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An old forum thread I have reposted at the end here the exchange with CPG is a good reminder of the events surrounding Jagdeo. Months after the other victim A asked her posts be removed, this poster CPG posted to say there was only ONE victim. Could this be someone involved wanting the success of getting that report off the site noted? Note, at the end, I agree, that it was a cult with a pedophile not a pedophile cult.
I no longer know what to think on that.
It wasn't the Children of God where it was part of the dogma, but it no longer looks like the one bad apple either, especially, given the excuse offered.
"No,it didn't and the reason why it didn't because in our
family, in our, in our whatever India was, it was very common. It was
not a, it was not a taboo thing"
Recall that Shana reached out to me in 2019 because she had read the following on EPO-
"Assistance:The women who were once the children of Divine Light Mission wish to thank everyone who has been so supportive of their telling the difficult truth about Mahatma Jagdeo. All these years later, to have the truth acknowledged, and to have people care, it is still very healing for those who were victimized both by this predator and by those who seek to cover up the fact that Jagdeo was reported, on at least two continents, in the 1970's and early eighties. Susan and 'A' especially wish to ask the help of anyone who may know more facts about this situation. They both know other victims of Jagdeo who do not wish to speak out and these wishes are respected. But anyone who knows anything about other incidents of abuse by Jagdeo or is aware of evidence to corroborate the fact that they reported this man in the 70's and 80's is encouraged to come forward. Of course, being ex premies, we know that the prospect of telling the truth about this is frightening. But as the years pass, if no one tells it, Jagdeo, and those that are willing to protect him in order to protect their "Master" stand a greater chance of never being held accountable for what happened to the children who were unfortunate enough to cross paths with Jagdeo. Please write epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk">epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk." https://www.ex-premie.org/pages/jagdeo.htm
"Webmaster's note:-
'A's story appeared here until May 2002. At that time, she requested that personal details of her story be removed from the site. Although she never confirmed it, the webmaster of this site believes this was a condition of a settlement she had reached with Elan Vital. It is also believed that another condition was the publication on Elan Vital's website of an invitation to other victims to come forward. This invitation (http://www.elanvital.org/policies.html) is so well hidden on their site, it is unlikely that any victim of Jagdeo would ever find it,"
https://www.ex-premie.org/pages/jagd_abuse.htm
Subject: Re: Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult
From: CPG
To: Joe
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 17:06:25 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
If true, the allegations against Jagdeo are reprehensible and deserve to be looked into. However, with only ONE victim coming forward out of the hundreds of thousands in contact with Jagdeo over the years, this sounds very difficult. How does one contact other victims if they don't come forward/. And lets make it clear there were no allegations of complicity by Maharaji in this alleged crime as reported by the one alleged victim. |
Subject: More than one victim.
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:23:49 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
There have been more than one victim who has come forward. I've been in contact with four of them personally, and have heard very disturbing reports of other victims. I've also spoken to an ex-national co-ordinator who told me that Jagdeo's crimes were discussed by small groups of honchos at conferences in the late 80s. And as a result of this, Jagdeo was eventually restricted to touring Asian communities in the Far East. What is your interest in this CPG? Anth Ginn. |
Subject: Re: More than one victim.
