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Maybe the most difficult thing will be to have YOUR OWN opinion on the whole thing.
There are well established facts on what's been going on for decades around the Rawats ....... , and what his theories and philosophies are about.
Think of what you liked, what you didn't like, how you got hooked etc .........
Maybe you're very much materialist, maybe you're on the mystical side ....... doesn't matter.
The whole thing is toxic IMO.
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The whole thing is toxic IMO I recognize that it was totally or mostly toxic for a lot of folks, especially those who were more totally absorbed or 'Borgified' (Star Trek allusion) than I was. Maybe the most difficult thing will be to have YOUR OWN opinion on the whole thing.
Part of my curious impulse here--as I thrash around trying to figure out what IS my own opinion--is why it WASN't totally toxic for me, or didn't seem so. Maybe I just didn't get the full dose... Thanks for responding.
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Hi Chuck,
You don't say whether you have read through what is available on EPO ( http://www.ex-premie.org/ ). I too drifted away without too many backward glances ( mostly, there was the occassional wrench ). I didn't think I was damaged, but since reading EPO and engaging on this forum, I find some ghosts have been exorcised, some half-buried ideas have been dug up and thrown out with the trash. There WAS damage and there probably still is some. I spent years thinking within a sandbox. Now I am out, I am not sure I will ever be totally free of those artifical constraints.
'love/light/power that so many of us experienced as PHYSICALLY flowing from the chubby little prankster' I would put down to total illusion. Just look at the born-again Christians on TV, experiencing the power of Jesus, as they'd have it. Ah, but then I am an atheist...
It was total BS. I think many of these intelligent people round here might agree with that. It is funny though, that their intelligence didn't save them! Maybe intelligence is over-rated...
Sure, we all had experiences, but the concepts we applied to them ( divine love, the idea that K and peace emanated from M and so on ) were just absurd. M was right about one thing - we just needed to dump a few concepts!
Stick around! You might discover something useful here - I did. But if you did get out unscathed, good for you!
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I didn't want to bulk up my first post too much, but yes I've read through a lot of EPO and it fits (with hindsight) with what I saw at the time. Part of my reason for staying drifted away was a growing sense that there was something wrong. I suppose now I'm partly interested in, as you suggest, seeing if there's damage I'm not aware of--I seem to be better off when I'm in touch with reality than not.
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You have read through and responded to each reply you got.
How polite, patient and attentive.
Do stick around!
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Your words are kind and the thought appreciated. Every time I read here I am a little awed by the thoughtfulness and love of so many of the writers, and by all the good sense that is spoken, and I want to do what I can to keep the generally high level of the conversation. Not only that, but I have papers to grade that I am avoiding and this makes a good distraction! Seriously, I am learning a lot and benefitting from the 'energy' I'm getting here, and I want to show my thanks as well as just say 'thanks'. so: thanks.
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Love to you, from my heart! Peace. PS: I felt it too reading this post! ~Axis~
Modified by Axis at Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 14:26:42
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My time with M was blissful, by and large. I was lost and so certainly felt found... so I clung to the idea and ideology of him as a perfect lover/father with gusto. What I now think is that a wise and responsible teacher would not have encouraged such dependency, but M on the other hand, fostered it. That to my mind is the greatest flaw (and its such a huge one) that it converts every ounce of gratitude into the currency of manipulation... but no, i have no regrets. Glad I got into it, and glad I outgrew him and had the guts to face my pain... and importantly to take my pain elsehere and deal with it, cos in those circumstances he is no use whatsoever. I am grateful in some way because my search for a destination has come to an end... I have learned to be wary of teachers, unless they teach and then get out of the way pretty damn quick!
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What I now think is that a wise and responsible teacher would not have encouraged such dependency, but M on the other hand, fostered it. On the spot, and I think one reason I didn't suffer more damage is that I always believed that there were other 'doors to god'--even at the height of my 'You are my everything' blissout I kept a shred of independent judgment, I guess you could say. Glad I got into it, and glad I outgrew him and had the guts to face my pain... and importantly to take my pain elsehere and deal with it Yeah, I would have to say I learned things from M and the whole trip that still serve me today. I know how 'not to have a concept' but just approach things. I think I learned part of a skill that should be common to all of us, but I didn't learn as a child: how to take delight in another person! Thinking about it, I sometimes get 'blissed out' sharing just ordinary love with people in my life. I never used to do that. I have learned to be wary of teachers, unless they teach and then get out of the way pretty damn quick! That would be a pretty good rule of thumb. That's probably a lesson I missed by 'drifting out'--it took me a while longer to learn that I could love and learn from people and avoid getting entangled with them at the same time. Thanks for your response. I knew you guys would help me sort out my own thoughts!
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So I'm interested in comments about what was/is really going on around M? Is it all psychological manipulation and vanity? Vanity maybe isn't the word I would use, narcissism, selfishness complete feeling of M that world is here to meet his needs and that premies benefit from devoting themselves to him and he is here to be object of devotion? I don't know if he conciously knows he is manipulating. I think all this worship stuff was ingrained in him as a child. He may have watched his father manipulating his own devotees. Read Bob Mishler, Mike Donner, Michael Dettmers for their insights...that has been best way for me, an outsider, to get a feel for M. The picture I get is someone who most of the time truly believes he does deserve it all, and not only that is often angry at premies for not being more devoted...it sounds too, that of course, he gets human feelings and a human desire for normal equal relationships and has a pattern of pulling back from them when real friendship might develop. I think its likely his addiction problems have to do with reality creeping in and he is trying to drown out his own humanity. Is it come combination of real techniques and hucksterism? I don't think the techniques are special. I think its WAY more the hucksterism...think emporers new clothes. Was the love/light/power that so many of us experienced as PHYSICALLY flowing from the chubby little prankster total illusion, Yes, I think what we saw was the result of hype. If we hadn't been conditioned to see it we wouldn't have. If we had run into him in a store and not known him no light no stars no magic. real love awakened in us by a flawed/self-deceived victim of his own hype, or some kind of astral energy doing I don't know what? Whatcha think? Not real love...hero worship and en masse effect. Think Rock stars....think mass hysteria. No astral energy. I don't even believe in astral energy I think its total unmitigated bullshit.
