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Here's a very long post, I do not mention Rawat once, it's all not about him.
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Posted by:
lesley ®

03/23/2017, 19:01:18
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Peace at any price is not a good idea.  It matters how you make it.

I believe in love.  

I have always known it’s the most important thing, even more than food and that’s saying something.

I saw the last part of one of those science shows on the telly.  Brian Cox was discussing the theories of the end of the universe with a few people.  At the end of the day we were in a universe that was an expanding hole in a slab of swiss cheese.

Inescapable really, the idea that just like there are lots of rabbits there are lots of universes.  Annoying really, to someone who likes words – what do they think the damn word means?  The universe is the slab of swiss cheese and don’t tell me there’s other slabs of swiss cheese or I’ll tell you they’re all part of the universe too.  Keep me happy – give me multi-verses if you like but not multi-universes.

I have to admit - that slab of swiss cheese is sounding rather like a slab of flesh to me.  Our reality, the stars in the night sky, all the way to the outer reaches of the known universe and beyond, really could be a single molecule in the flesh of a giant.

We really don’t know what we are a part of.   We’re all agreed about that.  

But we do have our instincts.  

We got ideas we got theories we got feelings in our waters, we got beliefs and by god we have convictions.  What we have is in our blood.

I have this sense that at some point way back in the mists, when procreation started to need two sexes, it was a storage issue that caused it - I trust you to keep track of this and I will keep track of that.  Between us we got this thing covered.

I don’t really believe in mathematics.  I mean what about pi – a number you can’t reach the end of.   It all seems to get a bit wobbly and messed up round the edges and all these engineering feats the telescopes and rocket ships and bionic ears – the list is massive, terrifying, soul destroying – it’s all ill-gotten gains.  Wait til you get to the bottom of pi, I say, before you make your mark on the world.

I believe in us.  I tend to believe that we know what we’re doing when we don’t know what we’re doing.  

Okay, maybe I do believe in mathematics – the uncanny precision of those effortless calculations we make without thinking.  Just don’t get the ruler out and second guess yourself.

To believe in someone, to trust, having faith in them is, I think, the greatest gift you can give.

 This very big something happening that we are such a very small part of – we got our feelings about it.  Somehow it matters.  It feels sentient.  When I am dying, when the blood no longer pumps and I am cooling, I know from experience I will turn to the warmth of that sentience and feel the loving embrace that is mine.

Why that feeling that there is a love that is forever.  Is that true?  I believe it but what sort of true is it.  

Much as we know about dying, dead is different.  We’re not sure what that will be like at all really are we.  There is ‘the visitation’ - many people experience having a conversation with a dead loved one two days after they’ve died.  Many people experience a guardian angel effect for years to follow – one that can even find you a parking spot.  But it’s not cut and dried, is it.  We really don’t know if it’s a sign there is a soul-life after death,  or a phenomena of memory in the living.  Or even a state of flux with a bit of both.  

More or less I think what I believe is in living souls.  Dead, I mean dead gets to the bit where even your family doesn’t know you have ever existed.  But people talk about seeing their child’s soul at conception.  I believe them, it‘s an interesting wrinkle isn’t it.  At conception?  Like a fairy flying in the window - does that soul have a pre-existence, or was that a picture made from one of those awesome calculations, one that shows what is coming from what had just occurred.

In honour of Aslan, I call it the deep magic.  To me all these experiences come from a carpet under the forest, a deep down pulse of life that begs to be obeyed.

From the back of my mind comes that butterfly in the Amazon, one beat of it’s wing causing who knows what - what is it like for the butterfly? It’s feeling the air, it’s in touch with something that is all round the planet, but mainly, it is feeling for the air beneath it’s wing.







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Fabulous post Lesley
Re: Here's a very long post, I do not mention Rawat once, it's all not about him. -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Kelly ®

03/24/2017, 06:16:10
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Honest and true. Will respond at a bit more length later. If time permits.

Btw Science has discovered that there's a flash of light at the moment of conception! x







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thanks Kelly. nt
Re: Fabulous post Lesley -- Kelly Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/24/2017, 15:58:02
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Off Topic -- in pursuit of reality
Re: Here's a very long post, I do not mention Rawat once, it's all not about him. -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/24/2017, 15:30:04
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"I tend to believe that we know what we’re doing when we don’t know what we’re doing."  

First, wanting to be brief...apologies for my lugubrious writing style with its pretensions of or anyway attempts at intelligence...

Always it's interesting to read what someone other than one's self writes in expression of their deepest and subtlest beliefs in life.  Surely I don't grasp but miniscule of the all the good in the substance behind what you are saying.  

But especially the quote above that I've pulled from your post seems to me a very odd thing to say, and it grabbed my attention prompting a little response of my own here.  In that sentence I think there is something of an idea prevalent or common in many areas of human attitude toward the world we live in, something important to note. 

I think it is rather more accurate to recognize that it is precisely when one doesn't know what one is doing that one does NOT know what one is doing, not the curious converse as you state it. 

