|
|
|
Has anybody else noticed the page reads? If you compare it to the non Rawat forum it is a big difference - premies must still be reading this page.
Just when I was thinking well okay so cult daze is over, anybody still in one wants to remain in it and maybe we can just chat amongst ourselves here on this page I check the page reads and ponder the position further.
maybe it isn't premies tho, maybe it's all ex premies. could be, it really could. There's more of us that left than still in I reckon.
so many voices that fell silent along the way. Pat Conlon was the first ex premie that I missed when he stopped posting. I still miss Jools and hope she is okay.
Anyway, apart from the people I have met here, what do I value the most from this forum? well apart from the help with exiting that cult we were in that is.
the other thing I value enduringly is the free speech I have had here. JHB, you have been a wonderful host. And years and years ago when my confidence was at it's lowest ebb, I remember 13 saying to another poster listen to lesley I reckon what she's saying is good.
so yes really I have taken advantage of the chance to say my piece. I am grateful, it is a bit off mainstream but it is not off the planet. And it is better out than in!
Lakeshore, you have been a legendary poster, holding out a warm hand of welcome to so many. And the support of all of us - it's a good thing to have been a part of.
It's so much quieter here now. Maybe because we are all getting older.
all the best everyone, hoping all is well with you, xox Lesley
|
|
|
|
|
Dear Lesley, Hearing from a legendary poster like Lp and getting such a kind and wonderful compliment from a legendary poster like you in the same week is an emotional overload. Except for Flying Solo (which is a crock because we're always squabbling over the flight controls!), I can't think of one single thing that's helped me as much as this forum. And I hardly think that you were ever even close to being a challenge for the forum administrator! I haven't been posting as much, but I often reflect on the forum, the highs and lows and immensely valuable lessons learned. Just the other day, I thought that I'm wired to be emotional, whereas the forum (wisely) values rational, logical reason -- essential attributes that can protect people from cults, magical thinking, imaginary realities and all that. I concluded that I can't help how I am and that I deeply appreciate the freedom this forum gives every poster to be themselves with so much acceptance, so little judgment and so much appreciation. I don't know what to make of things in premiedom these days. One thing that's clear is the immense power of the human brain to rationalize some sort of face saving way to reconcile the gap between what was preached and promised and the reality of what everything corruptly dwindled into. Yes, Connie and I escaped from the cult thanks to everyone here... and Mike Finch who just posted!  And it doesn't mean we landed on a bed of roses... just the gritty, tangible feeling of living far more real and genuine lives back in the same boat with everyone else. Perhaps the biggest relief is not feeling special, better, chosen, superior or separate -- truly in good company as opposed to the "company of truth."
Modified by lakeshore at Wed, Feb 22, 2017, 19:15:18
|
|
|
|
Yes it is a bit weird to see the reader-count on some threads. I may not post here as often as when I ex'd several years ago, but I still read frequently. I am always encouraged by the honesty and support.
Whoever the other 90% are we may never know, but I like the fact that anonymous folks are popping in, lurker or curious...the word is getting out.
I saw Leah Remini interviewed the other night on the Bill Maher show here in the US. It was great to see someone stand up to cultism and help others still influenced by those dark forces. I think it is important to remember that our voices do make a difference.
In my own world I remain in contact with a few old pseudo premies. I say pseudo because Rawat has diluted and watered down the Religion of Knowledge to such a degree, that anyone wanting to belong has only to utter a few approved terms and slogans and voila they are accepted.
It is nothing more than a spiritual club. Just go onto Meetup.com and type in "enlightenment" and there are hundreds of groups gathering weekly to provide pathways, guidance and delusional dogma.
Maybe it's just a phenomenon of each generation, a certain percentage become seekers and in turn fall prey to cults. Life is not fair in that regard, sometimes the best and brightest succumb. But I choose to stand strong and resolute in these years.
There is so much more to learn and discover. Thanks to all who post here.
Mark B
|
|
|
|
I watched Leah's 8 part series and never once heard her refer to it as as a cult. She always called it the religion.
|
|
|
|
That's how I see them now too but must add that religions seem to have legs since they continue to propagate from within. For instance, I grew up in a Catholic family and there was never a doubt I would continue to go to Catholic schools to continue my brainwashing.
|
|
|
|
oh an emotional overload sounds like fun 
I don't think I've ever been a challenge for the administrator just a bit of a mouthful for everyone. I remember telling an exasperated Jim that when I opened my mouth to speak there was too much to come out and it was like a log jam occurred and it would just take a while for me to become cogent. and then my posts became more and more pared down, almost indecipherable. I think it was lp who said they were like haikus. and then I was struck by the brilliant idea of writing what I wanted to say as if I were saying it and have practised that ever since.
But, difficulties like that aside, it's such a big deal we go past normal barriers in conversation.
And yes there was that emphasis on reason and logic - I think you are wanting at that time to shine the light of reason onto the feelings and experiences you had. And then maybe things are better and we feel comfortable with our emotional logic again.
I saw a thing about a rhino. A man went back to South Africa 50 years on and lay on the ground in tears petting this little rhino, it was a huge emotional moment for him, and it was his way of saying the truth of what happened in his family when he was a child and they looked after an orphan rhino who became so bonded with their mother and with the family in general that he died when released into the wild. they were so sad to leave him there, the mother was in particular. And it was awful for them when he died.
must go to bridge so I'm going to post and hope no mistakes...
|
|
|
|
oh an emotional overload sounds like fun A big part of that moment, in line with other sentiments mentioned in this thread, was being reminded of my first months in ex-ing. Lp had just made a post that affected me more than just about any other. I kept it but can no longer find it. Something about a fungus silently killing the roots of all the trees in the forest (you had to be there... ). Anyway, I was suit who commuted to Grand Central/Times Square at the time. You know, the commuter coat uniform and all that. So there I was that day, a 34 year premie with my "reality" collapsing like a house of cards scrunched into a Metro North train seat with a New York Times spread over my face. Tears falling over my red face as I read that post line by line over and over again. I so deeply respect the courage and condition of those beautiful people who endured the anguish and confusion of having everything they based their lives turn out to be false as it collapses like a house of cards, leaving them to reboot themselves without an operating system and having to scrape to rebuild themselves from their core.