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I agree that M is probably more caught up in the trip than anyone else--and has the most to lose by facing the facts of what he's become. The comment about M both needing and fearing 'real friendship' really hit home. How can you look level at someone when you're LOTU and they always want to kiss yr LOTU's feet? (I just made myself laugh.) I agree that there was hero worship and hype, but (see my reply above) I think there was something genuine in my response to him--a love worthy of a better object? I think maybe, maybe, part of what made it all so cool is that M did/does stir REAL feelings. Hence the cruelty of the betrayal when we see behind the wizard's curtain. I don't know about now, Amaroo etc., but I remember watching him smile, laugh, dance in response to the premies' attentions. Weird, compared to the purity of (say) a mother and infant exchanging smiles and love; but like I wrote in one reply above, I got really screwed up as a kid and (sick as it will sound to some) I was less screwed up post-GMJ than before. Someone in an earlier post, I think replying to a picture Hilltop posted, described time spent with M in an intimate Malibu setting. He was (to look at) beautiful, and I think some emotional or ? channels in me opened in response to whatever was happening. Is this stupidity? but I think I have access to more of myself after M than before? Maybe I just believe now, what I didn't before, that my brain is capable of making me happy for no reason at all... Thanks Susan
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I can relate to the feeling of "something" about it was real. Our love was certainly sincere. Mine was. Maybe you are rignt, real love worthy of a better object...but would you say that to a girl with a crush on a boy from Tiger Beat? (hmm could be obscure reference...teen with crush on idol) I kind of don't know how real our love for M was because M wasn't real. We didn't know him, we couldn't really love him we were in love with an idea. But I have come away with a lot that is real. And one thing is the premies. The relationships we had with eachother were often very real. Thats what I took away thats real. Maybe we were all in a cult but there were levels of genuineness with the other premies I still cherish. That and brown rice, brewers yeast, yoga pants and a zillion other sentimental moments. You have to salvage what you can and throw out the real garbage. I still have a very isn't life amazing outlook on life. Just the exchange of ideas here is one amazing nuances of life. Again..the wizard of Oz...we had it all along..Rawat just took credit for it. Jim always had a brain and I always had a heart and you always had courage...the man behind the curtain just isn;t sorry and he's never going to admit the harm he caused.
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Interesting you mention the Tiger Beat / teen crush issue. I frequently challenge my (7th thru 12th grade) students about how real their romances are--a lot of teen love is lust, social games, imitation of what they see/hear in the entertainment media, etc., and I tell them so, point out how few of their 'relationships' have any stability or lasting substance. I will have to ponder the similarities... I think you're right that at least some of the relationships between premies were real--'levels of genuineness' you wrote. Yeah. One of the reasons I've taken so long to look back and re-evaluate Maraji himself is probably that I did and do value a lot of what I learned in those premie relationships. I mostly had a blast, and when it stopped being blissful it was easy --M had made it easy by changing the rules --to just kind of stay away and keep my happy memories intact. Sadly (?) none of the premie friendships that I had have endured. Yes, I have to say I owe some of my 'life is amazing outlook' to my experience with M. I think I am still somewhat agog at the EPO etc. information and trying to reconcile that with the fact that when M said 'Blessings to all the premies' I actually got blessed. Power of expectation? Maybe --I'm just speculating in public, hope it's not too rude --one of the lessons here is the POWER of the mind or brain or soul or whatever: if M could trigger with tricks such joy and appreciation, we can do the same (but differently!) for ourselves and each other. Around M, s s & m, I learned to be blissed out without psychedelics--now I find myself living that way much of the time--without drugs or GMJ.
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"Sadly (?) none of the premie friendships that I had have endured."
I too have much sadness connected to this fact. It shows me reluctantly that the friendship was not real, not a friendship.
The coming together of premies was, it seems, a meeting of convenience, each hoping to preserve their concepts about, or gain another step towards, Maharaji.
It has more to do I think, now, with the fact that non-premies are considered to be not real people, premies being the only "acceptable" friends allowed.
It appears from my present position that premies do not really share friendship with each other but more a mutual bolstering of their ingested concepts and feelings about Maharaji.
They are a mutually reiterating concept support and preservation society.
Modified by Saph at Thu, Oct 19, 2006, 02:06:55
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Hi Chuck, I'm sure you'll get lots of responses. I think actually your experience of drifting away - and the circumstance of your coming across 'ex premiesm' is a fairly common one. To actually answer all your questions thoroughly would require enopugh text to fill a book - I'll go for something brief: 1. Four decades of intense exposure of all things 'spiritual' on a global scale has demonstrated that notions of "real love" (as opposed to simple good old human affection and passion) "astral energy", divine light, elan vital etc. etc. have no substantive reality. 2.Notions about energy and enlightment may have huge psychological importance but there is nothing for 'teachers' to transmit or give or to reveal. All 'guruism' is hucksterism, some of it is relatively benign, some of it is malign and some grotesquely exploitative. 3. Psychology and Neurochemistry have made huge advances in explaining the bases for spiritual and religious experience - this should not of itself devalue the experiences but we can not ignore the implications of new understanding. 4. Intelligence is no protection against delusion. 5. The techniques Rawat claims as his own are simply swiped from the main body of yoga and are taught without refrence to any cultural base. The lack of support probably offers a potential for some people to suffer serious mental health problems. 6.Love flowing from 'the master' - an important psycho social phenomena which has no substance outside the individual devottee's mind. 7. My take on Rawat - a kid who got screwed up by adult expectations, the loss of father and immersion in an hysterical cult. He lives out a Peter Pan existence bcause he hasn't the strength to leave his Guru Never Never land and and be a grown. I feel sorry for him and despise him in equal measure. Nik
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That is a pretty good synopsis of a very long book. In fact a damn fine synopsis. I loved your point 4.  cheers
T
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how to I am make a happy clapper too...? yech we all used to be REAL happy clappers....
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Indeed, the substance of the book in brief. SF writers used to imagine astronauts would get a meal in a pill. notions of "real love" (as opposed to simple good old human affection and passion) "astral energy", divine light, elan vital etc. etc. have no substantive reality As I reply to replies, I'm reflecting on what I think about love--I wonder how many premies, pre-GMJ, were very good at 'simple good old human affection'? Maybe M is just very good at rechanneling normal, real emotions into hyped hysterical illusions. 3 is a very good point, and does go a long way to account for M's drawing power. I'll deal with this later, but many of us are aware that M is not the only guru whose darshan, satsang, etc., induce mystical experiences--shaktis, telepathy, siddhas of all kinds. What is that? How does that work? 4 is priceless. It goes on my classroom wall tomorrow. 5 I think devotion, through SS & M ('satsang service and meditation) was supposed to provide all the cultural base or framework needed--that was one reason I left was that there was no support where I needed it. 6. Again, I wonder if 'devotion' to GMJ wasn't a manipulation, an insane version of something we're capable of doing on kind of a normal basis with each other as just folks? Maybe (I'm kind of serious) we all could/should have that 'glow' that M seemed to have? I guess I'm still wondering, dreamer that I am, if among the hysteria was also some real but misdirected love? 7. That's making a lot of sense. Thanks
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We weren't to know then, but it seems India is capable of spawning an almost endless number of these gurus. The details of the process are already well laid down, in all their scriptural stories.