This seems to me a very simple and obvious point of sanity and navigation in life, after all my explorations.  The lovely poetry of the Magics and Maybe are interesting to explore, contemplate, think about, and enjoy, but most importantly, to the existence of human race, and after all to myself, I think it is critical to carefully balance all those Intangibles against what is empirical and clearly known to the mind, and, really, what is known to all of one's most fully awake apperception in one's best light of rationality.  

For this I have discovered I must exercise my brain a bit more and quite differently than I did during all that time in my life when all mental exercise was avoided as misleading other than when employed in the absorbing of sounds coming out of the mouth of Prem Rawat, and others I might encounter.  (Just telling by the way about myself, I've been actually now and again attempting somewhat more of a rigorous course of very conscious discernment in "thinking for myself" as an exercise of attitude in moving through my waking hours in background of all activity daily life.  ...probably an effort not unlike what others posting here attempt to do.)
  
A facility of magic-thought is I think of course something of the evolved capacities arisen in us human creatures, and so there must be some use to it -- giving it only a cursory glance for the moment, perhaps the facility of magic-thought is a buffer of comfort against more raw un-fiddled perception of realities, a way of easing oneself through life.  

But I'm aware that there are quite limiting parameters to what my brain and consciousness can gather of the reality of existence and of the "universe". Who could ever really expect a human being could be all-knowing; surely we have only a tiny human-evolved peep-hole to seeing all what IS.  I cannot find a way to bring myself to believe there exists something such as a Buddha-like all-knowing realization anywhere akashically pervading everything or within or surrounding any creature.

I always suspect that my best course is to use and go on what is clearly recognized in the parameters of my brains direct understanding.  Further I suspect (or  hope?) that through the trial and error of a lifetime in ongoing direct perception of empirical reality that the acuity has improved a bit in making some use of things experienced clearly, assessing pragmatically the nature of reality and honing perceived specifics in viewing and navigating life, in effect expecting there to have been a bit of increase in "understanding" and "thinking" ability.  It may be this is not so.  

  

Anyway maybe this is all merely my own blather.  I have nothing but a small trace of illusion as to understanding what's going on in your or anyone else's brain behind the words written or spoken, though I often may say I perfectly understand you.  

In general I strongly suspect something actually more nuanced and different is going on other than "we are all one in the spirit" -- and I would like to always be giving it a hearty go toward devising practical meaning out of all this "what is going on."

In tearing haste,
Tarvuist -- what have I been smoking







Modified by tarvuist at Fri, Mar 24, 2017, 15:39:04

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Re: Off Topic -- in pursuit of reality and that curious converse
Re: Off Topic -- in pursuit of reality -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/25/2017, 20:50:44
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Thanks Tarvuist.  

I think you could call it a phenomenon - something that plenty of people experience but we're not exactly sure what's going on.

They've tried to test it empirically but I don't think the tests themselves are satisfactory because testing whether someone can guess a number or whatever - well even that gave a result of 51% - but it's not a good test because there's no real personal relevance so why should you be able to guess the right number.

What happened to me was I was working on a stained glass window for Rawat's Brisbane house.  Near the end I was cutting the last strips of lead and was going fine but then I started to worry that I didn't have quite enough lead to finish.  I decided to be very accurate in my cutting and got out the ruler, measured it and cut the lead 10mm too long and so I had to trim it.  Damn.  I don't just measure once I measure twice on the next piece.  10mm too long again!  I dumped the ruler.  I finished all accurate cuts from then on and I plugged the 10mm shortfall on the last piece with one of the trimmings and a nice big solder onto the join.

So that was when it started - my flirtation with the idea of crediting yourself with knowing what you know without knowing it.  My eye was accurate without intervention - in fact when I resorted to checking with a ruler, I fluffed it.  It's a confidence thing I guess.

It grew from there - the next thing you know I am thinking my instinctive reckoning is accurate and blimey yes, and what a shock that was.  So very deeply yes, at least for me as the type of human that I am, my instinctive understanding of reality is better than what I can work out in my head, what I can see on the outside is not enough. 








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Re: Off Topic -- Getting Pretty Nit-picky Philosophical Here... in pursuit of reality and that curious converse
Re: Re: Off Topic -- in pursuit of reality and that curious converse -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/25/2017, 22:23:38
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Why am I so on about this...!?
I think you could call it a phenomenon - something that plenty of people experience but we're not exactly sure what's going on.
Well, yes, there's plenty that goes on in my life while I'm not quite exactly aware of what's going on, or greatly unnoticing anyway, all part of unimaginably intricately sophisticated neurological networkings in body and brain that are pretty nifty.
...the idea of crediting
yourself with knowing what you know without knowing it. 

I'd have to say then you'd be knowing it, not lacking the knowing of it.  Am I being too picky. 

Your visual perception by your eyes can measure strips of lead in a different way, maybe even more direct way, than to look at the ruler against the gap, then hold and cut the lead piece, or mark it against the ruler and cut.  With the ruler there are more steps than just using your direct visual awareness and proprioception, sense of body position and movement, that your brain creates by synthesis of all the input...something like that. 