|
|
|
|
oh an emotional overload sounds like fun A big part of that moment, in line with other sentiments mentioned in this thread, was being reminded of my first months in ex-ing. Lp had just made a post that affected me more than just about any other. Something about a fungus silently killing the roots of all the trees in the forest (you had to be there... ). Anyway, I was a suit who commuted to Grand Central/Times Square at the time. You know, the commuter coat uniform and all that. So there I was that day, a premie for thirty-four years with my "reality" collapsing like a house of cards, scrunched into a Metro North train seat with a New York Times covering my face. Tears falling as I secretly read that post line by line over and over again. I so deeply respect the courage and condition of those beautiful people who endured the anguish and confusion of having everything they based their lives turn out to be false, leaving them to reboot themselves without an operating system and having to scrape to rebuild themselves. Fear of going through that is why lifers are lifers... so unknowingly confused they rationalize everything along with all the irreconcilable contradictions as... love.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 26, 2017, 06:59:21
|
|
|
|
I don't remember the whole post but I remember that line about a fungus silently killing the roots of all the trees in the forest. It's a truth spoke plain. Sometimes only a poetic turn of phrase will do.
LP's posts sparked something off in me too and I think when you take on board that he was the first western mahatma, the speaker to the earliest western premies it says something about what attracted us to the cult in the first place - he talked about the walk we were making. He was like the missing link between the desolate barren lands of Premiespeak Inc. and our previous hippy selves.
Let's face it - Rawat has no class. He can't draw he can't paint, his poetry is so bad it should come with a government health warning. Do not read, you may despair of the whole human race. He is a damn fungus!
Yeah I feel the same respect for the courage. I still need to muster up a bit to make a derogatory post about Rawat - not because I think he can turn me into a mushroom but because of all those attacks on vocal ex-premies. All kudos to Marianne for taking him on in the courts.
we do need free speech, it's like oxygen the way we feel the need of it. I know Rawat and many others think it is better to control the airwaves but I think they're kidding themselves. We all want to live in the daylight.
To be fooled into believing Rawat is the address to go to for our deepest most treasured aspiration for love is obviously going to have some pretty awful consequences.
Not that it's a new story in the history of mankind, but I reckon it's still a case of better late than never for the premies - they are going to want a gulp of that oxygen.
To be able to say what happened to them - what luxury.
Modified by lesley at Mon, Feb 27, 2017, 15:55:38
|
|
|
|
Well put, thank you.Luxury indeed. I had no idea LP was one of the first western mahatmas. I will go back and read some of those posts
|
|
|
|
yes, I came along in 1973 - those early days were already buried, I never heard talk of Saphlanand back then, but the beliefs of the early days, they still underpinned the 1973 premie beliefs.
So reading lp's posts brought it back to me, how we had believed in premies and satsang being the company of truth and people talking freely. That's what it was like in the early days.
I had a shot. But I remember really not wanting to give satsang because I didn't have anything to say and I think that was a common feeling, how could it not be since getting poked in the eye doesn't produce enlightenment, I guess it was easy for the constraints to gather force until my goodness, only selected people were able to say pre-scripted snippets at satsang and other than that it was the damn videos, sigh, all those hours watching those stupid things and then I felt guilty when I skived off for a swim.
|
|
|
|
yes we are all getting older - and were all so busy with about 100 things that we are all into - trying to fit everything in and to maintain a balance.
Leslie you have helped me a lot in questioning my past with m - and also helped me to get from 30% to 80% - to now 90% of not believing in the cult and participating in peoples lives and causes that are dear to me.
Yes, there may be quietness. but i still visit this website much and read mostly everything. Its because of this website and what has been said by you and others that has led me to be free.
|
|
|
|
thanks,
Even tho I'm 100% convinced Rawat is a fraud, and that all the religions I have ever heard of have also been created by frauds, I still like the sound of 90% - maybe it's good to have a leavening of self doubt, I think it is, it feels necessary to me.
Rawat certainly used it against us tho.
|
|
|
|
Fulfillment
I've said it before but it bears repeating...you ALL here at EPO have done more to "fix" me than any other entity in my whole fucked up life. You give me everything I need...laughter, tears, heart...raw truth and freedom to make mistakes. My cup runneth over with gratitude for every post there is...this thread is awesome!
DCcultmember...I think Leah Remini is on track for correction, I saw her do a talk show, I think Connan...not sure...but she said she was trying to stop calling it a religion and wanted to refer to it as an organization. So I think she's been doing that more and more, hopefully soon she'll be able to wrap her mind around all the evidence of the cult that it is and refer to it as such. "Organization" is certainly a bit too neutral, right? If she can find anything close to what there is here...what you all give me...she'll change the world.
Thank you just doesn't seem big enough, Love, G
|
|
|
|
"I've said it before but it bears repeating...you ALL here at EPO have done more to "fix" me than any other entity in my whole fucked up life." Me too, Genny. Lasting and indelible. Forever thankful. These are the ex-premies who not only escaped the burning building, but turned around and tossed a rope to you and me and everyone else. As I said in my very first post: "shining stars in my new bright sky."
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Feb 26, 2017, 06:28:07
|
|
|
|
yes, me too Genny. As I realised I'd been caught up in a cult I started to view it like a sieve - it had picked up a lot of people like me. But it was only in exiting that I met up with the ones that were really a lot like me.
Up the end of a rainforest valley, sunk deep into the confusion of being in a cult and even more confusion from being unwittingly married all my adult life to a closeted gay man, with no children to keep my head above water, I had begun to feel like I was living in a dungeon.
I was in my early 40s and waking up at 3am, instead of trying to sleep more I'd get up and go to my computer and write and finally started to get my thoughts together again, my own little world I loved it and got to the point I was disappointed if I slept in and didn't get that few hours of peaceful quiet.
I had friends and family I emailed with but it was when I found this forum that a window opened in my dungeon wall, high up and dusty but real daylight now entered the little nest I'd made on the floor. and it reconnected me to my past.
|
|
|
|
My two favorite "l's"lakeshore and lesley...I love this site as a whole, but I cannot let it go unsaid that you two...well, I hope it's ok that I love you. I keep wondering how a person can have such real emotion for people known only by words on a screen...but it's absolutely possible, and I keep getting that word...love...when I think of what I want to say to you two...