From: CPG
To: AJW
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:50:16 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Yeah, I spoke with four guys the other day who have been to Mars. But they won't come forward. Come forward means to publicly make your accusation, without hiding or passing messages through a third party. Anything else just isn't credible. Drawing conclusions on anything less is medieval. In the US one has the right to face their accusser. Would you like to be branded as something despicable based on rumor from unnamed sources/ Because of this approach this issue won't pass the snicker test to any independent thinker. |
Subject: Bollocks
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Wed, Jul 17, 2002 at 05:50:00 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
CPG, So what are you saying here CPG. Because their names are not published here it didn't happen? Or am I a liar? Or are they lying? Or maybe it did happen after all. Get you head out your arse CPG. The sun is shinning out here, in a world where paedophiles are condemned, not defended. Anth Ginn |
Subject: 'independent' thinker
From: Dermot
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 18:25:53 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
that's hilarious. I take it your thinking is completely 'independent' of your obesciance to Prem Pal, yeah? You're just this 'independent' totally 'un-biased' seeker of the facts .....nothing at all to do with an attempt to ensure your master is free from criticism. Of course not. Only people who criticise Prem Pal are warped aren't they? Not folks like you. Like if your daughter told you she'd been raped by someone ...how could you possibly believe her? ....after all she's just SPEAKING to you....she'd probablty think she'd been to MARS too ....silly girl. You'd need DNA evidence, a host of witnesses and film footage first wouldn't you? Especially in your good ole USA ....THE BASTION OF TRUTH , JUSTICE AND THE AMERICAN WAY.Well actually, only if your precious Prem Pal was remotely conected to the tragedy I suppose....I guess you'd give your daughter a break....sort of like, the benefit of the doubt......if anyone but Prem was at risk of falling off a pedestal. So, mr/mrs/ms 'Independent' thinker you've conceded there's been one victim and you know how devoted Jagdeo was to his M A S T E R ...YES? at least I know how devoted he was ....like a dog actually.....that's how devoted.... (I came across him a few times and even had an argument with him over some matter un-related to his raping escapade(s). So what does your fine 'independent' brain think Prem pal knew about Jagdeo? And how many years ago did he know it ......just this ONE victim that you agree on that is.....ahhhh I see this M A S T E R knew fuck all!!! Right.....all these people were informed including that other lapdog Charanand BUT the M A S T E R knew nothing.It's like a miracle aint it? Sort of defies all reason doesn't it? Kinda like your great US presidents. Nixon ....Reagan....ah how convenient......how/why should the top man know ANYTHING about NAYTHING untoward? Just like Prem never knew that Fakiranand was still on duty in Switzerland doing his Masters 'propagation', so soon after bludgeoning a mans head with a hammer. Now you have a problem here. Your MASTER was interviewed by the press on this occasion (yup there IS film footage of that ) and he's ON RECORD saying 'he'll deal with it!. Now between me and you...what do you reckon a good way of dealing with it would be? Turn the lunatic over to the American authorities OR send the lunatic to propagate in Switzerland, to mingle with Premies and non-Premies alike? Bear in mind that it's a FACT that Fakiranad was sent to Europe and his driver at the time (a very honest guy....whom I know personally) has the whole story and the leaflets advertising him ,dates etc. But it's PREM PAL we're talking of here so I guess you'll get round those unfortunate FACTS somehow. Independent thinker my ass. Fuck off with your bullshit. |
Subject: Re: 'independent' thinker
From: CPG
To: Dermot
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 09:28:06 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Excuse me please for disturbing you, for letting a stream of light and truth enter your dark and dank little burrow. I know you were all comfy in there wallowing in your own shit, so I'll just let you get back to your anger and misery, you sarcastic, sad little wretch. Maybe someone else will will pick up the thread with the guy with the hammer, 30 years ago for gods sake. Get a life, then try enjoying it, its nice. |
Subject: Go rot
From: Dermot
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 12:25:54 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
away with your amoral, greedy, greaseball, master ...sycophant. My life BEGAN when I saw Rawat clearly....I pity you......almost. |
Subject: I was a litle over the top
From: Dermot
To: Dermot
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 13:45:46 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
with that 'go rot' post ....nevertheless you still annoy me with your supposed 'critical independence' when it's plain as night is day you're desperate to do a whitewash job. Easier to insult and leave than talk about Fakirand and Rawats role in that tragic crime AND his role in Jagdeos crimes too....it all mounts up and points to someone who puts his IMAGE before what is truly RIGHT. |
Subject: Oh but there is evidence of complicity...