Right there that's some actual mechanism of knowing, not a mystery of instantaneous instinctual unknowing magic out of thin air.  Yes, we identify with this "instinct" as well as the surface level of awareness "I am" ...that's all "of who I am."

But if there's more to your idea of this, I need a better example of your "knowing something that you don't know."  ...or what you're getting at. 
....the next thing you know I am thinking my instinctive reckoning is accurate...
(But is it always accurate?!)  Instinctive reckoning...it's also a part of the manner of knowing, though applying the word "instinct" lends a bit of mysteriousness.  It's all a way of knowing about yourself, you know you have ability that you call instinctive reckoning.  ...that's a good part of knowingness to add into the full real process of assessing things.
...my instinctive understanding of reality is better than what I can work out
in my head, what I can see on the outside is not enough.

Better? 
Maybe both are quite equally good thing to have in your backpack for assessing and understanding, functioning in reality.  And
anyway doesn't your instinctive understanding also get worked out in your head, muscles and nerves, your mind/bodily self -- or where else is it possibly worked out?  Of course  hat's outside your body is not enough, you have a brain and head too in the equation.  Good thing we can think and see out of our eyes at the same time, and sort some practical understanding out of it in real time.

(I had a semester with a professor, William Poteat, who set out on his lifelong course of mental correction for Western Thought to extract us from the skewing of Rene Descartes' idea in the 16th century leading all future Western understanding of reality on a faulty course when he conceptually split apart the mind and body.  The words and speech we use strongly fixate our sense of the shape of reality.  Poteat was at an effort to bring human sense back home recovered to existence and full sentience grounded in our immediate mind/bodily presence in speech and thought.  ...something like Richard Alpert's "Be Here Now" only more elegant and solid.  I've been trying to make my way reading through Poteat's books with comprehension since then when I was twenty years old...with a short lapse of 38 years when I was following Prem Rawat's admonition against mind as an enemy.  Hah...so there's why I'm so on about this!)

Of course I should suppose I actually could be entirely ignorant of a whole realm of subtleness in consciousness to which you have full
access.

Really, I'm more interested in how your thinking goes
about these things than wishing you'd tighten it up in some random manner I might blunderingly want of you, or as a devotee of Poteat.  But I do like to expect thinking about things can be made more precise, or enhanced at least with friendly exposure to other's challenges.  ...or anyway some kind of creativity can be enhanced, if not mental precision.

Thanks for tickling out some thought with your flash of unexpected grammar
turning the knowing/not knowing inside-out ... or I should say
within-inside-out.








Modified by tarvuist at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 00:10:25

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Putting Descartes Before The Horse
Re: Re: Off Topic -- Getting Pretty Nit-picky Philosophical Here... in pursuit of reality and that curious converse -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Manincar ®

03/26/2017, 14:49:04
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I think the joke goes something like this: A horse walks into a bar, the bartender asks the horse "Are you an alcoholic?" To which the horse replies "I don't think I am." and poof he disappears .... you get the rest of it, little thanks to Descartes.

Nothing significant to contribute here, but I have been reading a great author recently Wade Davis. His 500 page biographical odyssey One River on the life of Richard Evans Schultes (Harvard ethno-botanist) is nothing short of astonishing. Or another of his books worth reading The Wayfinders, why ancient wisdom matters in a modern world.

Wade argues that we could learn a tremendous amount from "uncivilized cultures" and that as industrialized nations we have strayed far from our once natural instincts and traditions. Nothing new, but wonderfully expressed.

I am coming to a conclusion that philosophy, psychology, religion and spirituality are all flawed vehicles for understanding our place in the universe.
Not that I have found any profound answers quite yet. But I am much more comfortable with the Great Unknown now.

Rawatism was...and still is...a feeble crutch. A band aid on the collective human uncertainty. Even though I vividly remember years of profound inner peace (within-inside) while living as a practicing premie, I don't see separations and divisions of personal experience anymore. No more "us and them".

The whole concept of the mind and critical thinking (as being bad) was a smoke screen that he created to keep us off balance...in my opinion. He had no more clue as to what enlightenment was than we did. In fact I would suggest the exact opposite: We were much more divine than he ever was.

Two cents...out of change 







Modified by Manincar at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 15:26:07

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Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse
Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse -- Manincar Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/26/2017, 18:35:24
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...Wade Davis...Richard Evans Schultes (Harvard ethno-botanist) is nothing short of astonishing.

Yes..Schultes, and Wade Davis...interesting the academic kerfuffle from his thoughts on linguistics.  I've read his Shadows in the Sun, and Light at the Edge of the World, been looking for his The Clouded Leopard.  I'll have to find The Wayfinder, too now!

I am coming to a conclusion that philosophy, psychology, religion and spirituality are all flawed vehicles for understanding our place in the universe.