I truly adore so many others too, and I'll be looking for opportunities to let them know. But for now, it's all about my two favorite l's...I could never thank you enough and you should know how much you mean to total strangers!
Love, G
|
|
|
|
thanks Genny, I totally get it, happened to me too - it's only words on a page but the people on this forum know me better than most.
and over the years I have come to trust the people here - it's comforting.
xox
|
|
|
|
"I keep wondering how a person can have such real emotion for people known only by words on a screen...but it's absolutely possible, and I keep getting that word...love..." It's definitely true for me, Genny. The change in my life's trajectory is just as significant as a result of getting out of that cult as it was getting into it in the first place, and I have everyone here to thank for that indescribably fortunate event. It makes the posters here most dear to me as they have helped me more than anyone else. And then there's what Lesley said: "...it's only words on a page but the people on this forum know me better than most... and over the years I have come to trust the people here - it's comforting." That, too! Thank you for coming here and staying. Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Mar 02, 2017, 08:05:08
|
|
|
|
yeah, it's the staying bit. Thank you too, Bob. I wish 13 would come back he's been a consistent poster all the time I've been here but I think he got really fed up with that last interchange with Jim and might of just stopped altogether. 
I have been watching this tv program, it is real trash tv, they get a bunch of sort of celebrities and put them in the 'jungle' - well what they do is make them undergo trials to get food. Fascinating really, it's pretty simple, they do it - you want me to eat earth worms dripping in a ground up cockroach paste, well I will do it. You want me to stick my hand in a pit of snakes, I will do it. People our age bungy jumping over canyons - all for food.
Other interests like how is their celebrity or personal status going pales in comparison, you can see it in their eyes, their interest peaks over the topic of food. 
|
|
|
|
Sounds like a celebrity version of a cross between Fear Factor and Naked & Afraid (neither of which I watch except for the schadenfreude of stumbling upon an episode while channel surfing.) I'll refrain from favorably comparing eating worms to some of the things I stooped to in the cult. (That's a back handed invitation to Karen to go for it! ) So that may explain 13's absence. Although I missed that exchange, that would do it. Hope he comes back because everyone here benefits tremendously!
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 06:42:45
|
|
|
|
ah, I haven't watched any of those shows, before this it was cooking shows for me. There's this one young woman she is stunningly beautiful and I can still picture her with a handful of the worms, dripping black sauce, and funnelling them into her mouth. she is very impressive, her attitude is like bring it on - to her they're Food. (the trick is to keep them underfed)
I have to admit a few days ago I woke up still on the edge of a dream and in my mind there was an image of 13 on a hospital bed. I guess this is me coming to grips with his continued absence from the forum. I think really he might just have decided to take a break and not even be reading and fair enough - John put in every effort and Jim left him with nowhere to go but away. and none of us said anything, well you don't you just keep hoping something good will come from Jim.
|
|
|
|
hoping for 13 to resurface too. He has a lot to offer. He seemed ok and posted some nice stories on his 60th birthday. Jihad Jimmy disappeared anyway... I"m guessing the cops took his computer due to contact with the Quebec Mosque shooter. It's a small tight knit group of those haters here in Canada.
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your concern, and sorry to cause it. How do you leave a forum otherwise? Announcements of such intentions result in discussions...
Anyway, I'm not entirely gone. Nine months of hard, physical, mostly solitary work plus anaemia was tiring and required all I had, but the anaemia is now fixed and the work is about finished and I have a good adventure planned and several backups in case the first doesn't work out.
I was getting tired of my own voice. I liked the silence. I'll probably go back to it, looking in here from time to time. I regard many of you here as friends (which you should remember if you're passing by Devon), and I have benefited greatly from our years of interactions, so I'll write again when I have something to say. Hopefully, in a post from Latvia.
|
|
|
|
In my reply to Leslie, I almost said you were probably off on another globe trotting adventure. Glad I wasn't too far off the mark. Have a mini-Latvian with JHB and his family if you cross paths. I've been absent from the forum as well. Mostly a big project at work and general busy-ness. Weeks on end stretching into months without a thought about the cult or the forum except for missing the posters here. I missed your exchange with Jim. Probably best to leave it at that. Glad you hear your bout with anaemia is behind you and please know that others here will never tire of your voice! Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 11:07:40
|
|
|
|
Hi 13, thanks for writing. My mouth dropped open at the thought that you were tired of your own voice - it's so entertaining!
but yes I do understand the feeling. Just it's always so welcome to hear.
Glad the anaemia is sorted out. I suppose that means eating lots of red meat.
I wish we were all meeting up for a Latvian.
wishing you all the best. xox
Modified by lesley at Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 12:12:37
|
|
|
|
13,I am intrigued by your post. Nice to hear from you! John.
|
|
|
|
yes isn't it intriguing, of course we want to know more.
|
|
|
|
There's a man from Finland who wants to buy my boat. He hasn't seen it yet, but he's pretty keen. He hasn't sailed much, so I've already agreed to deliver it there. If the sale goes through, I'll be in touch to see if we can meet en route, or on my return trip (I might cycle back )
Modified by 13 at Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 15:57:26
|
|
|
|
As you probably know I'm just a stone's throw from Finland. Cycling from Helsinki to my house is a piece of cake °I look forward to seeing you.
|
|
|
|
Hi Lesley, I think it is highly likely that a good proportion of the reads are ex-premies checking whether Rawat is dead! I know of several exes who read here occasionally, some of whom have never posted. But there are also many former posters who still read here. I know because I met one recently after announcing the death of another! This place has played such an important role for so many of us and I will be eternally grateful to everybody who has contributed. Strong connections and friendships have been forged here. It is getting quieter, I for one have less to say these days. Love to all Karen
|
|
|
|
Hi Kelly, ha ha, yes, I guess so - tho I couldn't care less if I know whether he is dead or alive. The ex-premies yes and some of the premies, but not Rawat.
