends, wish they'd never ended - well that's how I felt then. Seriously, but it takes all kinds.
Did meditation relieve pain for me? Only when it was the sort that pretty well any reasonable distraction helps.
Sickness, migraines, fevers always brought me much closer to feeling the energy flow that I concentrated on in "Holy Name". Now naturally I never knew if this was the beginning of the connection with the "real" universal energy deep within inside that is keeping us alive but I assumed so as it tended to match the backwards and forwards arm motion often used to describe it by others. Over the last 25 years then this feeling has become associated with being sick.
I assume that the evidence given by PAMs that Rawat doesn't meditate and never did is correct. (Has he ever sat down and "meditated" in public for more than 2 minutes?) So even if there was some objective experience to have in meditation he wouldn't know what it was and therefore his keeping it very indefinite when he talks about it is the best he can do. But it's also the best he could do anyway. By never letting anyone be sure if they're "getting it right" and telling them not to discuss their personal experience of meditation in public it keeps everyone dependant and unsure.
I've often thought that a lot of premies might remain devotees despite their lack of inner peace because their meditation is so poor that they think it's their fault they've never got it right. It requires some confidence in your own experience and practise of meditation to say to yourself "No this is never going to produce the goods. It's not my fault, it's the techniques and the Master that are the failures."
|
|
|
|
Prem Rawat is a liar. It is our breath that keeps us alive and not his. He did much more harm than good. He really should spend some time in jail I think... for this mind abusing scam. Peace? What a horrible joke Prem Rawat turned out to be!
|
|
|
|
Prem Rawat or Guru Maharaj Ji as he called himself back then, talks about The Lord. All-powerful.
Modified by hilltop at Thu, Nov 09, 2006, 02:49:58
|
|
|
|
Trying to answer this sort of question underlines just how banal the Rawat ideology is, there is absolutely nothing in thirty plus years of 'the teaching' that addresses any actual human experience - certainly not something as visceral and real as pain. Bodily pain has to be understood not merely as a physical function but something which has profound social significance; the fact that we cry out when hurt is to alert our companions that we may need assistance, that there is a threat to the group or that an assailant has effected damage and we are in distress (and hope that the assailant will now desist). These are all social responses. In a complex response to this social dimension many human cultures have developed an approval of stoicism in the face pain, such that the whole of this discussion takes place against a background in which being able to overcome pain (without analgesia) is seen as laudable. And as Lesley has pointed out the tolerance of pain has even been elevated to a mystical status. In general I think that the social condition of being a premie requires a general state of denial about any 'failure' of the body and I wouldn't be surprised that any premie reported exceptional tolerance of discomfort. What the meditation actually delivers is another question. My take is that of itself, practice of the Rawat techniques promotes what I would describe as 'acquired autism' - a tendency toward low level chronic dissociation. When augmented with all the cult thinking, this creates the 'premie bubble' which most of us are familiar with. In that context I would say that the Rawat techniques (by promoting dissociation) do diminish the experience of emotional pain, and because of the social dimension of physical pain, also impact on the experience of bodily pain. Assessing relative pain is almost impossible - studies of medical staff and patients show a very poor correlation between what nurses and doctors conclude about a patient and what the patient actually reports experiencing - doctors performing marginally worse than nurses in understanding patient discomfort. And conditions such dental disease or Falcon's abscess are notoriously variable in the levels of pain involved - anything that involves inflammation can greatly stimulate nerves, causing agony or alternately the nerves may be cut off and even killed removing all sensation. As to how the Rawat meditation might help - relaxation can help reduce the experience of pain, while anoxia induces a semi hallucinatory state, so some pain reducing benefit might arise. My own experience is that I'm resentful of having been recommended a practice that induced unconscious dissociation which removed my choice in experience of intensity of emotion - be it painful or otherwise. But the meditation certainly did reduce, over many years my experience of emotional pain. As to physical pain, I do not think it added significantly to any pre existing tolerance, certainly when it comes to dealing with chronic pain which has exercised my interest rather more so than acute pain, I think that my involvement with Rawatism has been a disadvantage because it inhibited more dynamic approaches to pain management. Nik
|
|
|
|
>Trying to answer this sort of question underlines just how banal the Rawat ideology is, there is absolutely nothing in thirty plus years of 'the teaching' that addresses any actual human experience - certainly not something as visceral and real as pain. You have managed to abstract a more fundamental principle of the cult workings than my own rather simplistic question, Nik. You are right: all authentic human experience is simply ignored as irrelevant to the cult - not least, since authentic human experience is largely unknown territory for Rawat, himself. While he has spent nearly five decades cosseted in his cult bubble, his premies, whilst being seduced to join him in that bubble, must in reality, juggle their time between that emotionally anaesthetised fantasy land, and the 'real' world of fear, hope, anxiety, pain, belonging, security etc. - all inescapable facets of the human condition. I tend to agree with Milton's Lucifer here: 'Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven'. (Except, in Maharaji's world, serving in heaven can be pretty hellish, too.)