They have only to imagine themselves in the driving seat of Arjuna's chariot. Then apply all the anecdotes and aphorisms to themselves.
Maharaji's timing was lucky. There was a lot of love in the 60's, real or not I cannot say, or define.
From my position, always the great love I felt was for life itself, nature and its forms, some sort of idea of God, but overwhelmingly it was for the folk around me.
In the sixties I felt a bursting love for the people (hippie types) I danced with at weekends at the Middle Earth Club (formerly Electric Garden) in Covent Garden. (and UFO, Roundhouse etc.)
During those Maharaji years I felt the same love for the premies. Sure Maharaji seemed to be the focusing agent, but I think that my feeling of love for everybody at festivals was more likely to be a sort of mutual admiration for those whom I truly believed were fellow (kindred spirit) seekers of truth like the self I believed myself to be.
Maharaji gave us the feeling that we had been successful in our search for truth, so sight of each others' blissed out smiles confirmed this further. Our spirits rose in spirals of self congratulatory, mutual appreciation.
All maharaji had to do was claim it was all coming from him. Given the concept of "whatever he says is true", this was not hard for us to accept.
The secret nagging doubt I had which I dared not share with even my ashram brothers, who shared the same piece of floor, was that the sum total of the things which knowledge amounted to, did not exactly add up to anything I could particularly describe as God. Nor in the premies around me or myself did I see much sign of improved human being.
Gradually this sense of love faded. After decades I found myself avoiding premies, yet this love in my heart has not gone and I feel it again, now, here, for ex-premies. I am also happy to say I have found that love again I had as a child for trees and ferns, and water, and sky, and the spaces where we meet other forms of life..
Modified by Saph at Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 17:11:14
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I have found that love again I had as a child for trees and ferns, and water, and sky, and the spaces where we meet other forms of life hey , you are still human .aint that great ? Poul
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yes, it is great to be ordinary again.
Hi Poul
Modified by Saph at Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 17:27:58
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Ah ------- the relief of being just an ordinary human being - i just love my rigth to be wrong . Love Poul ( Denmark )
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yet this love in my heart has not gone and I feel it again, now, here, for ex-premies. I am also happy to say I have found that love again I had as a child for trees and ferns, and water, and sky, and the spaces where we meet other forms of life..
thanks for expressing that .. Tim
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I can't say I've ever been that crazy about ferns, Saph. Or trees for that matter. But I get what you're saying. It's good to be natural. Part of the problem of pursuing perfection is squelching whatever affections we have for the imperfect. It was taboo. Only the perfect were we taught to love.
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and NOBODY needs an alcoholic to remind you of that. IS EVERYWHERE!
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Modified by Saph at Tue, Oct 17, 2006, 20:10:47
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As I reply to replies, I'm reflecting on what I think about love--I wonder how many premies, pre-GMJ, were very good at 'simple good old human affection'? Many! And little by little he puts you in a box, where fears abounds and one become antisocial. Premies only socialize with very close friends and even then, they function in a very disfunctional way. I was young but there was nothing absolutely wrong with me, until I began to get involved with him. I have to find a CD I have woith addresses of other sites that may help you, later, ok? It will be a task, looking in boxes. I moved not long ago. Best regards, a
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Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting. Perhaps because the premie community where I live kind of fell apart with the early 80's changes, plus a lot of divorces and recouplings and stuff, my departure from M's world was gradual and non-traumatic. The premie communities fell apart everywhere. Lots and lots of premies got divorced. Some divorces were encouraged by DLM and were processed by DLM in Miami (1980ish) so those married premies could join the ashram and do free service on the airplane project. I'm happy to hear you didn't get traumatized by your involvement. It's different for everyone in that regard. I consider myself one of the premies who got sucked in deeply, but now I've gotten over it. Is it all psychological manipulation and vanity? Yes. Is it come combination of real techniques and hucksterism. Hucksterism. The K meditation come from very old meditation techniques that have been bastardized by the Rawat family in order to run a family cult business to get money (and devotion to little Prem). The entire Rawat circus extravaganza was all hucksterism and still is. Was the love/light/power that so many of us experienced as PHYSICALLY flowing from the chubby little prankster total illusion, real love awakened in us by a flawed/self-deceived victim of his own hype, or some kind of astral energy doing I don't know what? I've got a feeling you're asking a rhetorical question, but yes, the love, light, and great feelings of community and purpose came from us not him. We were driven by false promises and chicanery. There was a huge amount of mind-f**king going on, especially in the mid to late 70s, and it continued on through around 1981 or 1982. There wasn't anything mystical or astral involved that wasn't suggested to us by Rawat, et al, or that we didn't make up in our heads. It was a scheme, a con-boy's perfect dream-come-true to attain devotion and lots of money from young, naive people. He used thousands of people to make himself rich, to fulfill his desires with palaces and all of the aircrafts of his boyhood desires. I hope you found the songs you liked. You would never have found them on any of the current Rawat/Maharaji websites becasue there has been a lot of historical revisionism in the cult. Now Prem Rawat aka Maharaji is a "humanitarian leader." Regards, Cynthia Gracie Check out this page on Ex-premie.org
Related link: Who owns what around Maharaji
Modified by Cynthia at Fri, Oct 13, 2006, 11:30:23
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Well if you've read my replies to above replies, you'll see we're not in complete agreement on every point. But when you say 'welcome' I indeed feel welcome. I think one reason I wanted to post here, and to hear what people have to say in answer to my questions, is that I appreciate hearing people tell the TRUTH as they see it, whether I agree completely or not. And hey, we agree after all that 'the love, light and great feelings of purpose and community came from us not him.' I am thinking about how, amid the 'false promises and chicanery' the whole ride still showed me things about myself that I didn't know--things I am glad to know. Not that that justifies the LIES and delusions--maybe it just explains why I'm not pissed off. You know, I put up with a LOT of BS with some humor and patience. I am fairly good and getting better at sorting edible from inedible, wheat from chaff in my daily experience. I got into things (70's drug scene, GMJ, etc.) that I would now recognize as bogus--but I learned to discern bogosity largely by surviving and taking what I found valuable with me. I haven't found most of the music I was looking for yet. I've known for years that they weren't available from EV and 'Prem'. That was maybe the point when I suspected I had drifted too far to return, when I didn't 'turn in' all my devotional materials as instructed--but the music tapes are too worn to play.
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Hi Chuck I find all these people answering here really wonderful. Since i've started reading the Forum I'm enlightened about all these "enlightened" gurus, who become mass-saviours coming to show us the "light". They are of the same dubious kind of Prem Pal. No more gurus for me.