From: Cynthia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 11, 2002 at 21:42:48 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
ONLY ONE VICTIM? How dare you say that! How many must there be? A. was seven, yes 7 years old when Jagdeo raped her and he didn't use his finger if you catch my drift. And even if he ''only'' used his finger, it is still an unimaginable heinous crime against an innocent child. Do YOU have any children? Know any? Just notice a seven year old girl next time you're around children and imagine a grown man raping a seven year old little girl. There is nothing worse that could happen in anyone's life, girl or boy. Where is your sense of decency? Where is your conscience? Educate yourself! There are people who have information that Maharji did indeed have knowledge of these rapes and other sexual abusive acts upon children of his premies. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. He knew it all and you just don't want to believe it because you're so in love with him. Well, I'm bursting your bubble, CPG. He knew everything and CHOSE not to do anything about it. He is and was too engrossed in himself to care. And guess what? He doesn't give a shit about YOU either! Wait until you realize that one. And you lurk here with no name, no evidence to the contrary, and say ONLY ONE VICTIM. Well, whoever you are, one victim is one too many. What's wrong with your mind? Have you been brainwashed? Do you believe Maharaji is above the law. He knew...he knew and he knew...and did NOTHING! Children were raped! Are you out of your mind? Children were raped! If you have evidence he didn't then prove it. Or contact him to have HIM prove it. You won't get an answer because he's a complete coward with no sense of morality or conscience. I plan on writing him a letter very soon about this matter because I've just about had it with you cult apologists who care more about a fat-ass guru than little kids who were abused at the hands and genitals of that maniac, Jagdeo, Maharaji's agent, employee and close associate. Tell me, why was Jagdeo guarded after these allegations came out during the time they happened? You have some nerve minimizing the rape of a 7 year old little girl for the sake of a no-good, creep of a cowardly man (if you want to stretch the definition of 'man') who you worship, namely, Guru Maharaj Ji, a/ka/ Prem Pal Singh Rawat, Malibu, California, among many other palaces (which we paid and slaved for). Fuck you very much. Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA -- who are you? |
Subject: Re: Oh but there is evidence of complicity...
From: CPG
To: Cynthia
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 08:13:42 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Here we go again with the profanity, and opinions and anger presented as facts. Name any other victim please than the ONE who has come forward. Remember, 'A', the second alleged victim withdrew her account and all asked all material related to her be withdrawn from EPO. I am concerned about this issue too; i looked into it quite a bit a few months ago and after reading all of the material could not find the name of more than ONE alleged victim. So lets be clear about this and not blow angry smoke to try and cover it up OK/ It doesn't fool anybody. |
Subject: Like I said CPG
From: AJW
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:28:14 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Like I said CPG, I have spoken personally, face to face, to four victims of Jagdeo. I have no intention of publishing their names here. But as you seem to have an active interest in the matter, maybe you could ask your premie pals about a meeting that supposedly took place in Miami, around the late 80s, early 90s, to discuss what to do after Jagdeo had sexually assaulted the child of an Indian instructor. Somebody told me Maria Isabella was at the meeting. I'd like to know more about this. Anth Ginn |
Subject: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: Reprise from John MacGregor
To: AJW
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 11:17:53 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. |
Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: AJW
To: Reprise from John MacGregor
Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:06:47 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Thanks for that informative post John. Everything you say corresponds to what other, unrelated accounts have told us about jagdeo and the big cult cover-up. Glen knew about what was going on at least four years ago, because I wrote and told him. They were personal letters, so I never published his replies. Then in November 98 I published my 'journey' on EPO, and he contacted me about he allegations officially. The letters are on EPO somewhere. Take care Anth the jigsaw |
Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Pedophilia and Maharaji
From: CPG
To: Reprise from John MacGregor
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 12:19:27 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
One guys completely unsubstantiated opinion. One guy I don't know from the guy who keeps emailing me get rich quick schemes. A guy who apparently had no personal knowledge of the crimes or M's knowledge of them. He talks about others having had to know. Internet story telling. Just the facts maam. Only there dont seem to be any. Only fifth hand stories and opinions from people who obviously despise Maharaji. What a joke. |
Subject: you are seeing only what you want to see
From: Susan
To: CPG
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:56:38 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Listen, it is HELL to come forward and tell the truth about this and get called a liar about one of the most painful things that ever happened to you. Both A. ( who has not said it didn't happened, just asked to have it off the web ) and myself know of other victims. The one I know has no intention of ever coming forward. We have discussed it. But what Jagdeo did to her was truly horrible. As I have said before his line was 'your clothes are your MIND, take off your clothes' do you think a 12 year old faithful, very believing young premie girl can deal with that without extreme pain forever? We who know of other victims owe more to those who do not want to come forward. Why would they , to be attacked? I know of at least 4 girls in seventies Miami who were molested or attempted to be molested by Jagdeo. I did report it, twice, but of course as we all know, no one I reported it to recalls. This is the truth. I am sick of it. I have done enough. I have said before I have no intention of suing anyone as I got away from that MONSTER before he could do much. But he did A LOT worse to his younger victims. IF you think they aren't out there you have huge blinders on. I also know EV knows of some of the other victims, maybe there are confidentiality agreements or maybe their parents are premies still or maybe people who it was reported to don't see fit to come on this board and report it. But that is the truth. Jagdeo was a MONSTER. Also, why would EV be suing him in India and saying he is a pedophile and then denying the truth of what A. and I say in the same press release. ( Like yes he is a molester but those two are wrong?) Anyone who reads that should get a grip. My biggest regret is I reproted Jagdeo to initiators instead of the police. But of course I would never have done that then, I trusted Guru Maharaj Ji and knew he would stop him. I was a 15 year old who believed at the time with all my heart. |
Subject: Hi Susan.