|
|
|
|
Encapsulates all my thinking and opinions of the issue, but said so much better. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Not only that knowledge did not help me to deal with pain, but at that period of my life I felt worse than ever, physically. I felt stress in the chest, pain in my legs, in Rome festival i had an attack of abdominal pain, which i suspected was as a result of emotional distress. For sure meditation did not help me in these cases, quite the opposite. IMO it is impossible to seperate between knwoledge and the whole cultish way of life. Maybe this is not an accurate answer to the question, but it is my answer.
|
|
|
|
Greetings to all: I read here when I can Physical pain was a distraction when trying to meditate. I could sometimes keep attention in breath/tongue while I hurt, but it never stopped hurting. On the other hand, I have experienced some of those brain states where (for me) pain was there but didn't hurt, or not as much. I could tell it was hurting on a certain level--unlike people with nerve damage (such as from leprosy) who don't know when they're injured--but it was OK. I wasn't dissociated from my body, but from the pain of the pain, if that makes sense? So I can see how someone deeply focused in breath, etc., could experience bliss not pain...it's a brain thing, baby. Blessings to all...
|
|
|
|
No. I saw no evidence that K was any type of pain relief method. As someone who deals with people in excruciating physical pain frequently I can say my K would help very little. Being relaxed is helpful...anxiety makes pain worse. But when you are dealing with pain things like that only work to a very small extent.
|
|
|
|
I hear 10 from smiling people all the time. Then their imaginations get a little expanded. I am not sure until a person has had an experience with severe physical pain they have a clue how bad our bodies can feel. I was interested in Ophelia's post. I work with women in labor and you get a very rare person that doesn't have much pain. Most say its the worst pain in their lives and have a hard time believing anything that hurts that bad won't kill you ( or you wish it would). I wonder Ophelia if you are right about it being your ability to detach more than K? I remember Marolyn saying labor was intensely painful for her. Though premies liked natural birth methods they never said it was painless. I see the most successful people at achieving birth without pain meds as the ones who accept it will be very painful. But I also see a rare person like O who breaks all the rules...mostly I believe they are just wired differently. I really believe that. I don't think its mostly about attitude, I think its mostly the luck of how your body is ennervated. But I think the level of physical detachment a person who experienced severe physical abuse as a child...yes...that rings true. Sometimes though I have seen those people as having less tolerance of pain because of the fear and memories it brings back. You really want to relieve those people's pain. The skeptic in me thinks, with the exception of O, people who think K relieves pain probably haven't really had pain. They are the smiling 10s who if they knew would call it a 2.
|
|
|
|
That's interesting, Susan, I was hoping you'd chime in here. Those 1-10 scales are in doctors' offices, and I think the medical profession has come a long way in pain-relief because people do heal faster when not stressed by severe pain. I used to think I had a very high tolerance for physical pain but I now know that dissociation played a large part in my self-perceived tolerance. I can't explain it well, but it's sort of like being in the dentist's chair on nitrous oxide but dissociation is hundreds of times more effective (in fact nitrous oxide never worked for me) at distancing oneself from the physical (and emotional) pain -- to the point where it's feels like a floating feeling, being away from the my body that's in pain. The brain is such a powerful thing. My post-op hysterectomy wound was the worse pain I ever have experienced in my life. I also had a lot of pain meds for a few days and that was in the days one stayed in the hospital for a week post-op! I was too out of it to dissociate. Sometimes though I have seen those people as having less tolerance of pain because of the fear and memories it brings back. You really want to relieve those people's pain. Absolutely and good for you. Your patients are so fortunate to have you, Susan, because they don't have to go through their whole life story explaining about their pain tolerance level -- you already understand them.
Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 10:16:10
|
|
|
|
that is a quote from one of my favorite nursing instructors. People express pain differently and I think we all fear being in pain and not being believed. I worry way more about patients not being taken seriously who are in pain than creating drug addicts.. I always think it is interesting to look at memory and pain. For example, it is only fairly recent that newborn pain has been taken seriously because there used to be a school of thought that if you can't remember pain it didn't exist? HUH? Sort of like, why should we medicate anyone we are all going to die someday and won't "remember" it. Certain drugs cause amnesia and NO pain relief. They used to be used in childbirth a lot. Twilight sleep. The mom ( most of our grandmothers ) would scream and thrash and need to be restrained thoughout her labor ( this drug Scopalamine also reduced inhibition ) but she had no memory of the pain. Wasn't the pain real? Weird huh? There is another drug still used today, Versed, that causes similar amnesia but now docs and nurses do medicate for pain whether the patient will remember the pain or not. Hard to imagine people ever thought otherwise.
|
|
|
|
>The skeptic in me thinks, with the exception of O, people who think K relieves pain probably haven't really had pain. They are the smiling 10s who if they knew would call it a 2. My thoughts exactly. Susan, and so neatly expressed. I'm glad you joined in here - and interesting post all round. (I'm a little amazed that a sub-thread could erupt into something so lively by just using CAPITALS in my post title and inviting EVERYONE to join in. As somebody posted lower down, or on the non-ratso forum, it must me pretty easy to start a cult just by inviting people, without explaining why. The thing would gather its own momentum, like that bystander effect where if two of you stand on the street pointing at something, or justing looking up, you soon get a crowd building up trying to see what the buzz is. Basically, people like joining in - and maybe that's the engine that powers a cult, regardless of a guru's lineage and credentials, and in spite of the banality of his message?) Cheers,
Nige
Modified by Nigel at Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 14:41:38
|
|
|
|
You old bugger
It was as plain as day what you were up to with the capitals, & I even started a post saying so, but then I deleted it as I didn't want to hurt your feelings. I'll have you know that I hate 'joining in', & only joined the GMJ cult because the initiation 'proved' to me that it must be true. I spent all of my twenties as a result, in a state of emotional turmoil, trying to reconcile the obvious cultoid behaviour of so many of my fellow premies with the implications of having got on the 1st step towards realising the Beatific Vision.
.....it must me pretty easy to start a cult just by inviting people, without explaining why.
No, I don't think so, not in my case anyway. I went for the promise of the revelation of God within, & pretty much resisted the droid mindset. If only I'd heard about it a year later, I'd've never gone anywhere near it, cos I got the special K just before it was deemed neccessary to sit for months on end listening to drivelling blissouts explaining the whole thing.
At the time I admit that the way I saw it was that only by the inexplicable grace of GMJ had I been admitted to the ranks of the elect, before the barriers came down & people had to prove they believed, before they could be admitted to the Kingdom of Heaven.
I got the K after listening to 3 or 4 random satsangs over a couple of months, & then 4 consecutive days of getting my face recognised by Mohani Bai. I had no desire to join anything, & didn't realise I'd done so, until after I repudiated the belief 28 yrs later.
Why you joined & why I joined maybe aren't the same. I was tricked by a completely unknown at the time, (except by a handful of eccentrics) physical manipulation, is the way I look at it. Your reasons are your own to analyse.