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"I haven't found most of the music I was looking for yet. I've known for years that they weren't available from EV and 'Prem'. That was maybe the point when I suspected I had drifted too far to return, when I didn't 'turn in' all my devotional materials as instructed--but the music tapes are too worn to play" It's rather disguised in the "gallery" which is among the links in blue at the top of this forum page or click on this link
Related link: http://www.ex-premie.org/gallery/music.htm
Modified by lexy at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 18:33:47
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Thanks for the link; a lot of the tunes are here, but as links to a Net archive, can play over the wire but I haven't been able to download the tunes themselves and play in my car.
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Just wondering... What do you do? There is someone close to you that has been a Prem Rawat premie since 1971. He's my brother. We were never able to talk much about Prem Rawat over the years for some reason esp. after I stopped being a premie. I told him that Prem Rawat was a cult leader that involved brain washing. He told me that yes...It is a brain washing, but it is a good brain washing. Everything he said was satsang. He received "K" in 1971 (I got the curse in 1972) and he still goes to Amaroo to see Prem Rawat after all this time. In the early years he left his girl friend, family, education, and everything else to follow Prem Rawat or Guru Maharaji Ji. He sold everything. And lived under a sheet meditating. My question to you and everybody else is this... When someone close to you has been doing this stuff for 35 years. Maybe it is better for them to be a "lifer" for Prem Rawat then to go through the trama of "waking up" after being devoted to the cult for so many years. (?) He really is a wonderful person with kindness and love towards others. If only we could talk about Prem Rawat and so much more. Who am I to burst his bubble? Wish I could talk to him about it all but he probably thinks that I'm the one who is lost. I don't try to confront him anymore about the Prem Rawat scam. If he knew I posted here he probably would not want to talk to me, like it would any difference with us after all these years. It was always only satsang and little more than that after all. He might die happy thinking he knows the Lord and All. But to me it's mostly sad. 35 years? A brother that was lost forever in this cult and beyond the point of no return. Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 03:45:21
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I know many people with ridiculous beliefs ranging from premies who believe that 'anything He says is Truth...LOTU etc', people who have a 'personal relationship' with dead alleged people like
Krsna, Jesus, Aliens that came here 30 million years ago, Lizards, David Icke etc.I tend to tell them exactly what I think the first time it comes up in conversation and make it clear that I don't appreciate any form of proselytation which I consider abuse. So , for my part, I only attack someone's beliefs if they try a number on me. Usually if anyone is really happy/contented with their beliefs, they don't push it on any one.(unless of course their belief system TELLs them to propagate, like Jehovas Witnesses). I don't honestly know how I would have handled it if my brother was a premie. I certainly laid it on my family when I became a premie. My brother is still my brother, and that was great help to me particularly when leaving the cult. He has always treated me as 'his little bro..', whether I was a fanatic-foot-kisser or reverted athiest. I can't really address your pain as I still find it hard to address the pain of lost realtionships because by my own involvement with prem Rawat.
love
Jethro edited for spelling
Modified by Jethro at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 04:54:44
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Hi Jethro, I just got back a couple hours ago from Chucky Cheese with my daughter and her friend. That was sorta fun but noisey. No more tokens thank goodness. Like I mentioned, I recieved knowledge in 1972 and I was mostly done with the cult by 1979. I'll explain my drips in the funny and not so funny "drip post " below. So I really didn't confront my brother about Prem Rawat until around 1984 when I told him what I really thought about Maharaj Ji and that didn't go over very well. Esp. when I told my brother that I would like to spit in Maharaj Ji's face. Unfortunately, I wasn't very tactful about how I felt at the time. I guess anger had been building up in me for years about Prem Rawat's world and I let my brother have it. I have no anger at my brother, because I was a premie too for a number of years and I understand what can happen. But I really dislike greedy Prem Rawat, not only for the time I wasted following him around etc. but also for the time my brother has lost over the years. Now add that time up with the thousands of people who lost their time too. Yikes! Can you imagine? Just the time alone spent singing arti by many of us over the years has got to add up to god knows how many hours. And for what? To burn the cult think into our heads forever. What a waste. I don't regret everything about the past, just some of it. I'm glad you were able to break free Jethro and that you had an older brother who was helpful to you when leaving the cult. I'd write more here but I'm gonna try to respond to the others here that responded to my post. Thanks Jethro! my spelling is not edited sorry
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Thankyou for your sensitive question,
Though I don't have the same family circumstances, I really feel the pain of this dilemma, having many friends who I loved almost as dearly. Not the forced brother, sister relationship of ashram life, but later when I thought I was out of it, living "normal" lives, we were premies almost only in name, at times. But when the call to Miami or Toronto or Wembley or Brighton or Spain or Australia came, off everybody went.
Those weekends in Denver, Malibu, London, etc. etc. while "everybody" was at the programme were lonely. The community seemed almost deserted. Then I realised over and over that too many of my friends were premies.
Gradually and eventually with much greater connection, laughter, loyalty and mutually human, psychologically friendly support; I met non premies.
I could live on the laurals of my past, with minimal signs of shared devotion. But once I had begun to be rumoured to engage people privately on these challenging subjects, and once I had spoken out loudly in company even in the street, with premie passers by, that:-
"The guru thing not only wasn't working but was one of the hazards of the modern world," they were afraid to speak to me. Even though they say, if we meet on a corner, things like "We must meet up, have a jam, go for a walk, I'll call you sometime" etc. they never do.
At the time, in my heart I still had a kind of faith in the truth seeking soul of premies, I was deceived: thinking that if a truth is stated clearly enough it will be understood.
Then I realized, somewhat to my horror, that one after the other had the same mind. Not really a mind, I should say the same disfunctionality of mind.
Logical argument, reasoning, straight facts could not reach them, their actual minds were locked away, behind certain preposterous, all encompassing beliefs which prevented the penetration of even the most carefully laid out arguments.
It is hard to describe the hopelessness, frustration and agonizing sense of wasted human life this is. And I am sure of that. Try as I have: happy though they proclaim themselves to be , silly old satsang as they try to give: I can't see it as OK.
If they have reached a stage where they are psychologically inextricable from their entanglement, I'm afraid I can only feel a great concern and an almost morbid sorrow for life lost. Try as I might, in all fairness, I fail to see it in any other light than a waste of life.
Yet, if this is the case, my opinions and feelings aside, (though I can't imagine it) I wish them well, or at least, a minimum of anquish and confusion. and hope they will not be too standing close when anything hits any fans.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 06:15:25
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While I remember this I must write it down, 'ere it descends into the mists of aging memory.
We were somewhere in India, Many mahatmas were on the stage. We were sitting, all in our Saffron around the feet of the thrones, and the family.
I don't remember who was giving satsang, it might have been Mataji, when suddenly my reverie was awoken by an odd whirring sound behind me. I think it was among the throng of colourful sari clad ladies who take it in turns to wave the manual fan.