It is getting quieter. I expect it is the age we are and I guess it is okay, I know I like my quieter more mature-thinking self, but still, I am hoping we don't stop talking - there is something about this place, could not agree more.
It's a linear conversation we have here - it's not a rinse and repeat. There's something about a deconstructed god on the table I guess.
xox
Modified by lesley at Sat, Feb 25, 2017, 19:03:38
|
|
|
|
The quiet before the storm? I have seen the forum go through small lull's and then also times where there are many intriguing posts each day. We obviously are all getting on with our lives and there aren't many moments when Prem's momentous ego, false pride and manipulations come to mind. When they do I for one am extremely grateful I have you guys to turn to and say (!!!! remember that crazy shit ???) There are plenty of ex premies looking on here that have never posted I imagine. Maybe fear? not loathing or they would post. Maybe they just don't want to dismiss an entire chapter of their lives as being caught up in a web of deceit? Also I imagine there are common garden variety premies, cronies and honchos that read here, welcome. Go to prem rawat bio too.Then every now and then we get a new poster !! yay! a new story and a new unravelling of truth to replace the fiction. We are SO lucky to have this forum and each other. I remember when I first became a premie, one premie told me he had problems in the beginning accepting the guru thinking prem was fat because he must be greedy and lazy, but then he realised poor prem was given so many sweets and food items from his premies that he had to eat them all. The ability of the mind to bend the observations and facts to fit into the beliefs is nothing short of.. well... intelligent- to the point of idiocy. I read the darshan extravaganza on prem rawat bio the other day ( thanks for that link by the way) and it was mentioned that the donated food and treats ended up being given back to the premies as prasad. Turns out the guru is just fat. Also greedy and lazy in good measure.
|
|
|
|
"The ability of the mind to bend the observations and facts to fit into the beliefs is nothing short of.. well... intelligent- to the point of idiocy." Yeah, materialistic greed and gluttony satisfied by exploiting beautiful, innocent people becomes, "last time he came as a carpenter, this time a king -- don't have concepts!" Stunning, huh? The power of the brain to rationalize... purely out of fear of the truth. The idiocy is when fear gets rationalized away by talking oneself into thinking it's love.
|
|
|
|
Yep, this time a king with a garish krishna crown, or is it a suit and tie? it took a while for the spoilt brat to catch up with kings attire these days. In spite of the references to Christ he has never borne any resemblance , compassion? healing? humility? He should have opted for his birthday suit and the parable of the emperors new clothes. I remember when he ditched the ashrams and the satsang meetings where we all stood up and expressed ourselves. He said 'i've done things your way until now, now i'm doing it my way' So apparently it was our idea that he wear krishna crowns. It was our idea that our enthusiastic cult mutterings would attract the entire world to serve him. And when none of that was working and we were seen as just a bunch of weirdos, he asked for more resources so he could put together satellite broadcasts first, later the keys , so in the end it turned out that he was the only one qualified to give satsang, because obviously our efforts were turning more people away than attracting.... so it goes....the way I see it it was Divine Will Prem. Lila for Lucifer. His ridiculous efforts to keep everything under wraps, to change and change his skin again like the slippery snake he is, the daily grind of making sure the veil isn't lifted must be SUCH hard work, really there are better ways to make a fortune but he NEEDS that narcissistic supply, the adoration and the ability to manipulate in order to feel that he even exists. No wonder he is afraid of the dark, I bet he is haunted and hunted by day and by night, eternally vigilant trying to keep ahead of the game. One day, you know and I know, the game will be up, it's only a matter of time. If there is a hell he will be an usher for the darshan line to the cloven hoof.
|
|
|
|
Hi SuzyQ,
As I read your post today, I was taken aback by how clear and concise every sentence is. An entire comedic thread could be written about everything that is our fault -- premies' fault -- versus everything Rawat takes credit for. Everything ostensibly "good" falls in Rawat's column and everything that is/was an utter failure falls into our column. In fact, we were so bleeping stupid that we came for the wrong reasons!
Reminds me of Jethro's story about Rawat telling new premies not to listen to old premies. Rawat left out the reason why: he screwed them up too badly to salvage. (He couldn't convert the old timers who worshiped him openly into contemporary role models with a loose grip on morality who preferred that their worship remain a secret... hidden by such lies as "peace delegates" to a foot kissing "convention." )
Great post! Crystal clear. Sorry it took so long to reply.
Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 15:59:56
|
|
|
|
Thanks Bob,Yes an entire comedic thread would be long........ we should start one. Not only were we to blame for any failings of his plans and ideas on an overall, ever changing basis; at events if we were 'lucky' enough to be doing service the TENSION of doing everything to perfection surrounding everyone and the real risk of his disapproval was huge. It was confusing a lot of the time as the 'direction' would often change mid-stream or be somehow unclear from the beginning. there was the sensation that everything could turn on a dime and there would be hell to pay for someone, evidenced by the changing of the guard of various honchos each time. All of a sudden it required some sort of corporate standpoint, no doubt brought about by the 'trainings' which seemed to confuse them even more than before when it was just dippy hippies doing it for love. We would wait and wait and wait for the go ahead for this plan or that plan and therefore have to have plan A, B and potentially C ready to go ahead because the time frame was narrowing. No one would dare ask though,probably he had the do not disturb sign on his door, having an important meeting with Monika maybe. So at the last minute we would hear he didn't like any of those plans and so we must tweak this or that and compromise somehow and oh dear, he is displeased. What a jerk, as if it mattered at all, the details and micro details, the hours and hours wasted trying to please the one person on the planet who can never sustain being pleased by anything for longer than 10 minutes. He brought us up ( you are my father! Blergh) to be co - dependant, had us hanging off every ambiguous word, having anxiety while over thinking the meaning of what he just said, when really he is eternally just spouting off hypnotic nonsense. Any wisdom that came through was borrowed. Any truths that were uttered were half truths, halved by his own personal manipulative agenda. We were naive, and maybe thats all we can really be blamed for. Still, even he cant stop the relentless progress of human inner development, eventually those who are willing to wake up at all costs- will. It is quite a turn up for the books when you get to understand that the person who claims to have your best interests at heart in that regard is a swindler and a minor demon double agent working against human self development, trying to keep every one stuck in that whirl pool that just goes round and round without any developments apart from where the money gets syphoned off to feed his extravagant lifestyle. From reading the prem rawat bio site I came to see he had his chance to admit to himself and to the premies many years ago that this belief system ( clothed as not a belief system) was largely flawed and would not amount to anything good but he just couldn't do it, ditched the psychologist, Michael died in an air crash and he sailed on regardless, this time making sure no one gets close enough to ever criticise him or his big fat knowledge again. His downfall is looming.