It was curiosity killed the cat for me.
|
|
|
|
>You old bugger Same to you, you old crosspatch. >It was as plain as day what you were up to with the capitals, & I even started a post saying so, but then I deleted it as I didn't want to hurt your feelings. Thanks for considering my feelings, Pat, but they're pretty ironclad these days when merely twittering on web-forums with fellow twitterers - as compared to the more heavy duty slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that flesh is heir to (isn't that a quote or something?) As for: > 'It was as plain as day what you were up to with the capitals' Good! That was the general idea - and it worked, didn't it? There have been some fabulous posts on this thread that might otherwise never have happened (Nik, Cynth, Ophelia. Lesley etc). But aside from that, the invitation to 'EVERYONE' wasn't about getting people's attention onto me or anything I'd written, but because I was genuinely puzzled by Falcon's assertion that K techniques provided him/her with some kind of pain relief. It was so counter to everything in my experience that a straw poll seemed appropriate... That's all I was up to. Nighty, night.. zzz
Modified by Nigel at Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 16:20:26
|
|
|
|
Yeah, take no notice, I've always been like that.
It's true what you say about the posts on this thread.
|
|
|
|
Hi Susan, Great post! And as a volunteer doula, I admit I have never met another woman who did not experience intense pain in childbirth. Nowadays, they all ask for epidurals at about 4-5 centimeters. (BTW, Susan, we met at a Latvian night in San Francisco - I can't remember the date.) I know a woman who experienced no pain in her childbirths 25 and 27 years ago; however, she had extremely short labors and since then, always has dental procedures without novocaine. As you say, I believe some of us are wired differently; however, she didn't experience the abuse and neglect in childhood that could account for my ability to dissociate from my body. So I'm guessing her wiring is quite different from mine. In retrospect, I found pregnancy and childbirth to be extremely addictive. The high and bliss I experienced in the process of creation of life cannot be duplicated. I theorized for some time (with a therapist) that I was simply a masochist who got off on pain. In that paradigm, my history enabled me to shift the experience of pain to pleasure and bliss. In fact, I had an orgasm while giving birth to my third child! Still, I hate to discount such a powerful experience. Contractions like waves. Surfing with the energy. (I surfed into the 9th month in this pic.) That powerful, creative energy. Just light and bliss and incredible love. Maharaji had nothing to do with it, really. Much bigger than anything he had to offer. 
|
|
|
|
Everyone here once received so-called K. Everyone here also knows what pain is like...Did having Rawatso's Knowledge help at all? I never really knew extreme physical, mental or emotional pain untill after getting Rawatso`s Knowledge. The pain I experienced post K was the greatest shock to my nervous system ever. Figuring out how that could happen after finding the `Lard` was quite a challenge to a deeply confused young man. Recovery was painfully slow. 
|
|
|
|
Sorry for late return and reply.
I couldn't find the right words till Milarepa said it for me: word for word.
"I never really knew extreme physical, mental or emotional pain until
after getting Rawatso's Knowledge. The pain I experienced post K was
the greatest shock to my nervous system ever. Figuring out how that
could happen after finding the 'Lard' was quite a challenge to a deeply
confused young man."
Forgive me for using your words Milarepa,
I should only truthfully change one thing:
If recovery is even a possibility for me, it looks like being painfully slow.
Loving regards to all.
|
|
|
|
>If recovery is even a possibility for me, it looks like being painfully slow. I was skimming the latest additions to this thread (no disrespect to anyone, I have limited time to spend here) when I had to stop and re-read that sentence, Saph. That’s too grim. Hold that thought right now and, next, bin it! Then get a better set of gears... I hope things aren’t feeling too desperate for you right now – and also hope you don’t feel like some sort of outsider here because of other exes’ possible perceptions of you as a ‘slightly-more-elevated-than-average’ premie. (Hey! – I’m extending my sympathies to a Mahatma! How cool is that? J ) Seriously, pal, take care – everyone here recognises a fellow cult-victim when they meet one and I know you have good and useful web-friends here, if you haven’t realised it already… Top recovery tip: I’m reading some interesting research into so-called ‘positive psychology’ and it looks like a good belly laugh is pretty-well the best remedy for all psychological anxieties, bad emotions and everyday stressors etc. Best,
Nige
|
|
|
|
"Top recovery tip: I’m reading some interesting
research into so-called ‘positive psychology’ and it looks
like a good belly laugh is pretty-well the best remedy for all
psychological anxieties, bad emotions and everyday stressors etc."