From: AJW
To: Susan
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:34:01 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Hi Susan, It's disgusting the way these creeps from the cult are constantly protecting Rawat's paedophile pal, and trying to discredit his victims. What a sorry mess of misguided, mindless, morons they are. Hope all is well with you and yours. Anth the nusiance. |
Subject: Re: you are seeing only what you want to see
From: cpg
To: Susan
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 12:51:52 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
I never called Susan or A a liar; personally I believe Susan and have to agree there were PROBABLY more victims. What I am responding to is the way others in this thread and elsewhere on here take there anger against M and convert it to 'facts' in this case. The fact is- there is only one victim willing to come forward. This makes it no less a horrible crime for this and any other victims, but to extrapolate from this a whole culture of pedophilia is pure fantasy. I have yet to read any evidence of complicity either. |
Subject: To CPG on Jagdeo, Maharaji and moral corruption
From: Livia
To: cpg
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 07:14:43 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Look CPG, I was a premie when I first heard about Jagdeo's paeodophilia. I read that he had abused several premie children, and knew for a fact that nothing official had ever been said about it, as I would have heard, being on the mailing list and having received every official communication for decades. My immediate feeling was an 'oh no' as simple common sense told me that if the information is out there on the internet, Maharaji must also know about it. So my first feeling was, if Maharaji knew about it before me (it had been on the internet for at least a couple of years before I read it) why had nothing been announced about it? Surely, if Maharaji was a genuine teacher with good ethical standards, the first thing he would do would be to send a letter to all the premies saying that these terrible facts had come to light. He would then announce that Jagdeo had been reported to the police, stripped of his instructor status and dealt with appropriately. He would also request all victims to come forward so they could be apologised to and compensated in some way. It doesn't matter how you look at it, CPG, anything less than that is totally unacceptable. Maharaji, as Jagdo's master, is absolutely not in a position where he can abnegate responsibility for Jagdeo's actions. That does not make him guilty of paedophilia himself - obviously not. But as Jagdeo's master the onus is most certainly on him to deal with the situation. If all this hadn't come to light, I would probably still be a practising premie. It was after finding out about Jagdeo and realising that Maharaji hadn't acted appropriately, that I began to doubt him. I never had a moment's doubt before that. And any premie who hears about Jagdeo and Maharaji's lack of appropriate action needs to look seriously at their own conscience, or lack of it. If they feel Maharaji has done nothing to cause them to doubt him, then they have lost their own essential moral and ethical sense. Their belief in him has superceded it, leaving them in a moral quagmire where anything goes - if Maharaji does it. I came to my senses at that point and for the first time began to see Maharaji as he really must be - a deeply flawed person whose own moral sense is seriously lacking. His desire to maintain his apparent credibility and 'keep up appearances' has overtaken any compulsion to 'do the right thing'. And what kind of person does that then make him? Not, absolutely not what we all thought he was, period. And you, CPG, just can't see it, because you have been too corrupted. And quite frankly I find that scary. Livia |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: CPG
To: Livia
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:18:00 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Tunnel vision ...take off the blinders, baby. You are so immeshed in your own view you can't see the illogic of it. You totally agree with 'Us' or you are a scary demented person. Maharaji is a god in a bod, the perfect being; anything less and he is scum. The world ain't black and white, there are many shades of grey, and these absolute and extreme conclusions based on inuendo and rumor are infantile. |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: The Falcon
To: CPG
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 19, 2002 at 09:54:25 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
please stop! the facts, that's facts, are this (and well documented) Jagdeo raped and indecently assaulted young girls throughout his tenure as the representative of Maharaji in the West (and wherever else. Maharaji was told, did nothing and said nothing to avoid compensation claims (in my opinion). How you can come here against the agya of your guru and attempt to deny, revise and question this is appalling! It takes a lot to rile me but you have succeeded. Little comfort to your conscience, however. Get a life (of your own) and have some consideration and compassion for the victims of this monster mahatma of your guru. Where is your fucking heart, premie with emotions in suspension!!!??? |
Subject: Re: To CPG