Yes, but maybe therein are some of the best of human attempts at developing brains, although overall of ramshakled cobbled-together sometimes cock-eyed understanding of the ways of the univers, no?...despite humans being lame by limited capacity of comprehension?  Much of that understanding and developed comprehension is so far beyond my capacities.  I guess even the best of brains and hearts might better not be expected to evolve into perfect mechanisms for comprehending all of reality anyway, and try to remember there are a few known unknowns recognizable while likely there are potentially limitless unknown unknowns.  Surely every kind of creature does it's best making a go with what it's got.

Rawatism was...and still is...a feeble crutch. A band aid on the collective human uncertainty. ... Even though I vividly remember years of profound inner peace (within-inside) while living as a practicing premie...

Kinda of how I feel about it too.  But I should say I do I think I surely learned a lot in all that time, even directly by the long "experiment" of my diving into the depths of it for decades...  Enjoyed some of it, some not.  And we're still here.

I don't see separations and divisions of personal experience anymore. No more "us and them".

Not sure of what you mean.  You mean not to compare and judge indescrimitably, or not at all!?

The whole concept of the mind and critical thinking (as being bad) was a smoke screen...  He had no more clue as to what enlightenment was than we did.

I think "mind bad" vs. discriminating mind is a meme, a religious or philosophical idea or utility in exercise of some sort of clean and proper practice  -- dogma aimed maybe to outwit generally some too-intricate convoluted habits of "free" mind tending to drift into the ozones and general self-harm to humanity, like maintaining a range of moral tenets for the masses against falling into degeneration.  

The full blinkered following of old-lineage wisdom was/is a central part of his inherited and ingrained honoring of the "venerable" guru line - of "higher wisdom", I think a module or meme, part of all that suffused into his own understanding of reality (and downloaded into ours) burned into his attitudes from all his background derived from his father, his childhood, and that ancient thousands-year culture of the subcontinent within which he was born and grew up.  

...and with which he handily, of course, made his profitable way navigating in the world to the best of his own lights as most "noble-ly" as he could devise, however faulty or excellent, cunning, overbearing, skewed or even criminally as he may variously seem to some of us who partook or to others from a distance.   

In fact I would suggest ...  We were much more divine than he ever was.

Hmmm... more divine than...I don't know.  For sure he's very much better at making money and amassing a useful subservient following than I am, but so was Mr. Schicklgruber who cut a nasty swath through his own culture and our world; Alexander Magnus who "conquered the world" and died on the way home, and, well, as so many of the "lights" of humanity lived out their grand time.  Mohandus Gandhi did a pretty good following without raking in loads of ostantious gelt for himself and still evoking never-ending admiration and adulation, and I've heard old Al Schweitzer very honorably did relieve lots of individual suffering without much money or following.  

Where's divinity in all of this; looking the other way averting the omniscient gaze, uninterested?, bored, disappointed? pulling all the strings and intimately pervasively involved in the minutiae, counting every sparrow's breath?, waiting for proper comeuppance for all in afterlife, or just has set the ball rolling and walked away wishing good luck if you can maintain good habits of human generosity among your fellows?..all in a universe on a drunken meander?... I wouldn't venture to comment about all that...not today anyway.

Two cents...out of change

Betcha got more change a'comin' anyway, and probably no eternal conclusions. 








Modified by tarvuist at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 19:19:06

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Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse
Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse -- Manincar Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Roark ®

03/28/2017, 11:30:51
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Hi Manincar,
Very funny, Decartes, the horse and all, thanks for that.
I am also a fan of Wade Davis's writings, particularly One River.
 
I've become very interested in the new, expansive wave of psychoactive plant use, and what we are learning.  The recent psychological studies extolling the virtues of controlled use of mushrooms, ayahuasca and such are compelling
in a good way.  I am hearing much, much more upside than downside talked about regarding this wave.
I am also at the periphery of Silicone Valley culture, and have become fascinated with the 'microdosing' phenomena, daily very small doses of LSD, Psilocybin and the like (particularly by software makers) to improve creativity and clarity.  It's a wake-up call to see how bright some of those lights are burning, and will be interesting to see how sustainable the related, gained internal understandings and modalities will be, and to what extent this will integrate into their behavior over time.
One thing though, the word 'mind' is such a catchall, a ridiculously broad term.  Some definitions of mind prelude any possibility of experience outside of it.  On this site, the reference seems mostly geared toward GMJ's use of the word as being the main obstacle to peace, which of course sets up a bewildering and unwinnable battle with oneself.  Might be a fun Sunday project to try to refine a coherent definition of mind for use here.
M






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Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse
Re: Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse -- Roark Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Manincar ®

03/28/2017, 18:03:46
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Hello Mr Roark, and tip of the hat to Mr Tarv. Yes I am ready to drop the broad reference to Mind...it's just too simplistic and only makes for easy target practice. Happy to move on...

But let's get straight to the matter at hand....Plant Medicines and the growing global interest therein. Full disclosure, I am a strong advocate and engaged participant in this wave, having done Mother Aya four times in the last year. Not really planning on visiting Iquitos any time soon, but in touch with many who do. 