Thankyou Nigel, I know there is truth in this......
|
|
|
|
I find that the old song from our childhood days - 'The Laughing Policeman' - always helps! Do you remember Uncle Mac on Saturday mornings in the 1950s and all those great story songs he used to play to 'children-everywhere'? Danny Kaye was my aprticular favourite.
|
|
|
|
Yeah I remember that. I never missed a Saturday morning. There was a piece of "music" by... Spike Jones was it?, well a sort of cacaphony, really, I loved it. it was a favorite with me and a popular request. "Sparky's magic piano" too. Here's the signature to Uncle Mac's children's favorites
Modified by Saph at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 03:50:53
|
|
|
|
when he used to say 'Goddbye Children - everywhere' I used to think that he was talking to every child in the world, at that moment. Global Consciousness awakes!
|
|
|
|
when he used to say 'Goodbye Children - everywhere' I used to think that he was talking to every child in the world, at that moment. Global Consciousness awakes!
|
|
|
|
Modified by Saph at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 11:09:17
|
|
|
|
" Alvin ! Will you stop shooting that gun and get back here and sing ! " "Ragtime Cowboy Joe"....The Chipmunks ( PLAY LOUD ) P.S. I have the " Uncle Mac" tapes called " Hello Children Everywhere " .....probably on CD now ??
Modified by lexy at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 10:17:36
|
|
|
|
Hi Saph, What you said... If recovery is even a possibility for me, it looks like being painfully slow. That is more than sad for me to hear you say that. I wish I could take that pain away. Maybe even shake you and give you a pep talk or even a hug of understanding. This is why I dislike Prem Rawat so much. Beautiful people like yourself that have to come to grips with the real truth about Prem Rawat and all the lies that we thought were the truth, thanks to him. The deep cult programing in our minds can be hard to shake, make no mistake about that. Our minds remember everything, so it is no easy task. And then there is the question of even trusting our own mind's judgement ever again for allowing itself to have been taken advantage of like that. Prem Rawat and his "our mind is the enemy stuff" sucks. The breath you have is a gift IMHO without Prem Rawat's mind abusing scam having to be attached to it. I only hope and pray... Yes pray, that you recover sooner rather than later. Be good to yourself and forgive yourself too. Your friend... Hilltop
Modified by hilltop at Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 22:42:07
|
|
|
|
Thankyou, from my heart, for your friendship Hilltop.....
Modified by Saph at Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 23:22:16
|
|
|
|
Hi Saph, But did anything I say make any sense? You know me I don't say much. I still like the altered pictures kind of communication. But that's just me. How are you doing? Please share more about what your going through so I can understand better. Ofcourse, only if you want too. Maybe this should be e-mail. Forgive me. RE: responseably yours, Hilltop
Modified by hilltop at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 00:10:38
|
|
|
|
I'm sorry Hilltop, of course it made perfect sense, as do all your posts. I think you have come close to hitting the nail on the head with:
"And then there is the question of even trusting our own mind's judgement ever
again for allowing itself to have been taken advantage of like that."
I'd love to communicate more but would prefer to email. Several months ago I asked Mike to email you with my email address. If you can't find it, he'll give it to you again.
It still feels like the middle of the night here, I couldn't sleep but will try again and try to get an email together, via Mike, later today.
(btw, I've asked him to give my email to any ex-premies he knows, who post here, if asked.)