From: Livia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 15:24:09 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Look, CPG, your total inability or downright refusal even to contemplate that there may have been a cover-up speaks volumes. Rational, discriminating, thinking and aware people generally sense when it's the right time to smell a rat. Irrational, non-discriminating, unclear and unaware people tend to miss the truth of a situation. This is because for one reason or another they have lost the reason, discrimination, clarity and awareness they were presumably born with. Membership of a cult has a tendency to remove one's reason, discrimination, clarity of thought and awareness. One may join a cult in all good faith, unable to see the fact that one is joining a cult. One may even join a cult without knowing it's a cult, in the sincere hope of increasing one's awareness. Sadly however, years of cult membership tend have the opposite effect, replacing awareness with a sort of fundamentalism. This fundamentalism can even pose as 'increased awareness' but it's fundamentalism alright. It just doesn't feel like it when you're in the middle of it. One of the attributes of fundamentalism is the inability to see the possibility of any fault in one's chosen leader. In this way, Moonies have total faith in Sun Myung Moon, the Rajneeshis had total faith in Bhagwan and Sai Baba devotees have total faith in Sai Baba. Moon has links with far-right organisations, Bhagwan oversaw a murder and used his devotees for his own sexual pleasures and Sai Baba has sexually abused young boys and men for decades. Thousands upon thousands of devotees of all three of the above had total faith in their masters, even after finding out what had been going on. Some of these devotees are seeing the light and realising that their masters were charlatans. Others can't see it and cling to the belief that their master is/was perfect. I have a Sai Baba devotee friend who just cannot believe the abuse allegations around her master; her fundamentalist need to believe is too strong. I also know premies who have heard all the allegations about Maharaji and just cannot believe them; their fundamentalist need to believe in him is too strong. What would you say to my Sai Baba devotee friend? I'm serious - read the Sai Baba ex site, and then please get back to me. Do you think the allegations could be true? If you were a Sai Baba devotee do you think that you, like her, might have difficulty believing the allegations and may try to look for rationalisations and explanations, as she does? If you go to Google and type in 'ex sai baba', a site will come up 'for concerned ex followers of Sai Baba'. I'd be genuinely interested to know what you think. Livia |
Subject: ex premie logic primer-
From: CPG
To: Livia
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 18:46:26 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
EX PREMIE LOGIC PRIMER - everyone must agree completely with the ex party line as enunciated on EPO and this forum - anyone who doesn't agree or questions any aspect of the party line has been brainwashed by The Cult- not the ex-cult, the non-ex-cult. This is a very safe belief system for the persons emplying it; I have seen it employed by many. Eg, I have seen alcoholics use this system- if you drink you are an alcoholic; if you don't agree with me you are in denial. Either way you are in their view an alcoholic, there is no question that their belief system is intact and correct, the only question is whether the person in question is too messed up to see your truth. Talk about a cult. This is a very dangerous belief system and is by definition FASCIST. -look it up if you don't agree with me. Livia, I appreciate your concern but in fact I have looked through all of this stuff extensively because I want to know about my teacher. I have stated my conclusions here; no one was interested because while I accept some of the things said here I don't all. With my belief system and experience of K I can accept M as my teacher even with minor faults. I have seen no evidence or even decent circumstantial evidence of anything more than this. I object to people on this forum mistating others experiences or observations, quoting completely unsubstantiated rumors as fact, and , as in this case, expanding one alleged incident into a culture of pedophilia and a cover up. The cover up is only wishful thinking on the part of those who wish M harm. There is absolutely no evidence of this. ' He had to know' doesn't count. Susan telling someone to tell him 25 years ago doesn't cut it for me. There are far more benign explainations than otherwise, all just as viable. If the purpose of this forum is to enlighten others, meaning with the truth, everyone will be better served by sticking to the facts and claiming your opinions or hopes as just that, not as reality. |
Subject: Re: ex premie logic primer-
From: Livia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Mon, Jul 15, 2002 at 08:45:40 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
look CPG, you're still clinging to your abject refusal to entertain the idea that a, there has been a cover-up, and b, you are in a cult. Calling doubters a cult is sublimely ridiculous. Would you call former communists or former born-again Christians who no longer subscribe to their earlier belief a cult? I have a friend who used to be a Jehovah's Witness and is now dealing with very similar issues to ex-premies. All these people are EX CULT MEMBERS, geddit?!! Being an ex cult member and communicating with other ex cult members doesn't make you a member of a cult!!! It's a temporary phase of deconstructiing with the help of others who are going through the same thing, before freeing oneself and moving on. And cults have leaders, by the way. And another thing, you completely ignored my suggestion that you look at the ex Sai Baba site and come back to comment. This would take you five minutes of your time. I asked you to look at the site and comment, as an outside observer, on the allegations of these Sai Baba devotees, who seem disillusioned in the extreme. Well? Livia |
Subject: Flawed Logic and Convoluted Thoughts...