This may not the be the proper forum for sharing such experiences, but I truly believe that we, as ex-premies, are still on a potent viable journey towards expanded awareness and all the lovely benefits that it entails. I have been quietly hoping to discuss this subject with others from our milieu for some time.

Yes microdosing is very popular in the Silicon Valley culture as well as...well just about everywhere (check Reddit for the many threads). I am involved with the organization MAPS.org pretty closely and have several years ongoing practice in numerous other compounds. All of which have benefited me on profound levels, and I have learned the value of set and setting while finding no need for any form of recreational use. 

Maybe the best I can say is that this is a very interesting new world indeed. The people involved are bright and motivated, as well as considerate and kind. Their commitment to healing the human spirit is quite impressive.

Obviously more to tell. To be continued.

Mark B






Modified by Manincar at Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 18:11:17

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Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse
Re: Re: Putting Descartes Before The Horse -- Manincar Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/28/2017, 18:45:43
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M and M ... keep me posted, like to link up.






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in pursuit of reality and still clinging to that curious converse
Re: Re: Off Topic -- Getting Pretty Nit-picky Philosophical Here... in pursuit of reality and that curious converse -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/26/2017, 20:49:56
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Hi Tarvuist - why are we on about it?  because it's interesting isn't it.  maybe we can extract some sense out of all the knowings with a bit of a rephrase.  'knowing what you are not consciously aware of'.

here's an example.  (my intuition was taken over by a pirate in case you're wondering why he's a he) 

I am in my front garden and in my head I am thinking it would be nice to pull a few more weeds tho I am feeling like I want to stop and go inside.  A few more weeds later and he whispers in my ear "don't you want to get out of the way of that ball of rage that is coming?"  A few more weeds and I am still turning that over wondering whether to take it seriously, I mean I'm trying to imagine what a ball of rage is and "No really, I'm serious"  and I go straight inside and oh goodness by the time I am upstairs there comes the tenant - I thought he was out but he must have been sitting in his flat getting angry.  and I am safely out of his way.

Don't we all have a list of examples of our own.  and no I can't think of any time it's wrong.  There's been times I've believed it's wrong.  Mainly because I couldn't believe it was that bad, frightening.  There is an aspect to intuition that's like an alarm clock.  little buzz - oh I don't like the drip on the end of his nose - hit the pause button, ignore it.  more insistent alarm - there's a gnome at the bottom of the garden, huh? hit the pause button.  eventually it is on and no pause button will work. 

But of course it is not infallible.  Look into the burnished shield of someone who has a fake persona and see yourself reflected.  

There is so much deception it ends up feeling like we are in a hall of mirrors by the time we get to middle age!

Of course it is good to have a head on my shoulders, much better than a parrot, more fun for the pirate.










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The Last Time I Saw Paris
Re: in pursuit of reality and still clinging to that curious converse -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/27/2017, 09:25:39
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Hi Lesley,  good morning,
I've had my morning cappuccino...  But still likely my head is much too paltry dense and inflexible to properly grapple with what you say so poetically of the subtleties of life on Earth.  ...the workings of my conscious and subconscious want, such foolish unsubtle mechanisms I have about me, to simply read knowing as knowing, as you now shift to carefully parse subconscious knowing. 

Things come to the surface of consciousness and one knows them, and intuition, being part of all perception that surfaces, joins the party.  Nothing mysterious I say.  What what!  PipPip cheers for he head rising above the shoulders.  Huzza!

You might say my finger mysteriously knows to lift itself off of the burner that's beginning to sizzle against it's feeling skin, because it has subconscious intuition, a subconscious knowing comes to it.  Sometimes mine senses in advance the danger and avoids it, sometimes it sizzles a moment first in poor or lagging intuition, sometimes my finger overcarefully mistakenly shies away even when the burner is cold.  But my finger never speaks to me silently in my head as a he or a she voice which I must judge right or wrong about the sizzling sensation, so maybe this isn't a kind of phenomena comparable to what you describe.

But this becomes a dorky battle over the meaning of words more than honing an inquiring mind, mine or yours or our good audience.  I was reminded and admonished myself yesterday just after a couple of my blustering postings ... some words I was reading from out of 1930s between the World Wars...

"One had to respect the beliefs of others and not continually be setting folks right about this or that, if one wished to live serenely in Paris."
               -- Elliot Paul, The Last Time I Saw Paris







Modified by tarvuist at Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 09:41:38

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The mysteries of life
Re: The Last Time I Saw Paris -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/27/2017, 14:49:42
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let's briefly outline the deliberately caused mysteries.  gas lighting is a phrase that comes from the Hitchcock movie where the husband wants to make his wife doubt her own sanity and does things like turn down the gaslight and when she says it's getting dim in here, he looks at her like she's nuts and says no it isn't.

one way and another there is a massive amount of that sort of mystery isn't there.  