Back to the whirring: which was rapidly turning into a laboured, sparky, electric kind of metallic ringing noise.
The end of the sari of one of the ladies had become entangled in one the large electric fans on a tall stand which stood at the side. She had stood behind it!
Satsang was barely even provided with a comma (,), it continued with only a casual glance.
As I sprang backwards to assist the few who were engaging wholeheartedly in the ensuing tug o' war, I saw that as they released a little, the fan quickly took up the slack, and the ladies left breast was, with her sari, being wound inexorably into the mix.
As I strode the two or three steps over some aged mahatma's heads, I was shaking, I felt sick, I was screaming, "Switch off the power, pull the plug, pull the bloody plug man", by the time I got to within a few feet of the plug, someone realised what I was saying and pulled the plug.
We turned to the entangled lady, I glanced up at Mataji on her throne and saw, in an instant, that she was unconcerned but gave me a dirty look for shouting and disturbing satsang.
We extricated the lady slowly winding the fan backwards, her breast, though it had become literally wound up in the fan, was wrapped in layers of cotton, and had somehow survived bruised but uncut.
Eventually, with a minimum of lost dignity, she was freed. Then I realized that the spectacle had brought satsang to a standstill and I was standing there with a lot of women worrying over her breast.
I went red with embarrassment, and sat down with many glowers from "holy family" and mahatmas and got the feeling, and the odd lecture afterwards, that I was not supposed to get involved in such matters: the grace took care of it. You can't win.
Lp
Modified by Saph at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 06:19:44
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What great posts. Saph, my man, you are on fire lately. Your posts are magical, exactly true and written with charm. Jethro, I can totally relate to what you say, exactly some of my issues, especially the losing of relationships due to cult entanglement. Thanks for that clear post. And Hilltop, your comment about your Bro finding out you "posted" here cracked me up. You not only post, you put out the entire kitchen sink with your back catalogues. Thanks. (Hilltop, can you please email me.) By the way, wake him up!
Modified by OTS at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 07:46:46
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Hi OTS, LOL - I was just thinking thanks to you. Wait till my brother sees my Prem Rawat picture with the horns on his head. I'll probably have to set up an alter and prostrate on the floor 100 times to a normal picture of Prem Rawat. Or at least sing arti a few times. I guess I shouldn't joke about it but I can't help it sometimes. That's just me. I'm bad. Forgive me. OK... I'll get your email and write to you soon. Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 00:07:56
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Hi Saph, Another great and interesting post. Reading you words makes me think about some of the things I remember when I was a premie. So many stories. Like the one time... in 1975 they use to have satsang in that old building in downtown Denver. There was this premie who got up front to give satsang to everyone. He started out ok with the usual I'm so grateful stuff and then began telling the "frog in the well" story only he made the story really funny and changed it a bit. He changed how he was sitting too and now looked like a frog with his legs and even did some sounds to go with the story. ribbit ribbit. I couldn't help but laugh and a few others did too. He was making this important satsang story sound funny and ridiculous. Well, some of the premies in charge there didn't like it so they went over to his chair picked him up in the chair and carried him off into another room. A few of us there said wait let him talk and finish. But too late he was gone rather quickly and then someone else got up to give satsang. Some of us talked about it afterwards and I was informed that he was a bongo. I learned a new word which has been used many times over the years to discribe a premie who is different. Your story about the fan in your next post is a good one! It reminds me of the time I was in India in 1972. Anyhow, Guru Maharaj Ji was driving one of his cars there and ofcourse the premies nearby wanted to see him including me. Well the next thing you know Prem runs over a dog. The car slows down a little more... Prem Rawat gives everybody a dirty look and then drives off. One of the Indian premies there commented afterwards that the dead dog had a lot of grace and was very fortunate to have been hit by the lord. I have a snap shot somewhere of Prem's face looking out his car window after this happened. Poor animal, the dog that is. As always Saph your thoughtful words are insiteful and a pleasure for me to read. I agree with how you view the premies and like you said I wish them well too. Wish I could say more. Thanks LP. Your friend... Hilltop
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Hilly, I don't think there can be any certain answer to your 'question'. Though the pivotal point seems to me to lay within your sentence: >Maybe it is better for them to be a "lifer" for Prem Rawat then to go through the trama of "waking up" after being devoted to the cult for so many years. (?)< There is no guarantee that your brother or any other premie will be able to live out their lives without being confronted with the failings of the Rawat belief system. Rather than offering a comfort zone perhaps the cult should be seen as a town built on a fault line - with the poorest and least well protected residents the ones who will suffer most when the 'big one' hits. In that circumstance it may be a kindness to at least let friends and relations know that there is a place of safety where they can come and stay should disaster strike - even if having that discussion prompts some earthquake anxiety. Nik
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Hi Nik, This is great! Because it gives me the opportunity to Thank You for all your very intelligent and helpful posts over the years. I've been wanting to say that for a long time. Nik I esp. liked what you said here... "In that circumstance it may be a kindness to at least let friends and relations know that there is a place of safety where they can come and stay should disaster strike - even if having that discussion prompts some earthquake anxiety." Thanks again Nik, you have a kind heart. Sincerely, Hilltop
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Hello Hilltop My honest answer is that I don't know and do not have a comparable situation. For many years now ..those closest to me..most of my friends and all of my family, brothers, sisters, wife, kids are people who have never been premies and have never been even slightly attracted by Rawat (you can see what an influential role model I have been). In fact... as far as I can work it out all of the premies that I have known well enough to call friends ..including quite a crowd of around twenty or thirty of us back in the seventies ...either just drifted off years ago or are now ex-premies. .. ..so maybe just introduce me to your brother...?! More seriously though I think you are right to just stay steady, be a brother and let life be the teacher. Just like all of us your brother will be accumulating drips while on the surface there is no apparent change. Just as for the rest of us, the dam will break and the truth will out. Could be a very sudden . I didn't quite know it at the time but for me it all just broke one afternoon. Watch out you premie lurkers ..it could be you next! This July in Brighton I exhibit the greatest trust in M that any father could ....I took my own daughter along to hear him .. Why are there so many sales desks and pictures...? drip Why take my camera away and not just trust me not to use it ..? drip Seated near front (yes I admit it..I was a bloody sponsor) next to Gopi who quickly turns into 'monster' following suggestion that she might swap places with daughter who is at other end of line of empty seats that she is guarding. Gopi angrily calculates that alternative seat is slightly further away from 'him'. ..er.only asked ..help. ? drip. Usher gets involved .... all gets a bit complicated ... daughter looks on in amazement ... ? drip. Daughter and I move 8 seats along. 20 minutes to go....Gopi seen gamely continuing to defend empty seat territory from various further attempted incursions. 15 minutes to go 'They think its all over' ..the ushers are moving in but Gopi still fighting back...frantic mobile phone activity ..'they are just outside parking'. 5 minutes Oh no.. 'It is now' . ..doors closed..Gopis friends miss the divine cut ...waves of barbarian hordes move in from the back and the seats are taken. ....so why is everyone here so obsessive and stressed ...? drip. The show begins dead on time.... but why ? why be so unkind to Gopi who even cares if she sits a metre nearer the front? ..drip? Parking isn't easy here, many people are getting on a bit and this isn't supposed to be about precision engineering but 'a talk from the heart about life' ..drip? M's talk ..about happy people being more likely to drive courteously and an even more infantile story about a lion that thought it was a sheep ...the man's heart is obviously not in it .. this is a tired performance.. who and why are these people clapping ..drip, drip? Outside in the lobby ....I used to live in Brighton and I don't recognise a soul here ...drip? Getting my camera back....Two young people nearby talking about the 'inspiration' from M. ...Oh my god...not much older than my daughter ....drip, drip drip. Lets get out of here.....fast! Back outside and down to the sea! EPO (thanks all) one week later and it all falls into place... Love Tim
Modified by tommo at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 09:47:02
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This July in Brighton I exhibit the greatest trust in M that any father could ....I took my own daughter along to hear him .. Phew... that was trusting Tim. Glad you saw the light and got out... Quite a dripping story. May I ask how many people attended the event? Dave 
Modified by Milarepa at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 09:41:48
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thanks Dave, ..the 'Do I want to encourage my kids down this road?' question does force some deeper questioning...(even albeit that kids will be never be led anyway) Maybe just having kids in their late teens is an exit trigger in its own right? On numbers ..I don't know. The impression I had was of people having trouble with parking etc causing late arrival and no shows. best Tim
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....is how I would describe the numbers.