From: Cynthia
To: CPG
Date Posted: Sun, Jul 14, 2002 at 20:49:09 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
CPG Your post above makes no sense. Especially your attempt at using alcoholism as an analogy. Alcoholism is a disease. You also speak in absolutes. For instance, ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' with the party line. How would you know about ''everybody?'' Impossible. If ''everybody'' must agree ''completely'' there again you are claiming some special or magical way of having information about all ex-premies (who post here, anyway). I think you're projecting because it's my experience here that many of us disagree with eachother on various issues. I wonder about the evolution by premies flinging back their (your) cultist thought proceses by calling us a cult. It's an interesting 'back in your face' turn of events and is absurd. You can't think clearly or see Maharaji objectively because you've given up your freedom of thought to Rawat. You can't see that you've done this because you already gave it up...you're programmed, locked in, brainwashed, call it what you want, but you're in over your head. Look, when it comes around to child abuse, especially child sexual abuse, I won't stop talking until all child abuse ends. Someone over at LG criticized my first post to you about victim A. Being a survivor of horrific child abuse, I can tell you this: if you've never been sexually abused as a child, it's almost impossible to know what the experience is throughout one's life. It is a wounding of a child that is life damaging. The only way out of it is to strive to heal, whichever way works, but usually it takes years and years of therapy. Furthermore, having worked very closely with Maharaji for an extended period of time, a year, I know that not much happens around him that he doesn't know about or have control over. He's a control freak. He micro-manages. And he has lousy personality. He may be great on stage to you, but behind the scenes, he quite a piece of nasty work. Don't tell me about child abuse until you've walked a day in my shoes. If you continue to be abusive to Livia or anyone else here I'm going to ask that you be blocked. Maybe you need to stop meditating for a few months, not listen to Rawat's videos, get out of touch and see how much better you feel. Then come back and argue that we are the cult. I won't even bother to address your comment that ex-premies are fascists because by saying that you reveal you don't know what fascism is. Look it up. |
Subject: Smell the coffee cpg.
From: AJW
To: cpg
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 02:38:48 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
cpg, I've spoken to four victims. Ihere is a report of a mahatmas child being abused by him. There are reports that he had special sessions with young children, in darkened rooms at Unity School in Denver and Wringford in England. An ex-national co-ordinator told me his tours were retricted because of reports of his paedophilia. Wherever Jagdeo went, it seems there was a culture of child abuse. It was reported to Gurucharanand, Randy Proudy, and Judy Osbourne. There were all full time officials in the cult at the time. Nothing was done about it because Jagdeo is a big pal of Rawat, the ver imperfect master. Grow up cpg. Anth Ginn. |
Subject: Who do you see....