Then there are the mysteries of life - I still remember my amazement when I first cut my finger.  First of all that ruby red drop of blood that formed, wow, and then oh my goodness the skin came back together again and you couldn't even see where the cut had been, it was like it had never happened.

okay so you get an answer - skin can heal itself.  Within that answer is a heap-load of mystery.  When you think about everything that has been learned about how skin heals itself it is enormous, and yet probably a drop in the bucket of what there is yet to learn about it.  It might even be a pi situation, no end to what we can learn and that would be mysterious.

Like what came first the chicken or the egg.  Can anyone answer that yet?  just something, some start at it would be good.  

When you talk about there being nothing mysterious the understanding I have of what you are saying is that there is no need to put an independent third party into it - no god who came along and zapped the cut finger back together, it is explicable by the nature of skin itself.  and I do agree.

But then the cut finger that gets kissed by the mother heals quicker and better.  Nobody has to tell the mother to do it.  Unless of course she has been told not to do it because her saliva is a contaminant.  Then she has a struggle on her hands between her instinct and learning.

Saliva is mysterious the way it changes, so is blood, it is all a bit mysterious when you get down to it.  But that doesn't mean anything goes.  It doesn't mean reality isn't precisely as it is.

That example you give, of seeing a light and the feelings associated with it and then sitting around being a premie for such ages - that happened to me too.  

With hindsight I was able to recognise that I was psychologically traumatised and responding to that.  But at the time I thought it meant Guru Maharaj Ji's Knowledge was for real, that it had brought me home.






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Relevant?...... to: "'knowing what you are not consciously aware of"
Re: in pursuit of reality and still clinging to that curious converse -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/27/2017, 12:42:20
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Re: ...that curious converse -- Knowing without Knowing it - My Own Example
Re: Re: Off Topic -- in pursuit of reality and that curious converse -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/26/2017, 12:30:59
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"...the idea of crediting yourself with knowing what you know without knowing it."

Wondering on again this morning about your idea of knowing without knowing, and what it might mean to you and to others, I've remembered an obvious experience of my own of Knowing when I didn't know something:

It's a very vivid memory scored in my brain. 
 
In a place pretty long ago now, and far from here...

Sitting in a darkened room with a few other people, eyes closed, I saw a huge light rise up from a pinpoint far deep within me, rise up from an indescribable distance within, a brilliance arising from the deepest obscure inside regions of the Within, from far deeper than my entire self-identity, expanding light rising up pervading all space and dissolving any semblance of separate self anywhere, dissolving all extent of limits of my physical and mental being, dissolving the boundaries of my awareness into the infinite, dissolving me into the warm indescribable glow of the unending source of love and beingness.  

Coming away from this, I KNEW I'd been exposed to seeing the ultimate essence of creation, origin of the idea of God, the Reality, the source of all love and life.  I knew it in every sense I might conceive any human Knowing to reach -- Truth in the ultimate eternal form, this brilliance blinding all illusion in this shining all consuming blast of Light from inside Beingness.  (I try to describe this exactly as perceived as it's so vivid in memory and was SO ultimately meaningful to me for most of my life.)

I knew this is Truth, I'd seen what I could call God, I understood all meaning and purpose in existence.
...obviously "The Knowledge" exactly as advertised.  It was suggested to me prior to promise not to describe that experience to anyone. I didn't.

Some 38 years later it occurred to me that was maybe "merely" an effect entirely neurological obviously in the neural matrix of my brain, not an inrush of consciousness, not an opening of my awareness into ultimate Reality and Understanding and Knowing.  

All those years I had been knowing something I didn't know.  So I do in this credit myself with knowing what I knew without knowing it, all that time subsequent.  

It was a very solid and very very comforting knowing until decades later I allowed myself to persistently think about it, which before I'd only accepted it condico sine qua non.  That was an exhilarating way of life, but I do prefer my present more rational sort of knowing and of exploring Reality.  

Wasn't that experience long ago merely a kind of persuasive "in my face" intuition based on my within-ness of knowing, that direct knowing of the Light...just as you use the word "intuition"?

But I'm open to the chance that someday soon, nearer to me in time than are those timeless moments in that little room, I may go back again to dissolve again that light, I suppose.  Ya think?  I'm just not counting on it anymore.







Modified by tarvuist at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 12:45:37

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knowing without Knowing
Re: Re: ...that curious converse -- Knowing without Knowing it - My Own Example -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Roark ®

03/26/2017, 13:35:38
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Oh Great Tarvuist,

What a beautiful and
provocative experience you have described! 
I don’t have any answers of course, but will put out a few, brief observations. 

This mountaintop experience
of yours occurred in the context of the surroundings driving your
semantics.  The power of what you
experienced evoked the words “God”, Truth” and such, which is only natural
given our Judeo-Christian upbringing and our transference of this mythology onto
the Indiologic spiritual practice / tradition-lite as put forth by our little Indian
emissary. 

Also, NOTHING occurs in
consciousness that does not simultaneously occur as physical events in the
body/mind, and so your neural matrix certainly was altered and implicated as
well.