|
|
|
|
http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi/forum?cmd=get&cG=8353936353&zu=3835393332&v=2&gV=0&p= I posted a link to your previous post in this thread because together with this post (or individually) it doesn't get any better or clearer. There's no rationale for Knowledge other than the fact that it disables rational thinking for the purpose of mind control and exploitation. I posted a lot about those trainings that were by secret word of mouth invitation only. Ostensibly, the goal was to take "participation" to a much higher level than dippy hippies doing it for love. In reality, it was to reinforce Rawat's grip and control at a time when he must have felt paranoid about losing it... an extreme effort to reinstate brow beat the essential element of total submission to his greed and dominance into the minds of already weakened and compromised individuals: the closest thing I've ever seen to brainwashing. In hindsight, one aspect of the trainings that caused much harm to me was -- under the threat of being banned from serving my Lord (Rule no. one was simply "Maharaji" ) -- Valario practically shouted: "Don't you want to be impeccable!!" Carrying that standard into the real world of work, co-workers and everything else didn't work so well. I'm still affected by trying to let go of the impossible standards you posted about that were drilled into us for absolutely no good, justifiable, ethical or moral reason. Thank you for caring and taking the time. Bob
Modified by lakeshore at Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 07:44:55
|
|
|
|
yes, nice posts Suzy - I thought the notion of Rawat as an usher on Satan's darshan line very funny.
Bob - the impeccable perfectness of it all was a real crusher, wasn't it. and funnily enough it all turns out to be completely different - art, bridge, life, even love turns out to be made out of mistakes and the efforts we make to fix them.
|
|
|
|
Modified by SuzyQ at Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 22:12:31
|
|
|
|
haha thank you Lesley, I'm glad that made you laugh, from now on this is how I will remember him. In his rightful place.Thanks also for the poignant observations about life and love. It turns out everything is opposite to how he presented it. The upside is we get to rediscover ourselves and the world in an entirely new context.
|
|
|
|
"It turns out everything is opposite to how he presented it. The upside is we get to rediscover ourselves and the world in an entirely new context." That, along with Rawat's joke-ish notions of "clarity" (he milked it for all he could get our of it!) and "impeccable", got me back to reflecting again. (The beautiful thing about hindsight as it relates to leaving that cult is the "clarity" that returns the further away you get from it!) It occurred to me that one extremely harmful aspect of falling into the cult at age nineteen for me was never developing a solid sense of self, identity or grounding. I was already struggling with it when I received Knowledge. Suddenly, the answer! This is who I am! And to solidify it I needed to destroy any sense of self I had previously developed. So there I go, off into the real world after the ashrams closed with this totally fabricated sense of premie self and the false confidence of "knowing" that goes with it... really nothing there but thinking everything was there. Fast forward to today when I work among small town folks who never heard of the cult and find myself having to build new relationships based on how far I've gotten in, as you put it "rediscovering myself and the world in an entirely new context" in the years since I left. Dang! Still at a disadvantage! These people are grounded as dirt and I still feel like air around them. It makes me feel like one can heal but perhaps never fully recover, not with a thirty-four year diversion from real, genuine and unfettered self discovery/grounding in the middle of one's life. Not to worry, I'm generally happy most of the time and doing well. But darn, what a thing we had to deal with so late in life, for me anyway at 62. It's stunning how much the opposite of what Rawat drilled into us is true... for the purpose of reducing us to utter dependence on him.
Modified by lakeshore at Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 11:53:01
|
|
|
|
um yes, I do feel thoroughly grounded these days. God wouldn't it have been nice never to have been knocked off my feet by that stupid guru tho. I'm sure I'd be much better at handling myself now, it is catch up for sure. I think all the adventuring has stood 13 in good stead, tho - he seems better at it than either of us to me. grounded as dirt, delightful phrase as it is, has a connotation to it for me - not just that of never having lost your footing, but also of being in the 'sweet spot' of humanity. By sweet spot I don't mean sweet like honey I mean like the centre of a tennis racquet.
I really don't mean sweet like honey. But, on the fringes of humanity some of us are sweet natured, we can't help it it's our nature.
Like that worm eating beauty, just when I was thinking she was in the running to be crowned queen of the jungle she is voted off the show. An early exit, preceded by the equally nice handsome young man. well at least she will get a good feed, she was starting to look very hungry.
I tell you it's celebrity fat camp. I swear a couple of them have joined up just to lose the weight.