Warmest good wishes Hilltop,
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 00:53:46
|
|
|
|
Hi Saph, That sounds great! Yes... I would enjoy talking with you. I always liked what LP had to say too. Truely! I haven't made it easy for people to reach or contact me. Just ask John, Mike or anyone else for that matter. And ofcourse I don't use my real name here. Cynthia and many others are the real true freedom fighters. Not me. The reason why I don't post my name is simply because I just don't trust Prem Rawat and His cult members. So much for being brave. I've heard to may horror stories from others here about what can happen when you use your real name. I wonder if I'm on their list. I hope so. But then again who cares? I'd just like to show them and everyone else some of the Prem Rawat scans that I have. It may be just a matter of time. Talk about sick mind abusive cult talk! Trust me it's that bad. I'm just being honest here about what Prem Rawat has said in the past and because I have the proof. Anyhow, I hope to talk to you soon. Best Thoughts! Hilltop.... who get's carried away sometimes.
Modified by hilltop at Sun, Nov 12, 2006, 03:17:15
|
|
|
|
You seemed in pretty good shape last time I saw you. Maybe you're just suffering from Old Age, like the rest of us. Take care and see you when we get back. Anth eating fried dog in Yangshuo http://blog.myspace.com//anthonyginn
|
|
|
|
Yeah, but that was the health giving effect of seeing you, and people in general.
I've been following your progress with pleasure.
It's mostly this damn self doubt, that ails, probably not fair to blame it all on Maharaji though, it's been there since childhood!
I look forward to your return.
Fried Dog!!
Modified by Saph at Mon, Nov 13, 2006, 18:59:57
|
|
|
|
Well, I confess, I didn't order fried dog, but had beer fish instead- carp cooked in beer. I did eat a scorpion kebab in Beijing though. Looking forward to another fishing trip when we get back. take care anth the english menu please.
|
|
|
|
You bet on the fishing trip, maybe try cooking it in beer this time.
Saph, the woodless.
Modified by Saph at Tue, Nov 14, 2006, 05:09:23
|
|
|
|
I agree Falcon. I've used meditation on occasion (post-cult) to dissociate myself from both physical and emotional pain. But, dissociation isn't the best answer in most situations because used to the extreme it can cause people to develop personality disorders, and similar states of mind, like derealization and depersonalization, which, living in the western world ain't a great state of mind to live within. Me? Give me a vicodin when I have pain till the wound is healed any day of the week, not for the high but for the pain, because I don't really like pain-killers. But, I'm talking from the pov of someone who had severe dissociative disorders, so it may not count in this discussion.
Modified by Cynthia at Wed, Nov 08, 2006, 11:33:57
|
|
|
|
a very nice drug IMO, I took one recently thinking that it was E. Whoops. I was poured in to a cab!
|
|
|
|
Yes, vicodin is nice, too nice. It works well to remove all kinds of pain and it's also why it's so strongly controlled here. Give me IV oxycontin or dilaudid any day of the week and I'll be hooked post-haste. I had both IV post-op a long time ago when I developed a hospital infection, and whoa, was I happy! I can easily see why people get hooked on that class of drugs.
|
|
|
|
>The great beauty of Tantra (literally meaning 'loom') is that it deconstructs belief systems and doesn't replace them!< Is that not a statement of belief ? N
|
|
|
|
Is there potentially a difference between experience conditioned by a belief system (M is God, so the experience of K comes from M) --and belief grounded in/arising from experience? (M lies and deceives, so he's not to be trusted.) If tantra is a process --techniques?! --for getting in touch with what's really there, brain, body, other people, etc., then maybe it can help ground beliefs in reality? Everything is part of belief system, no? So question would be, does 'tantra' open or close belief system to facts--does it produce good contact or delusion?