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Hi Lexy, Thanks for that, but its still not really helpful for me because I don`t know the size of the venue. Did you go? What was it called btw? I`m trying to get a handle on the figures.... are we talking about a hundred... two hundred... five hundred.... a thousand....two thousand... five thousand.... more? I`m beginning to wonder just how many practicing premies there actually are in the UK? In fact, I`d like to know how many there have been since m first appeared on the scene? Dave
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I`m trying to get a handle on the figures.... are we talking about a hundred... two hundred... five hundred.... a thousand....two thousand... five thousand.... more? I didn't know you were un-clued in to that extent Dave ! I'm hopeless at assessing numbers. The Brighton Centre, I think it's called.Quite a big venue. Tell you what....have you been to the new "Sage" venue on the bank of the Tyne,by the new millenium bridge in Newcastle ?.......well the large concert hall there is about the size of the Brighton Centre ( Arena or whatever it's called). ....Numbers....more than a thousand.....more than two thousand I think......not as many as five thousand. The amount that would reasonably fill a large concert hall.........but not seething ,like it was in the old days.....and some areas quite empty. There must be some numbers crunchers that post here and can do a lot better than me............. Tommo....how many people were at the programme you attended ?
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Thanks Lexy... ..it`s been years since I did a proggy. I think Wembley Arena around the late 70`s was the last one. More than two thousand and less than five is at least a number I can visualise. If anybody does have a more specific number it would be appreciated.
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Dave, Lexy The programme was international and introductory so not just UK premies. My 'ball park' guess would be about 2500- 3000 attendance ? UK premiedom has about 7 or 8 'regions' ...across all of these regions there are maybe 100-150 people core to helping things run and, behind this, maybe about a thousand who are 'active' in the sense that are regularly contributing financially. Aside from money taken at the programmes which must be considerable (e.g. 70 Euro ..normal price and 250 Euro 'sponsor' ticket prices for forthcoming 3000 seater 1-2 h event in Barcelona!) I would guess that this active community are donating maybe an average of £3-500 per year = £ 0.3-5M yr. Then beyond the 'active' circle a fringe of maybe another 1 - 1500 who still turn up to programmes and identify themselves as 'premies'.... all just guesses but based on numbers I saw turning up at London and South participation meetings etc. in recent years. Overall I doubt that that there are more than 2000-2500 premies in the UK. Using the (statistically rather imperfect) sample of people that I have known this rump is maybe 3-5% of all the people that took Knowledge? i.e. Unlit matches 19 ..Premies 1 if it was a football game. best Tim
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That`s brilliant Tim.... thanks.
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thanks yes...nothing like a dose of facts to add to this somewhat speculative numerical thread. In that case 3329  best Tim
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It's really interesting and I can get a picture of what you felt from your words....just plain real. Thanks. Yes, maybe pappa bear and mother bear emerge wanting better for our kids....
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......The programme was Brighton a few years ago ( something about Brighton that gives the game away....is it because Elan Vital is based down there and the obsessive ,positively weird, control freakery stands out like a sore thumb and is way outside the norms of human behaviour). My suspicions were aroused just trying to register on the internet.I couldn't register without paying....I didn't mind paying but my wheelchair bound friend and his wife couldn't afford it.....so I had to pay for them in order to reserve a wheelchair seat. Like you I had noticed for several programmes before that there were too many gift stalls selling increasingly bad taste very tacky trinkets. There was no longer any kind of inspirational vibe in the foyer, in fact it was getting spooky ....more like a biblical "money-changers in the temple" a la New Testament feeling.For the last few programmes I hardly saw anybody I knew,whereas in the past it was friends reunited.I ,premie since 1973,felt increasingly like a stranger. I had decided beforehand that,having paid online for three quite expensive tickets that I couldn't really afford, and having driven all the way there with my friends, I wasn't going to put up with any bullshit.After all when I pay for a ticket to West End show I expect value for money. Managed to park and get in. After usual queues and difficulties we collected our tickets........the trouble started when I got inside. I was told I couldn't sit with my friends but had to go somewhere quite far away. I refused as I was the driver and I didn't want to lose them (wheelchair etc ) in the crowd.....anyhow...if you go to the theatre you expect to sit with the friends you go with.The usher presumed (I suppose) that I was " in my mind" and ordered me to obey him ( years of this kind of surreal nonsense happening at programmes and all the angst over something so simple flashed through my brain) I got angry with him (not very) and before he could chuck me out found myself a seat not as far away as he had wanted and stayed there.I was observed for the rest of the programme in case of any bongo outbursts. I saw the knowledge review for what it was...a cheap,easy way of filling in time. I wasn't particularly inspired by Rawat's talk, in fact I got bored and nearly dozed off at one point. After,and despite everything, I tried to buy a new photo for my wallet....but couldn't find one remotely nice pic.I still couldn't admit that Rawat had become ugly...it was just those photos. There was no more bliss, no more inspiration; just an old tired cult. Once I was on-line at home ,I checked out EPO..........Bob Mischler's oh so clear interview and Mike Finch's honesty signed the death warrant to my premie life. Thanks for your clear and unequivocal posts Tommo.I really appreciate them.