|
|
|
|
Dang! Still at a disadvantage! These people are grounded as dirt and I still feel like air around them. It makes me feel like one can heal but perhaps never fully recover, not with a thirty-four year diversion from real, genuine and unfettered self discovery/grounding in the middle of one's life.I also tend to be more airy than earthed a lot of the time, but i believe that was a part of my nature before I fell into a cult. I also believe that as much as I have needed grounded people in my life they have needed my airy nature as well to balance the heavy plod of earth elements. The disadvantage stems from the habit of self doubt that PR fostered in me and the premise that we are somehow flawed, instead of believing that the gift of one's presence has some value in the world, just as and who we are right now, and in all nows on a continuum. I believe in full recoveries, even overnight spontaneous healing, I believe miracles can and do happen and I therefore feel full recovery from rawatism is absolutely possible. For me it's about seeing my future as bigger than my past, not in terms of linear time but in terms of what it's possible to feel and discover and experience now. There is no doubt we were heavily influenced for way longer than we wanted to be by the big fat lie that the cult sold us. Now that we're out the daily unfolding of becoming who we fully are, in new contexts, through new challenges, with new materials and information, we get to chose now and mold ourselves accordingly. We are still growing and I hope we always feel that, because it is a whole lot more alive than marking time in the same spot, reinforcing beliefs that don't stand up to the scrutiny of critical thinking, or are built on a false foundation that has salient pieces of information missing. Leaving a cult is a momentous thing to have achieved. It is an uncommon mental, emotional and spiritual shift that epitomises 'healing'. We are already fully recovered, now we are just experiencing all the many gifts that healing is offering us, new contexts , new observations about ourselves, we get to revise every belief of ourselves and the world, a fresh start, many fresh starts and maybe thats why it seems we will never fully recover, But I believe we are fully recovered , we are now experiencing what that new life has to offer, many growth opportunities, many new depths discovered, we are 'living' for a change, not a hologram of ourselves any longer. Embrace your differences and the fact that you are strong enough to have come through this, many never will, even though they see themselves, just as i had in the past as fully healed, fully recovered from L I F E by merging my energy with an illusion of peace. I think we are always evolving through every step and so I see the illusory depths of cult involvement as a phase, a pre cursor to waking up. For whatever reason. Sometimes it doesn't serve me to ask 'why?' so much as 'how?'. We have already reached the destination, now we have time to explore what that means to us each day. I'm sure there will be more discoveries and more aha moments but that doesn't mean I'm not fully recovered, it means I'm alive and not stagnating in a warped version of an outdated and self centred cult- giving myself over to a fake love and a false peace and all his false promises
|
|
|
|
So there I go, off into the real world after the ashrams closed with this totally fabricated sense of premie self and the false confidence of "knowing" that goes with it... really nothing there but thinking everything was there.
I entered the ashram at age 20. Still in many ways I was a teenager. At 20 is anyone really able to make a lifetime commitment? Spent the better part of 10 VERY IMPORTANT FORMATIVE years as gopi/slave/indoctrinated fool only to be kicked out at 30 years of age with about what I entered with; a bedroll and a suitcase of clothes. Oh, I had a bicycle for transportation. Felt like a virgin in a strange world. 10 years no TV, no Rock n Roll, no relationships, no restaurants bars social events, no family structure. I was emotionally very naive.
I was working at a bakery when I moved out. I found a roommate situation from a bulletin board at the co-op. It was a couple. The man had actually received K years ago and realized it was a scam. I was lucky to have landed there. They mostly left me alone, but were sympathetic if I wanted to talk.
I was still an active brainwashed premie.
My boss introduced me to a man she thought I might like. We started dating. He got K. We moved in together and got engaged. I made the mistake to going to see Prem instead of celebrating his birthday, and the relationship soured after that. I just was VERY immature about how to navigate any kind of relationship.
That was 1984. I didn't start my deprogramming until I joined the Forum here in 2003. I got married/divorced and a Culinary degree in the in-between years. The cult did have an effect on that relationship. He was a manipulator and I was still very malleable.
Not sure why I am sharing this at 4 AM today. I got up at 2:30 to be at work by 5 AM but felt too sick to work (chest cold). Texted my boss and now she is mad, so I have to spend $150 at the walk in clinic for a Dr's note. GRRRR.
Anyway, back to stunted growth....... I am not sure, STILL, that at (almost) 65 that I will EVER have what our culture would call a "normal" relationship. I have mostly given up. I can't seem to give my heart without getting used. I mostly look at it as "the way of the world," but, how much is STILL from the damage that all those years in the cult? How many years did I strive to KILL THE EGO? To BE Bhilni?
I can't believe this has me in tears. It has been years since I felt any emotion about that RAT BASTARD! FUCK HIM and all the damage he has done to so many people! Remember est? "There are no victims, only volunteers." How do I tell that to my 20 year old self? And that for this lifetime none of what I lost will be recovered.
Karen
Bhilni's Poem
I live in a hut at the edge of a clearing
In summer the brook almost runs out
The autumn leaves are dry as I sweep the walk
Waiting for You
I didn't notice the years, but one day
The still waters showed gray hairs and a withered body
I live in the corner of this hut
The rest, O Lord, is Yours
The plums are ripening just now
And the blackberries
Again I will test them for sweetness
And set the table for You
Is it this morning?
Maybe this noon
When the sun is mellowing
Or as the stars poke out of that blue You make at the edge of night
Will I hear Your step?
I light a small fire, make your tea, sing Arti
Comb out my braid and offer You my meditation
One day You will come
Hot and dusty, or bitten by the wind
You will find me ready to receive You
Bhilni says, Oh foolish world
I would trade this life for no other
My heart burns a hole through the sun
|
|
|
|
Nice share Karen. I was particularly irritated with the present, having to spend $150 for a doctors note. Sickening, to punish the sick.
|
|
|
|
Karen your post really moved me deeply. So heart felt, thank youIt has been heinous behaviour on his part. He trashed us all without even a thought.
Regrets are a hard thing to let go of sometimes, but I believe we need to embrace the possibilities of having none. It was on the question of relationships and the deepest searching within me to the point of prayer (not to him) to understand what it was in me that betrayed me so many times into relationships with prime manipulators.
Just this week a suicide threat by email from the thieving ex from 5 years ago. Then an email from his address supposedly from his sister saying he'd died. I felt nothing, intuitively I knew it was yet another lie. I didn't reply to either email. Sure enough today he sent an email and admitted he is playing games. He is blocked from every medium but sends to my work email. Soon I will be leaving here so I am looking forward to that part.
Having been with him made me take a long hard look at what the hell program I had in me that was running in the background bringing me such narcissistic arseholes. Very painful lessons that I felt I hadn't learned from, not enough to not repeat the same mistake. I have steered clear of relationship since then. After the soul searching and really beseeching God to let me know what I need to know to prevent this from ever happening again, that was when I got my first drip and steadily from then on it has become a flood of awareness, the truth for a change. This forum has been my lifeline for unravelling the crazy shit and how the cult thinking influenced me. For some reason it is an important part fro me to write things down, but the effect of hearing and feeling the other writings here has profoundly changed me forever Bhilni was one of my favourites too. Very romantic. RAT BASTARD really drew energy from the premies, our hearts and minds and souls. (This brings to mind an image of Count Dracula from sesame street, randomly,) Currently my beautiful mind has fun minimising him at every juncture. Let out to play at last.