|
|
|
|
>If tantra is a process --techniques?! --for getting in touch with what's really there, brain, body, other people, etc., then maybe it can help ground beliefs in reality? Clearly, you believe in something that's 'really there' and, also the idea of an objective reality. But to suggest that experiences of tantra is somehow a route to that (and, for the sake of argument, I'm not saying it isn't), is a belief - as Nik rightly noted. >Everything is part of belief system, no? So question would be, does 'tantra' open or close belief system to facts--does it produce good contact or delusion? For sure, faith in tantra is a statement of experience - but it also a statement of belief when it comes to interpreting that experience. Maybe, as you suggest, everything we conclude about this world and our lives is a form of belief. But unless you also define 'fact', the concept of 'delusion' is meaningless, and everything is reduced to belief - and we're back in the fifteenth century. So what are the reliable facts? In my experience it is those which best fit with our accumulating body of scientific knowledge. Or, if explanations don't *quite* fit with established knowledge, they need to be parsimonious, ie., don't call in a second unknown to explain an unknown, or offer a complex argument where a simpler explantion will do, based upon the scientific 'knowns'. Cheers,
Nige
|
|
|
|
Nigel, First, I love the 'lifeboats' post and thread, and I will be pondering a lot of those thoughts for a while. Second, I am sleep deprived, and I think that what I wrote this morning failed to say clearly what I meant. I was replying offhand to a fragment of a thread, and probably shouldn't have. I get happy when I see so many people thinking and writing about the same questions I am still asking (how the hell did I fall for that nonsense??) that I want to join in! I think I was only trying to say that some beliefs are open to experiential modification, some less so--idea of open vs. closed belief systems make any sense? Open: responsive to new information--facts, alternative explanations, etc. Closed: not flexible, tending to denial and delusion, 'lifeboats', etc. Religion tends to be closed, but not always. Politics, ditto. I wrote 'everything is part of belief system'--I should have said that beliefs, belief system, assumptions, something of the sort, enter into all of our experiences. Can't get away from them. Need methodology for testing/correcting them. I see ex-premie forum as a shining example of belief-system testing and exploration. Can a liar really be LOTU? The term 'tantra' probably introduced confusions--I think I define it idiosyncratically--let's toss it out for now. 'Facts': It is what it is. Physical world: observational and operational, what can be measured operationally, calculated mathematically and tested engineeringly--airspeed and lift equals flight. Not equals crash. Psychologically, 'facts' becomes more problematic: what is 'reality' of mind, consciousness, belief, etc.; I'm still investigating...Why do I love music? What is love? Does my interpretive conceptualization of my experience (still theistic) enrich or impoverish me? Am I holding some beliefs out of ego, fear, etc? When I posted I was also in part straying OT. In addition to exploring HOW and WHY I fell into premie beliefs and had the experiences I had (Word, Light, darshan, etc. were pretty real to me, brain chemistry plus consensus explanation?), I am also trying to cope with the IMO delusional belief systems of people around me at present. I am teaching English in a conservative private school (in Arkansas, USA) where (GET THIS!!) most of the teachers believe the earth is approx. 6,000 years old (!? Noah's ark the ultimate 'lifeboat of the imagination') and George W Bush is a pillar of honesty and virtue. I am gradually trying to introduce some sense of critical thinking, evaluation of evidence, recognizing your own assumptions, etc., to my students and some teachers, but it's stressful, so I bark at odd moments sometimes. I don't know if I've cleared anything up? Thanks for caring Chuck
|
|
|
|
"I am teaching English in a conservative private school (in Arkansas, USA) where (GET THIS!!) most of the teachers believe the earth is approx. 6,000 years old (!? Noah's ark the ultimate 'lifeboat of the imagination') and George W Bush is a pillar of honesty and virtue. I am gradually trying to introduce some sense of critical thinking, evaluation of evidence, recognizing your own assumptions, etc., to my students and some teachers, but it's stressful, so I bark at odd moments sometimes." Applause from me Chuck ! I teach English too, but as a second language, here in Britain to students from overseas.I don't only introduce grammar and vocabulary ( although obviously that is important) but I also run conversation and discussion classes as well as listening,reading,literature etc. It requires a lot of patience and with several different nationalities from all around the world in the classroom at one time, a great deal of tip-toeing through different belief systems.I have taught Muslims from the Middle East, North Africa,Indonesia etc alongside chinese followers of Falun Gong, evangelistic Korean christians, very Catholic South Americans and atheists/agnostics from all over ( although I don't remember any student from a muslim country ever admitting to being atheist). Anyhow , I know that what you are doing can't be easy and wish you all the best. Lexy x. btw. I thought your first post was fine and imo you didn't have to apologise for it.
Modified by lexy at Sat, Nov 11, 2006, 07:11:40
|
|
|