Modified by lexy at Sat, Oct 14, 2006, 18:35:06
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It's interesting reading other peoples' accounts of when the pennies began to drop, but they never did for me, despite seeing all the things that both you & Tim mention.
The last time I was there was 96 or 7, I forget, for one of those 2 day numbers, & I noticed that the control freakery seemed to be a great deal less than it had been in previous years, (finally the org getting its act together ?), but yes, that the foyer was full of tacky knick knack stalls with high price tags (well, the lord needs the money, & what the hell, it must be to someone's taste)
I preferred to pop a 20 into one of those little white envelopes.
The lack of familiar faces I just put down to the fact that not everyone could afford to be there, & that anyway, the old days when attendance was obligatory had long gone, & that...........I don't know really. I guess I just didn't think about it much, only noticed.
Rawat on stage. That was probably only the 4th or 5th time I'd seen him in the flesh since 1985, & he seemed pretty affable in comparison with the screaming perfect master days, laid back even, though still prone to saying things that didn't make sense.
By then though I'd done it, I knew what it was all about.
All those years of forcing myself to... 'don't have concepts', 'never leave room for doubt in your mind', which had caused me so much pain & turmoil in my youth, had finally borne fruit, although I'd more or less forgotten about those days at that point.
It was just me & him, united in Holy Name. Very blissful, premie ji.
How it all came together, who put in the hard graft, I neither knew nor cared, not having had anything at all to do with premies for years. I had, still have, a couple of old friends who I relied on to keep me 'in touch', but as for premies in general..........strange people I didn't really want to know, most of them, with their side beliefs in mumbo jumbo, & their chaotic multiple relationships.
I went for a cup of tea into the bar of the Grand Hotel, is that the right name, the place next to the conference centre where the IRA tried to kill Margaret Thatcher, & there was a group of front row types standing around. They all looked at me as if to say.... who is this guy, where does he fit in......I've seen that look many times in different situations, & it always amuses me.
To get it you need to be wearing the right clothes, look the part, that's all. One pretty woman with a discontented face looked more than once, & I know what that's all about too.........power, sex, money, in its age old, wrapped up in one, delusion of happiness. I felt sorry for her, that she should be so near the presence, yet so far from it within, when I was sparkling in silence, all desire gone.......apart from wanting a cup of tea of course, but let's not quibble.
It was only when I typed 'Maharaj Ji' into my 1st internet connection, in order to see how it worked, that I understood, & boy, it felt like someone had cut the top of my head off & rearranged my brain..........for a couple of weeks. After that I managed to glue it back on again, but I'm still not entirely sure I got the fit right.
Yeah, I almost ended up loving Big Brother.
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My suspicions were aroused just trying to register on the internet.I couldn't register without paying....I Could have even been me that you spoke to if you phoned up to see if there was a way around. In recent years I helped out with registration (phone registration for people without internet or other queries). I liked helping the premies although it was becoming ever clearer that those without money were becoming second class citizens in the 'world of knowledge'. Funnily enough I remember one year a big panic because I had registered someone that EV 'had a problem with'...nobody would explain what it was exactly but was given a response and line to take if he phoned again (I hadn't even heard of ex-premies at that point and had absolutely no clue) 'gift stalls selling increasingly bad taste very tacky trinkets. There was no longer any kind of inspirational vibe in the foyer' Yours is indeed a similar story...just took me a bit longer. I had spent so many programmes, just ignoring the evidence of my own eyes that it was all vanity and tack, not really knowing or talking to anyone (what can you say by way of conversation or commentary after one of M's talks.. .none of it make any sense....there is absolutely nothing to converse about afterwards). I knew that it all felt 'wrong' but ..well you understand.....as a practicing premie you do not trust your own feelings ...and believe that the next meditation, the next breath, the next talk from M...you will somehow find yourself 'back' in 'Clarity'. Anyway ..it is truly wonderful and in fact joyful to be an Ex. Maybe we could generate some badges and our own tac? Two wonderful walks in the autumn woods today. Very grateful for your posts too Lexy thanks Tim
Modified by tommo at Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 16:23:56
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Hi Tim, What a great post! It belongs in the ***Best OF*** catagory. Wow what a story. You made me laugh too... "so maybe just introduce me to your brother...?! You took your daughter to a program. Yikes! I thought about that very question a few times to myself... would I want to take my daughter to a program? Without a moments hesitation my answer back to myself has always been... NO WAY! But then again I haven't gone to a program since the late seventies. I'd like to sneak into one (just me) and observe, just for the hell of it. Just kidding. No thanks. I enjoyed reading your drips. I enjoyed every word. My major drips happened back in the late seventies. One of the smaller drips (and there were many) happened back in 1972 when a blissed out premie gave Prem Rawat their huge beautiful house in New York, furniture and all. Some of us newbies went there after getting knowledge. I helped move some of the furniture into a big moving truck. I found out a few years later that this person was homeless and looking for a place to stay. But the biggest drips for me was when the community satsang was done away with, along with the Guru's agya - no more chit chat... Geez no talking? DRIP. The message from our superiors was that we need to throw away or burn all the old magazines, etc. was a Red Flag Drip for me. And the message to donate even more money to the Guru for his jet made me drippy wet. There are others but those are some of the big ones that made me stop wanting to see the lord. I'm glad you got out of that program fast! And your story has a happy ending after all. Thank You Tim for your great post! Dripfully Yours, Hilltop
Modified by Hilltop at Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 02:26:05
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Hi Hilltop,
I have almost exactly the same situation. The dates are a year out. My brother has gone bankrupt twice getting to the progs.
But he seems happy. We have a laugh. We don't mention the elephant in the room, and this far down the road, I don't see why I should. Of course everything is tainted with the cult perspective, but I know it well myself, and can filter it out and then we get along great. I intend to leave it this way, unless he discovers the benefit of EPO or something like that.
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Hi 13, It's always a pleasure to read your posts. Thanks for telling me about you and your brother, having almost the same situation and all. That helps. I think what you said in your post has really touched me in a good way. Part of me feels ashamed for posting about my brother on the forum like I did, but it's to late now. However, the good part about it is that I got to read all the great helpful input by you and everyone else here, whom I respect. So Thank You.
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....you are a dark horse ! You've never mentioned that before since I've been posting. I have five brothers and sisters and am the only one to have got involved in the cult.My family thought I had gone mad and I've always been treated as the crazy sister who followed a guru. I have always been completely different to the sister closest to me in age; pre-cult, during the cult, and post cult.....we have nothing much in common and it can leave me feeling lonely sometimes.