I guess my inner warrior comes out and makes me stand my ground and refuse to give him the kudos Because I want control of my life again. I want control of my thinking processes. And I swear to God the warrior in me is damn well going to get it. I claim it all back. I am leaving behind that field of regrets and making a stand. I might be weaker and older but I am a whole lot wiser and bolder now so I will take my revenge by enjoying the process and the possibilities that were never there before. Even the bad days are better than any bad day I had in the cult. I don't get into cognitive dissonance avoidance overload anymore. Pretty sure that was not good for me or my brain. I can still physically feel what that felt like in my head when I think about it.
But I did have such a spiritual focus for 30 years it has been hard to know what to do there. I have taken to praying in the morning and evening for about 10 minutes. For about 5 months now. This has helped me personally not feel lost. It has helped the part of me that trusts in God. It was suggested to me by a priest when I felt I needed protection. Build a foundation of prayer he said. I haven't seen him or been to a church since but I have kept it up because it helps me. It differs from rawatism because instead of praying to see PR, to be able to worship him, to understand him, I pray for understanding myself, and I pray for others, for our protection and for our love and strengths to come to the fore and for our weaknesses not to assail us. I pray for mercy and forgiveness. I haven't forgiven Rawat. I have reduced him to an usher in the darshan line to the cloven hoof in my mind and also just now to a purple puppet Count Dracula from sesame street. I am reframing the context and enjoying that process because there is movement. I am not stagnating in his orbit. I figure if he can program me, so can I, only better. I have my principles to fall back on at least which is so much more than no foundation in his world. One foundation should be called no foundation Bhilni call me foolish but I have traded that life for another life and now I feel the full brightness of the sun in my heart and in my life The possibilities before me are vast and most are unknown to me. My former life's possibilities looks monochrome by comparison. PR doesn't give a rats arse about any premie, but that doesn't matter as much any more - we care for ourselves now and for each other so we don't need him. Isn't that what he was trying to prevent all along? For this I will celebrate victory.
|
|
|
|
My house has a ground floor flat and that is how I support myself - by renting it out.
Technically that should work out fine, practically, it does not, because that means you have to have a tenant and well yes you guessed. There are so many of these narcissistic types around. From 'please will he leave soon' with the first tenant, I have gone to 'dear Lord, deliver me from all evil' with the second.
And I have had to turn to my solicitor to deliver me. I feel like hugging her.
I was too casual in my approach to finding a tenant. Naive to the dangers, I just accepted the first person. I took him at face value and I ignored the thing that bothered me about him as not my concern (he had written a self help book and sounded a bit like a guru).
Then when he arrived and didn't come up with the full bond I took pity on him. Even tho he tried to convince me I was misremembering and the amount he wanted to pay was the right amount, not the one I was asking for. He literally tapped his chest and said he might have a heart attack and when he talked about not being able to afford it, I took pity on him - what an idiot, right. It was the thin end of the wedge.
I look back tho and really, I just acted true to my type, and as normal I am learning from this experience. I won't do that again.
Once this tenant leaves, I will wait however long it takes for a good tenant to come along.
|
|
|
|
Lesley i know what you mean, theres a lot of it about. I come across them all the time. They accuse me now of being hard, a bad person etc. In fact I am being a realist. The latest one was my son's step brother who ingratiated himself upon me to let him stay as he had a job in town and no way to get home at night. At first it was for a few days as work was going to put him up, but without mention or asking and by avoiding me it turned into weeks. Presumably because the hotel where he was working was going to charge him a bit for the room. He was meant to be saving for a car. Two months went by. I saw him chugging back a beer at 10;30 am one morning. He brought two back packer girls home one night and a few days later I discovered the light bulb missing from that room. They had used it for smoking crack according to those in the know. I had many stern words with him and he was always extremely repentant and putting on that face of trying to get his act together, but after too much time I kicked him out, realising that the car would never be saved for as he spent all his money on booze and drugs. In the end he lost his job. An entirely undesirable character with huge problems I am not qualified to deal with. Not to mention I don't want to even if I were. The 2 examples I gave were just the tip of the iceberg, there were daily annoyances of crossing lines all over the place some of them unrepeatable and I was always there being mrs responsible and trying to steer him in the right direction. As usual with these types you're great when you're doing what they want and an utter pain and downright mean when you don't. These days I see through the manipulations and after a few 2nd chances i am more than happy to put the boot in if need be. Another local character who ended up kipping here the night caused a fist fight with his friend who was with him and when I told him in the morning that he wasn't welcome here anymore, as in ever again, he launched into a tirade of abuse and pseudo analysis of me that was somehow meant to make me change my mind. In the end he persuaded me to let him borrow my bike for 2 hours. a week later I saw him in town and asked him where my bike was. He had given it to another friend apparently. I cursed him and told him to get his friend to bring it back pronto. It did arrive in my driveway without any notice. The son's step brother has now taken that bike and apparently sold it for a joint to someone else. I'm still waiting for that to be returned. It's yes yes yes but the actions are no no no. There is a great divide between the takers and the givers in this world. Those habits of giving are hard to break but I'm getting a whole lot better at saying HELL NO. If they had any inkling what it looks like when I FINALLY blow my top they might think twice, however I see that they are so used to taking everyone for granted that it never occurs to them
|
|
|
|
that doesn't sound like much fun, Suzy. How did you end up giving him your bicycle after you had told him to get lost. hmm. Probably seemed like the quickest way to get him to leave.
The old fashioned saying is that there has to be give and take in a relationship. And I guess we are primed to give, manipulated into continuing and then it's only when you need to take you discover it's a one way street, and has been all along.
I remember as a premie doing service out in the paddocks of Amaroo, like many of us I had this idea that we would function well as a group if we all did what we wanted. and it worked in small groups.
Ha ha, it seems laughable now tho I still believe it, ha ha ha. I do, I really do. If everyone were like me it would work!
But the penny has dropped. We are not one in the spirit, let alone one in the Lord. It's not just skin deep, people are very different.