From: PatD
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 20:05:04 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
...when you stand & clap the speaker? Then sit & listen to his words of wisdom that you can't remember 5 mins. afterwards. 'Wow,that was great'....'Yeahh right,just the same,it's amazing,he's saying the same thing he's always said'...'Did you hear him say so & so'....'No,missed that one,must've nodded off at that point'....'I know a great Chinese restaurant just round the corner'....'it's amazing to see all these people I haven't seen for ages'.....'who is this guy'...dunno.....'stopped thinking about that'....'do you still meditate'....'I know what you mean,got to get it together'...'I remember when blah blah'....'do you reckon he'll dance again'....'who're those fuckers in the front row seats... 'he's trying to change all that'....'he's the man though isn't he'....'yeah fantastic,let's get a drink'...'nice to see you again'... 21st century satsang,nice & easy. That's not at all the vibe that the greater than god built his wealth on & you know it. The children who were abused by Jagdeo were given into his care by parents who believed that a realised soul,appointed such by the Lord of the Universe,were on the road to bliss & god consciousness under his(mahatma...great soul) guidance. So that turned out to be the wrong way to look at things did it? ...'yeah,the closer you get to the sun the more you get burned'...'those that were 1st shall be last'...'she's got a really good job now & can get to all the events'...'I don't know what to make of him ,but it's nice to see you again'... FUCK YOU cpg, & all your friends. |
Subject: Of course people are angry at Rawat
From: gerry
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 15:09:50 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Complicity lies in the disputed fact that Rawat was told early on about Jagdeo's uh, predilictions, and Prem chose to look the other way while continuing to send Jagdeo out on 'missions.' You know what, pal? It would not take much, just some time and dedication, to track down Jagdeo's victims. Rawat has the resources to do so and he certainly could be doing a whole lot more to reach out to victims. But I know that's expecting way too much of him as a man. Think about this: if Rawat DIDN'T know about Jagdeo, then he would be doing something about it, if he were an honorable and accountable adult. The facts are looking like he was told by at least two different sources. Probably more and I'd guess they had a lot of discussion about it. But if Rawat did know about Jagdeo and did nothing but shift Jagdeo around, than that's even worse. Either way, Rawat is fucked on this deal and it's his own fault that he's in this predicament. |
Subject: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia
From: Susan
To: cpg
Date Posted: Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 13:30:11 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
I have not seen anyone say that. In fact, the Hare Khrishna's HAD a culture of pedophilia, where children were sent to GuruKula's ( boarding schools) and tortured. It was my belief when I was a premie that Maharaj Ji cared about children, thus I reported it to him. But without the people I reported it to to back me up, I can't prove anything. There are a few people I told who remember my telling THEM that I had told the two initiators. But the initiators themselves do not remember, or claim not to remember, my telling them. This would not make Rawat 'complicit' until he did not remove Jagdeo from duties, I cannot even imagine Rawat reporting Jagdeo to the police as should have been done. It simply was not 'our' culture at the time. We believed Rawat was the Lord of the Universe, who would be a higher authority to report it to than him. Thus that is who I attempted to report it to, and I still believe got the message. Because of the response of him being glad it was not a new report. I believe Rawat did do something about Rawat, but perhaps he ( like most of people in the seventies and eighties ) thought he could discipline Jagdeo out of it. But that is pure speculation. It is so like the Catholic Church. I am angry too at the Cardinals who protected themselves and their reputations rather than protecting kids. That is complicit, and that is the way he is I believe complicit, how he responded, once he knew. I am not saying he approved. I am saying I think he knew, did something too little, and thought he had taken care of the problem. The culture of the time is complicit too, as we all believed with Rawat's full endorsement he was Lord of the Univierse. He didn't tell us the words to arti were not literal, he did tell us Guru is greater than God, no matter what all the revisionists say , lots of us, myself included, really believed in him, and that he cared, and that he was the Perfect master, or the Messiah of our time. And we all know his satsangs encouraged this. At the time, any quote of his was He said, not he said..... His being LOTU has a lot to do with it being brushed under the carpet for so long. I am sure he did not approve of Jagdeo being a pedophile. I just think he was too cowardly, ignorant or into protecting his own reputation to do anything about it. By the way, thank you for believing me. Every word is the truth. |
Subject: Re: It wasn't a culture of pedophilia
From: CPG
To: Susan
Date Posted: Sat, Jul 13, 2002 at 15:42:59 (PDT)
Email Address: Not Provided
Message:
Now that is a clear, rational message. Others have extrapolated far more from your report. 'Pedophilia in the Maharaji Cult' implies to me a widespread problem or cultural acceptance of it, and others have posted those sentiments here as well, stating rumor as fact. As the only victim to come forward, if I were you I would correct them to maintain the integrity of your story. There are many possible scenarios fo M being told or not. Some make him a scumbag, some make him innocent, and most lie in between. Would you imprison a cardinal and dismantle the Catholic Church if he had heard 3rd hand of one incident 25 yrs ago, unverified, had not heard directly from the victim, and didn't follow up as conventional wisdom about pedophiles would dictate in todays world/ Me, I would say in a perfect world he should have handled it differently, but in light of medical thought of pedophilia at the time I wouldn't condemn him for it. On the other hand, these cardinals who knew priests were raping kids, because they came forward directly and severally, then sent the priest out to be near kids again, I would throw them in prison. The point is there is no evidence or even suggestion that anything remotely like this was the case with maharaji, yet many on this forum state that just that is the fact. Those who state this demolish their own credibility and integrity by doing so. |
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