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Hi Lexy, Yeah, I don't write much. My spelling is bad and it seems hard for me to express myself with words for some reason. Wow you have a big family. Does your brother still play the banjo? Don't be too hard on yourself for getting involved in the cult when no one else in your family did. It can happen to the best of us. At least you got through it which isn't an easy thing to do as many of us know. Sorry that you feel lonely sometimes about your sister. I can relate to what you say. I've been feeling that way too only in my own situation. I think it helps to talk about it. Anyhow Lexy, I wish the best. Give your sister a call maybe. I think I'll start talking more to my family. Dark Horsefully, Hilltop
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Yes,Hilltop, that brother does still play the banjo ! He plays at a cowboy themed hotel at Disneyland, Paris.He was auditioned when they first opened about 13 years ago and has been in France with his family ever since.He sees himself as very lucky for a musician as he has a steady job; quite well paid too.( he had to shave off his moustache though as Disney cult rules say he must be clean-shaven) His contract forbids him to play for money elsewhere....but he's allowed to "guest" (ie. at the Ohio country festival ) so he accepts some invitations during his holidays.You saw the pic where he played on stage with his banjo hero (Earl Scruggs) but he has also been invited by Dolly Parton and really liked her and played at Dollywood.Anyhow my bro is nice and friendly so if anyone visits Disney with their kids he will always sit at their table and chat ,play their favourite number etc I have another older brother who is a banjo playing barman. He has a whole family of Banjos.He buys vintage good ones and restores them.He lives in a small town near me and has started giving banjo lessons.......everybody wants to learn ( all ages)and he'shad to restrict the numbers.Even a local Policeman is one of his pupils ! Banjomania. (p.s. in case this story sounds ridiculous,cq has met him and his family of banjos ! )
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He really is a wonderful person with kindness and love towards others. If only we could talk about Prem Rawat and so much more. Who am I to burst his bubble? Wow, that's hard to answer. I am a STRONG believer that we're better off with truth than with delusion, but who am I to intrude on someone's world if I'm not sure I can improve on what he has now? God clearly doesn't force himself on anyone--who am I to become a truth aggressor? If someone is harming no one (but himself) and makes the clear 'don't tell me' sign I just back off, even if it's a near and dear one. I guess, too, I'm still thinking that K wasn't all bad for everyone--it seems like your brother is functioning better than a lot of people! It's maybe a little like my sister who's on psychiactric meds for depression: the meds mess her up, but not as badly as the depression. So I'll answer like this: when someone makes it clear that they don't want to hear what I have to say, then I will generally feel it a kind of violence to try to MAKE him listen to me. If he's driving drunk, violence is in order to protect innocent lives. Other than that kind of public protection scenario, I try treat him nice and to be at peace within myself (!?). Talk about football or the lovely sunset and try to be laughing about something sometimes.
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Hi ChuckGood to see you posting, and your thread getting lots of great responses. I agree with you about imposing your ideas on others. I personally think it is fine, good even, to stand up and say what you think and feel in the right situations. But there is a line between that, and starting a crusade to make others think the way you do. For myself, I try carefully not to cross that line. My website is a public statement of what I now think, and is not an attempt to persuade anyone of anything - although if they are persuaded, that is good too! There is no question that Maharaji's cult and belief-system have hurt a lot of people, but there are certainly worse cults we could have joined! Take care -- Mike
www.MikeFinch.com
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When someone close to you has been doing this stuff for 35 years. Maybe it is better for them to be a "lifer" for Prem Rawat then to go through the trama of "waking up" after being devoted to the cult for so many years. (?) There's only so much anyone can do other than express the truth once or twice to a premie. It's especially difficult when you're dealing with a loved one. I have personal experience with this too, but not to the extreme with your situation. I decided to keep the relationship and ignore Rawat, otherwise, the relationship would have ended, which is something I don't want to happen. In my case, I don't try to dispel all the strange belief system ideas the person has either, because I need the relationship and the love we have much more than I want them to leave Maharaji. So, I live with it that way, knowing I made them aware of the truth and trust them to make their own life decisions. We can't force people to change and be different. You probably have much more in common with your brother than Prem Rawat, anyway. Emphasize those commonalities, not the differences. Go for the love in it -- life it too short. Besides, I'm sure you're the only one who's aware of that big fat elephant in the room. Whattaya gonna do? You can't force anyone to see something they don't want to see. Cynthia
Modified by Cynthia at Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 13:17:43
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Jeeze, there are so many other issues that people never wake up to aside from being in a cult. How sadly true. I have a friend or two who will say they wish everyone around them would just wake up--these same friends I observe fairly often in one or another sleepwalking or especially sleeptalking state. Most critical of others--most unaware of our own shortcomings. I also appreciate 'emphasize the commonalities, not the differences'. That was a key to the deception of Knowledge, that it was somehow unique, that it made us unique in some way. Bull. I never really believed that completely, even at my most dazzled. The stronger the bond is, the more likely you are to have that defenses-down moment when you can say what you want to -- and be heard. Cynthia, U R OK Chuck
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You did well to get away so early.I wish I had, but I had various "needs" that were being satisfied or looked as if they would eventually be fulfilled in the cult. Anyway I had pleged my whole life in one mighty vow so that was that! As a good boy,I took my commitment to "Him" very seriously. The main fault of it all imo was that it wasn't grounded. The closest it came to earth was the physical body of the master.Most philosophies have a consequential ethical dimension of some kind. M and K never touched the real world anywhere. Consequently the whole "flying circus" was susceptible to endless shifting and moral opportunism.The only ethical attribute woven into it seemed to be "obey the will of the master at all costs and get away with what you can". Not really much of an insight for a complex 21st century personality to run with really! The "high" cosmic stuff was fair enough as far as it went and I had plenty, but it was never contextualised: useful as social capital among the flock and that was about it. Personally I longed to get out and dazzle the world with my mighty insights (for Him of course!). but thank heaven I never got the chance in any big way!! So embarrasing to recall propagation efforts. Tragic. Yeah that was it all in all. It was never in any way grounded. Nice to see you here Chuck Love Bryn
Modified by Bryn at Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 09:44:39
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Most philosophies have a consequential ethical dimension of some kind. M and K never touched the real world anywhere. Consequently the whole "flying circus" was susceptible to endless shifting and moral opportunism. Yes. I remember looking around as a new premie and wondering where all the world-changing work was going on.... That should have been a big hint --a drip--that all was not right in M's world, but by then I was so caught up that it didn't matter. I've seen recent effusions about how statesman M is inspiring charitable projects--the same hype as from old 'And it is Divine' magazines I saw in 1980. Yeah, the more I read here the more fortunate I see myself to have suffered no more ill effects than I did. I didn't give up family, didn't have money or property to toss away. Thanks.
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