I can't stand the women who want to tell you what to do all the time. Really the idea of functioning as a group if you let people just do as they will and don't try and tell them what to do is not just a religious one - we all tend to like that, it feels respectful of our being - it's the same at the bridge club as it was in the cult, those of us who don't want to be told what to do band together happily and then there are those who want to be the ones to tell you what to do - not that they want to be told what to do either - they do their hen-pecking thing.
I just think it's so interesting - manipulators, hen peckers, all of it, it's not like we don't all do all of it but the results are so polar opposite dependent on the nature of the person - are they nice or nasty. I know there are a 100 shades of nice and a 100 shades of nasty but I think I still believe in a split.
nice people go to heaven nasty people go to hell. so yes no matter how horrible they are to you you feel compassion but that doesn't mean you have to be sympathetic. They'll only use it against you.
|
|
|
|
yes the character with the half hour psuedo analysis aggression saw it wasn't working and then started a half hour poor me session which somehow involved getting somewhere on the bike, returned in 2 hours he reckoned, fastest way to get him gone absolutely. The not quite family member just took it. That has been for more than a month now. suffice to say I'm fucked off. The ex stalker , manipulator extraordinaire has sent about 6 emails since , each more ridiculous than the last and yes he got a raise out of me in the end, that magically clams him down because he needs to know he can control me. He is apparently in hospital for 'his depression' however there is no pill for being an arsehole narcissist. There is no getting around them just getting as far away as humanly possible
|
|
|
|
I notice the post titled Raja ji got twice as many reads as any others, just shows there are readers here who are cult insiders. Glad they can get truthful info somewhere, drip, drip
|
|
|
|
I thought it was possible the dept of Fair Trading would give my tenant a serve for misuse of their facility, his list of complaints are demonstrably false. instead I have to start a new notice to vacate of 90 days because I did 60 days to vacate with no grounds (must have been an old leaflet I read). 3 more months before I can apply for an eviction notice even. If I want to claim grounds it's only 14 days but it will take even longer to get a hearing - about 4 months. Unbelievable and there was I thinking they might assist me in getting him out sooner rather than later. I am spitting chips.
I have to detach. Hard to ignore in your own home, it's like having cockroaches. Only thing to do is do things that I enjoy so much I forget about him.
Went swimming in the rain yesterday it was magical, there was a channel of lighter sky right on the coast between two rain storms. An old friend picked me up and we went swimming at a spot where the surf was gentle enough for me to handle, stayed in for ages, the rain plonking into the water, just lovely and then a swim in the river where the tide had turned and the current had a strong pull, I sunk my heels into the sand and it could still drag me, .
|
|
|
|
you would think not coming up with the right amount of bond in the first place would be enough? I'm glad you are enjoying yourself in spite of the friction. I find voicing my truth calmly,as in this isn;t working for me because A,B and C. This is my property and I will not have someone compromising my own feeling of comfort and security in my home , full stop. and making sure they hear me over and over again if need be,makes them uncomfortable enough to find someone else to fool. Here's hoping he jumps ship before the time he's been given because you see through him. All power to ya! I have watched a few videos on you tube, some of them helpful about signs of a narc and stock phrases that disarm them. Interesting stuff and occasionally helpful.
|
|
|
|
yes you would think. oh well I've served the new notice now. and I am signed up for camp nano - a month of writing in April, so that will be good for keeping him edged out of my mind.
|
|
|
|
Thanks Bob, it means a lot to me that. Clarity was something he banged on about a lot but it was precious hard to find in the context of all the bullshit. It must have been pretty hellish and traumatic being 'trained' within an inch of one's life. Thanks for the posts about that , I have read them with fascination. Rule number one = maharaji ! ?very clever. Already we have the manipulating ambiguousness because it's just one word, in fact it's his title, so how can that even be a rule? Immediately all participants are on the back foot with the logic engaged trying to read between the lines and of course coming up with the understanding that he is god or at least the boss because, well - because he said so. Meanwhile the narrative in the background is 'damn my mind for not understanding without question'. Yeah, but it's a purposely befuddling rule. Because it's not even proper english is it? And now we are being asked to be 'impeccable' when the master cant even make rule number one into a sensible sentence.... argh. Knowledge was burdensome mentally and emotionally and spiritually and yes in the end impacted my nervous system and bodily health of course too. We were manipulated into putting someone with a moderate IQ and a limited education,naturally lazy and inclined towards instant gratification on a pedestal that he had built for himself (by us minions, or it wouldn't have been the same) that made him out to be a sort of genius jesus, talents galore apparently, master painter and poet, inventor and investor, magician extraordinaire and of course the saviour of our world. Sadly he has no talent apart from the natural wiliness of a full blown narcissist. The trainings sound like they were mind control techniques. I am deeply sorry you were put through that. Black and white thinking, impossible and unrelenting standards, these are symptoms he was happy to pass on, and yes it was not only desirable but necessary to be subjugated into imbalance for the liar to pull off the illusion. It is all as plain as day now.
|
|
|
|
Bob, to me the best sentence in this thread came from you The idiocy is when fear gets rationalized away by talking oneself into thinking it's love.
|
|
|
|
Comments here have me laughing and remembering stuff from the past.
I remember the former Raji Ji introducing us to the term "impeccable". At a DC cult members only meeting, he explained to us how his lil' Bro wanted everything to be perfect. He then proceeded to give us anecdotal evidence of how much the former Guru Maharaj Ji (now DBA Maharaji) loved us.
He then asked for $$$ or maybe it was Yoram who asked for money. (Keep in mind that there was lots of money available to the Dancin' Guru in both DC and the whole Northeast major cities)
Modified by DCcultmember at Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 19:37:47
|
|
|
|
I rarely have anything to say so I don't. Though I guess the fact that my actual years as a premie were 1975-1978/9 shows those years had a very intense effect... that I would be checking this board in my 50s-
I do appreciate the friendships I have made with ex premies. You have made me a more whole person being able to talk about the phenomenon. Also, so many of you are so smart, kind and good that it helped most of all with my tendency to feel shame about the cult years. Growing to respect so many here helped me to forgive myself.
JSCA- truth is it was a cult. Don't know how to say that in Hindi.
Susan
|
|
|