These satori’s, although apparently
unsustainable, are certainly gorgeous and to be appreciated in my opinion.  The inner big light phenomenon is
breathtaking, whatever the fuck is going on. 


So what are these
experiences, if one strips away the embellishment of interpretation?

Personally, I have become
pretty OK with not having to intellectually understand this interesting world, not
that I don’t think about it and not that theories don’t arise.

But I will say that what
interests me most about these types of experiences are the intrinsic ‘feelings’ involved, and especially how these feelings can inform what I am and how I behave as I move through
the world (hopefully towards a more integrated fashion).

There is a whole other
conversation (probably better over beers) about how my own ‘practice’ has morphed
into my absorption with the ‘feeling world’ within my skinbag, as opposed to a ‘conceptual
world’.  My brain’s preoccupation with
thinking, and it’s capability to come up with cool stuff ‘on its own’ has made
it easier to just ‘feel’.  The brain seems
to do its job reasonably well, great organ to have! 

But at the end of the
day, seems like we all just want to feel good (in a sustainable manner), and at the pinnacle of good feelings
is love.  I’ve not yet found a downside
to benevolent love, with all of its side effects like kindness, compassion, occasional
bliss, empathy and such.  If you could
tunnel back that moment, what did you feel, absent all of the other rigmarole?

Beautiful, mysterious
world we are part of.

M






Modified by Roark at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 13:39:47

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Re: knowing without Knowing
Re: knowing without Knowing -- Roark Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
tarvuist ®

03/26/2017, 14:26:03
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Hiya M!

Thanks for your effluent response  (effluent?fluent?)  ...kinda thought I'd got to where I'm babbling to myself.

...This ... experience of yours occurred in the context of the surroundings driving your semantics.  

Not sure what you mean...  Maybe simply that I used some words above to describe an experience?  Moreover that those words were formulated influenced by the surroundings, as well as all my previous life experience, the time, place, the rap I was given toward an expectation, all making me say of it some words afterwards and think of it in the way I did/do: "God", "Light", "Damn Nice Experience", "Infinite", "Love", "Knowledge", whatever...  And likewise present (mental) circumstances dictate I now describe it as a"neurological phenomenon"?

Also, NOTHING occurs in consciousness that does not simultaneously occur as physical events in the body/mind, and so your neural matrix certainly was altered and implicated as well.

Certainly.  I think that's right.  ...at least as much as we can say electron charges running around neurons in nifty patterns are physical events and the matrices of patterns get kinda fixated or semi-"crystallized" but still quite flexibly shifty, for spans of time until further knocked about into different patterns, or of course until the brain ultimately turns off finally.  [Not convinced myself that it all uploads into the Akashic.  ...for the future quantum computers to read, or the clairvoyants.]

...light phenomenon ... whatever the fuck is going on. 

Just so.

...not having to intellectually understand this interesting world...

Pretty nice enough just to be in it for awhile yet.

...what interests me most about these tyoes of experiences are the intrinsic ‘feelings’ involved, and especially how these feelings can inform what I am and how I behave as I move through the world...

Yeah, I certainly like the feelings too...not trying to sort them out much these days myself, nor to identify from them any meanings about my personality and such, just enjoying them in real time.  And lots of contemplation of memories that seem to randomly come back to me, I mean enjoying just re-viewing them.

There is a whole other conversation (probably better over beers) 

Yes...over beers is most important...

...my absorption with the ‘feeling world’ within my skinbag, as opposed to a ‘conceptual world’.  ....The brain seems to do its job reasonably well, great organ to have! 

So I just make an educated guess that you too intrinsically maybe enjoy rational exercise in the cranium as well as much of all else going on in your skinbag...always making and revising reality maps with a clever human brain like all we critters are totally prone to doing  -- well, prone or upright.  (Any thought on there being something like Plato's underlaying forms?  No, no, let's not go there...stay with the feelings.) 

But at the end of the day, seems like we all just want to feel good in a sustainable manner), and at the pinnacle of good feelings is love...benevolent love, with all of its side effects like kindness, compassion, occasional bliss, empathy and such.  

We shall call it love finally and always then, in our mouth sounds and our various symbols scratched and keyboarded onto pages and screens...shall we...Why not.  Contrary to John, Paul, George and Ringo's lyrics, I suspect, perhaps too foolishly pragmatic, it's not all we need.

If you could tunnel back that moment, what did you feel, absent all of the other rigmarole?

Got no semantics for it...off the charts I'm afraid sir. 

Beautiful, mysterious world we are part of.

I couldn't say more...

Good to hear from you M!






Modified by tarvuist at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 14:47:15

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Re: ...that curious converse -- Knowing without Knowing it - My Own Example
Re: Re: ...that curious converse -- Knowing without Knowing it - My Own Example -- tarvuist Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
SuzyQ ®

03/31/2017, 01:18:49
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What a beautiful description, it took me back to many experiences of knowing without knowing before running into GMJ and then inside the belief system he calls 'not a belief system' and happily since. I rely quite heavily on my intuition and am drawn to all things that i think may heighten or at least sustain it.

In my own experience genetic memory is a verifiable fact. I sometimes attribute my loud intuition to it. 
Like any gift in order to make it a skill you have to delve into it and explore.
It was not the sort of thing i was surrounded by, I didn't know people who had similar experiences to me. at one point I thought I might be nuts.One of the reasons I was drawn to knowledge was because I could see that here I was allowed to have an 'experience'.
Nice trap for sensitive souls. 

I have since experienced so much and would say I have had a big and beautiful life thus far and I'm anticipating even better. Without the shackles of the half cube I feel the possibilities opening up. As usual in many directions however I like to think I am a lot more discerning now.
In spite of being described as psychic by my friends and family there are only 2 days that i can do much about, they are today and tomorrow. 
I have the long range forecast in both directions simultaneously so a few distractions but those are the only 2 days i get much influence over in a hands on way.
 
I have made some reckless decisions based on those 'experiences' at times. Gone with the moment, gone with the wind. But at that time I was only thinking about 'the moment'
and because it was spoken with that emphasis by one who I had way too much regard for 'the moment' became this holy sort of mystery of which i had no control over.

These days it's today and tomorrow. I feel more balanced and less inclined to give money to swindlers. I love critical thinking and exercising that skill because it does balance out the highly intuitive side and gives me a foothold in a level above the duality of that.
Wasn't that what he promised me all along?
he forgot to mention you have to leave first to get it...






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"The greatest gift you can give"
Re: Here's a very long post, I do not mention Rawat once, it's all not about him. -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
cq ®

03/25/2017, 13:44:42
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"To believe in someone, to trust, having faith in them is, I think, the greatest gift you can give"

Hmmm ... not always deserved, nor necessarily for their - or others' - good.






Modified by cq at Sat, Mar 25, 2017, 13:45:46

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Re: "The greatest gift you can give"
Re: "The greatest gift you can give" -- cq Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/25/2017, 23:33:50
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well yes exactly.  It can indeed be misplaced - all of us here did it with Rawat and people can be so different under the skin they wear. 

I know what it's like to push down your anxieties about your circumstance until you're busting at the seams and then wake in a bolt of fright.  And I think that is a very common experience.

I think Tarvuist is right on the money - raw reality is more scary than we are comfortable facing up to.  but we do it anyway, don't we - just bit by bit.  








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Re: "The greatest gift you can give"
Re: Re: "The greatest gift you can give" -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
SuzyQ ®

03/27/2017, 17:20:42
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Thank you Lesley for your beautiful post.I am moved by your sentiments and feel the same. I don't have words at the moment. I am surrounded by people who I hold dear who are enduring heartbreak at the moment. I have fallen silent into deep listening. To that deep magic you speak of.






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Re: "The greatest gift you can give"
Re: Re: "The greatest gift you can give" -- SuzyQ Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/27/2017, 21:48:56
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wishing you all the best, Suzy  xox






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Re: "The greatest gift you can give" NT
Re: "The greatest gift you can give" -- cq Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
Milarepa ®

03/30/2017, 14:06:28
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Beautiful, Lesley
Re: Here's a very long post, I do not mention Rawat once, it's all not about him. -- lesley Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

03/26/2017, 09:52:55
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Dear Lesley,

Stunning... thank you.  Please keep that powerful thought stream going.  The opposite is atrophy.

I'm taken aback because of my thoughts in only the past few days!  They mostly stem from an experience with surgical anesthesia.  From my last recollection to waking up in recovery an hour and a half later was quicker than a blink.  This experience stuck with me, leading me to now think that a trillion years could have past a thousand times more quickly.  Time only exists while we are alive (or the ability to perceive it)... I think.  There is no such thing as forever because forever is a function of time and it cannot exist in a timeless state.  (I'm currently fascinated by the concept of time and how each person may perceive it differently.) 

Those thoughts got me to thinking about infinity.  Like the known universe being a hole in a plane of Swiss cheese, or a molecule in the flesh of a giant, or my childhood revelation of a marble in some kids toy box (which got me an "A" on a 7th grade essay). 

One big bang or a pi's worth of big bangs... or something in between and still going off somewhere?

On the one hand, these thoughts help to explain my fervent, stubborn, childish, ill-informed clinging to a naïve, subservient, simple, utopian fantasy that Rawat calls "Knowledge." 

On the other hand, they beg for the universal (or infinite?) common denominator that you so clearly identify between your lines:

Love







Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Mar 26, 2017, 10:58:50

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Re: Beautiful, Lesley
Re: Beautiful, Lesley -- lakeshore Top of thread Post Reply Forum
Posted by:
lesley ®

03/26/2017, 21:27:45
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aw, thanks Lakeshore.  

There was this line on the tv - a philandering man is saying to his latest but one woman - oh did you believe it was forever, nothing is forever. 

That's what sparked my post!  why does she feel it is forever when she knows she is mortal?

Hope you are well now and fully recovered.






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